Since this was a good conversation....

[275RLTW]

Interesting material. please read (I know, it's a bit lengthy) and post response, concerns, etc..(only if you can be civil about it)

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

[theGinsue]

You were definitely right about it being a LONG read.

I like how the writer didn't directly bash any caliber or come out and say caliber X sucks but caliber Y is the cat's meow. In his long-winded way, he simply stated "this is what I've seen work best and this is what I've seen requires multiple shots".

Good read.

[275RLTW]

Agreed. I think his approach and tone are very appealing to this subject and help with discussion. I, on the other hand, am not as soothing with my words. Great deal of info there.

[Troublco]

Long read is right, but good info. I've always subscribed to the slow/heavy bullet school of thought, and the shotgun recommendation too. I've also heard that .45 ACP Wadcutters worked well in the self-defense role, and after reading this it makes sense why.

I agree with Ginsue, it was a very well worded piece.

[Irving]

So I've started reading this and I'm immediately confused. This guy keeps saying that he prefers the slow and heavy of .45 over anything else (notably light and fast), but repeatedly contradicts himself by saying that the BEST he's seen is from the 125 gr .357. What is the deal here? I'm only in the first 1/8 or so, but wondering if anyone else noticed that.


Also, can we get a mod to move this to the ammo and ballistics forum so it is easier to find when you search for it? Good post so far.

[cowboykjohnson]

Have read it before. Multiple... problems with the facts in the article, when discussed prior (I forgot where) and some actual forensics experts weighed in it made me doubt the factuality of the entire article, as if I didn't already. IE: Is the guy who he says he is or is he a biased keyboard commando. If he even works at a morgue at all, there is some definite exaggeration and bias supplied through the entire article at minimum, as well as extreme "stretching" the truth.

In my opinion: He's one of the guys that hangs out in the towns most popular gun stores that when a customer asks for anything in 9mm, he goes on an "expert" rant about how 9mm can't hurt anything, he's seen people get shot in the face with a clip while in nam' with a 9mm and hardly did so little damage he could patch it with cigarette paper and spit, but his favorite handgun in his collection of three pistols just happens to be the best combination of a self defense weapon for anybody, their grandmother, and their dog that you could possibly ever have, why, it's his 357 magnum, its superior to every other caliber for one reason or another. You all know the type.

Science and facts directly contradict a majority of the elements in this writeup. If you ask me, don't give it any more weight than you would the "expert" ranting of the guy at the gun shop counter. I prefer to trust my life to true science. Now, before everyone jumps on me - there is some logic in it, but an article written on 87% bias and 13% logic is still just some guys B.S. opinion.
+1

[275RLTW]

If the problem seems not with the information but rather the credibility of the person posting the info, why listen to the rebuttal of a web designer or a tile setter, or any other person for that matter? If his experience, of which I have no reason to doubt thus far, has led him to certain conclusions, then I can either accept them as legitimate or prove otherwise. Yes, he does favor his .357; we all favor one caliber or another. He does claim that these are just his observations and is putting them out there for others to read. I don't think that any of us care what his conclusions are, we all have our minds set already based upon our experiences and preferences (so it seems). So, the question is: how do you trust ANYTHING said by anyone on the internet? Every article by anyone has people on the sidelines to trash their reputation and everything they have said.
Thoughts?

[Daniel_187]

If 9mm wont hurt ask him to told the target for you whlie you pop off a few 9mm's

[cowboykjohnson]

"I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table. "

Sounds like they are highly effective to me.

"The .357 is gloriously effective. It's just that semi-autos are much more common than they used to be, so we see far more 9mm and .380 rounds on the autopsy table than we do the .38 and .357. Particularly among the gangbangers, the 9mm and .380 are the weapons of choice. The .357 is a wonderfully effective round for self-defense from what I've seen, but it's rare that we get them in anymore. "

apparently I'm a gang banger.

Your supposed to fire untill the threat is eliminated, not shoot him once and hope he dies anyway. Plus when drugs are involved you could should him several times with a .44 mag and there is a possibilty that the BG can continue to fight.

anything can skip off bone, 9mm, .45, or 30-06... ive seen it with big and small game

Don't get me wrong it sounds like there is some good information you can take from this but he comes off as really biased.
He also loves the .45 but .357 is sooooo much better!

BTW I do set tile through my side buisiness and I get jobs from evidence of my work, pictures and references of previous customers not my own sales pitch.

[275RLTW]

I do not think that he is saying that 9mm or .380 is ineffective, just not as effective at other calibers. With poor logic, we could easily say that since an elk has been killed with at .22 lr, that it should be used for hunting them. Now, don't misconstrue this, I am not saying that 9mm is ineffective either (I carry one sometimes), rather I agree that larger bullets with more kinetic energy are more efficient. Don't make false assumptions in that all who carry 9mm are gangbangers. Read it for what it's worth.

[Fentonite]

... rather I agree that larger bullets with more kinetic energy are more efficient.

Remember basic physics.... Kinetic energy is: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/4/1/4/4140f53f66a68e92afec2389ba289e25.png
(1/2 Mass) multiplied by (Velocity Squared)

Mathematically, a Speer 100gr 9mm JHPtravelling at 1350fps has more energy than a Remington 185gr .45ACP JHP travelling at 950fps. Velocity is much more important than bullet weight when determining energy.

While the article has some interesting stories, it is hardly scientific. All data was obtained in a morgue, seeing only the fatalities. If the author were to evaluate a pharmaceutical study in which a million patients were healed, and one died, he would apparently find the drug to be deadly. The article was entertainment at best.

No offense anybody - I'm not calling names and don't want anyone's feeling to get hurt. [Beer]