Open Carry Question

[iamhunter]

What exactly is the definition of "in plain site" when it comes to open carry?

What if I'm wearing a shirt or sweater that covers, say, part of the pistol grip while wearing pistol on the hip?

(Not that I want to cover it, i'm just concerned that while walking around, my shirt could fall over part of the pistol)

Just curious if anyone has definitive knowledge on the point at which a weapon can legally be considered "concealed"

[Irving]

I think you need to be careful not to have your shirt cover it. What is the difference between your shirt falling over it, and covering it with a suit jacket?

[BigBear]

If ANYTHING is covered... it is considered concealed. If your shirt blows in the wind and it gets stuck on the holster covering an inch of the grip... it's considered concealed and you must possess a liscense to carry...

[iamhunter]

So I suppose the only solid solution would be a thigh-rigged combat holster?

I find it fairly ridiculous that if 90% of the gun is visible, that it could still be considered concealed.

but the law is the law.

[cowboykjohnson]

Thigh rig would be a good option, or a tucked in shirt with a hip holster.

[Irving]

I'd like to open carry with an inside the waist band holster, but I can't.

I've open carried once with an outside the waistband holster and my shirt and jacket weren't low enough to cover the gun.

[TFOGGER]

Legal definition per Wheatridge Municipal Code:


Concealment means the deliberate hiding of a weapon upon or near the person with the intent to avoid the lawful detection thereof. It shall be evidence of concealment that the weapon is hidden so as to make it immediately available for use in the fashion in which the weapon is designed to be used.

Different cities have different definitions, so it depends on where you're carrying....

[BigBear]

Best thing to do if you don't have a liscense is just tuck in your shirt and wear an OWB.

[BadShot]

Another fair definition from years ago is that if a person in a normal state of mind can identify it as a firearm, it's in the open. So in conjunction with something like the Wheatridge definition, you most likely aren't going to get nailed if your shirt tails billow over your holster on a windy day.

[BigBear]

Another fair definition from years ago is that if a person in a normal state of mind can identify it as a firearm, it's in the open. So in conjunction with something like the Wheatridge definition, you most likely aren't going to get nailed if your shirt tails billow over your holster on a windy day.


Don't leave it to fate though. Cops can still bust you for concealment if you don't have the permit and they are in a bad mood.

[Irving]

So once you have a permit, then what is the definition of concealment? If you don't have a permit, it is because you are avoiding lawful detection, but if you carry the same way with a permit, then what is the concealment doing?

Poorly written IMO.

[TFOGGER]

So once you have a permit, then what is the definition of concealment? If you don't have a permit, it is because you are avoiding lawful detection, but if you carry the same way with a permit, then what is the concealment doing?

Poorly written IMO.

I should have included the ordinance as well as the definition:


Sec. 16-83. Carrying concealed deadly weapons. (a) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly carry a knife or firearm concealed on or about his person; provided, that this chapter shall not apply to persons in their own domiciles or places of business or on property owned or under their control at the time of the act of carrying, or to persons in private automobiles or other private means of conveyance who are carrying such a weapon for the lawful protection of their or another's person or property or for any other legal purpose.

(b) Nothing in this section shall apply to peace officers or members of the Armed Forces of the United States or Colorado National Guard acting in the lawful discharge of their duties.

(c) Nothing in this section shall apply to persons who possess a valid permit or license to conceal such weapon or weapons, which license or permit was duly issued pursuant to applicable state or federal law.

[iamhunter]

It's not that I'm trying to buck the system. I just believe that if I want to carry a concealed weapon, that's my constitutional right. Not something that needs to be regulated.

Of course the law is the law and as long as things stay like they presently are, I will abide by those laws.

But on principal, I refuse to participate in a regulated activity which should not be regulated.

So open-carry is my only option. And I would like to take advantage of that right without looking like a total asshat with a thigh rig. Haha. I guess I'll have to delve into the Colorado Springs municipal code.... sheesh.

[Irving]

Glad they threw that in there. Obviously it shouldn't apply to license holder, but with wording like that, you are on shaky ground. Like if you some how forget your permit that day, now you are only concealing to avoid lawful detection.

[TFOGGER]

It's not that I'm trying to buck the system. I just believe that if I want to carry a concealed weapon, that's my constitutional right. Not something that needs to be regulated.

Of course the law is the law and as long as things stay like they presently are, I will abide by those laws.

But on principal, I refuse to participate in a regulated activity which should not be regulated.

So open-carry is my only option. And I would like to take advantage of that right without looking like a total asshat with a thigh rig. Haha. I guess I'll have to delve into the Colorado Springs municipal code.... sheesh.

For Colorado Springs:


9.7.102: UNLAWFUL CONCEALMENT: A.For purposes of this section, "conceal" shall mean placement of the dangerous or deadly weapon in question about the person, or within the person's immediate reach, in a manner as to be either completely hidden from view or partially hidden to an extent that another person making normal contact with the person cannot ascertain the true nature of the weapon.
B.It is unlawful for any person to wear under the person's clothes, or conceal about the person, or conceal in a motor vehicle within the person's immediate reach, any dangerous or deadly weapon. The exceptions to this prohibition are provided for in section 9.7.105 of this part. (1968 Code �8-14; Ord. 80-13; Ord. 94-67; Ord. 01-42)


This language is obviously out of date, as CRS 18-12-201 strips the cities of the ability to enforce most parts of section B.

[iamhunter]

For Colorado Springs:



This language is obviously out of date, as CRS 18-12-201 strips the cities of the ability to enforce most parts of section B.


Thanks for the reference. That seems to clear up all my questions!

[ryanek9freak]

I'd like to open carry with an inside the waist band holster, but I can't.

I've open carried once with an outside the waistband holster and my shirt and jacket weren't low enough to cover the gun.
I don't know how you guys can stand those things, and it would seem that you'd have to buy a bunch of new, bigger pants to acomodate the gun in your shorts.

I've tried them and find that no matter where I stick it, it's uncomfortable as hell.

All a moot point however, since I don't have a CCW. I OC everywhere I can legally do so. I refuse to be "permitted" to excercise a Constitutional right. Besides, OC is free.

[Irving]

I kept hearing that you'd need to buy all knew pants and I never did. Then I gained 20 lbs and now half of my pants and most of my nicer pants don't fit anymore. Time for more barefoot running on the treadmill for me!


Also, for me, IWB is more comfortable than having stuff in my pockets like keys and cell phone. It certainly CAN be uncomfortable if in the wrong spot. When you first start it certainly is noticeable, but you get used to it quickly.

[ryanek9freak]

Ponder this for a moment:

A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution... The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down... a person cannot be compelled 'to purchase, through a license fee or a license tax, the privilege freely granted by the constitution.' —MURDOCK V. PENNSYLVANIA 319 US 105 (1942)

[KevDen2005]

Just save yourself a lot of hassle and get a CCW. Even then if you choose to open carry and your shirt falls over it, you still have the permit.

[ryanek9freak]

And getting a CCW is NOT a hassle? I beg to differ...it's a violation of my civil rights to be fingerprinted to obtain one. If it weren't for that,and the fact that all the sherriff's depts here charge the maximum amount that they can by law, I'd consider it. But they don't, so I wont.

[KevDen2005]

And getting a CCW is NOT a hassle? I beg to differ...it's a violation of my civil rights to be fingerprinted to obtain one. If it weren't for that,and the fact that all the sherriff's depts here charge the maximum amount that they can by law, I'd consider it. But they don't, so I wont.


Well I would say it's a different kind of hassle, and whether we agree or disagree on the hassle of it or whether the state should or should not fingerprint is I think a completely moot point here. All I am saying is get a CCW, it's a 'shall issue state' and then you won't have to worry whether it is covered or not.

Or don't, I don't care either way. I have my CCW so I am not too concerned.

[sabot_round]

And getting a CCW is NOT a hassle? I beg to differ...it's a violation of my civil rights to be fingerprinted to obtain one. If it weren't for that,and the fact that all the sherriff's depts here charge the maximum amount that they can by law, I'd consider it. But they don't, so I wont.

Would you go through the same hassle to obtain a MG, can or SBR? It's the same principle!

[iamhunter]

Would you go through the same hassle to obtain a MG, can or SBR? It's the same principle!

That doesn't make it right.

[theGinsue]

It's not that I'm trying to buck the system. I just believe that if I want to carry a concealed weapon, that's my constitutional right. Not something that needs to be regulated.

Of course the law is the law and as long as things stay like they presently are, I will abide by those laws.

But on principal, I refuse to participate in a regulated activity which should not be regulated.

So open-carry is my only option. And I would like to take advantage of that right without looking like a total asshat with a thigh rig. Haha. I guess I'll have to delve into the Colorado Springs municipal code.... sheesh.

As a Colo Spr resident who was about to get tazed for asking a question (not in a hostile manner), knowing the municipal code and being in the right won't necessarily keep you from getting tazed or shot if the officer(s) opinion is that you are breaking the law. While your heirs might have a great wrongful death civil case, it won't make YOU feel any better.


I refuse to be "permitted" to excercise a Constitutional right. Besides, OC is free.


Ponder this for a moment:

A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution... The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down... a person cannot be compelled 'to purchase, through a license fee or a license tax, the privilege freely granted by the constitution.' —MURDOCK V. PENNSYLVANIA 319 US 105 (1942)


That doesn't make it right.

All good and valid points. Sadly, any sort of carry percieved by local, county, or state LE as concealed without a CCW will get you arrested {period}. I'm not saying it is right at all but we all know this is how it works. The whole part of "shall not be infringed" might as well never have been written into the Second Amendment as it is trampled daily; this is just another example.

Who, where, and when you can OC or Concealed Carry, and requiring a CCW, MG, Can or SBR permit/stamp all step on that specification. Many argue that these items and issues didn't exist back in the days of our founding fathers so there was no way they could have considered them when writing the Second Amendment. I respectfully disagree that such logic should be the defining issue as to how our Freedoms are allowed and applied. If you are a free person and have not been deemed a danger to society in any other way then your Rights should apply fully {period!}.

But again, this isn't how things actually work. If I had nothing to lose and the money to fight it, I'd consider taking up the legal battle behind all of this - with absolutely NO misconceptions that I might possibly come out the victor.

BigBear is right, get a CCW. Sure, you can OC, but what if (see OP for potential scenario)? Sure, it's a hassle and shouldn't be required but the hassle KevDen eludes to would be much worse. In the end you'll lose and could quite possibly lose your 2A rights completely in the process.

Just my $.02

[Irving]

If you carry concealed without a permit you will be arrested and your gun will be stolen by the police. I'm pretty sure that any CCW applications will be denied after that (like that matters) but I think you should still be able to buy a gun. I think you'd get denied your first time trying and would have to straighten it out, but I think you are still allowed to purchase.

[iamhunter]

I don't plan on carrying concealed.

Just plain ol' open carry.

I understand the logic behind getting a CCW, even for open carry, as a buffer between you and the strong hand of the law.

But if everyone just plays along, how is it going to get better?

Now if every time you went out, you saw dozens of people exercising their right to open carry, don't you think things would be a little different?

[Irving]

I'm just saying what will happen is all. There is really no reason anyone should know you are carry when carrying concealed. I only open carried once and was approached by an off duty. I don't think he noticed, but I think I scared the little boys working the counter at the Chipotle and they called their off duty friend over and asked him WTF I was doing.

[iamhunter]

I'm just saying what will happen is all. There is really no reason anyone should know you are carry when carrying concealed. I only open carried once and was approached by an off duty. I don't think he noticed, but I think I scared the little boys working the counter at the Chipotle and they called their off duty friend over and asked him WTF I was doing.

And that's exactly why more of us need to do it.

So people learn that it's not GUNS they need to be afraid of. But BAD PEOPLE.

I mean honestly, if a criminal walked in to rob a bank, and he saw 10 armed citizens standing in there.

What do you think he would do?

Turn around and walk right back out.

[sabot_round]

That doesn't make it right.

I'm not saying that is right. But considering the existing laws and the fact that we have to abide by them. If you want it, you gonna have to go through the hassle of getting it.

I reside in a state that does not allow open carry [Bang] and in order to protect myself, I had no choice, I had to get a CWL.

[BigBear]

As a Colo Spr resident who was about to get tazed for asking a question I hear a wonderful story coming on!!!


BigBear is right <--Why thank you!


Story time....[Coffee][Beer]


EDIT: for the record... I have been tazed (friend is a local cop, wanted to know what it was like, he let me sit in on a training class). I'm 6 ft, 320lbs of farmboy... I won't lie, tazing HURTS!!! HAHAHAHAHA. The saying "The bigger they are the harder they fall" is definitely true in this case, I was on the ground in about 4 seconds of trying to fight it. Once again, it hurt! HAHA.

[cowboykjohnson]

I would like to hear this as well[Beer]

[funkfool]

I have open carried a few times - just to 'get the feel' of it.
Never had any problem.
But again - the "IF" question comes up...
IF something were to happen...
That is why I don't regularly open carry. I have my CCW so... my gear is for concealed...
I do have OWB rigs and when necessary do open carry - but not usually to make a political statement, just out of necessity - and not in large gatherings of strangers...
To the grocerey store? Sure.
To the mall - nah.

[cowboykjohnson]

To the mall - nah.
Of course not, you can't be a mall ninja with a heater strapped on your hip.

[BigBear]

I try to make it a habit of never open carrying... I don't want to let the BG's know who to look out for. hehehe.

[Irving]

You know why no one tells stories about carrying concealed without a permit? Because they go like this.

"I carried my gun, no one saw, no said anything, I went home. The End."

[iamhunter]

I try to make it a habit of never open carrying... I don't want to let the BG's know who to look out for. hehehe.


Don't you mean who to avoid?

[KevDen2005]

You know why no one tells stories about carrying concealed without a permit? Because they go like this.

"I carried my gun, no one saw, no said anything, I went home. The End."


That makes for a very boring story!!!

But uneventful is what I would be hoping for!

[cowboykjohnson]

You know why no one tells stories about carrying concealed without a permit? Because they go like this.

"I carried my gun, no one saw, no said anything, I went home. The End."
That's my story everyday with a permit.

[funkfool]

You know why no one tells stories about carrying concealed without a permit? Because they go like this.

"I carried my gun, no one saw, no said anything, I went home. The End."

It initially suprised me with open carry, that usually - no-one notices...

Then I thought about it... just unobservant sheep - going about their business...
[Sofa]

[Elhuero]

every time I carry concealed I expect someone to see me print or flash, freak out and call the cops.

hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

[Irving]

every time I carry concealed I expect someone to see me print or flash, freak out and call the cops.

hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

I wouldn't count on it. Seriously.

[TFOGGER]

every time I carry concealed I expect someone to see me print or flash, freak out and call the cops.

hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Nah...most folks are clueless. Usually, the only ones who will notice are LE or other CCW carriers. A lot of the folks won't even notice if you're carrying openly...they just assume you're LE.

[cowboykjohnson]

It's sad that people are so oblivious. I notice this stuff right away, you can spot a 1911 on some guys hip from a mile off. I've noticed it gets little kids attention more than adults...

[theGinsue]

I think you'd get denied your first time trying and would have to straighten it out, but I think you are still allowed to purchase.

That's assuming that they don't find a felony to charge you with. What do you figure your chances would be of the Da not putting effort into doing just that?


But if everyone just plays along, how is it going to get better?

By working accourding to the system to change the laws. In my opinion, that is the only possible way.


Story time....[Coffee][Beer]

I had the almost the whole story typed up just now & my laptop locked up and my browser window greyed out. When it recovered I was back on page 2 of this thread and everything I typed was gone. I'll post the story tomorrow if I can.


Don't you mean who to avoid?

If I'm a BG, intent on doing evil I will consider someone who is OCing as my most obvious and immediate obstacle to me accomplishing my goal. The OC goes down first. Same reason the armed guard in a bank is the first guy bank robbers disarm or disable.

[newracer]

every time I carry concealed I expect someone to see me print or flash, freak out and call the cops.

hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

I have had my permit for almost 4 years now. I carry everyday everywhere I go. I don't even really try that hard anymore to conceal it. IWB with a t shirt 99% of the time. No one has ever said anything to me.

[Irving]

every time I carry concealed I expect someone to see me print or flash, freak out and call the cops.

hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

As long as you always expect sentence one, you'll likely never experience sentence two.


Ginsue, I know someone who was drunk and carrying without a permit and he got no felony charges or even close.

[iamhunter]

If I'm a BG, intent on doing evil I will consider someone who is OCing as my most obvious and immediate obstacle to me accomplishing my goal. The OC goes down first. Same reason the armed guard in a bank is the first guy bank robbers disarm or disable.

Most perps aren't looking to kill, they're looking to get in and get out.
Wouldn't you think that the typical perp would rather pick another store than confront an armed citizen?

And what if OCing caught on, are they going to be willing to take on 10 armed citizens?

and as a last point, your typical bank security guard is either old, overweight, or a combination of the two. If you had a 6'1" 200 lb. physically fit man sitting there in place, it might turn out differently.

Granted, this is just MY opinion and I'm not trying to claim any of it as fact.

And while many of you are NOT interested in making a political statement, I am.

It wasn't that long ago that "assault weapons" were banned.

And it's completely possible for something like that, or even more restrictive, will surface in the future.

It takes responsible, active, and brave citizens to let the law-makers know that WE WILL NOT TAKE IT.

And thankfully, with current law, I can make my political statement in a clear and legal manner, as well as protect myself.

[theGinsue]

I really do agree with you but I'm just not a big believer in people anymore and always expect the the worst out of them, even if it's not necessarily realistic.

[cowboykjohnson]

I really do agree with you but I'm just not a big believer in people anymore and always expect the the worst out of them, even if it's not necessarily realistic.
People tell me that there is something wrong with me for thinking like that.... but my family thinks I would make a good LEO because of it.

[iamhunter]

People tell me that there is something wrong with me for thinking like that.... but my family thinks I would make a good LEO because of it.

It's sad that we live in a day where that's a DESIRABLE quality for LEO.

[cowboykjohnson]

I'm sorry to say sad but true, to many wacked out people anymore.

[ryanek9freak]

I've been Oc'in for awhile now, and Stu is right. Most people don't even care, or if they happen to notice, they just assume you're a cop.

The only comments I've ever gotten is "Nice gun!" or "Is that a Colt?"

I did have a 6 year old ask me if I was a police officer once. I said no. Kid was like "why do you have a gun then?" I told him to go ask his dad. It was kinda funny. Didn't have time to explain the Constitution to a kid.

[funkfool]

Didn't have time to explain the Constitution to a kid.
That's ONE reason I bought a hundred of the pocket Constitutions from the National Center for Constitutional Studies - worked out to 0.30¢ each. Now I give them out to folks at work, friends, family - and curious kids...
Let's point them in the right direction early and hope to counteract some of the nonsense that is taught in the public educational system...

For anyone interested...
http://www.nccs.net/us_constitution.html

[KevDen2005]

I've been Oc'in for awhile now, and Stu is right. Most people don't even care, or if they happen to notice, they just assume you're a cop.

The only comments I've ever gotten is "Nice gun!" or "Is that a Colt?"

I did have a 6 year old ask me if I was a police officer once. I said no. Kid was like "why do you have a gun then?" I told him to go ask his dad. It was kinda funny. Didn't have time to explain the Constitution to a kid.


You should always make time to explain the constitution to anyone...Preach It!!!