View Full Version : Biometric work card
bowhunter
03-09-2010, 23:33
Like it will really keep people from hiring illegals. Maybe this has been posted but I searched and didnt see it here, seen it on fox news today. Sounds like the big agenda behind it is they would have almost every US citizens finger prints on file. They already have mine from military and CCW etc but I still dont like it! I really hope it dont pass, but under this administration they would have a good chance. They would probably charge us for getting a work card. I heard it is a REPUB and DEM pushing for it and they are meeting with osama as early as this week on it, anyone know more about it?
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 01:10
Sounds like the big agenda behind it is they would have almost every US citizens finger prints on file. They already have mine from military and CCW etc but I still dont like it!
There's always an agenda; isn't there?!
Same situation here for my prints (oh yeah, and my arrest), don't like any of hte reasons they have my prints.
they already have my prints so it doesn't really matter now.
too bad they can't give incentives to businesses to turn in illegal immigrants...would save a ton of tax dollars.
basically it would be nice to have a business that starts to employ all illegal aliens, they get comfortable, then BAM!!! INS!!!! and off they go, all possessions then belong to the .gov to be resold with some portions going to the business for partial lost revenue, and get them temp works ASAP.
basically it would be nice to have a business that starts to employ all illegal aliens, they get comfortable, then BAM!!! INS!!!! and off they go, all possessions then belong to the .gov to be resold with some portions going to the business for partial lost revenue, and get them temp works ASAP.
Wouldn't work. Remember a few months ago in Boston? INS got a bunhc of illegals working on a construction site, took them in, fingerprinted them, etc and then DROVE THEM BACK TO WORK AND BOUGHT THEM LUNCH ON THE WAY!!!!!!!! (Smakcing head against wall smiley needs to go here but I cna't find it.)
Pancho Villa
03-10-2010, 12:47
While I understand the security problems with no border security, I still dispute that most illegals are that big a deal.
My dad was illegal, he got amnesty the first time around (iirc.) Because of that I'm an American citizen, for which I am grateful.
If any of you ever had to deal with getting from x country into America I think you'd understand why so many otherwise honest mexis border hop. If you don't have a degree, money by the boatload or some absolutely vital skill, you have basically 0 chance of getting in. Thats ridiculous. I have a friend from Ecuador who is an opera singer, he has to pay thousands of dollars every year taking classes from a local uni to keep his student visa current - because he just can't get on the road to citizenship. He has never broken any law in his life, is an entertaining singer and standup guy. In Ecuador he'd be unemployed and quite poor; here he makes a decent living. The fact that he is more or less barred from becoming a US citizen within any reasonable amount of time is a farce of justice.
If you want to stop illegal immigration, stop making legal immigration a joke. The market will tell us how many immigrants with a particular job set is too many, because there won't be any more jobs and they'll go home. Govt quotas don't work with gas, cars or any other material item - they don't work with labor, either. If you are scared that some immigrant is going to lower your wages and/or steal your job, well...you can't cheat the market. If they don't lower your wages or steal your job by coming here, the same thing will happen when your job is shipped overseas - or just goes out of business entirely due to being uncompetitive in a global market. Govt protection of your wages / job isn't gonna help you there.
When that is done - and only then - will the border patrol actually have a reasonable chance at stopping terrorists or dangerous criminals from entering illegally. Right now the immigration controls create a huge market for coyotes - $5,000 a head or so to sneak you over. Thats big bucks. A lot of those guys don't care whether the guy they're smuggling over just wants to pick strawberries for 5 bucks an hour, or if he wants to commit acts of terrorism, or if he's a dangerous psychopath with a wrap sheet a mile long. When you get the strawberry pickers in a fast line that checks for criminal history, terrorist ties and a medical exam to make sure they aren't taking any dangerous, communicable diseases with them, you'll eliminate that market and make it both more expensive to get people over and easier for the border patrol to keep them out - since they won't have the camoflage of thousands of non-violent illegals to hide among.
It could be done quite easily. Slap a reasonable price tag on the exam to get in, in order to pay for the medical exam, background check and so forth. Could even be a small money-maker for the .gov, not that they'd spend it on anything worthwhile.
Good points... I wonder what the actual process entails. I know that my great grandparents came over from Scotland... but I know nothing of their journey to actually obtain legal status.
Pancho Villa
03-10-2010, 12:56
Here's a good summary, bigbear, in flowchart form:
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/4082/immigrationprocess.jpg
From everything I have read its pretty much spot on.
cowboykjohnson
03-10-2010, 13:12
My roommate is dating a Malaysian woman and she did everything the legal way to become a citizen.... it's not really that hard... it just takes some effort like everything else in life.
The Biometric card I don't believe in, and it doesn't really matter since the Govt has 4 or 5 sets of my prints anyway... not that I even want them to, but there's not much I can do about it.
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 13:21
I know that this is a very UN-popular position, but I disagree. I say make ALL immigration into the U.S. more difficult - except for the spouse and any children of a U.S. citizen or the spouse ONLY (no exceptions for extended family.
People would rather come to the U.S. because they believe what we have is something better than what they've left (don't get me started on the badmouthing many do once they get here or the transformations of many communities into the same as what they left - I'll save that for another rant!).
I'm not one who believes that a flood of immigrants (legal or otherwise) makes this a better nation. I'm sorry, but I don't.
Instead of coming here, why don't those people put the same level of effort into improving the conditions of their nation of origin? It's said that the U.S. has an estimated 12 million illegal Mexican immigrants. 12 million people going back to Mexico could make a significant difference/improvement in the nation of Mexico if they put some effort into it.
If my house was getting dilapidated (needing new windows, a paint job, replacing the roof, etc.) and I decided that I didn't like those conditions and chose to sneak into and "squat" in the home of someone in a more affluent community, I wouldn't be making HIS home BETTER, nor would it improve the conditions of the home I left. I wouldn't have to worry about painting his home, etc. and I'd be willing to mow his lawn/shovel his drive once in a while to "do my part" by doing the jobs he "doesn't want to do".
Because he speaks with greater literacy and a better vocabulary than I do (different cultures and all), he'd need to learn how to adjust to communicate with me. I'd also need him to fund the education of my children to give them a fair chance in the private schools his children go to - it's only fair. If I got injured and got sick while living in his home, he'd have to pay my medical costs because I just can't afford it. He'd have to listen to me complain about how he's keeping me down and restricting me by keeping me in a small basement room - which he complains that my "Joe's Beer & Dart Pub" flags don't go with his high-class decor' - after all, I'm just displaying my pride in where I've come from. It's HIS problem if any of this is an issue for him - he's just intolerant and selfish.
Yeah, BAN immigration!
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 13:27
The Biometric card I don't believe in, and it doesn't really matter since the Govt has 4 or 5 sets of my prints anyway... not that I even want them to, but there's not much I can do about it.
If only it would be limited to the use for employment - and limited to requiring your fingerprints. I saw on the news this AM that one of the options being considered (among many) is embedding scans of the veins in your hands onto a chip on the card. How long until the chip IS IN YOUR HAND? How long until they decide the bio card can/should ALSO be used for.....? Isn't that EXACTLY what they did with the SSN? By law, your SSN is only supposed to be used to identify your Social Security account. It was not meant to be used as a common form of identification - but that's just what it is; isn't it?!
I don't trust this plan one bit!
hmmm... After looking at the immigration chart, it doesn't seem to cost a lot or be a huge production. It does take a lot of time and work. I do agree with the chart as well in the points of if you are unskilled, etc, we don't need you. However, "skilled" is very subjective as a farmer or a construction laborer is skilled work.
I also agree with the points that it is typical for immigrants to combine with "their" own and refuse to assilmilate (learn the language, etc) to the American "culture" (very subjective as to what that culture is) thus pulling areas down into ghettos and regions reminiscent of their home country... of which they came here to be rid of.
I don't want to sound like an "elitist" or racist. So I apologize if that is how I come across as. But I sincerely do believe we should close the borders and deal with our own internal problems for a while. We are almost expected to be the world's "Big Brother" yet a saying always comes to mind: How can you take care of others if you can't take care of yourself?
immigration is one of the problems in the US. make it harder to get in, for the ones that do get in they need to show proof they are doing something positive for the country or they get booted. I work with several immigrants who have gone through the process, and while tough...that is the price to pay.
no more "if you are born here you are a US citizen" bullshit. Parents need to be US citizens or the same thing will apply for their children. too many border jumpers get a safe haven here because of that.
huge crackdown on immigrants...you cause harm to the society, by way of illegal wrong doings (maybe a 3 strike system depending on severity of the crime), then you are gone.
This country doesn't need to GROW any more...we have enough people here. The huge cities, massive populations, welfare, too few jobs, outsourcing to other countries because it is cheaper are all reasons to slow down immigration.
I'm not one who believes that a flood of immigrants (legal or otherwise) makes this a better nation. I'm sorry, but I don't.
Are you a native american indian? If not, then aren't you being more than a tad hypocritical here?
Also, have you studied American history? Are you aware of the term "culutural melting pot"?
Do you know how many people live in China, India, Brazil, Phillipines? And how many live here?
This country doesn't need to GROW any more...we have enough people here. The huge cities, massive populations, welfare, too few jobs, outsourcing to other countries because it is cheaper are all reasons to slow down immigration.
I COMPLETELY disagree. Have you ever driven around this state? When I first moved here, I was absolutely AMAZED that you can go for MILES down the highway and see absolutely nothing but empty land.
The more people that are here, the more jobs there are. We are almost entirely a service economy -- and while that's bad, it makes this point all the more apparent.
We need everyone we can get. We need to invest in education for natural born citizens and native Americans alike. This is an investment in the true sense of the word! We put money in, and down the road we get more money out.
Too many people make assumptions that seem logical at first glance when it comes to issues like this.
If you want to make rum runners illegal, make rum legal. Worked then, it works now.
If you want to make border hoppers illegal, make immigration legal.
Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "undocumented pharmacist". [Bang]
While many come here and work hard, because they are not in the system, they don't pay income taxes. Because so many have "fluid" identities, they feel no need to get health insurance, auto insurance, or driver's licenses. A large number also feel no need to show up for court, pay for license plates, pay their hospital bills, or take reasonable care of their rented housing(occupied by 4 times as many as it was designed for).
These are the costs of illegal aliens, borne by the humble taxpayer. Just ask anyone that's been in an auto accident with someone with a Chihuahua license if they got any money.....[Rant1]
/rant
huge crackdown on immigrants...you cause harm to the society, by way of illegal wrong doings (maybe a 3 strike system depending on severity of the crime), then you are gone.
I think that's already the case for GC holders, and for some pretty 'minor' things too, such as fraud, theft, domestic violence, and drug possession. GC holders can even be deported for not informing the DHS that they have moved house within a reasonable time.
imigrants are like electricity, they take the path of least resistance.
that's why they jump the border.
the problem could be easily fixed, but the fix would entail actually punishing those that break the law.... something the government will never do.
as for a biometric work card, I'm against it and I won't submit.
I think that's already the case for GC holders, and for some pretty 'minor' things too, such as fraud, theft, domestic violence, and drug possession. GC holders can even be deported for not informing the DHS that they have moved house within a reasonable time.
sweet, I didn't know that. glad they are held accountable for their actions when they come here.
With me it really all boils down to the illegal immigrants. They waste my time at wells fargo, they waste my time at wal-mart and they waste my time at the DMV, on top of the crime, not paying taxes, living several families to a house, making nice trucks look like absolute shit and just in general bringing communities down.
I COMPLETELY disagree. Have you ever driven around this state? When I first moved here, I was absolutely AMAZED that you can go for MILES down the highway and see absolutely nothing but empty land.
The more people that are here, the more jobs there are. We are almost entirely a service economy -- and while that's bad, it makes this point all the more apparent.
We need everyone we can get. We need to invest in education for natural born citizens and native Americans alike. This is an investment in the true sense of the word! We put money in, and down the road we get more money out.
Too many people make assumptions that seem logical at first glance when it comes to issues like this.
If you want to make rum runners illegal, make rum legal. Worked then, it works now.
If you want to make border hoppers illegal, make immigration legal.
that is the beauty of this state, the openness, and serenity. More people does not mean more jobs. what about welfare, medicaid, businesses shutting down due to factories in other countries etc. etc. we already have enough people for the jobs, actually in excessive amounts.
immigration is already legal, so I don't get your argument.
ronaldrwl
03-10-2010, 17:47
Most illegals are good hard working people but that is not the issue. We have the right to decide who comes to our country. Period.
Jumpstart
03-10-2010, 18:47
I would submit that one could tie ALL of our domestic ills to illegal aliens and illegal immigration as the driving cause. Anyone wanna play? Education cost? Health care costs? Enviromental impact? Gang violence? Teen pregnancy? Prisons systems?
Jumpstart
03-10-2010, 19:07
I COMPLETELY disagree. Have you ever driven around this state? When I first moved here, I was absolutely AMAZED that you can go for MILES down the highway and see absolutely nothing but empty land.
The more people that are here, the more jobs there are. We are almost entirely a service economy -- and while that's bad, it makes this point all the more apparent.
We need everyone we can get. We need to invest in education for natural born citizens and native Americans alike. This is an investment in the true sense of the word! We put money in, and down the road we get more money out.
Too many people make assumptions that seem logical at first glance when it comes to issues like this.
If you want to make rum runners illegal, make rum legal. Worked then, it works now.
If you want to make border hoppers illegal, make immigration legal.
Illegal immigration/immigration sure is working out well for California isn't it? Economically, culturally and enviromentally. (insert sarcasm) So if we need everyone we can get, shouldn't we be running ships to India, China and Africa and just loading up the country? Imagine what a "cultral melting pot" (insert eye roll and a reminder we aren't in the 19th century any more) utopia we would have here in the USA.(more sarcasm) Illegal aliens and illegal immigration cost the USA multi-millions/billions... after they pay a pittance in taxes. Now U.S. citizens have to get a national id card?
Immigration is legal, so is rum. Get a freakin clue dude.
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 19:11
immigration is one of the problems in the US. make it harder to get in, for the ones that do get in they need to show proof they are doing something positive for the country or they get booted. I work with several immigrants who have gone through the process, and while tough...that is the price to pay.
no more "if you are born here you are a US citizen" bullshit. Parents need to be US citizens or the same thing will apply for their children. too many border jumpers get a safe haven here because of that.
huge crackdown on immigrants...you cause harm to the society, by way of illegal wrong doings (maybe a 3 strike system depending on severity of the crime), then you are gone.
This country doesn't need to GROW any more...we have enough people here. The huge cities, massive populations, welfare, too few jobs, outsourcing to other countries because it is cheaper are all reasons to slow down immigration.
I agree wholeheartedly with you!
Troublco
03-10-2010, 19:26
I basically agree with the notion that it is our country, and we should be able to decide who immigrates and not. I know it's that way in other countries. You can't just up and move to Australia, for instance. They have strict requirements, with a few caveats for refugees and such.
I think a large portion of the problem is the issues that the illegals cause, like the health care cost issues, nonpayment of income tax, refusal to learn the language but demand that citizens learn theirs and so on is a large portion of why there's so much animosity on the subject. How often do you hear of an illegal getting into an accident without any insurance, and then almost nothing happens to them? I have a buddy who's lost his military career because of that exact situation, and there isn't a thing he can do but find another job.
While I sympathize with people wanting to better their situations and provide their children a better life, I really can't sympathize with not doing it the right way. I have ancestors who immigrated, and they had to jump through the hoops. I'm required to get a driver's license, hold insurance on my vehicles, pay taxes, obey the law and so on. I see no reason not to expect it of everyone else.
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 19:58
Are you a native american indian? If not, then aren't you being more than a tad hypocritical here?
Also, have you studied American history? Are you aware of the term "culutural melting pot"?
Do you know how many people live in China, India, Brazil, Phillipines? And how many live here?
No, I'm not a Native American, and no, I don't think I am being hypocritical. Yes, I've studied (and continue to study) American history. Are YOU aware that the phrase cultural melting pot / melting pot actually has it's origins in the first decade of the 20th Century - more than 100 years ago?
Do I know how many people live in the various nations you listed and how many live here? Not EXACTLY, but I've seen the numbers for all of those nations in the last year or two. Do you know what nation has the highest infection rate for HIV (KwaZulu-Natal) and what nation has the highest household income per capita (Luxembourg)? Who cares? My arguement isn't based on HOW MANY people we have, it's based on a variety of issues such as what value the people add. Sure, we have a HUGE group of citizens who don't add any value whatsoever - that's a whole separate issue.
What is the point of allowing immigration? Is it to add to our value as a nation? Is it to give a break to someone less fortunate than ourselves?
Is it just because it's the morally right thing to do? I'm not buying any of it.
There is a time and a place for everything. The time for the U.S. to have a liberal immigration policy ended more than 70 years ago.
When MY ancestors immigrated to the U.S. and when so many other individuals came from Europe, Asia (predominantly China), and South America during the height of our immigrant rush, we were in the infancy of our growth as a nation. We had so many emerging industries and not nearly enough people to fill all of the available positions. We had huge expanses of land that our national policy said we needed to spread out into. It was determined that it was in our best interest to have a liberal immigration policy. We were also in a respectable position to be able to handle the masses of individuals fleeing their home nations. None of these circumstances exists today.
We have far too many issues within our own borders we need to resolve before we concern ourselves with the citizens of other nations and try to embrace their "huddled masses". We certainly don't need their "wretched refuse" of their "teeming shore".
I COMPLETELY disagree. Have you ever driven around this state? When I first moved here, I was absolutely AMAZED that you can go for MILES down the highway and see absolutely nothing but empty land.
Do you mean the protected open space? The protected National and State Forests? The State Parks, BLM land, etc? The U.S. loses more than 3000 acres of this "empty land" every single day - to permanent development that can never again be used as habitat for elk and most other wild game species that call Colorado home. The rate of habitat loss in the West, primarily to subdivision and development, is staggering. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, more than 3.2 million acres of Western ranchland have been carved up for other uses, mostly new neighborhoods and shopping malls, since 1982. The human population in the West is growing much faster than the national average. Now the American Farmland Trust reports that 11 percent of remaining prime ranchland—as much as 8.8 million acres of classic elk wintering range—in the Rocky Mountain states could be converted to residential development by 2020.
Is this the lland you're referring to? Most people come to Colorado BECAUSE of that land and the condition it's in and the animals that live there. Do you propose that we develop that "empty land" for immigants? How short sighted. Personally, I'd like to believe that my gandkids will get to enjoy the wild open land that CO boasts so much of.
theGinsue
03-10-2010, 20:22
the problem could be easily fixed, but the fix would entail actually punishing those that break the law.... something the government will never do.
Most illegals are good hard working people but that is not the issue. We have the right to decide who comes to our country. Period.
Illegal immigration/immigration sure is working out well for California isn't it? Economically, culturally and enviromentally. (insert sarcasm) So if we need everyone we can get, shouldn't we be running ships to India, China and Africa and just loading up the country? Imagine what a "cultral melting pot" (insert eye roll and a reminder we aren't in the 19th century any more) utopia we would have here in the USA.(more sarcasm) Illegal aliens and illegal immigration cost the USA multi-millions/billions... after they pay a pittance in taxes. Now U.S. citizens have to get a national id card?
Immigration is legal, so is rum. Get a freakin clue dude.
Comment on first quote: Yes!
Comment on second quote: Yes!
Comment on third quote: Nicely stated!
Illegal immigration/immigration sure is working out well for California isn't it? Economically, culturally and enviromentally. (insert sarcasm) So if we need everyone we can get, shouldn't we be running ships to India, China and Africa and just loading up the country? Imagine what a "cultral melting pot" (insert eye roll and a reminder we aren't in the 19th century any more) utopia we would have here in the USA.(more sarcasm) Illegal aliens and illegal immigration cost the USA multi-millions/billions... after they pay a pittance in taxes. Now U.S. citizens have to get a national id card?
Immigration is legal, so is rum. Get a freakin clue dude.
I call this post hitting the nail on the head
Pancho Villa
03-11-2010, 06:42
Millions of kids are born every year - if the country is "already big enough," why not make abortions mandatory?
Millions of poor legal citizens (hey, ever listen to Rush? The bottom 40% of income earners don't really pay taxes anyway) are a net drain on the tax system, use the medical system without "paying in," etc.
Worried about immigrants coming in and voting for a socialist? Better be more worried about the few million high school graduates every year, 'cause the US public education system is a lot better at turning out socialists than crumbling socialist countries.
Here's the deal, guys. If you don't want moochers using up "our" healthcare, "our" roads, etc., stop making them "free." The illusion that all this socialism would work out just fine if only we didn't have illegals around is a joke. Over 150 million people in the US belong to households that don't pay much if any income tax - I would be much more concerned about that than I would be about some mexis border hopping and not paying the $15 in social security that they "should be."
I hear lots of talk of individualism, individual rights, how evil collectivism is, etc, here every day...but all of a sudden it isn't "my" business to do with what I please (like hire cheap mexican labor,) its "our" country? And by extension, "our" business - since you get to tell me what I can and can't do, by virtue of being squirted out in the good ol' US of A? WTF is up with that?
Anyone ever get paid in cash, and not reported the income? (I know I have. For a while it was the only way I could keep a roof over my head and not starve.) Ever sell a rifle and said fuck you IRS, I'm not giving you 30% of the cash I made on this? You've just put yourself in the same tax-avoiding class as some illegals. Its heroic and sticking it to the man or taking back some of the money thats rightfully yours when we do it, but destroying society when some mexican does it? C'mon.
The bottom line is - socialism doesn't work, with or without illegal immigration. The bottom line is - unless there is significant cultural reform, most especially in the school system, we're on a bad road, with or without immigrants coming in. Cali would be down in a hole if they had a fence with tijuana 50 feet high and armed guards every 5 feet. Want to know why?
SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK!
Don't go pie-in-the-sky socialist and tell me that your socialist utopia of Cali would have worked out swell...if it just weren't for those damn mexicans screwing everything up.
Beprepared
03-11-2010, 12:14
OK....so we have laws on the books to address the issues. Why don't we(feds)(cities) enforce them. Here is a different perspective.
1....millions of immigrants use social security and tax Id numbers many are fraudulent (of course many are also legit). For discussion we'll say half real half fake. I have now idea what the real numbers are. So with all these people paying into social security, will they collect retirement? Not as likely. They tax the system elsewhere sure. I believe reason one why the feds ignore this is to extend their ponzi scheme of social security.
2....votes, votes, votes
3....With the exception of China, Latin America, and the U.S. the world is being emigrated by Muslims. Europe and much of the world is being overrun by Muslims. They out breed the rest of the world. Islamic moderates are being pushed out by extremists. Latin American immigrants are Christians that breed.
Food for thought. More on perspective 3 read Mark Steyns bookAmerica Alone
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 14:24
Latin American immigrants are Christians that breed.
Fine. Let them breed, in Latin America. In the meantime, let's start government paid for programs to get U.S. birthrates up on White Christians via economic incentives. How's that for a radical idea?
Beprepared
03-11-2010, 17:19
Fine. Let them breed, in Latin America. In the meantime, let's start government paid for programs to get U.S. birthrates up on White Christians via economic incentives. How's that for a radical idea?
I was only stating possible reasons why politicians let it happen. Controlled immigrations is fine. Illegal immigration is not. I agree with your previous statements. Your current statement^^^^^with some perceived racism injected into it ....yea a bit radical.[Beer]
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 17:48
I was only stating possible reasons why politicians let it happen. Controlled immigrations is fine. Illegal immigration is not. I agree with your previous statements. Your current statement^^^^^with some perceived racism injected into it ....yea a bit radical.[Beer]
WHy do you think it "racist" if you would indulge me? Ethno-centric perhaps, but racist?
Beprepared
03-11-2010, 18:48
WHy do you think it "racist" if you would indulge me? Ethno-centric perhaps, but racist?
Ethno-centric, sure I'll give you that. [Beer]
SA Friday
03-11-2010, 19:08
If the process is so easy to immigrate, why do so many pay a coyote to bring them across the border? Seriously, I don't know the answer but the question itself has to point to something relevent to this discussion.
Second thing that comes to mind is this there's very little scientific data on the socialogical aspect of illegal immigration. Assuming the answers to the questions about illegal immigration are as easy as "to make money" or "so they don't have to pay taxes and pay for licenses..." may very well not be true. An example of this type of generalized truth is if I asked everyone to describe the most victimized group of people who live in the USA. I suspect I would get a lot of interesting answers, but the simple fact is the stastics from NIBRS and NCVS show african american males 18-24 years old are the most victimized. It refutes what most people say they know.
Illegal immigrants are well documented to strain certain parts of our economy, and that is a problem, but is it a problem that's alleviated through restriction or envelopment? I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to this question until we try one or the other. What I do know is this: the Republicans will advocate for restriction and the Democrats will advocate for envelopment. It comes down to votes for the politicians.
I personally believe envelopment should be tried first. I believe it's more in line with our countries heritage and belief that all are created equal, and has the best shot at leveling out the financial offset illegal immigration creates. I've seen restriction at work when I was in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar. It results in a separated society of citizens and non-citizens. This has happened in lots of different cultures over history (the Roman Empire and United Kingdom come to mind), and it just never seems to work out in the long run.
The time for us to bring in immigrants isn't over. We need to make it easier for anyone who wants to become a US citizen to make that transition. If we set reasonable standards for entry to make the legal path a viable option, then the number of people coming here illegally would drop. If the number of illegals drops, then DHS has much better chances of actually enforcing the laws. In fact, the only other way to dramatically stem illegal immigration would be for our economy to crater. Even the DMZ has cross border raids launched from it, and it's a fraction the width of our land borders.
Someone made the argument about not all the factories going overseas and it made me want to [Bang]
Yes, factories have moved to where the cheap labor is. If we could bring in more cheap labor, maybe we could keep more of those factories here. Unless your job is in services, government, or construction it can be outsourced. So you can either ship the work to cheap workers overseas, or at home.
The idea that just "makes sense" isn't always correct. It may "make sense" that keeping out anyone but natural born citizens would translate to more jobs for said citizens, but it simply isn't so.
If you think your special because your parents moved to this country in the distant path, I would respectfully disagree. You have no more right to lay claim to the title "citizen" than anyone else who wants to go through the steps involved. And I think the steps involved should be easier and on a shorter timescale. Those huddled masses will be your customers in a few years, if you let them.
H.
So at the moment does an employer have a responsibility to ensure that the person they're hiring isn't an illegal immigrant (I'm talking something more substantial than day labor)?
I have a social security number, which I presume they would want from me if I applied for a job, but I also still have an English accent (so my wife tells me) so would they want to see my certificate of naturalization or my US passport?
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 19:19
The time for us to bring in immigrants isn't over. We need to make it easier for anyone who wants to become a US citizen to make that transition. If we set reasonable standards for entry to make the legal path a viable option, then the number of people coming here illegally would drop. If the number of illegals drops, then DHS has much better chances of actually enforcing the laws. In fact, the only other way to dramatically stem illegal immigration would be for our economy to crater. Even the DMZ has cross border raids launched from it, and it's a fraction the width of our land borders.
Someone made the argument about not all the factories going overseas and it made me want to [Bang]
Yes, factories have moved to where the cheap labor is. If we could bring in more cheap labor, maybe we could keep more of those factories here. Unless your job is in services, government, or construction it can be outsourced. So you can either ship the work to cheap workers overseas, or at home.
The idea that just "makes sense" isn't always correct. It may "make sense" that keeping out anyone but natural born citizens would translate to more jobs for said citizens, but it simply isn't so.
If you think your special because your parents moved to this country in the distant path, I would respectfully disagree. You have no more right to lay claim to the title "citizen" than anyone else who wants to go through the steps involved. And I think the steps involved should be easier and on a shorter timescale. Those huddled masses will be your customers in a few years, if you let them.
H.
Nah, the U.S.A needs to come into the 21st century in regards to immigration, much like in Europe. We need to practice exclusivity not inclusivity. Our own U.S. citizens with only a high school diploma will take more than they put into the "system" over their lifetimes. Yet you would have us believe that third world peasants bringing their extended families with 5th grade educations will not. That's a tough sell and rightly so, it's simply not plausible. I take it you aren't from "here". Welcome to the U.S.A. I hope you did it the legal way.
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 19:23
Ethno-centric, sure I'll give you that. [Beer]
You don't have to "give" me anything, just explain why what I posted is "racist" in your opinion.
I dare you.
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 19:33
The time for us to bring in immigrants isn't over. We need to make it easier for anyone who wants to become a US citizen to make that transition. If we set reasonable standards for entry to make the legal path a viable option, then the number of people coming here illegally would drop. If the number of illegals drops, then DHS has much better chances of actually enforcing the laws. In fact, the only other way to dramatically stem illegal immigration would be for our economy to crater. Even the DMZ has cross border raids launched from it, and it's a fraction the width of our land borders.
Someone made the argument about not all the factories going overseas and it made me want to [Bang]
Yes, factories have moved to where the cheap labor is. If we could bring in more cheap labor, maybe we could keep more of those factories here. Unless your job is in services, government, or construction it can be outsourced. So you can either ship the work to cheap workers overseas, or at home.
The idea that just "makes sense" isn't always correct. It may "make sense" that keeping out anyone but natural born citizens would translate to more jobs for said citizens, but it simply isn't so.
If you think your special because your parents moved to this country in the distant path, I would respectfully disagree. You have no more right to lay claim to the title "citizen" than anyone else who wants to go through the steps involved. And I think the steps involved should be easier and on a shorter timescale. Those huddled masses will be your customers in a few years, if you let them.
H.
Oh BTW, the USA lets in over 2 million people from around the globe, into the USA, ANNUALLy and LEGALLY, more than all of the nations in the world COMBINED. That's LEGALLY mind you, not the millions coming over ILLEGALLY. Year after year decade after decade. Yet again you think we should be open borders for some pie-in-the skyprofit fantasy. Maybe we should take Mexico's lead and their immigration laws.
http://www.lonestardiary.com/?page_id=476
Beprepared
03-11-2010, 19:43
You don't have to "give" me anything, just explain why what I posted is "racist" in your opinion.
I dare you.
Look Jumpstart, the last thing I think this site needs is talk of racial exclusiveness. I don't want some member to screw up with the law, and the justice department, media, and Liberal loons, find the smallest minutia of racial talk. Then we're branded a Racist Militia.
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 20:04
Look Jumpstart, the last thing I think this site needs is talk of racial exclusiveness. I don't want some member to screw up with the law, and the justice department, media, and Liberal loons, find the smallest minutia of racial talk. Then we're branded a Racist Militia.
With all due respect, who said anything of racial exclusiveness on this site? No one that I've seen but you, with the above post. "Racist militia"? For speaking on " politically inconvenient " subjects I suppose? Geez........
Okay, I'll just shut up and line up for my biometric card. At least being bi-lingual, I'll be to jump in either the English or Spanish line.
I think a lot of economic prosperity has to do with the fact that we're the only industrialized nation whose population isn't in decline. That's true in large part because we allow in so many immigrants.
As for my welcome to the US, sorry I'm a natural born citizen. You can assume you know me based on what I say, but trust me you don't.
Your point of view will sway the majority though, no doubt. I guess we'll all find out what it's like to no longer be the largest economy on earth.
as soon as china calls its marker
Jumpstart
03-11-2010, 20:54
I think a lot of economic prosperity has to do with the fact that we're the only industrialized nation whose population isn't in decline. That's true in large part because we allow in so many immigrants.
As for my welcome to the US, sorry I'm a natural born citizen. You can assume you know me based on what I say, but trust me you don't.
Your point of view will sway the majority though, no doubt. I guess we'll all find out what it's like to no longer be the largest economy on earth.
Again I can easily combat your fear mongering with some of my own, except mine has legs. California's economy in has rivaled that of many medium sized countries, California is a polyglot of races and cultures now, California is also bankrupt now.
California's economy in has rivaled that of many medium sized countries, California is a polyglot of races and cultures now, California is also bankrupt now.
Correlation does not imply Causation. There are many factors why California is broke.
How much additional revenue could be collected if all those seasonal farmers in the central valley had taxes withheld? How much could California save by not having checkpoints on the highway 80 miles from the border?
The fiscal irresponsibility of the procession of California governments is not solely caused by illegal immigration -- though I'm sure it's a cause.
H.
theGinsue
03-11-2010, 21:46
Can we call a truce and a cessation to the immigration discussion? I know I participated in this as much as anyone, but it looks like its getting a bit off track and heated.
Why don't we bring this back around to the specifics of the Biometric Work Card and what we think of that specifically (not the "why do we need it" focus).
Just a suggestion/recommendation to ensure we all stay civil and friendly.
Thank you Ginsue,, I was really getting close to giving it a time out..
Agreed.
As for bio-metric ID's, I'm against them. Here's quote:
"One more problem with biometrics: they don't fail well. Passwords can be changed, but if someone copies your thumbprint, you're out of luck: you can't update your thumb. Passwords can be backed up, but if you alter your thumbprint in an accident, you're stuck. The failures don't have to be this spectacular: a voiceprint reader might not recognize someone with a sore throat, or a fingerprint reader might fail outside in freezing weather. Biometric systems need to be analyzed in light of these possibilities."
From here: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html
This guy is good on a lot of security factors, not just IT securirty.
Jumpstart
03-12-2010, 06:24
Correlation does not imply Causation. There are many factors why California is broke.
How much additional revenue could be collected if all those seasonal farmers in the central valley had taxes withheld? How much could California save by not having checkpoints on the highway 80 miles from the border?
The fiscal irresponsibility of the procession of California governments is not solely caused by illegal immigration -- though I'm sure it's a cause.
H.
Yes it does. There is a direct correlation. A straight line from California's bankruptcy to immigration, legal and illegal. Yet you want to talk about a border checkpoint 80 miles from the border.
As for addtional revenue from taxing illegals in the central valley, well they all ready are being taxed IF they work. Notice how the liberal media, if it 's reputable, never bring up numbers or economics when talking about illegal aliens? If they did, it would shock and awe the public. The math is simple, illegal aliens are subsidized by American citizens and have been for the last quarter century. Illegal aliens are/have been coming in by the millions annually,decade after decade as well, more numbers you won't see.
Now do you want to talk about American culture, heritage and demographics in the context of illegal immigration? Or just about pie-in-the sky fantasy "profit" (insert eye roll) off of illegal aliens. Do you want to talk about why U.S citizens have to get a national biometric ID card because of illegal immigration? Oh, wait, we already are.
There is a direct correlation. A straight line from California's bankruptcy to immigration, legal and illegal. Yet you want to talk about a border checkpoint 80 miles from the border.
As for addtional revenue from taxing illegals in the central valley, well they all ready are being taxed IF they work. Notice how the liberal media, if it 's reputable, never bring up numbers or economics when talking about illegal aliens? If they did, it would shock and awe the public. The math is simple, illegal aliens are subsidized by American citizens and have been for the last quarter century. Illegal aliens are/have been coming in by the millions annually,decade after decade as well, more numbers you won't see.
Now do you want to talk about American culture, heritage and demographics in the context of illegal immigration? Or just about pie-in-the sky fantasy "profit" (insert eye roll) off of illegal aliens. Do you want to talk about why U.S citizens have to get a national biometric ID card because of illegal immigration? Oh, wait, we already are.
I'm bowing out of this conversation as Ginsue suggested... if you have URL's to data that shows what you're saying, PM me -- if the facts support your conclusion my mind can be changed.
I don't like biometrics... I had a safe once... I burned off my thumbprint once (on accident!!!)... safe no worky now... I no like biometrics.....
Jumpstart
03-12-2010, 16:37
I'm bowing out of this conversation as Ginsue suggested... if you have URL's to data that shows what you're saying, PM me -- if the facts support your conclusion my mind can be changed.
It took my just a few taps on the keyboard.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/dec/06/20041206-102115-6766r/
I am a big fan of keeping illegal aliens out of our country for a number of reasons.
...And yes I do have a dog in the fight. My wife is from the Rep of Panama. After we were married, I spent a lot of time and money paving the way for her to become a US citizen, which she is very proud to be. She feels the same way about illegal immigration as I do.
Pancho Villa
03-12-2010, 21:36
"I [know/married/am related to] x immigrant who feels the same way about this issue as I do" is a really poor argument.
There's hispanics in the Minute Men. That doesn't automatically shield the MM from criticism of any type.
I happen to have a dad who was born in Mexico. That does not make my opinion on illegal immigration more or less valid. My arguments do.
I won't drop into troll-bait like jumpstart has put here, but for the record guys, ethno-centrism is racism. Accessed with just a few taps of the keyboard:
rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) http://sp.ask.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.Policies to encourage the "breeding" of "white christians" is more or less textbook racism and hey, consequentially, one of the hallmarks of some of the more colorful autocracies in the 20th century. I certainly don't want any of my money going to subsidize your welfare babies, of any race, let alone ones earmarked specifically for "white christians." But I guess we are all chattel slaves to the govt whose purpose is to encourage a strong, unified volk. What could possibly go wrong with that kind of philosophy, right guys?
I'm out of this thread. There are differences in policy that I can at least tolerate, if not understand, and there are people who declare themselves outside of the realm of civil discussion.
Jumpstart
03-13-2010, 07:38
"I [know/married/am related to] x immigrant who feels the same way about this issue as I do" is a really poor argument.
There's hispanics in the Minute Men. That doesn't automatically shield the MM from criticism of any type.
I happen to have a dad who was born in Mexico. That does not make my opinion on illegal immigration more or less valid. My arguments do.
I won't drop into troll-bait like jumpstart has put here, but for the record guys, ethno-centrism is racism. Accessed with just a few taps of the keyboard:
Policies to encourage the "breeding" of "white christians" is more or less textbook racism and hey, consequentially, one of the hallmarks of some of the more colorful autocracies in the 20th century. I certainly don't want any of my money going to subsidize your welfare babies, of any race, let alone ones earmarked specifically for "white christians." But I guess we are all chattel slaves to the govt whose purpose is to encourage a strong, unified volk. What could possibly go wrong with that kind of philosophy, right guys?
I'm out of this thread. There are differences in policy that I can at least tolerate, if not understand, and there are people who declare themselves outside of the realm of civil discussion.
All discussion here has been civil IMHO. Just because you are seemingly uncomfortable with the topic you deem it "uncivil"? I would disagree with your perception. The topic was biometric cards. We discussed it and as typical, it takes it course. Yet you seemingly stoop to slight me with with soft innuendos of racism and a "troll" because I dare speak what others may be thinking, and because I am white and commenting on racial issues? I could say that smacks of racism on your part, but I will refrain.
As for you not wanting to have your money going to any welfare babies, "let alone earmarked specifically for white Christians", isn't that a racist statement by you? Okay let's say no. Then I would be free to say I don't want any of my money earmarked specifically for brown illegal aliens. Yet my tax money does. (How is that fair?) So if that last statement makes me "racist", then by that measure, so does your statement about white Christians.
It not really about race at all, just fairness. I just starting to ask for it is all.
Pancho Villa
03-13-2010, 07:42
I'm not doing innuendo. If you believe in ethnocentrism you are a racist. That simple.
I didn't say you were uncivil in your methods, I said your beliefs were outside the realm of civil discussion. Civil discussion takes place with some ideas presupposed - for example, that all actors will hold reason as the highest arbiter, hold no particular ill will towards each other, etc. A racist falls outside that category, even if he cries to everyone that he's not a racist. I would react the same way to someone who wanted to 'debate' eating children.
Jumpstart
03-13-2010, 09:37
I'm not doing innuendo. If you believe in ethnocentrism you are a racist. That simple.
I didn't say you were uncivil in your methods, I said your beliefs were outside the realm of civil discussion. Civil discussion takes place with some ideas presupposed - for example, that all actors will hold reason as the highest arbiter, hold no particular ill will towards each other, etc. A racist falls outside that category, even if he cries to everyone that he's not a racist. I would react the same way to someone who wanted to 'debate' eating children.
I get it. I can't take the same license on racial/social issues because of my skin color.
theGinsue
03-13-2010, 09:54
Folks, the discussion was on biometric cards - and what your opinion of those are. It was not about the reasons biometric cards are being considered, nor about finger-pointing, name calling, legal/illegal immigration or racism as it is/is not occuring on this thread.
We are a single-issue site with like minded people for that issue. Let us PLEASE refrain from making this an uncomfortable environment for the rest of us.
I respectfully ask that we keep the discussion to "what do you think of biometric cards for identification" or refrain from posting.
We are a great group on individuals on this site. We don't need internal hostility or saying things that might get this site labeled what it is not. I thank you for considering this prior to posting.
Sincerely,
GMKIA - 3rd Class
Jumpstart
03-13-2010, 10:16
Is it wrong for me to love my own? Is it wicked for me because my skin is red? Because I am Sioux? Because I was born where my father lived? Because I would die for my people and my country?
Sitting Bull
theGinsue
03-13-2010, 10:47
I tried. Now all that is left for me to do is...
[DC3]
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