Thinking about getting my C&R License

[bullpup]

I have some questions reguarding a C & R license. I have already requested the forms, but before I get them, I would like to decide if I want to go through with it.
1. On keeping a bound book: I'm organized but is it difficult to obtain the information for the book? I have looked at a couple of different record books online and I think I understand most of it. Under "Description" I need manufacture or importer (would this be who made the rifle and the importer and do I need both)? Under "Receipt" do I just put the date that I received the rifle and the name of the company and address I received it from? Under "Disposition," is this just information that I would collect if I sold the rifle?

2. If, hypothetically, I purchased a firearm and wanted to give it as a gift to my father, would this be legal? Would I just fill out the Disposition part?

3. Is it worth it to get my C & R if I'm only going to buy three to four firearms over the course of the next three years. I'm really wanting a Mosin, an Enfield and a K31?

4. If after three years I decide not to renew my license do I have to go through a special process or do I just not put in a renewal request?

Any other information would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to start my own collection and getting my C & R would seem to be a good choice, but I really am concerned as far as the record keeping in case I ever was to be audited.
I know this is long, but thank you for reading and answering my questions.
BP

[SAnd]

These guys seem to have a lot of information and links.

http://www.cruffler.com/

If you feel like beating yor head against a wall the BATFE is here

http://www.atf.gov/

It can get frustrateing to find the answers there but you can download the regs and ruling letters and other info there,

HTH

[bimmer]

why do you need a C&L to buy the guns you listed?

[ray1970]

why do you need a C&L to buy the guns you listed?

Probably so he can save a few dollars by not having to pay the mark-up for the middle man (FFL dealer) and he can buy them direct from the distributor/importer and have the guns shipped straight to his house..... just a guess.

[bullpup]

Yes I would like to cut out the middle man in the process of obtaining these old rifles.
BP

[Zman]

Just got mine (finally) last month. It was in a "hold" basket because I put my old business name in the "business" box on the application, and after calling a second time, the app showed up for me to confirm I would NOT be doing any business. So after I clarified that little nugget, in the mail it was.

Sooooo.... after thought, don't put a business name on the application.

Otherwise, was simple to get on Midway's and Graf's dealer access.

Z

[relichunter]

Please correct me if I understood this wrong

1. having a C&R requires you to log in all of your CR firearms whether you bought them with the license or not

2. gives the BATF the right to enter your home and examine your collection at will.

Is this correct? If so buying 3 rifles a year may not be worth the extra liability.

[roman gnome]

2. gives the BATF the right to enter your home and examine your collection at will.

It was my understanding that if there was an issue they would contact you and set a meeting at their office. But it's been a long time.

To me it really does pay for itself. YMMV

[relichunter]

I found this info in another thread. It sounds like it answers the question about entering a home and about keeping a book: http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19069

Quote from MuzzleFlash

If you have a C&R license (not a permit, there is no such thing) then you need to get in touch with ATF regs. You are required to maintain an A&D book. There are record retention requirements. Did you know that? Do you have a A&D book or suitable electronic record? If not, Brownells is a good place to buy one. You can be audited just like a commercial FFL but you have the option of telling the ATF that you want the audit to happen on their premises, not yours. You don't have a business premises like commercial FFLs so you can conduct transfers in places we can't. Your license won't show up in the ATF's FFL ezCheck. There's much more.

[CrufflerSteve]

Another good feature used to be that many suppliers like Brownell's, Midway and others would give dealer pricing to C&R FFL's. I don't know if that is still true but it does sort of make sense. If you deal with old guns you'll be reloading and getting parts and tools.

Steve

[AGC]

Please correct me if I understood this wrong

1. having a C&R requires you to log in all of your CR firearms whether you bought them with the license or not

2. gives the BATF the right to enter your home and examine your collection at will.

Is this correct? If so buying 3 rifles a year may not be worth the extra liability.


1. No. You are required to log, in your "bound book," any C&R firearms that you acquire or dispose of WHILE you are a licensee. That means if you have a weapon that is a C&R (on the C&R list, or over 50 years old) that you bought before you had a C&R FFL and you decide to sell it, give it away, etc, you need to enter it in your bound book and then log it out of the bound book showing its disposition. Likewise, any C&R weapons you acquire---whether or not you use your C&R FFL to purchase them---need to be logged into your bound book.

Guns that aren't C&Rs don't go in the book.

Antiques (pre-1899 manufacture) don't go in the book.

C&Rs that you acquired before you had a C&R FFL don't go in the book, unless and until you dispose of them while you have the C&R FFL.

2. BATFE can inspect your records and those C&R weapons that are logged in your bound book once per year. They need to notify you of the inspection and you have the right to have the inspection take place at the local BATFE office rather than your home. In general, it is never a good idea to allow a Federal agent into your home without a warrant. Nor is it a good idea to allow them access to guns that have nothing to do with your C&R FFL. Inspections are uncommon. If you're contacted by BATFE to schedule an inspection I would strongly recommend doing the inspection at their offices.

The "extra liability" involved with the C&R FFL is pretty minor. Log new C&R acquisitions into your bound book as soon as you take possession of them---there are .pdfs available for the bound book pages that have boxes for the necessary information---and log any dispositions out, recording the information about the disposition. When your FFL expires after 3 years you do not need to send the records in to the BATFE as retail dealer FFLs need to do. Just toss them in the shredder or otherwise dispose of them as you like. If you decide to keep your FFL I would suggest allowing it to lapse and then submitting a new application after a month or two. In that case your bound book starts over empty, with less chance of any paperwork errors that could cause you problems.

[Defensive Armament]

I too was think of getting a C&R but was persuaded by a friend not to. He applied for one and before his check had cleared the BATFE had contacted him to inspect his safes and the current firearms in his possession. According to my friend he informed the agent that his check hadnt cleared and he was canceling his application and stopping payment on the check so that he could keep the BATFE out of his business (personal business not actual business).

My questions are:


Can the BATFE do that? I know in the previous posts it says that you can request that the log book inspection take place at the BATFE office instead of your home. However, can the BATFE deny your request and come in your house? Can they or will they come to inspect your firearms?
Do C&R holders have to have a certain type of approved safe and storage method?
Could my friend have misinterpreted the agent?


Has anyone here held a C&R for any length of time? If so, what has been your experience?

[AGC]

I too was think of getting a C&R but was persuaded by a friend not to. He applied for one and before his check had cleared the BATFE had contacted him to inspect his safes and the current firearms in his possession. According to my friend he informed the agent that his check hadnt cleared and he was canceling his application and stopping payment on the check so that he could keep the BATFE out of his business (personal business not actual business).

My questions are:
Can the BATFE do that? I know in the previous posts it says that you can request that the log book inspection take place at the BATFE office instead of your home. However, can the BATFE deny your request and come in your house? Can they or will they come to inspect your firearms?
Do C&R holders have to have a certain type of approved safe and storage method?
Could my friend have misinterpreted the agent?Has anyone here held a C&R for any length of time? If so, what has been your experience?


#1: No, BATFE can't just come in your house and inspect your guns whenever they please. Until you have a C&R FFL, you are not a licensee, meaning BATFE does not have the authority to make any sort of inspection in that case.

There have been reports of BATFE conducting interviews of C&R FFL applicants in the NYC area, but I haven't heard of any such being done elsewhere. They have no authority to inspect either safes or currently owned firearms in any case.

BATFE is very limited as to the frequency and depth of the compliance inspection they can make if you have a C&R FFL. They can make one inspection per year. It can be either at your license address of record (ie, your home) or the local BATFE office. The choice is yours, not BATFE's. They can inspect your bound book at that time, and the firearms that are recorded in the bound book---that is to say any C&R firearms that you have acquired while holding that active C&R FFL.

Compliance inspections of C&R FFLs are very rare; most folks never get inspected, though the rate appears to have increased slightly in the last few years. In the unlikely event you're picked for an inspection, I would suggest contacting the BATFE office in question and making an appointment to do the inspection there. Ask them if they want you to bring in the C&R guns that are in your bound book. Then review your bound book and make sure that all of the necessary information has been recorded accurately.

BATFE's authority to conduct inspections is spelled out in the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations. Going by memory, the law is in Title 18 of the US Code; 18 USC 920 or 921 or thereabouts, and the regulations are at 27 CFR 465 or 475? Both the USC and CFR are online at multiple locations. There's probably even a link directly from the BATFE website?

#2. No. Secure storage is a very good idea, but there is no legal requirement and BATFE does not have any authority to enforce any such.

#3. Most likely, yes.

[blacklions]

Great info +1


Thank you!

[Defensive Armament]

Thanks AGC!!

[sneakerd]

WOW!!!! Thanks AGC for your earlier entry. My C&R just lapsed and I had decided to let it do so, thus cutting one of the ties between me and that gov't monitoring agency. Nice to know I can just destroy the records, I wasn't sure of that. THANKS!!!

[Cofaler]

Good luck. I submitted my ap about three months ago and haven't heard a peep. Emailed last week and no response. I have a friend who submitted his renewal over a year ago, they charged his credit card LAST February and all he gets is the runaround on the phone. It seems Barry Hussein has the girls dragging their feet a bit....