View Full Version : Self defense ......or not?
litewavve
03-25-2010, 10:15
Scenario: Your car is being rammed on a highway, and your two-year old daughter is in the back seat. You have a pistol with you.
What do you do now?
DUMFRIES -- Tempers flared and gunfire erupted on southbound Interstate 95 during Tuesday's evening rush hour.
State police said the driver of a car fired at least 13 shots at a dump-truck driver after miles of aggressive driving through Woodbridge.
It started when the driver of a dump truck was attempting to merge into the southbound lanes of I-95 from state Route 123 and encountered a car. The drivers of the two vehicles began driving aggressively, state police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said. While heading south on I-95, the dump truck struck the car two times, she said.
As they approached mile marker 159, the two vehicles ended up on the left shoulder and pinned against the jersey wall. At 4:23 p.m., police said, the driver of the car got out of his car -- leaving his 2-year-old daughter inside -- and started firing a handgun at the dump truck. The truck driver pulled away into traffic. His truck was hit by at least four of the 13 rounds fired by the car's driver, Geller said.
The car driver then followed after the dump truck. Trooper B.W. Coleman stopped both drivers at mile marker 154.
The car driver, 25-year-old Gabriel Poventud, is charged with child endangerment, attempted homicide and weapons charges, state police said. He and his daughter were not injured.
The dump-truck driver, 44-year-old James Bringham of Woodbridge, is charged with reckless driving. He was not injured.
State police had no reports of other vehicles struck by gunfire.
From another Newspaper: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/traffic-accident/shots-fired-on-i-95-in-apparen.html?hpid=newswell
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons
litewavve
03-25-2010, 10:33
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons[ROFL2]
Bailey Guns
03-25-2010, 10:34
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons
At a target the size of a dump truck, no less. I would take a lot of lessons.
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons
especially on a dumptruck
driver of the car should have pulled out to protect his daughter and get away from the dump truck...not like the truck will keep up with him.
the dump truck driver should be charged with attempted vehicular manslaughter (something along those lines) since (according to the story) he was hitting the car purposely.
sounds like a big case of reckless driving on both accounts where they should both lose their licenses for good, and the shooter should get some prison time and have his right to bear arms stripped away since he can't hit shit and obviously can't make sound judgement.
I've thought of this before. Both drivers escalated the situation and this was not a situation of self-defense. He should have just stopped his car instead of continuing on with the pissing contest. They both acted extremely dangerously. I think the dump truck driver should have more serious charges.
newracer
03-25-2010, 10:56
Not self defense. He fired at the dump truck after both vehicles were stopped, the threat at that point was gone.
sabot_round
03-25-2010, 11:06
I've thought of this before. Both drivers escalated the situation and this was not a situation of self-defense. He should have just stopped his car instead of continuing on with the pissing contest. They both acted extremely dangerously. I think the dump truck driver should have more serious charges.
^^^^^THIS^^^^^
pr1ncess45
03-25-2010, 12:02
What self defense? I think not. Should have pulled over then called police. Dump truck driver only weapon was his damn truck. Come on why would that be any means to draw your wepon or even discharge it.I am glad his child was unharmed. Yes he does need lessons alot of them.
litewavve
03-25-2010, 13:25
From various news sources, the facts seem to be
1. The Jaguar was on south I-95 (two-lane) when the truck merged into it.
2. It was 4pm in early rush hour. The two drivers were both aggressive. The Jaguar driver's two-year old daughter was on board.
3. The trunk hit the Jaguar twice and pinned it against the jersey wall.
4. The Jaguar driver came out firing at the truck.
5. The truck fled, but Jaguar pursued
6. They were both pulled off 4 miles later
7. Both were charged with 2nd degree attempted murder
It is true that if the Jaguar driver did not need to insisting on right of the way, which he had. But being an jerk should not mean that he crossed the line.
#3 was a major escalation of the the event. Being in that situation, I would be scared too. I had nowhere to go and my daughter was in the car.
I would not do #4, unless the truck driver came out with a steel bar. But again, if I were on the jury, I would take into consideration of the threats the truck driver had shown up to that point.
Being pinned against the wall is getting close to the line for me, but I wouldn't get out of my car to leave my daughter in there. If the guy got out of his truck with some weapon, AND I couldn't get my car out of dodge, then I'd consider drawing. However, I would never have been in the same situation given these same facts, because I never would have allowed (nor assisted) in letting the situation escalate like this. Being aggressive is welcoming trouble, not avoiding it. I'm glad the truck driver also got attempted murder.
Batteriesnare
03-25-2010, 13:41
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons
At least! Dear God!
Being pinned against the wall is getting close to the line for me, but I wouldn't get out of my car to leave my daughter in there.
I don't have kids so I am sure I will get corrected or flammed but, Getting out of the car and leaving the kid in the car seems safer! I don't want the truck driver getting out and coming up to my car. I want to prevent him from getting close to any passengers. NOt saying all his other actions were justified. Just thinking that I would never want someone I am protecting between me and the threat. I would want them to my rear further away.
If you get out of the car, you have just eliminated all possible ways of protecting your kid that is strapped into the car seat, except for shooting a person who otherwise wasn't any where near your kid.
If you get out of the car, you have just eliminated all possible ways of protecting your kid that is strapped into the car seat, except for shooting a person who otherwise wasn't any where near your kid.
I still dont think you have eliminated all possible ways of protecting. You have elimitated any vehicular ways. And I don't think the only option left is shooting at him if you are out of your vehicle.
JMO
I guess the point is that getting out of your vehicle is only voluntarily putting yourself into danger. The cops should have been called long before any of this stuff happened. The fact that this took place over miles and minutes shows that it was not self defense.
true.... still doesn't mean it isn't in some way protecting the daughter.
True....
Just playing devils advocate [Coffee]
The fact that this took place over miles and minutes shows that it was not self defense.
I would be careful with that statement as not to limit self defense to a time or distance constraint. I agree that he did the wrong thing, but defending one's self (if that is how it is ruled) can not fit into a mold or box of time standards or mileage restrictions.
litewavve
03-25-2010, 14:23
I guess the point is that getting out of your vehicle is only voluntarily putting yourself into danger. The cops should have been called long before any of this stuff happened. The fact that this took place over miles and minutes shows that it was not self defense.
It actually happened very quickly. The truck came in from exit 160, within a mile at mark 159, the Jaguar was pinned to the wall. At mark 154, both men were stopped by the police. The papers said that the whole episode lasted 20 minutes.
There was an unconfirmed accusation that the Jaguar driver waved the pistol to truck driver before the truck driver decided to ram the Jaguar. Emphasize "Unconfirmed."
I know what you mean, but when this guy continued to instigate this for miles and minutes, it goes out the window. I understand that this could have turned into a real self-defense situation, but in this case, it didn't.
SA Friday
03-25-2010, 14:50
So, the car couldn't outrun a dump truck? Guess Mad Max the dump truck driver dropped a serious big block in that thing with some NO2...
No way self defense.
I just want to make it clear that I'm basing my opinions strictly based on THIS situation. We could go all day making up other things, but in this particular one, like my protege Fryday has suggested, no way self defense.
Well,, Not knowing how "bad" rush hour was, I'll say this.. If driving a Jag and you can't put one hell of piece of real estate between yourself and a dump truck, Chances are, you are looking for something to escalate..
You don't even have to run away either. It's hard to ram another car in rush hour if they stopped and pulled over behind you.
litewavve
03-25-2010, 15:05
So, the car couldn't outrun a dump truck? Guess Mad Max the dump truck driver dropped a serious big block in that thing with some NO2...
No way self defense.
It was in the onset of rush hours. The average speed was 30 miles/hour on highway, much slower near entrances. It probably started when the Jaguar driver did not allow the truck to merge before him.
Tenets of self defense as justification: Clear and immediate danger, which is subject to opinion in this case, as there was clear escalation on both sides, and no evidence of any attempt to defuse the situation. The truck driver had already demonstrated that he was willing and able to act violently, so the driver of the Jag has that going for him, even after they came to a stop.
The other criteria for self defense involves a reasonable expectation to flee if it is safe, as castle doctrine does not extend to protecting your lane position on the Interstate(something drivers on I-25 should be reminded of). The Jag driver was under no obligation to yield right of way to the truck driver, but the entire situation could have been avoided had he done so. Driving aggressively would fall under the category of provocation, and would seem to strip him of any reasonable self defense claim.
Besides, marksmanship that bad SHOULD be criminal.....[LOL]
I say that justice is served by putting both of these hotheads in the clink.
I
SA Friday
03-25-2010, 15:29
I've traveled in rush hour traffic in London, Seoul, San Fran, Sacramento, Denver, Cinnci, DC, and Madrid. If you are moving at 30, there's room to get over and away for a Jag. Probably not the dump truck.
No way self defense.
a latino with a gun, too much machismo and no sense at all.
litewavve
03-25-2010, 16:27
I've traveled in rush hour traffic in London, Seoul, San Fran, Sacramento, Denver, Cinnci, DC, and Madrid. If you are moving at 30, there's room to get over and away for a Jag. Probably not the dump truck.
No way self defense.
Since there was a child on board, there is no question that the young father should de-escalate and disengage.
But if there was no child on board, don't you have the right to stand your ground even at the risk of escalation? I don't mean that it is a wise thing to do. But wisdom can't be expected from all people all the time.
KevDen2005
03-25-2010, 16:27
4 hits from 13 rounds....I would take lessons
That was also my first reaction...[UZI]
At a target the size of a dump truck, no less. I would take a lot of lessons.
I would get my perscription checked
But if there was no child on board, don't you have the right to stand your ground even at the risk of escalation?
In traffic? No. Every driver has the explicit duty to do everything in their power to make traffic flow smoothly and most importantly, avoid causing an accident. The Jag driver doesn't necessarily have any duty to let the truck merge, but he DOES have a duty to avoid auto accidents and that puts them both at fault. However, if I got assigned this claim I would put the dump truck driver at 100% fault since he was the one changing lanes. I might toy with the idea that the Jag driver had the last possible chance to avoid collision, but probably not.
buffalobo
03-25-2010, 16:32
IMO, the jag driver had a responsibility to get his daughter out of that situation immediately with out escalating it. Engaging in aggressive driving with a dump truck seems pretty stupid if you want to protect your children.
In this case claim of self defense is lame. Both parties should be charged.
KevDen2005
03-25-2010, 16:34
IMO, the jag driver had a responsibility to get his daughter out of that situation immediately with out escalating it. Engaging in aggressive driving with a dump truck seems pretty stupid if you want to protect your children.
In this case claim of self defense is lame. Both parties should be charged.
I can second that...there is no need to put your children into harms way further if it can be avoided. Was there an opportunity to get a good vehicle description, license plate, location of occurrence, and could he identify the driver. It would be a different story if the dump truck was ramming the guy and the guy was trying to get away and couldn't.
Since there was a child on board, there is no question that the young father should de-escalate and disengage.
But if there was no child on board, don't you have the right to stand your ground even at the risk of escalation? I don't mean that it is a wise thing to do. But wisdom can't be expected from all people all the time.
There's a definite line between "standing your ground" and deliberate provocation. This asshat tap danced right across it. I stand by my earlier comment that both of these idiots belong in the clink.
SA Friday
03-25-2010, 18:54
But if there was no child on board, don't you have the right to stand your ground even at the risk of escalation?
Not really, no. If you have an option that de-esclates the stuation, you have to attempt that avenue of resolution first unless you can prove that attempting that avenue would put your life in greater danger.
i.e.: You are standing on a bridge and a guy is coming at you 40 yards away with a knife. You can run down the street, jump over the bridge side, or stand and fight. If you jump over the side, you get seriously hurt or die. If you run down the street, you could escape. You stand and fight, one or both gets hurts or dies. If you draw your gun and shoot him, a case could be made you disregarded an avenue of de-esclation. If you run down the street and he's catching you, now you turn - draw - and shoot him. There is no case against you.
Same situation but the guy has a gun. running down the street would put you in jeopardy of getting shot in the back. There is no case against you if you drew and shot him.
These are hypatheticals and very general in nature, but I've had more than one conversation like this with a prosecutor when we were trying to figure out if charges were going to be brought against a subject of one of my investigations. You never hurt yourself legally when you can show you attempted other options to de-exclate a violent confrontation. It negates proof of mens rea of the crime.
funkfool
03-25-2010, 19:25
Once the threat is over/gone - you must not re-engage.
The truck driver pulled away into traffic.
Then:
The car driver then followed after the dump truck.
You become the aggressor.
Call the authorities, report and be safe with your child.
theGinsue
03-26-2010, 01:26
I've thought of this before. Both drivers escalated the situation and this was not a situation of self-defense. He should have just stopped his car instead of continuing on with the pissing contest. They both acted extremely dangerously. I think the dump truck driver should have more serious charges.
+1 The guy is driving a dump truck and crashed into the car at least twice. Dump truck vs car - hmmm. By my math the dump truck driver definitely had the ability to KILL both occupants of the car. He should definitely be facing more serious charges
Seamonkey
03-26-2010, 07:51
I can second that...there is no need to put your children into harms way further if it can be avoided. Was there an opportunity to get a good vehicle description, license plate, location of occurrence, and could he identify the driver. It would be a different story if the dump truck was ramming the guy and the guy was trying to get away and couldn't.
I don't have any kids but I'd like to think my first thoughts would be to get the kid out of harms way not chase some jerk down.
Depending on the number of cars on the road I'm also wondering how a Jaguar was tagged by a dump truck.
KevDen2005
03-26-2010, 17:20
I don't have any kids but I'd like to think my first thoughts would be to get the kid out of harms way not chase some jerk down.
Depending on the number of cars on the road I'm also wondering how a Jaguar was tagged by a dump truck.
I used to live in that area before moving back to Colorado and know exactly the interchange they are talking about...my only thought is that everyone is a f-ing moron out there and some of the worst drivers I have ever seen
Seamonkey
03-27-2010, 07:33
I used to live in that area before moving back to Colorado and know exactly the interchange they are talking about...my only thought is that everyone is a f-ing moron out there and some of the worst drivers I have ever seen
Is that the Lorton exit? I used to live in Fairfax and trying to remember the exit in the story.
And the local drivers are fine, it's all you out-of-state people who can't drive!!! [ROFL1]
ChunkyMonkey
03-27-2010, 08:46
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IxGaUGlTIWU/SLRWmWLHVUI/AAAAAAAAChk/uVRJxY6ozic/s400/2008.03.17gangsta.jpg
Both failed, in this instant, I think the father should be in more trouble. Poor 2 year old kid is the real loser either way...
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