9mm subsonic

[spencerhenry]

i have been working on developing a subsonic 9mm load. with supersonic ammo, the can doesnt appear to do much. obviously it does what it does regardless of velocity but the sonic crack is loud enough that at close range no one will mistake the noise.
i am loading 147gr plated bullets with blue dot. i have tried 4.5gr, 5.0 gr, and 5.5gr. they are all subsonic and quiet out of the glock 17, but only the 5.5gr load will cycle the gun. the difficulty comes with trying to get the same load to function in a glock, but also in a 9mm ar15. the AR will function will all of the loads, but is clearly supersonic with the 5.5gr load. it is probably too much to ask for, but has anyone been successful in getting a load that is subsonic in a 16" barrel to cycle a glock?

[Hoser]

Switch to a faster powder. Blue Dot is waaaaay slow.

[spencerhenry]

are you saying you have experience with my objective, or are you just saying you dont think blue dot is a good powder for this cartridge/ bullet combination.

blue dot is a slow powder, which makes it a good powder for large bullets. a faster burning powder requires a very small charge. i have experimented with unique for this load but velocities were extremely erratic. variation of velocity was in some instances over 10%. a fast powder with a 147gr bullet could possible achieve my goal by reaching max velocity in a very short barrel. however that means that to be subsonic out of the rifle barrel the bullet would have to reach max velocity in the first few inches of barrel, and then not increase velocity during the rest of the barrel. that means that the bullet is most likely going to be slowing down as it travels down the barrel. while that may work, it is quite possible problematic. it probably would cause erratic velocities, and GREATLY increases the possibility that a bullet gets stuck in the barrel.

so again i ask, has anyone tried to achieve my goal of subsonic in a 16" barrel while also having the power to cycle a glock 17 with a LID and a can.

[Graves]

How about trying a lighter spring?

[Circuits]

The only load I've personally fired which is both subsonic from a 16" AR conversion, and will still cycle my glocks is 158gr IMI "blue tip" subsonic. Others have had good luck with 147gr "Special K" subsonic, which does cycle glocks, but I haven't personally shot and chronoed any from a 16" to verify it's still subsonic - though it *is* subsonic from a 10.5" AR barrel.

I've since chopped my 9mm upper to 10.5", so can't do any live testing at 16" any more.

[spencerhenry]

cycling a glock without a can is one thing, cycling with a can is yet another. i havent yet tried a lighter recoil spring, but i will soon. the barrel on the glock has to drop at the rear to cycle, the L.I.D. disengages the barrel from the can so that the weight of the can isnt counteracting the barrel's need to drop. the LID uses up some of the energy that would normally cycle the gun. it may be that it is not possible.

[Circuits]

158gr blue tip with an AAC Evo9 (built-in LID) cycles fine on a G26, with a threaded G19 barrel installed.

[SA Friday]

What's happening is what Hoser alluded to. Blue Dot is a fairly slow burning powder for a 9mm load. By speed up the burn ratio of the powder you use, you are making less gas behind the bullet. If your burn is concluding at the end of the barrel or even in the silencer in the SMG, the bullet is accellerating the whole length of the barrel and silencer. In comparison, the same round is burning way past the length provided by the G17.

Going to a faster powder will allow you to shorten the burn length/time to accomidate the G17 and then test these in the SMG for acceptable accuracy, reliability, and velocity. I suspect if you change to a faster powder like Titegroup (3.4 gr with a MG 147gr bullet is about 915 fps out of my G17), you will get a powerful enough round to cycle the G17 subsonically. It should also have enough gas to cycle the SMG and still stay subsonic.

I would do two things: test some rounds with 3.2 to 3.5gr of Titegroup in both guns, and change to an ISMI 15 lb recoil spring in the G17 and test for reliability.

[spencerhenry]

i have alot of reloading manuals, but there is limited data for 147gr bullets. i tried some work with unique in my first attempts. but the velocities were all over the place. until recently i never loaded for small pistol cartridges, so my in stock powder choices are limited. where are you guys getting data for the powders you are talking about?

[NukeRJ]

Try clays as well. One of the fastest powders. Your description of how a LID works is incorrect. Also known as a neilsen device. When u fire the pistol. The gases impact the baffles, which then push the suppressor body and baffle stack forward fractions of an inch. The spring in the LID is then compressed storing the energy from the gas expulsion, once the forward velocity of the gas has dissipated, the springs calculated tension returns the suppressor body back to the original position. That action gives a small slam to the barrel aiding in unlocking the breech allowing the remaining recoil energy to complete the recoil cycle. Every pistol with a browning style locking breech requires a LID if the can weighs more than 14oz.(can be more or less depending on other factors) The berretta can operate without an LID if the can weight does not exceed 22ozs in most configurations. The hk p7 has no real limitation. Nor does any blowback operated system. Hence the reason ur carbine works so well. Ppk's and mak's make great suppressed pistols because of this physics fact as well as the p7

[SA Friday]

Mostly experimentation with fast powders and heavy bullets for competition shooting. The combination results in soft shooting ammo that causes the sight picture to return faster. The Tightgroup info I gave you is staple food for production USPSA shooters. We usually load the round longer than book though. I would recommend a OAL of 1.125. It feed in the G17 like water at that length. I suspect it will load and shoot at that length in the SMG too. The data for titegroup with 147's is on their web site http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp.

I DON'T recommend clays. It's very sensitive to case capacity. One round sets back in the case and you blow the gun. I know some who use clays religiously in 40, but they all load for guns that will take 10mm length rounds. Loading 40 cal and 9mm with clays at Glock OAL's can be problematical.

[Hoser]

3.5 gns titegroup under a 147 gn bullet.

Cycles my G-17 with AAC can just fine and stays subsonic just fine out of a AR.

If you want to stick with a slow burning powder like Blue Dot, knock yourself out. The pressure curve is too slow and when it does spike, its erratic. Been there done that. Faster powders are also quieter as there is less gas to cool.

Faster powders will generate their max pressure in a short barrel and cycle a handgun with can attached yet they will still cycle a recoil operated rifle. I even shoot 124s subsonic through my G-17 and AR.

[Hannu]

I have experimented with 147gr & 3N38 with 12.5" and 16" carbines, 3N38 is somewhat close to Blue Dot. It does not work with subsonic loads.

If you want to get decent muzzle velocity variance and hit something, you need a powder that keeps pressure level up at certain level all the time bullets travels down the bore.
Problem with very degressive powders is, bullets speeds up and then starts to speed down inside the bore. Speeding down is usually not very uniform happening, especially after few rounds with jacketed bullets when barrel gets dirty.
What you want, is that the bullet is not slowing down inside the bore.

You can also avoid uncomfortable bullet-stuck-in-the-bore situation with dirty barrel, when using more progressive powder. Before you have time to ask, I can tell you of course I have done it [Bang]

Plated bullets are somewhat easier. I got best results with H&N 145gr bullets, H&N has some kind of polymer coating on copper to reduce friction.

I would develop different loads for different guns, but I am often too picky :)
For pistol, Titegroup is nice with 147gr. Clays is really nice, but as SA Friday said, do not try it with Glock.

For Carbine, something like Universal, N330 or something close. If you know what you are doing, you get probably best accuracy with Power Pistol, N350 etc.

But if you shoot tin cans at 10 yd, it really does not matter :)

[NukeRJ]

The information on clays in glocks is interesting as I have been using it for years in 9mm with no issues. Then again I seat the bullet deep and it was for sig and mp5's. I have even used it in 5.56 with 80gr hornady seated backwards all the way to the boattail and cycles a 14 in suppressed ar just fine. Odd that a glock would have safety issues running on it. Never heard that. Do you have a site or reference I can look up. ?

[SA Friday]

The information on clays in glocks is interesting as I have been using it for years in 9mm with no issues. Then again I seat the bullet deep and it was for sig and mp5's. I have even used it in 5.56 with 80gr hornady seated backwards all the way to the boattail and cycles a 14 in suppressed ar just fine. Odd that a glock would have safety issues running on it. Never heard that. Do you have a site or reference I can look up. ?
There are multiple strings on the forum at BrianEnos.com about it. It's not just a Glock issue. It's any 9mm and 40 where you can't load excessively long. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just relating it's a very case capacity sensitive powder. If you don't have set-back issues, you will probably be fine. If you have the potential to get a little set-back on a round when it chambers, you can have a kaboom faster with the Clays in those calibers as they have a lot less case capacity in comparison to say 45 ACP where Clays just shines. This seems to rear it's ugly head right after a bullet change. Some bullets just move more, more slippery per se. I've seen it with rounds that were chambered multiple times too. Conversely, Titegroups seems to not spike as bad if there is a little set-back when chambering. It's very forgiving in comparison to it's case capacity. TG generates a hell of a lot more heat in the gun though.

If it works for you, cool. I have seem very experienced reloaders reload outside the norm very effectively and safely. I have dabbled in that relm a bit myself too, but I get a little shy with that info on the blogs. I stick to the safer stuff as I just never know the level of reloader that might try the info and not understand the dangers.

[Hannu]

Continuing SA Fridays comment little further.

People loading ammo with Clays for Practical shooting, for example 9mm Hornady 147gr FMJ + Clays + 1.12" col = pressure usually between 45.000 - 50.000 PSI, closely comparable to 9mm Major. Same thing with .40 180gr + Clays + 1.12" col.

It is no problem in pistols having a chamber with reasonable dimensions. However, for example, most Glock pistols have very loose chamber dimensions to make guns work reliably with factory ammo. Glock is really not the only one, but it seems to be pretty popular brand.
Loose chamber + high pressure = broken case, before or after. It all depends, what kind of brass you use, how many times you reload it, if you do have set-back issues....

If you load mild ammo with Clays and keep the pressure level down, it works just as any other powder. As long as you have your first set-back issue... In fact, Clays works very nicely in 9mm mild loads or low pressure rounds, like .45 ACP.

[MED]

i have been working on developing a subsonic 9mm load. with supersonic ammo, the can doesnt appear to do much. obviously it does what it does regardless of velocity but the sonic crack is loud enough that at close range no one will mistake the noise.
i am loading 147gr plated bullets with blue dot. i have tried 4.5gr, 5.0 gr, and 5.5gr. they are all subsonic and quiet out of the glock 17, but only the 5.5gr load will cycle the gun. the difficulty comes with trying to get the same load to function in a glock, but also in a 9mm ar15. the AR will function will all of the loads, but is clearly supersonic with the 5.5gr load. it is probably too much to ask for, but has anyone been successful in getting a load that is subsonic in a 16" barrel to cycle a glock?

I used a lot of Blue Dot 20 years ago in my .357. Great performance in a Magnum but Dirty.

4.4 to 4.7gr of HS6 should fit your need. This is not my first choice for unsupressed 9mm handgun with 147gr bullet weights, but should give you pretty good reliable dual purpose sub-sonic results in both platforms. It is also a pretty low pressure load so you have some room to adjust the charge, seat, and taper crimp for the best results. Buy a pound and try it; it should work fairly well. However, neither the G17 or AR will be optimized by using the same load.