View Full Version : CMMG perfects the drop in AR .22 conversion.
Now it is possible to practice with full function controls using rimfire ammunition. The Pat Pending Bolt Hold Open Actuator is a 4 second drop-in component that bridges the gap between the standard AR15 bolt catch and the all new pat pending Bolt Hold Open Follower. With tens of thousands of .22 magazines out in circulation, CMMG has developed a drop-in retrofit follower and spring that simply replaces the standard follower and spring of the CMMG magazine. The low cost BHOA/BHOF gives total bolt catch/release function with absolutely no gunsmithing.
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch225.jpg
BHOA shown in down position
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch226.jpg
BHOA shown in up position
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch227.jpg
BHOA consists of simple polymer housing, steel transfer bar and roll pin. Its unique ,self locating design, makes it very easy and fast to install.
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch229.jpg
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch228.jpg
Once ammo is depleted, the top half of the BHOF shifts to engage BHOA transfer bar
http://www.cmmginc.com/22evolution/Catch2221.jpg
BHOF kit consists of fully assembled follower and retrofit spring.
Final tooling is nearing completion. We are looking at June 1st to start pushing these out in quantity.
The prices we are shooting for are:
$7.50 for the Follower and Spring
$24.95 for the Magazine with the Follower and Spring
$19.95 for the Bolt Hold Open Actuator assembly
www.cmmginc.com
Video of device installation and use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rLioM2_LJE
GhostRider
04-08-2010, 15:59
sweet!!!! I gotta get one
That's actually pretty cool. The one thing I don't like about my conversion bolt and dedicated upper - no bolt hold open. Wonder if this will work with spike's tactical bolts? Don't see why not, anyone know for sure?
very sweet! i really need to get me a .22 conversion!
That's actually pretty cool. The one thing I don't like about my conversion bolt and dedicated upper - no bolt hold open. Wonder if this will work with spike's tactical bolts? Don't see why not, anyone know for sure?
CMMG, Spikes and a couple others all use the same design that Jonathan Ciener came up with.
CMMG, Spikes and a couple others all use the same design that Jonathan Ciener came up with.
Yeah, I figure there's a 99% chance they'll all work with this. But one never knows. I know spike's uses a slightly different firing pin than the other guys.
Why not just get something like an M&P15-22? For the price it's tough to beat.
StagLefty
04-09-2010, 06:38
Why not just get something like an M&P15-22? For the price it's tough to beat.
^ #1
M&P-15/22 = $480-500?
CMMG .22 kit - $180 + you can trian for cheap with the exact same weapon you shoot .223 out of.
Why not just sack up and shoot real ammo?? [Muaha]
Why not just get something like an M&P15-22? For the price it's tough to beat.
It's a great option, but it has some drawbacks for me at least:
1) The lower isn't a real lower. Proprietary. It's not an AR, it's AR-ish.
2) Proprietary mags. The standard 22 mags will work with all known ciener bolts and rifles like the sig 522.
3) If you use a conversion bolt, you get to use/train with your normal AR.
4) No flash hinder/compensator. I know it serves no purpose with a .22 but it just looks weird without one. I dislike anything that resembles ban-era =)
The only real advantage (for me) outside of cost for the m&p15-22 was a working bolt hold open. Seems that's going to change soon.
The M&P15-22 goes for $450 and I've seen them sell used for under $400 so they're quite affordable and it's nice to have an entirely separate weapon that was designed for the ammo it shoots. My wife or a buddy can shoot it while I shoot another AR15 so it's nice to have two separate rifles. Not to mention with the M&P15-22 you can put all the same furniture on it so it looks/feels just like your .223 AR15.
You say proprietary mags yet you HAVE to buy proprietary mags to shoot .22 in a regular AR15 anyway so I don't see how this is even a factor. Not like you can go out and buy pmags to run .22LR through your AR15 so that's a wash.
The M&P22-15 is just like a standard AR15 in just about every way save for the ammo it shoots. You can get them with a standard A2 flash hider, the bolt catch is in the same place and all the functions are the same. Bolt hold open, bolt release, mag changes, upper take-down w/retained springs and internals so no parts to go flying like some of the others... it's all the same. Not like some of the other .22's this one is the same all around and even shares most of the same external parts save for the mags. For me, I would rather spend a couple hundred more and have an entirely separate rifle that acts & feels the same way then have a few replacement parts for an existing rifle so no matter what... I have only one rifle. For not too much more you can have two.
I'm just saying, it's an option.
Circuits
04-09-2010, 09:46
CMMG, Spikes and a couple others all use the same design that Jonathan Ciener came up with.
Max Atchisson invented the AR-15 .22 adapter (and the lightning link and a bunch of other firearms-related stuff). Ciener just licensed the patent and made lots of $$$ on it.
Not_A_Llama
04-09-2010, 09:49
This is awesome - I'm gonna get one.
The M&P 15-22 is a horrible training proposition. With the 22 kit, you train with *your* rifle, *your* trigger pull, *your* customizations. Lords know, I've spent far more on accessories to my rifle than the rifle itself. I'm sure as hell not spending money on another Aimpoint micro, flashlight, FF tube, and Magpul furniture for a little .22, when I can spend $200 total and shoot with a perfect "replica" of my fullpower gun.
The M&P 15-22 is a horrible training proposition.
Clearly you have your opinion and you know what they say about opinions...
HBARleatherneck
04-09-2010, 09:54
i bought my cmmg kit with 2 blackdog mags for $125 on coloradogunmarket.com
i think Bob Jensen was selling them for $150 new. probably with 1 mag, but i am not sure.
i still use the 10/22 most. ultra reliable, accurate.
my .22 conversion kit for the AR...not terribly reliable. lots of jams.
You say proprietary mags yet you HAVE to buy proprietary mags to shoot .22 in a regular AR15 anyway so I don't see how this is even a factor. Not like you can go out and buy pmags to run .22LR through your AR15 so that's a wash.
Blackdog/cmmg/cienner style mags are pretty much the defacto mag for .22 AR conversions. That mag will work with all the major conversion bolts, all the major dedicated uppers, the sig 522 and whomever else decides to use them. To use a computer term, they're an open standard. M&P15 mags only work with the that rifle, hence my use of proprietary. I have a dedicated .22 upper, a conversion bolt and plan to get a sig522. Being able to use one mag format is huge for me. But that's me. Most people could probably care less.
M&P15's are slick rifles, nothing wrong with them. I just have different wants.
my .22 conversion kit for the AR...not terribly reliable. lots of jams.
Right here is exactly my point. Sure you can adapt an existing rifle to do this but my experience has been that the reliability decreases substantially. This was my reason for asking why not just get a rifle that was designed for that purpose? From some of the statements being made I think it's a fair assumption to say that those that are so against it haven't fully researched the newer stuff that's out...namely the M&P15-22. I'm not a fan of some of the other offerings for many reasons but this rifle really got it right IMO and fills that need perfectly.
my .22 conversion kit for the AR...not terribly reliable. lots of jams.
Jams as in spent casings stuck in the chamber? If so, I had that prob as well. Check your extractor. If a round won't stay on the bolt face when you turn it horizontal, replace or fix the extractor. Once I did that reliability went way up.
Blackdog/cmmg/cienner style mags are pretty much the defacto mag for .22 AR conversions. That mag will work with all the major conversion bolts, all the major dedicated uppers, the sig 522 and whomever else decides to use them. To use a computer term, they're an open standard. M&P15 mags only work with the that rifle, hence my use of proprietary. I have a dedicated .22 upper, a conversion bolt and plan to get a sig522. Being able to use one mag format is huge for me. But that's me. Most people could probably care less.
We're in agreement though that no matter if you use a conversion or a dedicated 22 rifle you are going to be buying a more rare mag that is proprietary to that rifle as in you can't swap it between your other AR15's which is where the price savings and selection comes from. That's the point I was making. I got a few mags for my M&P15-22 for cheap and that's all I need. They work well and I didn't find myself saying 'Damn I wish Magpul made mags for this' because it wasn't necessary.
M&P15's are slick rifles, nothing wrong with them. I just have different wants.
I can respect that and that's all I was trying to do was open a dialog to find out why some chose what they chose. I wasn't condescending or negative with my post asking why not a dedicated rifle... just curious.
Jams as in spent casings stuck in the chamber? If so, I had that prob as well. Check your extractor. If a round won't stay on the bolt face when you turn it horizontal, replace or fix the extractor. Once I did that reliability went way up.
I'll go as far as saying that I haven't found a conversion kit for any firearm that I like. All of them lower the reliability of the firearm and all of them are a bandaid fix for the real solution... a dedicated firearm built from the ground up for the caliber intended. This has been my experience across the board. Maybe you have different experiences than me that changes the outlook on this topic. That's all I'm saying.
I'll go as far as saying that I haven't found a conversion kit for any firearm that I like. All of them lower the reliability of the firearm and all of them are a bandaid fix for the real solution... a dedicated firearm built from the ground up for the caliber intended. This has been my experience across the board. Maybe you have different experiences than me that changes the outlook on this topic. That's all I'm saying.
Uh, I think we're confusing bad design with mechanical malfunction. I never had any problems with my conversion bolt. My dedicated upper had issues because of a bad extractor. And we are talking .22s here. Even the famed 10/22 will have a jam once in a while. semi-auto 22's as a class aren't known as fail-safe firearms. They're fun plinkers or training aids but not SHTF weapons. I like .22s because their fun and cheap to shoot, but I would never rely on one for my life.
Uh, I think we're confusing bad design with mechanical malfunction. I never had any problems with my conversion bolt. My dedicated upper had issues because of a bad extractor. And we are talking .22s here. Even the famed 10/22 will have a jam once in a while. semi-auto 22's as a class aren't known as fail-safe firearms. They're fun plinkers or training aids but not SHTF weapons. I like .22s because their fun and cheap to shoot, but I would never rely on one for my life.
I don't plan to trust my life to one either but that doesn't mean I don't want it to work. Every conversion I have used has caused issues of reliability and by that I mean bad design that causes mechanical malfunction. They aren't independent of each other in this discussion. I have a Glock 17 that has eaten literally tens of thousands of rounds of 9mm of any and all varieties and I never had problems with it. I have tried several different fancy .22 conversion kits for it and it's always the same thing... I spend as much time clearing malfunctions, identifying issues and taking things apart as I do actually shooting the damn thing. Same thing goes for AR15 conversion kits and others that I have tried. Personally, I really don't like using 'conversion kits' for anything because my experience has been that they are more trouble then they are worth.
So, to recap:
Glock 17: not problematic, fun and worry free to shoot
AR15: not problematic, fun and worry free to shoot
AR15-22: not problematic, fun and worry free to shoot
Glock 17 w/22 conversion: numerous malfunctions & FtF w/lots of frustration as a result. Fun to shoot when it works though.
AR15 w/22 conversion: numerous malfunctions & FtF w/lots of frustration as a result. Fun to shoot when it works though.
Not_A_Llama
04-09-2010, 10:24
Clearly you have your opinion and you know what they say about opinions...
Dude, chill. It's .22 rifles, no one really gives a fuck. Are they cutting you a commission or something?
I've owned an M&P 15-22. The AR15 + Ciener represents a substantially better value for shooters using their 22 function to train. If you just wanted a .22 to shoot, Marlin 795s are $95 at Dick's.
As for the shooter with operational issues... experiment with ammo. My conversion (and actually most of my .22 rifles) hate Remington Thunderbolt. They loooove minimags and Rem golden bullet. YMMV.
Dude, chill. It's .22 rifles, no one really gives a fuck. Are they cutting you a commission or something?
I've owned an M&P 15-22. The AR15 + Ciener represents a substantially better value for shooters using their 22 function to train. If you just wanted a .22 to shoot, Marlin 795s are $95 at Dick's.
As for the shooter with operational issues... experiment with ammo. My conversion (and actually most of my .22 rifles) hate Remington Thunderbolt. They loooove minimags and Rem golden bullet. YMMV.
I am chill I just don't like your blanket statement that the 'MP15-22 is a horrible training proposition' because I whole heartedly disagree. It's the same size, layout and functionality as a standard AR15 and replicates all functionality in every way. The only difference is felt recoil so I'm still waiting to hear why it's so horrible. I don't make a dime on them and could care less if people rush out and buy one based on what I say but, much like a Glock, 1911, AK47 or any other proven firearm out there, it irks me when people say they aren't any good w/o substantiating such claims. Tends to sway the conversation off course from actual conversation to stupid debates that nobody wins. In fact, I wouldn't have had a problem with anything else you said in the post save for that one statement that I quoted.
StagLefty
04-09-2010, 10:40
M&P-15/22 = $480-500?
CMMG .22 kit - $180 + you can trian for cheap with the exact same weapon you shoot .223 out of.
$400 in December at Sportsmans. Just saying.
Not_A_Llama
04-09-2010, 10:54
I am chill I just don't like your blanket statement that the 'MP15-22 is a horrible training proposition' because I whole heartedly disagree. It's the same size, layout and functionality as a standard AR15 and replicates all functionality in every way. The only difference is felt recoil so I'm still waiting to hear why it's so horrible. I don't make a dime on them and could care less if people rush out and buy one based on what I say but, much like a Glock, 1911, AK47 or any other proven firearm out there, it irks me when people say they aren't any good w/o substantiating such claims. Tends to sway the conversation off course from actual conversation to stupid debates that nobody wins. In fact, I wouldn't have had a problem with anything else you said in the post save for that one statement that I quoted.
http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg
Well, ok, so if you read my post instead of going on this bizarre reply-to-everyone-fest, you'd have an idea why it's not a good training proposition. With a conversion, you're shooting /literally/ with your own gun. Not a five pound bare bones plastic rifle, but honest-to-god, your own rifle. I have a Magpul CTR, Aimpoint Micro, Midlength railed handguard, TD grip, Magpul AFG, Redimag, and a Surefire flashlight. It's not an unusual setup. The S&W as it comes is *nothing* like my real gun.
I know I'm not in the minority for having customized my gun. I won't be spending an extra $1k to make the $450 M&P shoot like my real AR15, when $200 of conversion does the same job, better.
Y'know, previously, a point could have been made about the BHO functionality on the Atchissons being an issue, but with CMMG's innovations (the topic of this thread, not an M&P cheerfest), the conversion is /the/ way to go now.
HBARleatherneck
04-09-2010, 11:02
http://www.botachtactical.com/cmar22lrcoki.html
http://mactec-militaryarms.com/ciener.html
both of these sites, (and many others) sell the conversion for under $150. thats why I like the kit. I would consider a dedicated upper.
i am happy i have a Dillon 650.
http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg
Well, ok, so if you read my post instead of going on this bizarre reply-to-everyone-fest, you'd have an idea why it's not a good training proposition. With a conversion, you're shooting /literally/ with your own gun. Not a five pound bare bones plastic rifle, but honest-to-god, your own rifle. I have a Magpul CTR, Aimpoint Micro, Midlength railed handguard, TD grip, Magpul AFG, Redimag, and a Surefire flashlight. It's not an unusual setup. The S&W as it comes is *nothing* like my real gun.
I know I'm not in the minority for having customized my gun. I won't be spending an extra $1k to make the $450 M&P shoot like my real AR15, when $200 of conversion does the same job, better.
Y'know, previously, a point could have been made about the BHO functionality on the Atchissons being an issue, but with CMMG's innovations (the topic of this thread, not an M&P cheerfest), the conversion is /the/ way to go now.
Making additional AR's like your primary AR isn't hard save for optics and weapon lights. I easily and inexpensively equipped my AR15-22 w/AFG, ACS, Ergo Grip, ladder hand guards, MBUS and all the other goodies my primary AR15 has. I got one of the unthreaded bbls unfortunately so that's being threaded right now for a FH and it will also get suppressed just like my primary AR15. You see it as not being the same and I see it as being as close to the real deal as you can get.
If there is a new conversion that works better then that's what I was trying to find out when I asked why not an M&P15-22. To me, with my experience, that has been the most reliable option. You said I turned it into a cheerfest but all I was doing was looking for information. It quickly turned into an M&P bash and all I was doing was defending that which worked well for me and asking what made the other options so much better. I was actually having some good conversations (that you called a bizarre reply-to-everyone-fest) with others in this thread.
I will just bow out of this conversation since it's pretty clear I'm not going to get the information I was looking for and someone is taking my posts as a distraction rather than conversational like most others are. I guess I forgot for a moment that forums weren't for discussion.
Not_A_Llama
04-09-2010, 11:23
Making additional AR's like your primary AR isn't hard save for optics and weapon lights. I easily and inexpensively equipped my AR15-22 w/AFG, ACS, Ergo Grip, ladder hand guards, MBUS and all the other goodies my primary AR15 has. I got one of the unthreaded bbls unfortunately so that's being threaded right now for a FH and it will also get suppressed just like my primary AR15. You see it as not being the same and I see it as being as close to the real deal as you can get.
This is just weird. You can't be saying that it's "easily and inexpensively equipped" when the sentence before you're saying it's hard for optics and weapons lights. A good optic costs as much as the M&P. Your little shopping list there is about $300 of parts on top of a $450 gun. That's a lot of money. Your accessories alone are double what I paid for my setup.
Know what's easier and more inexpensive? Not having to buy anything extra or having to move a damn thing off the upper you already have.
What's closer to the real deal than a replica? The real deal. C'mon.
HBARleatherneck
04-09-2010, 12:59
i will buy the piece that Ridge Runner started the thread about. It will take the load of holding the bolt back off of the follower.
i forgot to add why I like the kit, other than price.
I move it from Ar to Ar. I have a few or more, and its nice to plink with which ever one i feel like at the time. Be it the K.I.S.S. M4gery, or maybe a midlength, or maybe the prarie dog rig.
Back to the original topic, I'd love to get one of these for the Appleseed, but its in a week, and I dont have much cash to spare after paying for a hotel room and tuneup for my car to make the trip :P
Oh well, still on my list of must gets for the near future.
Camperdavid
10-08-2011, 22:21
Hello. I'm new to the forum. I'm looking for a conversion like the Ciener or CMMG for my S&W M&P15X, so I can practice with rimfire ammo as well as the fact that I enjoy ammo interchangability between multiple arms for versitility in my bug out bag. I'm not interested in buying a separate .22 rifle for this purpose, as I dont want to carry two rifles through the bush. I'm going to try to find a deal on a second hand unit that someone is no longer using, but I want to know if there are any specific brands or models that I should avoid? I don't want to accidentally buy one with a known bad reputation. I would like to be sure to get the best unit I can, but have read conflicting info on who makes the best one and what the difference in options is. Can you advise?
Welcome to the forum!
CMMG, Spikes and the others all use the same basic design. I went with the CMMG stainless kit because a local retailer had one for sale, and the surface was easy to clean.
Hello. I'm new to the forum. I'm looking for a conversion like the Ciener or CMMG for my S&W M&P15X, so I can practice with rimfire ammo as well as the fact that I enjoy ammo interchangability between multiple arms for versitility in my bug out bag. I'm not interested in buying a separate .22 rifle for this purpose, as I dont want to carry two rifles through the bush. I'm going to try to find a deal on a second hand unit that someone is no longer using, but I want to know if there are any specific brands or models that I should avoid? I don't want to accidentally buy one with a known bad reputation. I would like to be sure to get the best unit I can, but have read conflicting info on who makes the best one and what the difference in options is. Can you advise?
i bought the brownells one.....came with 3 mags for 200 bucks they have a lifetime warranty on it which is nice because i had too return the first one after about 10000 rounds because of a broken extractor......btw anyone having reliability issues should just play around with different ammo till you find something it likes to eat
stupid question. so this is just a drop in thing, and you shoot the .22 out of the .223 barrel?
Circuits
10-09-2011, 18:23
stupid question. so this is just a drop in thing, and you shoot the .22 out of the .223 barrel?
.223 is still a .22 bore barrel, so it's not that big a deal.
A true "22LR" barrel will actually have a nominal .221 bore, vs .224 in most centerfire barrels, but the slight difference in diameter does not affect the ability of the .22 bullet to engrave the rifling, and any high pressures encountered are easily handled by the more robust centerfire barrel construction.
It's available both as a drop-in for a .223/5.56 AR/M16 or as a dedicated upper or a dedicated complete rifle.
The dedicated uppers and rifles have true 22LR 1/16 barrels, and use a collar and true .22 chamber, as opposed to the .223 chamber adapter of the drop-in conversions. They're otherwise identical.
1eyedJack
11-18-2012, 18:02
I understand the CMMG rimfire conversion is not as reliable as the parent AR 5.56 or the S&W 15-22. My question is will the CMMG fit and function with fairly good reliability in a Rock River LAR-15? I want the full weight, sights, and trigger of the RR.
Zoooombie thread!
But yeah, the conversion bolt fits right into the upper nice and snugly. It has it's own chamber extension that reaches into the bore so they don't just shoot into your chamber. They're not as accurate as .223, but it's a smaller bullet going down the bore. But they're good for short range marksmanship, and just plain trigger time.
Great-Kazoo
11-18-2012, 18:24
Ridge, for a tech savvy guy you're about 6 months late to this "new" product. BDM the magazine mfg also has a BHO mag follower that works.
Ridge, for a tech savvy guy you're about 6 months late to this "new" product. BDM the magazine mfg also has a BHO mag follower that works.
Jim, you might want to check the date of my original post...
Great-Kazoo
11-18-2012, 18:28
Jim, you might want to check the date of my original post...
MY BAD guess i picked a bad time to stop wearing glasses.
SO that's my way of saying Mea Culpa. Or for the, have no clue. latin guys (like me)
OOPS i', sorry.
DD977GM2
11-18-2012, 19:18
MY BAD guess i picked a bad time to stop wearing glasses.
SO that's my way of saying Mea Culpa. Or for the, have no clue. latin guys (like me)
OOPS i', sorry.
I also picked a bad time to stop snorting heroin !!!!!!!!!
JohnnyEgo
11-18-2012, 21:04
I know this thread has come back to the future, but the title made me giggle.
I had a first gen Ciener Kit. It broke, and because Jonathon Arthur Ciener was a douche, I had to buy another one to get the necessary parts. Mine sucked. Life got a little better when BDM came out and you could get half decent magazines. Then the patent expired, and I had the opportunity to vote with my wallet. Bought a Spikes kit and a CMMG kit. They were both incrementally better, but they never ran reliably on bulk ammo. My own opinion is that nobody has perfected the drop-in AR .22 conversion as of yet.
Ok...have to weigh in here...I bought a CMG 22lr upper (Bowers stocks them) and it works great on my "lower of choice". of course, I ended up acquiring a Plum Crazy lower just for this upper, but I didn't have to. I also acquired a Colt (Umarex) 22lr complete AR. I like them both though the CMMG upper is much easier to clean and completely functions like a regular AR. The Colt has a non-functioning Bolt release lever, but other then that works great. Both have great accuracy at 50 yds. FWIW...the CMMG BHOA has some difficulty with the polymer lower...it has more friction in the bolt latch area than the metal lowers. Takes some extra care, lubrication, and possible mods to function 100%
Great-Kazoo
11-18-2012, 23:21
I know this thread has come back to the future, but the title made me giggle.
I had a first gen Ciener Kit. It broke, and because Jonathon Arthur Ciener was a douche, I had to buy another one to get the necessary parts. Mine sucked. Life got a little better when BDM came out and you could get half decent magazines. Then the patent expired, and I had the opportunity to vote with my wallet. Bought a Spikes kit and a CMMG kit. They were both incrementally better, but they never ran reliably on bulk ammo. My own opinion is that nobody has perfected the drop-in AR .22 conversion as of yet.
The last PU/SU shoot that's all we ran on the 7.5" 22 upper. JAC Original I saved the box because i know how sentimental you are with JA:)
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