View Full Version : A gaping hole in school security or am I being an over reactive parent?
Glock Shooter
04-13-2010, 11:58
I really would like some opinions on this because I truly feel at this moment, a few hours after the incident, I'm way too emotional.
At approximately 9:40am this morning I received a phone call from my daughter's kindergarten teacher. She opened with "Your daughter is ok but I need to tell you about an incident that just happened."
This is the story she tells me: While she was in music class she asked to go to the bathroom. If she were in her regular kindergarten class there would've been a bathroom in the class, however, being music class, the bathroom was down the hall. The music teacher noticed that she was gone for a while and went to investigate. She found my daughter talking to a strange man in the hallway whom the music teacher could not identify. She quickly took my daughter back inside the class, called the office and they did what they called a "sweep" of the building not finding anyone who met the description of the stranger. Then they spoke to my daughter, and then they called me. At no time did they CALL THE POLICE to report a potential predator on school grounds, who knows how much time has passed and the chance to set up a perimeter is gone. While the teacher was on the phone with me I asked what the police had to say and when she said that they did not inform the police but that she sent an email to the principal I interrupted her, told her that this was unacceptable and that I needed to hang up and call the police, she told me that was my option but that they were not going to involve them.
I called 911 and Boulder Police were dispatched. They did a search of the area and the grounds not finding anyone who met the description of the stranger. I then received a call back from the school, the school made me feel that my daughter was partially at fault for talking to a stranger. I nearly lost it, I said she was at school, and she's supposed to be safe at school. Then they went on to tell me how they followed District Procedure. That's when I began to hit my boiling point and started requesting phone numbers of the highest administrators in the district and the person allegedly responsible for security protocols. When the Officer told me about how many people are actually granted access to the school I got sick to my stomach. I even think the school lied to the officer because they told him all visitors must sign in and that's it. But I know for a fact that in addition to signing in you must wear a VISITOR badge. He said they made absolutely no mention of any visitor badges.
I'm first and foremost so thankful to all powers that be that my little girl is safe and unharmed.....but what about the next time? Who's daughter might it be? How can the district and the school sit still now knowing they have a huge hole in their system?
I'm going to let my emotions calm before I make any phone calls or take any action as part of me just wants to call Channel 7 and turn them loose on them.
ok....I think I'm done for now. I would like your opinions, parents, non-parents, and especially the honorable men and women of Law Enforcement.
ronaldrwl
04-13-2010, 12:05
I would like to think I can say hello to a child and not have the SWAT called. What does your daughter say happened?
refryguy
04-13-2010, 12:12
ronald, unless you are supposed to be there then no SWAT is necessary. If you are not, have no visitor badge, did not sign in, and have no business being at the school then yes, police involvement should be expected.
Glock Shooter, you did exactly what you should have, calling the police. What happened in that school is COMPLETELY unacceptable and you have every right to over react when it comes to the safety of your child. I for one would do what I had to do in order to get the Principle fired for not involving the police. Completely irresponsible of them, especially if the teacher witnessed this person in the halls and they weren't supposed to be there.
Let me know if I can be of any help, as a father of four daughters I would have been down at that school in an instant and the school board would definitely be getting involved.
refryguy
04-13-2010, 12:14
BTW, you should call Channel 7 and get the media involved. That school should pay for reacting so poorly. What school was it?
Did it ever cross your mind that it might have been another kid's parent or something?
I kind of laughed when I read the title of your thread because there is no such thing as "School Security." Anyone can walk in to any school. Sure, you're not supposed to be able to, but you can. Glad your daughter is okay.
trlcavscout
04-13-2010, 12:17
I have a son in second grade this year and a daughter that will be starting soon. I have been to the schools several times over the years picking kids up, dropping off etc. School security is a joke! The sign in and visitor badge is an honor system at the front door with no one watching, everydoor on the building is unlocked so anyone can just walk in. The playground is laid out very poorly for child protection, the teacher on recess cant see half of it. Before and after school they have several teachers outside but the rest of the day is pretty scary. During after school functions they have the doors propped open with no one watching. Pretty scary stuff if you just go watch for a little while and see all the gaps.
Glad your daughter is ok!!! Blameing a kindergarten student for talking to an adult in the school is completely out of line!!! She might have thought he was a teacher or admin, he might have introduced himself as such?
refryguy
04-13-2010, 12:21
I have three in an elementary school in Cherry Creek Schools and every door is locked, including the front. Anyone visiting the school must ring a bell and be admitted by someone in the office. The doors can be opened from the inside, but its still safer than just allowing anyone entrance to the school. And everytime something like this has happened, police are involved and the school sends a notice to all the parents and the school district calls with an automated message to parents of the school and surrounding schools.
I am soooo steamed right now for what happened. Sorry if I'm ranting.
I remember a lot of guest speakers a lot as well. Reading the post, the thing that I am most surprised about is that it doesn't sound like the teacher made any attempt at asking the guy who he was. Perhaps she thought it the better plan to get back to the rest of the students and call the front office from her class room. Still wouldn't have been a big deal to ask who the hell he was.
trlcavscout
04-13-2010, 12:24
The doors should be locked from the outside, that is good. At my sons school the office cant even see the front door. And unlike the high schools the only time a cop is on school grounds is when they do a special event.
As a liscensed teacher... school security is lacking in all aspects.
When I was in elementary school, I was in Germany. The DoD school there had complete lockdown. Even the teachers had to be "buzzed" back into the building by the school security officer on a CCTV if they stepped outside for a smoke, lunch, etc. There were canine units and armed/uniform personell in the hallways and around the grounds. In class, you were not allowed (period) to use the restroom. You had to wait until the inbetween time for classes.
When we came back to the States... things were a lot different. Doors were open, no audio/video, teachers let kids leave anywhere, etc. To me, it seems like the teachers are overwhelmed with all the paperwork/administrative duties that they have to do (along with raising the kids as the majority of parents take no active role, and state mandated testing for funding) that teachers just "collect a paycheck". A lot of teachers rarely last past ten years because of the demands. They don't want to call the cops for anything because then they will have to tell the head office (not prinicipal but super) that the cops were called, they'll get a blackmark, and their ratings will go down which means less money, blahblahblah....
If you ahve any specific questions about teh school systems, etc, I'd love to answer them
Ever think it was as substitute teacher?
Talk to the teacher and request escorts to the head.
Glock Shooter
04-13-2010, 12:36
Thanks for the replies and I'd like to hear more. For clarification, the music teacher said that she did NOT recognize the stranger and actually said she felt the need to get my daughter back in the classroom.
Where was the school's SRO during this? I would bring this issue up with the school board.
iamhunter
04-13-2010, 13:37
Come on guys, it's a school, not a prison.
I understand worrying about the safety of your children, really, I do, but at what point does worry become paranoia?
I'm fairly young, and even in my lifetime I watched school evolve from something nominally enjoyable into a rigid, terrible system of rules and regulations.
Dogs? Guard Patrols? Buzzing people in?
Is that really the environment you want your kids growing up in?
One of control and fear?
Seriously, ok, so there was an unknown guy in the hall. There's dozens of different plausible reasons why he could've been there, and only ONE bad one.
I understand worrying about the safety of your children, really, I do, but at what point does worry become paranoia?
Hopefully before something happens to your own kids....
The reality is that there aren't enough staff around to baby sit every kid all day long. For how unprotected schools are (in general) I'd say it says something positive about society that hardly anything ever happens.
Come on guys, it's a school, not a prison. Well, with gangs/drugs, non-parent involvement, lack of respect of authority/elders, state/government mandates, certain laws, etc... it get's turned into a prison pretty quick.
Dogs? Guard Patrols? Buzzing people in? In my defense, I was over-seas in a military school during a tricky time in American-European diplomacy. But talk about "feeling safe", I sure did.
The reality is that there aren't enough staff around to baby sit every kid all day long.
That's the sad part, IMO. Teachers have to babysit/raise the kids instead of having the time to teach them...
ChunkyMonkey
04-13-2010, 13:57
... and the worst part of this is we still have to pay k12 tax even if our kids were in more secure private school.
I'm surprised on this being in boulder i live 5 min from there! sounds like the principle was trying to cover his or her own a#& not calling the cops cause of somthing they didn't do! just sounds very shady i am glad your daughter is ok! heck if niwot high can get on the news for having asbestos problems and getting school canceled i am kind of shocked 9 news or or channel 7 isn't at your door step asking for your comments and or calling you!
if you can give the name of the school this happend at would be nice to know, but i understand that is private information maybe more suited in Pm's.
I think you did the right thing calling the police, I would ask for a report to be written on the incident also from Boulder police and get a copy.
Each school is difffrent, my son is in a charter school and the front entrance you enter a little room and must present ID and have a valid reason to get the vistor pass and then you are beeped into the school.
I am sure someone could sneek in another entrance, heck people break out of prisons. So almost no place is absolutly secure.
If they had no pass and the school did a sweep, they should have called police.
Batteriesnare
04-13-2010, 14:40
Where was the school's SRO during this? I would bring this issue up with the school board.
SROs are worthless. Didn't the SRO at Columbine run to his car and hide waiting for back up instead of intervening? I'm rather sure he did.
I'd be on board with the schools mostly being locked and having to be buzzed in. You'd have to open up for recess, and would be a lot less realistic at a high school, but better than now and not too much like a prison.
iamhunter
04-13-2010, 14:59
If you guys want to give the school district the power to lock your children in a building, go for it, but I find it absurd.
And if that happens, how far of a stretch is it before the school district has more power over your children then you do?
What happens when they decide to strip search your thirteen year old daughter in search of "drugs" or "weapons?
Or when they send your kids home with remotely activated web cam on their computers?
Or decide to charge your child with a crime they didn't commit?
All of these things have happened, the first two in the news, and the last one to my brother.
If your answer to the problems and dangers of the world is to lock your children in a giant cage, and hand the government the key, so be it.
but keep in mind the words of one of our great founding fathers,
"Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin
SROs are worthless. Didn't the SRO at Columbine run to his car and hide waiting for back up instead of intervening? I'm rather sure he did.
That was when the idea of "Active Shooter" was ignored and procedures were containment based compared to current methods. That officer did as he was trained to do: secure the perimiter and wait for help. Training now dictates otherwise.
ronaldrwl
04-13-2010, 15:05
Geez, I've been to my kids schools a 1000 times for one thing or another. I've said hello to the neighborhood kids while there and none of the teachers would know me. Call the cops?
[quote=iamhunter;193933]If you guys want to give the school district the power to lock your children in a building, go for it, but I find it absurd. /quote]
I don't think anyone here wants to lock people IN, just keep unauthorized persons OUT. And yes, if I can not be there to guarantee their safety and I am paying for it (directly or indirectly), then lock everyone else out.
Not lock kids in, lock strangers out.
Think of it the same way as if your kids go to another kids house for a birthday party. The kids are there to party, but that doesn't mean that the parents should just let anyone into the house without finding out who they are first. I'm not a big advocate of government control (I don't think any of us are) but it seems like simply locking an external door isn't out of line and won't generate any additional costs.
Guess it would have been asking to much for the teacher to simply ask the "stranger" to ID himself.
iamhunter
04-13-2010, 15:37
It may be about keeping strangers OUT to you,
but you're locking children IN as a means to that end.
You give people an inch of power, they take a mile.
Like I pointed out previously, there are numerous examples of schools grossly abusing their power over children.
And it make me VERY hesitant to grant them ANY more control.
I grew up in a big city, and towards the end of my younger brother's high school education, his high school was more like juvenile detention than an educational institute,
and I for one find that tragic.
They should also make it so once you are old enough to get a job, then you don't have to go to school anymore. If kids want to drop out when they are 15 and their parents don't have anything to say about it, then they should let them.
Less kids that don't want to be at school = better environment for the kids that do want to be there.
ronaldrwl
04-13-2010, 15:44
But do kids really know what's best for them at 15?
Nope, but like I said, if their parents don't care enough to keep them in school they aren't going to go anyway. If the parents don't care enough, then I don't care about them either. Also, even if the kids don't know what is best for them, I'll NEVER admit that the state knows what's best for anyone, ever.
iamhunter
04-13-2010, 16:10
But do kids really know what's best for them at 15?
do most people know whats best for them even through their 20s?
do most people know whats best for them even through their 20s?
i would say i think i do![Tooth]
but than again i got friends doing nothing with there lives
refryguy
04-14-2010, 09:47
Iamhunter I think you are missing the point about locking the strangers out and not locking the kids in. Your comments regarding "locking them in as a means to an end" is a fallacy, its not related. They are not locking the kids in, I don't think you understand that, besides it would be a huge fire and safety hazard to lock the kids in. Also when you compare Highschool to Elementary or Middle School you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to the safety of kids. The cognitive abilities are smaller kids are vastly different than older kids.
I'm going to assume you don't have kids. If you had kids you would understand the concern a little better. What happened to his daughter is completely unacceptable and the security of smaller children is a primary concern for parents. As a parent we have to be able to trust that the schools are not only going to ensure their education but their safety as well.
If society was harsher on criminals that harm children things would be different. But because of bastard organizations like the All Criminal Liberation Union (ACLU) and other Amnesty groups these criminals know they have a better chance of avoiding persecution. The solution is simple, cut their dicks off or kill them. Then we could leave the schools wide open and not have to worry.
centerpoint
04-14-2010, 10:11
am a senior in highschool and they don't lock you in you can get out if the door is locked all the doors are unlocked till ten min after the bell rings but you no what happened at that middle school were the that kid brought that rifle and was shooting i ask were is the security people i mean here at my school if you are wearing a hat you go to the office so they need to be more concerned about people in the school then hats and dumb BS like that and my sister goes to the middle school next to me and if you just take a glance at the so called security guy you relize he is about 300 pounds over weight and could not help any one he can't even help him self and when i am saying 300 pounds over weight i am not joking so i just want to know what happens if some one tries to get in the school to take over or soming like that.
iamhunter
04-14-2010, 10:20
Refryguy, I get it.
But like you said, the problem isn't schools, it's with society.
If people focused more on fixing societal problems, and less on pursuing band-aid type fixes, we might actually get somewhere.
Otherwise things just get worse and worse.
But like you said, the problem isn't schools, it's with society. (edit insert: and the lack of standards/morals/etc)
If people focused more on fixing societal problems, and less on pursuing band-aid type fixes, we might actually get somewhere.
+1 mil X infinity!!
am a senior in highschool and they don't lock you in you can get out if the door is locked all the doors are unlocked till ten min after the bell rings but you no what happened at that middle school were the that kid brought that rifle and was shooting i ask were is the security people i mean here at my school if you are wearing a hat you go to the office so they need to be more concerned about people in the school then hats and dumb BS like that and my sister goes to the middle school next to me and if you just take a glance at the so called security guy you relize he is about 300 pounds over weight and could not help any one he can't even help him self and when i am saying 300 pounds over weight i am not joking so i just want to know what happens if some one tries to get in the school to take over or soming like that.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus. Only one period? Really?
Glock Shooter
04-14-2010, 12:04
I thank you all for you thoughts. I received a call from a Detective with the Boulder Police Department following up and I hope to speak to her today. What's even more disturbing is that the Head of Boulder County School Security has not found the time to return my call requesting a conversation and follow up meeting. I will leave him another message today.
What is obvious to me is that the school understands that Kindergarten aged children should never be in the halls alone, that's why they have bathrooms inside the classroom. However, being that they were in Music class they seem to have "relaxed" this basic understanding. Then they compounded the problem by the Music teacher simply not identifying the "person" right then and there. They then erred again by emailing the principal who was off site and not calling the Boulder Police.
Again, thanks for your thoughts.
rhineoshott
04-14-2010, 14:01
Public schools are government schools, which means the government runs them. The schools cannot, should not, and will not protect your child. They do not deserve to train your children. You are the only person that can provide that for your son. My educating them yourself, your children will be much safer, smarter, and when they're grown you won't have to wonder what sort of creature they are a product of. They will reflect your character rather than that of their peers.
Here I am radical again[ROFL1]
iamhunter
04-14-2010, 14:27
Public schools are government schools, which means the government runs them. The schools cannot, should not, and will not protect your child. They do not deserve to train your children. You are the only person that can provide that for your son. My educating them yourself, your children will be much safer, smarter, and when they're grown you won't have to wonder what sort of creature they are a product of. They will reflect your character rather than that of their peers.
Here I am radical again[ROFL1]
+1
I agree with that in principle, but not only do I not know all the things I want my kid to learn, I'm not exactly a natural teacher. Nor do I have the time or money to home school.
iamhunter
04-14-2010, 14:38
I agree with that in principle, but not only do I not know all the things I want my kid to learn, I'm not exactly a natural teacher.
Neither do most teachers, that's why they use a set curriculum
Nor do I have the time or money to home school.
I do understand this, but where there's a will, there's a way.
My dad managed to send me to private school K-6 while working as a Beer salesmen, supporting a family of 4 on a $20,000 a year salary.
Sure we wore hand me down clothes, ate cheap food, and lived in a tiny house.
But my education and mental capabilities have proven to be the most valuable thing my parents ever provided me with.
I agree with that in principle, but not only do I not know all the things I want my kid to learn, I'm not exactly a natural teacher. Nor do I have the time or money to home school.
Irving! I love you man (not that way)... Wonderful segeway into my point I was making on another thread: It is the parents responsibility to raise their kid, not the schools. You mentioned that you're not a natural teacher nor do you know all the things you want your kid to learn. That is fine! I would say most people are not natural teachers and don't know everything they'd like too. However, how often have you taught someone something? "Hey Stu, how do I handle such and such?" and you've given advice that may or may not have worked. Regardless of the outcome, you have still taught that person something. Teaching others how to teach themselves is the ultimate goal!! Even if it's learning how to find out teh answers... even "googling"! lol.
When I post a question on here there are invariably two answers: 99% is the direct answer to the question. The 1% is the hardest, but best rewarding answer. For example: (I made the numbers up smartbutts, don't correct them! lol)
Q: What is the velocity of a .55 grain .308 bullet with 175 grains of powder exiting a 20 inch barrel and where will it land at 200 yards in ideal weather?
A #1: 26K fps, 1.5 inch drop.
A #2: If you look at "this" website/chart/etc you can see the makings/formulas for what you asked plus the variances in powders, wind droppage at distances, blah, blah, blah.
Now answer number one was fine, there is nothing wrong with it. But it is teaching by route, teaching to the test, whatever you want to call it. No one learns anything but that particular piece of information that will never help them unless they ALWAYS shoot that particular combination in that particular weather condition.
Answer number two not only answers the question (with a little reading/guidance), but also leads the student to think on their own and start to come up with other questions and how to answer them.
And for the record, unless you are a teacher, home school is worthless in my opinion.
Game on!
refryguy
04-14-2010, 15:31
I agree with BigBear, if you aren't actually educated to be a teacher then don't try and home school. Thats like asking a Plumber to fix your jet engine, maybe an extreme example but you get the point. All the kids I know that were home schooled did not do well socially and struggled in College. My cousins turned all gothy emo kids, but I think its cause they were raised home schooled in a very very strict Christian household. It was the only way the could rebell. However, my wife's cousins were home schooled by their mother, who has a masters in education, and they have all done very well in college but they said they regret not be able to play sports in High School.
Q: What is the velocity of a .55 grain .308 bullet
Where can I get some of those?
iamhunter
04-14-2010, 15:54
I agree with BigBear, if you aren't actually educated to be a teacher then don't try and home school.
I disagree. I was homeschooled for part of my education by my mother, who has no educational degree.
I was always socially well adjusted, and did EXTREMELY well academically.
(1560 SAT score, accepted into numerous top-level univerisites, attending my state university with a full-ride scholarship)
However, I do agree if you homeschool your kids you MUST go out of your way to get them socially involved with large groups of children. Theres no other way for a kid to learn the lessons he learns when dealing with his peers.
I spent 5 years in an a private elementary school, was homeschooled for three years, spent 2 years in in a public magnet high school, and went to college at 17.
My brother followed almost the same path, except instead of the magnet school, he went to the public school up the road.
Didn't work out quite as well for him.
The standards, challenges, and quality of education in your run-of-the-mill public school is PAINFULLY inadequate.
rhineoshott
04-14-2010, 16:07
I agree with that in principle, but not only do I not know all the things I want my kid to learn, I'm not exactly a natural teacher.
Textbooks.
Besides classroom style learning has prooven(ha ha, yeah I know, taboo word) to be a less effective learning system than textbooks and/or personal teacher/tutor.
Think of it this way, anyone can teach someone to read. It's not hard at all, just takes some time. Once a child can read, he can pretty much learn anything. He's not limited by the teacher, he's limited by his textbooks. Homeschooling is not the parent trying to tell their kid everything academic they know. The parent really just directs the learning. AKA making sure they're doing it.
And what is going to happen when my kid has a question that I don't know the answer to?
iamhunter
04-14-2010, 16:59
And what is going to happen when my kid has a question that I don't know the answer to?
Textbooks, internet, friends, etc.
There were plenty of times my teachers didn't know the answers to my questions in both the University and high school setting.
And on a side note,
have you EVER had a question you couldn't find the answer to on the internet?
and I doubt your kids could pose any seriously challenging questions until high school at the minimum.
And by then you could hopefully build a strong enough intellectual discipline in them to counteract the flaws in the public school system.
Backinblackrifles
04-14-2010, 16:59
Looking back I would not have gone to public school if you paid me. All my public school friends are in drug rehab or prison. Home school is not hard I graduated at 16 with honors. If your kid can read they can be home schooled it is not your job to give them the answers it is your job to make sure they figure it out and do the work if teachers are simply giving kids the answers these days no wonder there is a STUPID problem with kids. It is your job as a parent to teach your child how to think unlike the schools that are now telling them what to think.
Backinblackrifles
04-14-2010, 17:01
Looking back I would not have gone to public school if you paid me. All my public school friends are in drug rehab or prison. Home school is not hard I graduated at 16 with honors. If your kid can read they can be home schooled it is not your job to give them the answers it is your job to make sure they figure it out and do the work if teachers are simply giving kids the answers these days no wonder there is a STUPID problem with kids. It is your job as a parent to teach your child how to think unlike the schools that are now telling them what to think.
FYI My Mother had a 3rd grade education.
Backinblackrifles
04-14-2010, 17:14
Another thing I am not socially challenged and neither are any of my other home school friends I have until recently had a full time job ever since I was twelve years old and was the only kid in the neighborhood that could have a real conversation with an adult. And if you don't want your kid to work there is still football, baseball, shooting sports, and so on that you can do with your kids. Another note My grandfather was the lead maintenance and structural engineer at a nuclear power plant for 40 years in south carolina and he can't read, Again I believe it is about teaching them how to think and find information rather than telling them what to think.
ALL of my siblings were home schooled My older brother is a chemist, My older sister is a engineer for lockheed martin, My younger brother is on his way to being a computer technician, and my younger sister is 5 she can read and is enjoying her childhood.
SA Friday
04-14-2010, 17:38
Based on a few studies done with pedophiles willing to talk about their pasts, they averaged around 12 molestations before being caught. They AVERAGED.
It's very simple. Any person in authority has an OBLIGATION to challange any stranger in a school. A teacher qualifies as a person in authority. She reacted wonderfully until she failed to challange the stranger and question who he was and why he was there. She felt uncomfortable enough to remove the child immediately, but not uncomfortable enough to question him? Epic failure...
Second mistake was not immediately contacting a law enforcement official. Sooner is better, period. Not calling at all? Seriously? That's one hell of an assumption of innocence with the livelyhood of people meeting the definition of diminished capacity. Yes, children have diminished capacity; they cannot defend themselves to the same level as a normally educated and matured adult. You HAVE to take this into account with security measures. If the stranger has a completely valid and innocuous reason for being there, the cops question him, determine he's not a threat, and everyone goes home after doing the right thing. If the stranger has NO valid reason for being there, and they can't prove he is doing anything wrong, Homie is going to at the very least get cataloged for a suspicious incident in a school. He pulls the same crap in Longmont a couple of months later... Time to start an investigation into his systemic desire to be in schools without a reason. This is simple pro-active law enforcement at this point. If they have a focus of suspicious activity, they can attempt to intervene before the molestation happens.
BTW, schools and prisons are both forms of a sociology theory called 'The Science of Dicipline' derived from a French Criminologist/Sociologist named Michael Foucault. It's a 5 point theory concerning instutionalized social structure, and is quite literally staple food at the doctoriate level in these fields. So complaining about turning schools into prisons is really kinda moot. They are essentially already the same. The only two differences between the them are schools let out their inmates on a daily basis, and schools utilize soft power instead of the hard power used in prisons. Not that long ago, hard power (corporal punishment) was being used in schools still and the differences were even less obvious.
SA Friday
04-14-2010, 17:39
BTW, my wife and I currently home school our 7 year old....[Coffee]
Backinblackrifles
04-14-2010, 17:46
[Bounce]
BTW, my wife and I currently home school our 7 year old....[Coffee]
and I doubt your kids could pose any seriously challenging questions until high school at the minimum.
And by then you could hopefully build a strong enough intellectual discipline in them to counteract the flaws in the public school system.
Maybe you are seriously over estimating me.
SA Friday
04-14-2010, 18:10
and I doubt your kids could pose any seriously challenging questions until high school at the minimum.
My seven year old once asked me why his penis was 'all hard and pokie' when he woke up in the morning. I found answering that question to a seven year old kinda challenging. [ROFL1]
That's when you say, "I don't know why son, but I do know that God sees you when you touch it."
SROs are worthless. Didn't the SRO at Columbine run to his car and hide waiting for back up instead of intervening? I'm rather sure he did.
Deputy Neil Gardner (the SRO) was on lunch watching the kids in the smoking area just off property. He responded to the back of the school and exchanged fire with Eric Harris. The deputy fired 4 shots, Harris fired 10... If i remember it was about 67 yards and an up hill batte. Gardner grazed the magazine on Harris' gun... Harris spun and fell, Gardner though he hit him, Harris reloaded, and ran inside the school... When Gardner advised he was going in, he was told to stand down.
Also Dep. Paul Smoker fired 3 rounds at Harris moments after that when he arrived to back Gardner up and was fired on from the set of double doors that Harris had entered.
Just keeping the facts straight... There was no "running to his car and hiding". The beat cops definitely tried to do their job, it was the admin that choked.
am a senior in highschool and.....
Dude. You are in highschool. Please punctuate more than once!
Backinblackrifles
04-14-2010, 19:51
That's when you say, "I don't know why son, but I do know that God sees you when you touch it."
That is great![LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL][LOL]
theGinsue
04-15-2010, 00:16
GlockShooter - Let me just say that I'm very happy to hear that your daughter is safe.
I'm going to let my emotions calm before I make any phone calls or take any action as part of me just wants to call Channel 7 and turn them loose on them.
BTW, you should call Channel 7 and get the media involved. That school should pay for reacting so poorly. What school was it?
Agreed. Call the News! Sadly, YOU trying to get changes made to improve the security of the children or for anything else in a public school will result in a great deal of frustration on your part and absolutely no progress. When the News gets involved, things tend to happen. this is primarily due to the fact that the School Board is aware that bad press translates into voters turning down tax increases to fund the schools.
Where was the school's SRO during this? I would bring this issue up with the school board.
I believe that someone already mentioned this, but most K-5 schools don't have an SRO.
I understand worrying about the safety of your children, really, I do, but at what point does worry become paranoia?
I could explain it until I'm blue in the face, but until you have your own children you just won't get how absolutely horrifying these events are. When you see your children faced with anything that could potentially harm them, your heart stops, your blood turns to ice, and time stands still. Every day we hear of some child disappearing or someone doing the unthinkable to a child. There are many who honestly believe that these events aren't actually happening any more than they ever have, but it's just getting more exposure. I believe both are true. We are becoming an increasingly violent and dangerous society. I for one would have rather have been a paranoid parent than the parent of a child whose naked, beaten and violated body was found in a shallow grave in a nearby ditch.
If you guys want to give the school district the power to lock your children in a building, go for it, but I find it absurd.
As others have said, not locking the children IN, but others OUT. I never had a problem with checkpoints at the doors of my childrens schools and having to sign in and get badged (even getting escorted to where I was going).
Many doors at most schools have the same type of doors that movie theaters have - anyone can leave, but the doors are locked to those outside and there are no handles on the outside of the doors to pull the doors open with.
And if that happens, how far of a stretch is it before the school district has more power over your children then you do?
That statement is fairly naive as school districts ARE officially considered the experts over your own children; they DO have more power over your children.
As far as "strip searches" (I did not quote that comment), school officials can legally do just short of that already. In fact, some schools HAVE performed strip searches of children and gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
It's not the authorized individuals, such as the students, that we are especially concerned with, it's those who DON'T belong who can get in, abduct a child, and get back out without anyone even knowing they were ever there.
iamhunter
04-15-2010, 07:47
As far as "strip searches" (I did not quote that comment), school officials can legally do just short of that already. In fact, some schools HAVE performed strip searches of children and gotten nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
It's not the authorized individuals, such as the students, that we are especially concerned with, it's those who DON'T belong who can get in, abduct a child, and get back out without anyone even knowing they were ever there.
No, I do not yet have children. But I can empathize with how terrifying it can be facing the terrible things that go on in this world...
I also realize how people's fascination with such crime ( in a horrific sort of way) makes it seem more looming and prevalent than it probably is.
That's not to say its not safer to err on the side of "paranoia", but I think it's important to realize that giving the schools to much power to "protect" your children could create it's own monster.
I mean how would you feel if your 14 daughter came home and had been wrongfully strip searched by the school staff?
Or if you found out the schools had been spying on your family via webcam?
or if your 16 year old son was charged with felony theft for something he didn't do?
I don't propose to have a perfect solution, just trying to encourage discussion on both sides of the fence.
More rule and regulation means more power. And that's not always a good thing.
And what is going to happen when my kid has a question that I don't know the answer to?
The fun of teaching!! You say, "I don't know, but let's figure it out together."
Where can I get some of those?
Referring to my 55gr bullets... Don't know, I just pulled numbers out the air to make a point... wasn't trying to be accurate.
My seven year old once asked me why his penis was 'all hard and pokie' when he woke up in the morning. I found answering that question to a seven year old kinda challenging. [ROFL1]
"You're becoming a man son... Go grab a beer."
HAHA
Backinblackrifles
04-15-2010, 10:41
The way I kinda look at it is most guys on this forum including me do not trust the gooberment with their money, guns, rights, or best interest, why would you trust them with your children?
Glock Shooter
04-15-2010, 10:49
Thanks again for everyone's thoughts on this matter. I have a meeting early next week with the head of district security, a senior supervisor with the Boulder Valley School District, and the Principal. I'll let you know what becomes of our talk.
iamhunter
04-15-2010, 11:06
The way I kinda look at it is most guys on this forum including me do not trust the gooberment with their money, guns, rights, or best interest, why would you trust them with your children?
my thoughts exactly.
The last thing we need is more brainwashed idiots heading to the polls.
and thats not to offend anyone, you can still raise a good child within the public education system, but it takes alot of awareness and effort on the parents part to make sure they aren't getting spoonfed progressive ideology.
am a senior in highschool and they don't lock you in you can get out if the door is locked all the doors are unlocked till ten min after the bell rings but you no what happened at that middle school were the that kid brought that rifle and was shooting i ask were is the security people i mean here at my school if you are wearing a hat you go to the office so they need to be more concerned about people in the school then hats and dumb BS like that and my sister goes to the middle school next to me and if you just take a glance at the so called security guy you relize he is about 300 pounds over weight and could not help any one he can't even help him self and when i am saying 300 pounds over weight i am not joking so i just want to know what happens if some one tries to get in the school to take over or soming like that.
Oh My God....you're a senior in High School and you can't write any better than this? You have a tough life ahead of you.
Thanks again for everyone's thoughts on this matter. I have a meeting early next week with the head of district security, a senior supervisor with the Boulder Valley School District, and the Principal. I'll let you know what becomes of our talk.
Unfortunately, I'll let you in... Your kid will now be bullied and put on the blacklist of teachers. Since they can't to you for causing waves in their protected lives, they will now make life for your child even harder!
Welcome to the progressive, liberal/(insert own vocabulary here) school indoctrinations!!!
*** Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE teaching. It is truly my calling in life... However, the redtape, good ol' boy networks, beaucracy, money allotment, paperwork, etc has just gotten to the point of being ridiculous.
ColoEnthusiast
04-15-2010, 13:26
I think things will be OK with your daughter at school. Sounds like you have gottent their attention though.... Good.
As for protecting kids, I see NO REASON for a security officer. Why not put some teachers/coaches/administrators through training and allow concealed carry??
I would feel much better knowing my kids were going to a school with armed teachers who are prepared to protect them...
I agree with you ColoEnthusiast... but that's not how administration thinks... Put a gun in a teachers hand with kiddos around?! OMG!!! What if it fell out? What if a kid got his hands on it?! What if....?!
I don't think it will ever happen in todays climate.
Kids can get ISS or even expelled for simply talking about weaponary, etc.
Just thinking back to a lot of my pussy ass teachers in school, and I'd say 95% of them would absolutely abhor the idea of even owning a gun. It only takes a few though.
[quote=BigBear;194574]
I don't think it will ever happen in todays climate.[quote]
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5945430.html
For once I actually liked to Texas!
That article is even from 2008. Wonder if we can see if they are currently carrying there. They'd be smart not to say though, IMO.
rhineoshott
04-15-2010, 13:58
The way I kinda look at it is most guys on this forum including me do not trust the gooberment with their money, guns, rights, or best interest, why would you trust them with your children?
Excelent point my friend.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5945430.html
Very nice. I'll have to call some friends I know in the area! I knew I loved Texas as well. Oh to find a job there again...
SA Friday
04-15-2010, 16:46
Unfortunately, I'll let you in... Your kid will now be bullied and put on the blacklist of teachers. Since they can't to you for causing waves in their protected lives, they will now make life for your child even harder!
Welcome to the progressive, liberal/(insert own vocabulary here) school indoctrinations!!!
*** Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE teaching. It is truly my calling in life... However, the redtape, good ol' boy networks, beaucracy, money allotment, paperwork, etc has just gotten to the point of being ridiculous.
Oh, I don't know. I have a little more faith in teachers than that. We had an incident with my step daughter a few years back when she was in the local elemetary school. I like to believe the school fixed the problem because it was the right thing. It doesn't hurt for the kid's parents to be a paralegal who sued people for a living and a federal agent though.
Some of you guys sure are pretty tough on teachers. I think the problem with home schooling is that most parents aren't involved enough in their kids' lives. Also, I think it takes a pretty motivated parent and student to make it work. I'm a school teacher and I would like to think the kids I teach walk out of my class room with more knowledge than how to interpret Shakespeare or write an argumentative essay with properly cited sources. But, then again, I grew up in a very small town. The same town that I teach in.
And by no means am I meant to offend anyone but I would imagine a lot of people would struggle trying to teach a classroom full of teenagers whose biggest concern is "what dress am I going to where for prom."
As far a security, I guess that our kids will just have to deal with me and the other "pussy" male teachers in the building. We are the ones that ask people who they are and why they are there. And if I ever needed a gun I could probably find one behind the seat of one of my football players that went coyote hunting before school started. LOL
Seriously though, public education has its faults. Some teachers become lazy with tenure and others just lose their passion. I'm in the business because I'm motivated to help students think for themselves, not to force an ideology on them.
To the original poster, I am certainly glad that your daughter was alright.
theGinsue
04-15-2010, 21:34
I hope that no one took my negative comments to be directed toward teachers. My issues with public K-12 education is with the administrators; at the school level to some degree but mostly at the district level.
I also have issues with the whole "we need more money" shouts. I believe that there is no money for the schools because the district administration is so bloated that they suck up all of the money and it doesn't get to the schools.
It doesn't hurt for the kid's parents to be a paralegal who sued people for a living and a federal agent though.
FTW!!! [ROFL1]
I believe that there is no money for the schools because the district administration is so bloated that they suck up all of the money and it doesn't get to the schools.
+1 Median salary for teachers = $40K (high school)
Median salary for admin = $90K (high school)
Teachers do all the work... admin does nothing but piss on teachers and play golf, lol. I'm not really upset with admin salary, lord knows I'd LOVE to make that much. I have a problem with how they USE the money they are given. The school needs updated computers (some using old DOS systems) to remain technologically informed as the super keeps yelling at everyone to be up to date on tech stuff, but they'll take that money and give half a million to the facilities people to returf the football feild... (no offense meant bullpup).
...but they'll take that money and give half a million to the facilities people to returf the football feild... (no offense meant bullpup).
No offense taken. It's definately true that when it comes to sports, most schools don't have a lack of money or they find the money. I'm pretty lucky; the school I work in does a pretty good job of finding money to keep technology current. Although, I still believe that technology isn't the end all of education.
Glock Shooter
04-23-2010, 15:29
So I met with some District officials, BVSD Security Head, and the Principal. Overall I was satisfied with the meeting, but the CYA mentality of the Principal just made me mad and I told em. I could see from about 10 minutes into the meeting the "higher ups" were on my side but the Principal just wanted to make sure she covered her ass. Bottom line I stated was that this "stranger" told my daughter that he was in charge of protecting all the students then why didn't the Music teacher recognize him? i.e BECAUSE HE WAS AN INTRUDER!!! The schools position, since he didn't say anything threatening like "want to come with me" was that he was not a threat. The "higher ups" were not so convinced and there will be immediate changes to the protocols should anything like this happen again. They admitted a mistake was made and that impressed me. We were almost done but the Principal just had to open her mouth to make sure I heard her say again that she "followed existing procedures blah blah blah" so I then said something to the effect of "well so did I, I gave you 3 days to reply to my voice mails, you didn't, I wrote you an email letting you know I would go the press at noon and my phone didn't stop ringing from all of you!!!" I then let them know that I was a XXXXhair away from walking and calling Channel 7 For Help!!! The "higher ups" stepped in and admonished the Principal for being what he called "insensitive to my personal feelings in this situation". I got the feeling that if left to her own the Principal would make my daughter the problem but the higher ups wouldn't stand for it. I think we'll be looking into other schools just in case.
Thanks for the update.
What he actually said to your daughter is very frightening to me.
Glock Shooter
04-29-2010, 16:29
Followup to my followup:
Just received an email that the Principal is "retiring" hummmm....wondering if "retiring" is a euphemism for "YOU'RE FIRED!"
Interesting development..
cmailliard
05-23-2010, 15:56
Reading a few pages of this thread I may have missed some comments so excuse me if I repeat something.
GlockShooter I would still go to the press with this event. After Platte Canyon and Deer Creek this is something that every parent, teacher, administrator should be made acutely aware of.
My daughter is 3 1/2 and not yet in a public school, her daycare/school is pretty tight on security with key card access and parents being "talked with" if they let somebody else in.
I just returned from West Virginia where I talked about this very topic during my Mass Violence Planning and Response to LE, Fire, EMS and other responders. We even did Threat Assessments on a few schools while we were down there. We need to teach our kids what to do. We are the parents and school officials. Schools, Hospitals and other facilities have a see no evil, speak no evil attitude towards these events and mass violence events.
Let me ask all of you this - We have the Fire Code for public buildings and how many times a year must a school do a fire drill? How many kids have died in a school fire in the last 20 years? ZERO. How many have died in a mass violence event? How many schools talk about this with their students? Bring this up at your next school event.
New York City has See Something Say Something - Very simple rule to live by. Schools are way to behind the times in dealing with these events and they will come around until one of two things happen - 1) Parents scream loud enough and in enough numbers or 2) it happens to them.
Talk with your kids and educate them. Stay Safe.
gnihcraes
05-23-2010, 19:46
This might be of some help too that I just learned of:
Website and 800 number for kids to leave anonymous tips for anything...
http://safe2tell.org/
Safe2Tell® provides young people a way to report any threatening behaviors or activities endangering themselves or someone they know, in a way that keeps them safe and anonymous.
Safe2Tell® is a 501c3 not-for-profit organization based on the Colorado Prevention Initiative for School Safety with initial funding from The Colorado Trust.
The program focuses on kids and the issues they face today. This program was based on the Columbine Commission Report’s recommendation that students need a safe and anonymous way to keep lines of communication open. They realized that tragedies could be prevented if young people had a way to tell someone what they knew without fearing retaliation.
The anonymity of all Safe2Tell reports is protected by C.R.S. 07-197. This means the reporting party remains UNKNOWN by Colorado state law, signed by Governor Bill Ritter on May 3, 2007.
Now, using Safe2Tell®, they only have to make a call to make a difference. By calling 1-877-542-7233 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 1-877-542-7233 end_of_the_skype_highlighting or submitting a tip through this web-site, young people can help anyone who is in trouble or prevent a tragedy.
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