Need Some Feedback on Friends New Business - Bulletboyammo.com

[BuffCyclist]

Hey guys and gals

I may or may not have talked about this way back when, but a friend of mine just opened his company: BulletBoyAmmo.com (http://www.bulletboyammo.com/index.html).

Basically, you ship your brass to him, he reloads it, and ships it back to you no more than 2 days from receiving your brass. When he ships it back to you, he is required to ship it in an ammo can, which will be yours to keep (which you can reuse with future orders or collect them). To offset the $10 cost of the ammo can (which my understanding is added to your order), he offers free UPS Ground shipping back to you.

I'm not sure if Frank is on here or not, but he asked for some feedback so I wanted to get the name out there and see if there are any major flaws you all see with the website, business practices, prices or other.

One thing I am going to bring up is, since a lot of people live around the Denver area, are they able to drive by and drop off their brass in person, and then later pick it up so they can avoid the shipping costs (for both parties). They might still be required to buy the ammo can, but for those people who live very close to Thornton, it could save a ton of time and money.

All feedback is welcome, good or bad. He has a lawyer working through the details of everything, so it's not just something that he is randomly throwing together. It's my understanding as well that getting his business up and running has been in the works for over a year. He is also a long-time shooter (see the tab "Bullet Boy" on the main page for his bio) and very skilled at what he does.

So, without further ado, lets get some feedback!

[ChunkyMonkey]

Whats the minimum?

[BuffCyclist]

Good question, I'll add it to the list of questions to ask him. Seems like it's up to the buyer, as they have to pay for shipping (at the moment) to ship the brass, so more brass sent means the cost of shipping is less per round.

[opie011]

I would rather drop it off in person since I'm close. Please find out if that's a possibillity.

[ChunkyMonkey]

He'll spend tons of shipping cost if he takes an order of 100 etc. Unless he does custom loads etc in which the pricing would be expected higher anyway.

[Mtn.man]

OK so if 100 people send 1000 rounds ea, how can he turn em around in 2 days per each?

[BuffCyclist]

He'll spend tons of shipping cost if he takes an order of 100 etc. Unless he does custom loads etc in which the pricing would be expected higher anyway.

Good point, then again I'm sure he has a business UPS shipping account which may be cheaper (not sure).


OK so if 100 people send 1000 rounds ea, how can he turn em around in 2 days per each?

Very good point, I'm emailing him a lot of questions already, which will hopefully allow a much better company and for it to last!

I'm planning on emailing him on Friday with a lot of suggestions, but if anyone would like to know sooner, feel free to email him yourself and post up when/if he replies: Frank@BulletBoyAmmo.com

[BulletBoyAmmo]

Hi everyone. I figured I'd join up!

Thank you all for the feedback, you make some very good points.

I've started to work on a way to require a minimum amount of brass requirement, shipping will add up. The hard part about this is that I don't want to discourage anyone from using my services because they are a few pieces of brass away from the requirement. Minimum requirements are easy when you can just click to order more; my business however requires that the customer have the brass to reload and finding more may be an issue or just take some time?

I like the drop off and pickup idea, that would work well, I'll add that as an option to the website. The ammo will have to be dropped off and picked up at the Thornton UPS store though and not my house for safety reasons my lawyer has stressed with me.

As far as the turn around, what seems like a reasonable timeframe where customers won't think "Oh, that will take too long" versus I get swamped and run out of time? I can say something like 5 business days and obviously load their ammo in 1 day if possible. In other words, the turnaround is not an exact time frame its just a maximum.

I honestly have no idea how busy I will be. I feel like it will start off slow as people discover that I can load their ammo for much less than buying new anywhere and that it will be better grade as well. I know the ammunition market is incredibly backed up right now, so maybe business will be nuts! Either way, all businesses change and edit their policies as they go to mend problems and adjust to their demands, so I'm not too worried about making things flawless before I open.

Thank you all for the feedback! I hope this business will be able to benefit all of you. I know I've been through 100,000 's of rounds in my life and I would have a lot more cash in the bank rights now if I had a business like this to buy through 10 years ago.

[Irving]

This sounds like a great business venture. I'm also curious about the minimum for brass. I've been collecting brass for a while, but don't reload myself. Glad I started saving my brass. How do you expect to load stuff for people who aren't familiar with reloading? I only ask because if you asked me how I'd like my stuff loaded, I couldn't tell you one way or the other because I've only shot factory stuff.

[68Charger]

looks good from the customer perspective, maybe post a "current lead time" on the website- so if you get a large order in, you can set expectations..

I'll also ask the obvious, since I don't see it answered- you have a type 06 FFL already?

[BigBear]

Nice little website... I know that you can only reload brass a certain amount of times before it becomes prone to misfire/etc. I did not see any explanation of how to tell if you can still use the brass or not. Coming from a legal standpoint, it may be wise to put some sort of disclaimer about that to CYA if a catastopihc failure ever occurs.

Secondly, there will have to be a minimun on shipping as you will be out a lot of money if people don't send "enough". There are simple formulas for that, but basically you need to make sure that X bullets + x Shipping + x time/materials =/< cost. You need to make a profit somehow. If people are dropping then off, then you can do 1 bullet, lol. But for shipping, you must specify some minimum amount.

My two cents. Looks interesting, if I ever get back on the positive side of money things, I'll put you on the list after Birddog does my stock.

[BuffCyclist]

I mentioned that he should put up some pictures on his site to see how the entire process is done. That way, it will give more credibility to his company and people can see if he does the work in a super shady, extra dirty environment which would yield sub-par results, or in a very clean, tidy, professional environment.

The Current Lead Time on the website would be a great idea, though he would have to update it daily or close to to provide accurate info.

On the drop-off/pickup, is the UPS Store that they will be dropped off okay with allowing drop-offs without paying? I can imagine they'd be fine with it if you have a business account with them, or a PO box (or similar) that you pay that specific store to hold items for you. If they aren't okay with holding without shipping for the local drop-offs, what if you came to an agreement with them for like $1 or something very small that no one would cry about, but would keep the UPS Store happy?

[275RLTW]

Can you specify what type of loads, bullets, power factor etc... you are loading? Can we specify what we want?

[Brassie]

Help me better understand your pricing. I see 9mm 115 gr FMJ at $22.00 per 100, which is pretty close to what I'm paying for new WWB or Federal [Dunno] Don't get me wrong, really like the idea, just askin

[funkfool]

My notes:
You can ship ammunition by placing a "ORMD - Cartridges, small arms" on the box it is shipped in. Without being a Hazmat registered shipper. You cannot ship it at the UPS store, but you can at the UPS and Fedex HUB. There are also no federal or state regulations that I am aware of requiring an ammo can for ammunition manufacturers. Make sure you have a FFL to manufacturer ammunition (I'm sure you do) in hand. That said, the ammo can requirement is probably unnecessary - maybe a good promotional deal, but not necessary to conduct business.

Next,
Liability. Don't do it if you can't get insured. You are opening yourself to a can of worms by leaving part of your supply chain wide open. If a customer sends you range brass that is going to fail the next time it's fired - chances are, they are going to blame you, and possibly sue you over it. Don't think any liability waver or terms & conditions will totally protect you on that, in part because sometimes it is impossible to say with absolute certain what happened in a "kaboom". Make sure you disclose everything you do to your insurance company or they may not cover you if something does come up.

+1 My thoughts too... "chances are, they are going to blame you, and possibly sue you over it. "

[SideShow Bob]

BulletBoy,
I could go for drop off / pick up. And use my own ammo cans to save on that end. I would do 45,40,380,7.62x39,5.56 & 7.62 NATO. all FMJ Mil.Spec. loads for practice rounds. Post prices and other info. when you are up and running.
By the way, will you be charging sales tax ? And what is the tax rate in Thornton ?

[bluker1]

Are you an Federally Licensed 06? If you are not I would read the requirement to sell remanufactured ammo.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html

alan

[SA Friday]

I imagine your not talking to me, but;

I haven't read anything in CFR 478 pertaining to remanufacturered ammo specifically... am I missing something? But remanufacture is still manufacture and does require an FFL license when doing it commercially. No argument there whatsoever. Nothing in 478.31 or 478.32 that differs from what I said about shipping. And if there is something about ammo cans it must be really buried because I can't find anything. Is there a letter I'm missing?

Link to regulations is here (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf)

The ORMD label does qualify it as a hazmat item, only they don't charge the 22.50 fee and they don't require you to be a hazmat certified shipper. You still have to follow all proper hazmat regulations however (properly rated box and packing). This might be where someone told you you had to use an ammo can? Fact is though, they make boxes for all levels of hazmat transport. And I highly doubt an Ammo can would be qualified for any level of hazmat shipping due to printing issues (UN pop stamp, etc).

UN and pop markings can be spray painted on to the can. It doesn't have to be manufactured with the markings, just has to be accurate. If you check the pop regulations, they used to have all the different type of containers approved and the std markings for them. It's been a long time since I played with that stuff though, and it could have changed.

[BulletBoyAmmo]

This is great! You guys are all bringing up really important issues and responses!

I have taken the shipping concerns and the ammo number requirement and come up with a policy that suits both. There will be free shipping only on purchases of 500 or more rounds (this can be mixed calibers, just 500 total). That way I don't lose money on small orders but don't discourage people from ordering if they want.

I do have an FFL 06 license, took me six months to get and our anti-firearm government's right arm (ATF) tried everything in their power to deny me it; but my LLC is licensed.

There are no restrictions with UPS on shipping ammo, in fact they won't even mark it as such so you may drop it off at my PMB box in Thornton for no charge and pick it up there once I have it completed.

The ammo can is not necessary, it's just a policy I wrote for my business. If I had to incorporate packaging costs into the ammo it would be more expensive than if I use the ammo can as a cool and safe way to transport. It also provides incentive for customers to continue to use my service.

Liability is a very important factor and I have the legal side of the business very well supported.

Brass does have a life, but as long as you aren't shooting your rounds super hot, the brass will usually outlast your wallet. I have many tools for testing brass life as well. As a customer, you won't have to worry about this too much. If you end up reloading a certain lot enough times with me that is begins to be unsafe to use, then you will be happy with the money you saved and I'll be happy with all the business you supplied me!!!

To answer BuffCyclist, the business model is solely profitable by reloading customers brass only. There is a federal excise tax on ammunition that makes ammo manufacturing almost impossible for small businesses. This is why you only see large amounts of ammo (not specialty of course) being produced by the big corporate guys like Remington and Winchester. As long as a manufacturer only reloads a customers used brass, then he is exempt from paying the excise tax. Therefor, the model I built is profitable only with reloads.

Legally I do have to charge sales tax for Colorado addresses. There's no way around this one, not even with the idea that reloads are a service not a product. Trust me, I've tired :)

As far as what I'm offering, I have a standard target load for each caliber. This is the base price. These loads are simple FMJ with a standard primer and healthy powder charge. They will function flawlessly and accurately for range use and pure practice and enjoyment. Just like buying a box of Winchester 45ACP from Walmart, they are affordable and work great.
I also allow the customer to select a heavier bullet if they have a preference for something more substantial, this is not necessary for most people and their range use.

I guess I should kind of spell out my ammo for everyone. This is not defensive ammunition. It's ammo to be shot in bulk, at the range, or wherever you go through a lot of ammo. Bullet Boy Ammo is designed as a solution to the difficulty involved these days in finding large amounts of ammo without breaking the bank. For political and economic reasons ammunition has become scarce and expensive and if you don't reload it is hard to keep shooting! My business is designed to allow the average gun owner to shoot (for sport and hobby) by making ammo "available" and "affordable". I will allow customers to contact me with special orders, so if you have a particular bullet, charge, seating depth.... I can give you a quote for a custom round (that can be for hunting or competition as well). But the majority or what I offer you don't have to worry about knowing the specifics of the round in order to order. Bullet Boy Ammo is designed to give all of you that don't have the time or money to get into reloading a way to take advantage of the low costs, availability, and better quality ammo that I have been making for myself for years.

When you add shipping and ammo-can cost into the prices I have posted, the ammo I offer is priced at the same point as your lowest end (bulk) military style factory ammo that can "occasionally" be found on the web or at gun shows. The market is one in which if people can find ammo, they buy it up, no matter the cost, so in this realm I can be fairly competitive. However, after you have an ammo-can and buy 500 or more for free shipping (or drop off), then my prices are much lower than anything out there. If you know any source to the contrary, let me know so I can adjust. But right now I've got pretty tight profit margins as is.

I think people tend to think that reloaded ammo is somehow lesser quality than new factory ammo. This is not so. Reloaded ammo is ofter produced with higher quality components and tighter lot specs. My ammo is. Even my standard handgun rounds group significantly tighter than store bought brands. You can probably (with shipping and ammo-can and tax added) find a bulk buy (1000 or 2000 rounds) out there for the same cost or just slightly more than my reloads but it's going to be military or foreign produced with cheap powder, berdan primers, and most likely non-brass casings which are very hard on your gun's internal parts (especially extractor). So I'll have to make it clear on my website that there is nothing to fear about the quality of my reloaded ammo, in fact it's the opposite, higher quality for less money. :)

BuffCyclist, I have thought about taking pictures of my work place, and it is a very clean and tidy little shop, the only problem is that the shop is my basement! :) So that might send across the opposite message like "Oh this is just some nut in his basement trying to act all bigtime!" :) I don't know, I just thought that I might want to leave that out. Bill Gates started in his garage though right? :)

Pheww... :) I hope that answered a lot of questions. You guys are bringing up good points, I'm definitely writing not only to try and answer questions but to reassure myself that this venture is a good idea!

Keep it coming though, I'd like to have most of the possible issues hammered out before I open in the next few weeks.

Also, if any of you shoot High Power Rifle and use an AR-15, I have a reload that groups less than 1/4 minute. And by less I mean I'll place 20 rounds at 200 yards within the circumference of a quarter. This is another example of how reloads can be better than store bought. When I shot for the CO team, we were required to load our own ammo because nothing out there could perform as well. I know Black Hills Ammo has some high quality 223 for competition but good luck finding any!

[Marlin]

the brass will usually outlast your wallet.

Not sure,, I've had my wallet for about 20 years...[Abused]

[coop68]

was curious what press and or machines you are using to make the reloads? i am a reloading myself and invested in a dillon 550 last dec! i am guessing you have bought a 1050 or some other machine to improve time and productivity? if i read correctly you have shot high power service rifle matches back in the day?

i currently am on the boulder rifle junior high power team we load everything are selves only way to do it! The thing we dont do is brass resizing we out source this! if you have a machine just for resizing good chance i will pass the word to my shooting coach and you could have quite a bite of business from us if you can clean and re-size large amount of brass. let me know

thanks, coop

[sniper7]

I have a few questions/concerns

I looked at the website but haven't seen the legal side of the business truly covered. what kind of warranty will be implied? Are you going to carry insurance to CYA is someone has a KaBoom or destroys their gun?

as for prices, I seem them a little on the high side. i have seen federal .223 selling for $300-$330 for 1000 rounds.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/223-556-fmj-ammo
they have PMC for $328/1000 for brand new ammo.

http://www.marksoutdoors.com/ also occasionally has 1000 rounds of federal for $300 or 900 rounds on strippers for the same price.



I also would like to know type of powder and primers and bullets you will be using. particularly for .223. I reload myself and am picky on what I use.

My final question is: what separates you and your reloads from me spending just a little bit more for brand new ammo covered by a large manufacturers warranty?

I think it is a great venture and I wish you the best of luck, I always try to support the local guy but have to justify the cost as well.

[BulletBoyAmmo]

Hey Coop! I believe I helped coach you a few times at Boulder when you first started out. Mike and Stewart have told me you are doing great! I used to reload with Boulder back in the day too. You guys get your brass all prepped from Scharch. I do have all the same brass prep equipment they do so it is possible for me to prep brass for you guys, I know they have a good relationship with Scharch though.

[BulletBoyAmmo]

Sniper 7. I will have warrenty, refund, and the legal contract info all up soon. You have probably noticed those pages are blank. This is my last step. I'm still wainting on my lawyer to wrap that end up.

Yes, ammunition-to-go has their cheapest 223 at aruond $0.32 if you order 1000. If you go all the way through checkout it ends up with shipping being $355. If you order 1000 rounds from me, you get free shipping. If you ship your brass to me with USPS flat rate it will be like $6. So you save about $50 by going with my ammo. That's the first time. After 2 reloads you've saved $100 bucks, and after 3, $150. It adds up pretty fast depending on how much you shoot or order. I can adjust my prices after I open if it looks like I'm not getting as much business; however, in marketing, it is not always good to be way below the lowest prices because people then assume your product is low quality. So again, I'm pricing right below the lowest out there, I want to stay competitive.

Let me know what you think about my thought process here :)

[coop68]

oh very cool I bet i have meet you, i can't remember you i am a face guy not name really nothing is ringing a bell! sorry i was young and ya young at the time i started i was to much interested in shooting the black guns![Tooth] mike is no longer doing it he has had some health issues he had to address! earl took over, but i am not sure what we are doing with are brass from my understanding it is still sitting in the locker in the new boxes or at earls house. we also started a new label system so we can get more life out of the brass! we have switched to winchester brass now buying new 100 round bags! we have not used the LC stuff from scharch in a long time i think i have the last of it at my house that i am using to start my own loading, so i can compete next year when i am no longer a junior! not much life left on them though its on its third cycle might get one or two more out of them well see! i will be home in a couple of weeks from college and will talk with earl never know might be able to work somthing out since you are close and know the program!

yes i have been doing fairly well with the sport thanks to the BRC which i am now a member of. was able to make it to perry last year and going again this year for my last year as a junior and hopefully continue to help after, cant wait for perry this year!

BTW can you tell us what machines you are using or just the brand? just curious! best of luck with the venture BTW


thanks, coop

[BulletBoyAmmo]

I'm using a dillon 550 right now and will eventually upgrade. Dillon knows what they are doing.

I also have a Lee turret press for smaller reloading jobs.

Sniper 7, I've adjusted the 223 down to $.28. That is about as far as I can go with my profit margins. I'll have to guage demand with the business to see if I need to lower or raise prices later on.

[coop68]

Dillon has good stuff was able to get mine last December!

After i looked over your website and saw your bio i can put a face to a name! thanks to you and mike i fired my first rounds out of an AR-15. I was wondering where you ended up glade you are doing ok and still around starting this venture in Colorado!

frank is a good guy you can deal with him in confidence once he is open!

[BulletBoyAmmo]

Thanks Cooper! Hey, did you get your BRC membership? Even if you didn't we should go shooting sometime soon. I'm at the range about twice a week. I'll let you know next time I go. You are in school at Boulder right?

[coop68]

Thanks Cooper! Hey, did you get your BRC membership? Even if you didn't we should go shooting sometime soon. I'm at the range about twice a week. I'll let you know next time I go. You are in school at Boulder right?

yes i did get my membership!

well currently i am in NE going to school at Hastings College! i will be back around may 13th ish a couple weeks! nice thing about Hastings is i can find reloading components for a fare price right now and hornady manufacturing is 20 mins away![Coffee] can't buy stuff but got a free tour!

once i am back i am more than willing to go shooting i normally am down there twice a week as well when i am home for practice on Thur and plinking, that is if I'm not working. let me know when you are going down when I'm back home. you should come out to a high power practice one day when I'm back home a lot of new shooters just started we shall see if they stay with the program, but i bet everyone would enjoy seeing you! send me a Pm with you cell number and we can hopefully hit the range some time soon! [Beer]

[henpecked]

Dont forget this guy

btt