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iamhunter
04-21-2010, 08:39
Here's a very interesting read on State nullification. In this case, it pertains to states rebelling against Healthcare, Gun Control, and National ID laws.

Feel free to pass it on to your friends, more people in America need to read and be aware of this kind of thing



REBELLION IN AMERICA
WorldNetDaily Exclusive

Citizens launch drive to put feds
back in their constitutional place

———————————————— —————————–
Posted: April 20, 2010
9:07 pm Eastern

By Drew Zahn

———————————————— —————————–
WorldNetDaily

A group of Americans who believe the federal government overstepped its constitutional bounds in passing the recent health-care legislation is rallying allies to a bold and controversial initiative: state nullification of the federal law.

“Now that health-care reform has been signed into law, the question people ask most is, ‘What do we do about it?’” said Michael Boldin, founder of the Tenth Amendment Center, in a statement. “The status quo response includes lobbying Congress, marching on D.C., ‘voting the bums out,’ suing in federal court and more. But the last 100 years have proven that none of these really work, and government continues to grow year in and year out.”

Instead, the Center is reaching back into the history books to suggest states take up “nullification,” a controversial measure that would essentially involve states saying to the federal government, “Not in our borders, you don’t. That law has no effect here.”

The Center is partnering with WeRefuse.com to announce release of model nullification legislation for states, called the Federal Health Care Nullification Act, and a call for 100,000 Americans to join a state-by-state petition to prompt legislators into action.

Now you can join nearly 15,000 Americans and 100 members of Congress in declaring your independence from Obamacare by signing Rep. Michele Bachmann’s Declaration of Health Care Independence.

“Nullification will allow Americans to stop the overreaching federal government now, not years from now,” said Trevor Lyman of WeRefuse.com in a statement. “We can make our biggest waves in local politics. Our state governments understand the impact of a vocal and irate minority, and they simply need to hear from us.

“WeRefuse.com and The Tenth Amendment Center’s Federal Health Care Nullification Act give our state legislators their marching orders,” he continued.

The question of whether nullification is a legal and permissible step, however, has been battled over since the ink was still wet on the U.S. Constitution.

(Story continues below)

The controversy stems largely from Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, which reads in part: “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land.”

Many scholars today point to the Article VI “Supremacy Clause” as evidence that federal laws (such as the health-care legislation) override state laws (such as any proposed nullification act).

But not so fast, say nullification advocates, pointing to a different interpretation offered by some of America’s Founding Fathers, based on the phrase in Article VI that suggests only federal laws made “in pursuance” of the Constitution are supreme.

Alexander Hamilton

In 1788, Alexander Hamilton wrote to the people of the state of New York in Federalist No. 33, arguing that the yet unratified Constitution limited the Supremacy Clause to only constitutional acts, and that federal laws that strayed outside those bounds deserved to be treated by “the smaller societies,” meaning states, as “usurpation.”

“It will not follow from this doctrine that acts of the large society which are not pursuant to its constitutional powers, but which are invasions of the residuary authorities of the smaller societies, will become the supreme law of the land,” he wrote (all italics in the original). “These will be merely acts of usurpation, and will deserve to be treated as such. … It will not, I presume, have escaped observation, that it expressly confines this supremacy to laws made pursuant to the Constitution.”

Ten years later, when faced with the unpopular Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison penned the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, respectively, which asserted that the Acts had infringed on powers reserved “solely and exclusively to the respective states” and were therefore “altogether void and of no force.”

In 1822, the General Court of Massachusetts blasted a federal embargo as “usurpation” and “oppression.”

“We tremble for the liberties of our country! We think it the duty of the present generation, to stand between the next and despotism,” the Court ruled. “The Committee are of opinion that the late act laying an embargo is unconstitutional, and void in divers of its provisions; not upon the narrow ground that the Constitution has expressly prohibited such acts, but upon the more broad and liberal ground that the People never gave a power to Congress to enact them.”

The Court’s solution was nullification, writing, “Whenever the national compact is violated, and the citizens of this State are oppressed by cruel and unauthorized laws, this Legislature is bound to interpose its power, and wrest from the oppressor its victim.”

All the talk of nullification, however, came to a head in 1832, when South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification, declaring a pair of federal tariffs unconstitutional and void within the sovereign boundaries of South Carolina. The Ordinance, in turn, prompted Congress to pass a bill permitting the president to use military force if necessary against the state, a showdown that nearly began the Civil War decades early.

President Andrew Jackson then became one of history’s loudest voices against nullification, arguing that it was “incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which it was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed.”

Congress changed its tariff laws in 1832, and South Carolina, in turn, backed off its nullification, thus averting the crisis.

Nullification returns

Over the past five years, dozens of states have taken up laws or resolutions to reassert state’s rights against an ever-expanding federal government. And while none of these has been so bold as to use the word “nullification,” several measures, in effect, look much the same.

Maine, for example, led the nation in 2005 by passing a resolution in opposition to the Bush-era law establishing a REAL ID system. But in 2007, Maine also passed LD 1138, the Act To Prohibit Maine from Participating in a National Identification Card, an act that essentially nullifies the federal law.

According to the Tenth Amendment Center, 24 other states have since passed similar resolutions and laws resisting the REAL ID Act of 2005. Should the Act – enforcement of which has been delayed incessantly and resisted at the federal level – be put into full effect, America may have to resolve the controversy that has been brewing since at least 1788.

As WND has reported, six states now have taken a similar stand on gun laws. Earlier this month, Arizona declared that guns made and kept inside its borders essentially are free from federal application, registration and ownership regulations.

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer issued a statement that her state’s new law is intended to give Washington the message that they should not try to “get between Arizonans and their constitutional rights.”

WND also reported earlier when Wyoming joined the states with self-declared exemptions from federal gun regulation, officials there taking the unusual step of actually including penalties for any agent of the U.S. who “enforces or attempts to enforce” federal gun rules on a “personal firearm.”

The costs could be up to two years in prison and $2,000 in fines for an offender.

But the bellwether likely is to be a lawsuit pending over the Montana law, which was the first to go into effect.

As WND reported, the action was filed by the Second Amendment Foundation and the Montana Shooting Sports Association in U.S. District Court in Missoula, Mont., to validate the principles and terms of the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, which took effect Oct. 3, 2009.

Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association argues that the federal government was created by the states to serve the states and the people, and it is time for the states to begin drawing boundaries for the federal government and its agencies.

In demanding the dismissal of the case, the government claimed the authority to regulate even “intrastate” commerce if it chooses.

In an analysis by the Tenth Amendment Center, the gun laws were described as a nullification.

“Laws of the federal government are to be supreme in all matters pursuant to the delegated powers of U.S. Constitution. When D.C. enacts laws outside those powers, state laws trump. And, as Thomas Jefferson would say, when the federal government assumes powers not delegated to it, those acts are ‘unauthoritative, void, and of no force’ from the outset,” said the analysis.

Now, however, the Center is calling Americans to start calling a spade a spade and insist on nullification of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

“It’s time to remind the federal government that We the People are in charge and not the other way around,” said Boldin. “Following the Constitution every issue, every time, without exceptions or excuses requires us to resist federal overreach and keeping our health care decisions where the Founders assured us that they’d be and where they belong – close to home.”


Source: http://florida.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/04/health-care-mandates-could-be-null-and-void/

BadShot
04-21-2010, 09:13
Anyone seen the Tin Foil stash we had around here at one time?

iamhunter
04-21-2010, 09:32
not quite sure how this pertains to any sort of conspiracy/tin foil hat theories.

Care to explain?

BigBear
04-21-2010, 09:41
All I care to say is invest in gold and lead... lead being bullets.

I think nullification is a good idea... but I doubt it will ever come to fruition with the amount of federal monies that states are now reliant upon.

iamhunter
04-21-2010, 10:19
I think it stands a pretty strong chance, there are atleast a few states that aren't to reliant on federal funding.

Montana, Wyoming, and Utah are all pretty much independent.

Arizona has, in the last month, nullified healthcare, passed no-permit CCW, passed a law freeing any guns made in-state from any sort of federal paperwork or registration.

I mean we'll see what goes down, but it's nice to see America atleast taking a LITTLE bit of a stand.

68Charger
04-21-2010, 10:20
All I care to say is invest in gold and lead... lead being bullets.

I think nullification is a good idea... but I doubt it will ever come to fruition with the amount of federal monies that states are now reliant upon.

you basically said how it will come to fruition.. when "federal monies" are no longer available or become worthless..

Mtn.man
04-21-2010, 10:23
unless you guys are playing too many video games or living in a cave,, there is alot of action going on in the States, and the people.
They are tired of theway our country is headed, and don't mind saying so on alot of sites. Yes some are a little too radical, but alot have sound ideas on making a Real Change in the way things are.
However with the current situation and people at their wits end you never know what will happen.
The FED has gotten so big and has taken over so much of our freedoms I can see why states would like to nullify the fed.

ronaldrwl
04-21-2010, 10:28
I'm all for shoehorning the federal government back into the constitution. To many generations have let it slip away for the benefits and freebees they have seduced us all with.

BigBear
04-21-2010, 10:33
you basically said how it will come to fruition.. when "federal monies" are no longer available or become worthless..


Touche! [Beer]

BadShot
04-21-2010, 11:34
I think there is a growing vocal faction of the population that would like to have things both ways. A return to constitutional constraint of the federal government while still having the federal teat, all the while giving more presumed authority to the states.

I for one am sick and tired of the nanny-ism that is so prevalent in American society that I don't care which class of government it is, get the hell out of my life!

Where I think the tin foil comes to play is in a few area's of the common argument made from our facet of the community and society.

1. Succession - Yeah not happening anyone recall the last time a state(s) attempted to succeed? Saber rattling and small legal warning shots across the bow of the federal government do not indicate that there is a true movement towards state succession. Yeah sure, Montana and even Texas have eluded to such possible steps, but we all know that is so far from actuality that any other presumption is simply that, presumption.

2. Political polarization - While the majority of the membership here would easily fall into the cast of a modern conservative, the actual state of Joe or Jane Citizen is centrist. In my less than humble opinion, one of the greatest faults of our society is the 2 party system, quickly followed in suite by the farce we call the media. I would challenge you to find an actual population that neatly fits into either camp of the so-called American Political Party system.


So, break out your tin foil, duck and cover, build your bunker, buy your gold and lead, but I hate to tell ya, the modern Rome, the American Empire, Pax Americana or what ever feels good for you to call it; has not begun to truly fall.

We really aren't the students of history we some times wish we were. The societal pressures required, seriously I mean required, to enact great societal change do not currently exist within America. Doubt my assessment? Look back through American history, look at the major events that triggered massive societal change. Now tell me how in the world a correlation exist in our current societal climate?

Now, where the hell is the tin foil?

Elhuero
04-21-2010, 11:42
hmmmmmm my thoughts on this might upset some people.

BigBear
04-21-2010, 12:26
hmmmmmm my thoughts on this might upset some people.


Bring it friend, people will get over it. We can't always agree, leads to boring forums. Just keep the language and personal insults down and I think it'd be fun to get in each others faces a little every now and then! HAHA.

[Beer]

BigBear
04-21-2010, 12:29
Succession - Yeah not happening anyone recall the last time a state(s) attempted to succeed? Saber rattling and small legal warning shots across the bow of the federal government do not indicate that there is a true movement towards state succession. Yeah sure, Montana and even Texas have eluded to such possible steps, but we all know that is so far from actuality that any other presumption is simply that, presumption.

I for one think this would make an EXCELLENT thesis/term paper subject... So many possibilities and tangets to chase and a lot of creative thinking to build upon.

ronaldrwl
04-21-2010, 12:42
Missed again BadShot but I respect your opinion that it may be to late or impossible to alter our course to wherever it's going as a country. But I'll feel better if we try.

BadShot
04-21-2010, 13:37
Ronaldrwl,

And in the spirit of discussion and debate, I too respect your opinion... yeah they're making me be nicer at work now :)

I do agree we need a change, that we need to reel back all facets of government. I am a huge fan of personal responsibility and that is a direct contradiction to the current state of affairs in American government at nearly all levels.

We need change, we need rational evolution and we (the people) need to reassert rational controls on those who govern in our name. What hasn't happened is a single or series of catalyzing events to urge the general populous to take active action. Even the near collapse of our economy in the last few years, even the blatant external threat to our society have failed to do so.

The real issue is that pretentious and polarizing groups such as those spawning the likes of Ron Paul and the more vocal portions of the supposed TEA party, ok hell even the Demacraps and Rebuplican'ts do nothing to draw to the cause, the average citizen. Rather they continue to fracture common bases in order to highlight narrow focus issue platforms. I'm honestly conflicted about that whole point.

While I mark myself as conservative, I am very centrist over all. I also firmly believe that to be true of the majority of our society. The sad part appears to be that along with being centrist, the majority of our society is also depressingly complacent. That would be why I noted the lack of societal pressures needed to induce change on a large scale.

So we continue to make headway on smaller issues at a local level. In that light there are several significant efforts at the local, regional and state level all across the country. Some of those pushes will force changes at the federal level. Whether those changes are for good or bad are yet to be seen.

We are a country governed by lawyers and self-serving buffoons. Until there is a far greater assumption of personal responsibility, until the average citizen can be brought into the fray, little will truly change.

BigBear
04-21-2010, 13:42
To sum up Badshot (I think): We've developed an "it can't happen to me" attitude, and until something amazingly tragic happens to individuals, nothing will change.

Is that correct? If it is, I completely agree. During the Katrina deal when the LA PD were taking peoples firearms, I had friends saying, "Good, then maybe they won't be looting and blah, blah". I asked them what if they were in LA and the PD was confiscating his guns for protecting his own property. He said, "They wouldn't do that to a regular joe. Those guys on TV must be criminals. They can take my guns out of my cold, dead hands." I just sighed... uh huh. Unless something happens to most individuals, no action will be taken.

BadShot
04-21-2010, 13:51
BigBear, Yeah pretty much.

iamhunter
04-21-2010, 14:30
I think you're talking about a different sort of situation bad shot.

We're not talking about succession or revolution, we're talking about civil rebellion.

It doesn't take THAT big of an event to start a civil movement, which is what we're talking about.

Nullifcation isn't addressing the "fall of the american empire" or succession or anything else, all it is is the states and the people telling the fed that "hey, we've had enough. You're overstepping your bounds, and it's not gonna happen in this state anymore."

Look at the civil rights movement.

It started out of virtually nothing, aside from the unjust and unfair treament of minorities.

And now instead of that, we have the unjust and unfair treatment of nearly ALL americans.

Doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me.

And more and more people become aware and active every day.

BadShot
04-21-2010, 15:21
I think you're talking about a different sort of situation bad shot.

We're not talking about succession or revolution, we're talking about civil rebellion.

It doesn't take THAT big of an event to start a civil movement, which is what we're talking about.

Nullifcation isn't addressing the "fall of the american empire" or succession or anything else, all it is is the states and the people telling the fed that "hey, we've had enough. You're overstepping your bounds, and it's not gonna happen in this state anymore."

Look at the civil rights movement.

It started out of virtually nothing, aside from the unjust and unfair treament of minorities.

And now instead of that, we have the unjust and unfair treatment of nearly ALL americans.

Doesn't seem like that far of a stretch to me.

And more and more people become aware and active every day.

OK I can see where I could be partially divergent from the OP material. But I disagree that the Civil Rights movement was successful simply because of that issue. There were several societal pressures that made the ground fertile for the movement to succeed. A war weary country, a fundamental shift in the opinions and mindsets of the 20-30 age range, Democratic party centrism and popularity all laid the ground open.

I believe that a few minor legal shots across the bow mean little if nothing in the grand scheme of how we function as a society and republic. There are so many things that could be done to truly tell the Federal Government to wake up and straighten up that the States just chose to no do at all. Well with the few exceptions we already know of. So a bit of fluff and "Hey we'll make our own damn guns, na-na-nah" or "Bugger off we'll figure out health care for our own folks" from a distinct minority of states means about nothing at all in the over all picture.

That's really the point I'm trying to make I guess.

ronaldrwl
04-21-2010, 18:36
So a bit of fluff and "Hey we'll make our own damn guns, na-na-nah" or "Bugger off we'll figure out health care for our own folks" from a distinct minority of states means about nothing at all in the over all picture.

That sounds good to me. I'll take that as a starting point.

jerrymrc
04-21-2010, 19:51
I could type a bunch of BS but I am trying to see how I am better now than I was in 1998/1988/1978/1968/1958. Now the 58 I can't claim to know first hand except I think I would have liked "huggies" instead of the cloth diapers.

The bozos that get elected seem to have this idea that more laws are needed. To the point that the USA as a whole is saturated with BS. Pick a point,say 1978 and start over. We may need to change that since Disco was in full swing but ya get the idea.

ronaldrwl
04-21-2010, 19:52
How about we pick 1776 and try again.

Mtn.man
04-21-2010, 19:58
I could type a bunch of BS but I am trying to see how I am better now than I was in 1998/1988/1978/1968/1958. Now the 58 I can't claim to know first hand except I think I would have liked "huggies" instead of the cloth diapers.

The bozos that get elected seem to have this idea that more laws are needed. To the point that the USA as a whole is saturated with BS. Pick a point,say 1978 and start over. We may need to change that since Disco was in full swing but ya get the idea.

Yeah disco was the begining of the downfall. JC was the original Obama, gays came outa the closet, hippies finally decided to become "establishment" (Bill and Hill),,, so maybe a little later or go WAY back to leave it to Beaver and Andy Griffith.

Troublco
04-21-2010, 21:01
"The longest journey starts with the first step", as some dead Chinese philosopher once said. Everything, and everyone, starts somewhere. Ben Franklin was at one time a fervent loyalist and believer in the British Empire. He wound up as one of our founding fathers.

iamhunter
04-22-2010, 08:36
There were several societal pressures that made the ground fertile for the movement to succeed. A war weary country, a fundamental shift in the opinions and mindsets of the 20-30 age range, Democratic party centrism and popularity all laid the ground open.



1. This country is definitely war weary.

2. There is a fundamental shift happening in the mindsets of many people, including the 20-30 range.

3. Instead of seeing party centrism, we're seeing something even better. Centrism of the PEOPLE. The public is growing tired of big government taking to much power and lording over their lives.


I'm not saying we're on the verge of a movement quite yet, but the seeds are definitely there, if not the sprouts.

Mtn.man
04-22-2010, 08:52
Hating the government finally goes mainstream

By: Chris Stirewalt (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bios/chris-stirewalt.html)
Political Editor
April 15, 2010


http://media.washingtonexaminer.com/images/250*157/041510polStirewalt_Paul.jpg(AP)
Three years ago, the Republican establishment piled scorn on the presidential candidacy of Ron Paul.
Today, he is in a statistical tie with President Obama in 2012 polling. His son, an ophthalmologist who has never run for elective office, is well ahead of not only the GOP's handpicked candidate for Senate in Kentucky but also both Democratic contenders -- all statewide officeholders.
What happened? Did America suddenly develop an insatiable appetite for 74-year-old, cranky congressmen from Texas? Is the gold standard catching on?
Paul will not likely be the next president. And his son still faces the most arduous part of his journey as Democrats spend millions to paint him as soft on defense, lax on drug enforcement and too radical on welfare programs.
But there's no doubt that hating the government and the powerful interests that pull Washington's strings has gone from the radical precincts of the Right and Left to the mainstream.
It turns out that watching Goldman Sachs, the United Auto Workers, public employee unions and a raft of other vampires drain the treasury at America's weakest moment in a generation will make a person pretty hacked off.
After Barack Obama's election, Democrats assumed that the American people were battered, bruised and ready for a morphine drip of European-style socialism. Republicans, shocked by their stunning reversals, figured the Democrats were right and started looking for technocrats of their own.
And in a political system fueled by special-interest money, it was hard for the leaders of major parties to imagine anything other than an activist government. After all, if you pay for someone to get elected, you don't expect him to just sit there.
Just 18 months ago the leaders of both parties were quite sure that Obama would be the popular, transformative president he aspires to be. The Republicans who emerged from the wreckage of November were certain to look a lot more like Charlie Crist and Mitt Romney than Marco Rubio and Ron Paul.
But Crist's embrace of Obamanomics seems to have utterly destroyed his chances at a Senate seat that was once his for the taking. Romney, considered a near lock for the 2012 Republican nomination, has seen his candidacy badly damaged by a populist revolt against the passage of a national health care plan that looks like the one he designed for Massachusetts.
Obama, who said that passage of his health plan proved that Washington could still do big things, finds himself deeply at odds with an electorate that is not confident of government's ability to do anything at all.
His election has turned out to be not the result of a national lurch toward government intervention but his own skill at disguising his policies, the failures of the Republican Party and the bursting of the lending bubble.
A year ago, the tea parties caught most everyone by surprise.
It was a conservative flash mob and hundreds of thousands of Americans took to the streets.
Republicans scrambled to get to the head of the parade and Democrats claimed that it was all a put-up job by their enemies in the special interest wars. The press tried to treat what had been a spontaneous outburst as if it were a traditional political party and asked all the questions they teach in journalism school: Who's in charge? Who are they opposed to? Is it racist?
This year, the political parties and the press will not be caught off guard. Republican politicians will address tea party rallies, Democrats will denounce the supposed puppeteers of the movement and the press will look for hate speech.
But few will glean the real meaning of the protests or the booming support for Ron and Rand Paul.
It's not about the Pauls themselves or the guys with the "Don't tread on me" flags It's about the people at home who might not be willing to march in the park or join the next Paul money bomb, but who don't blame the folks who do.
Libertarian sentiment has finally gone mainstream.
A movement that said that people should do whatever they wanted as long as it didn't hurt anyone else couldn't compete during the culture wars that began in the 1960s.
But after two wars, a $12 trillion debt, a financial crisis and the most politically tone-deaf president in modern history, Americans may have finally given up on big government.
Chris Stirewalt is the political editor of the Washington Examiner. He can be reached at cstirewalt@... (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/mailto:cstirewalt@washingtonexaminer.com).

BigBear
04-22-2010, 08:55
"Down with Whitey!!!"... oh wait... I need to go back to bed.

Restarting in the 70's would be good... Then we can still have Tower of Power, Chicago, Maynard, The Elements (Earth, Wind, and Fire), Cold Blood, et al.

Mtn.man
04-22-2010, 09:03
U fergot Uncle Ted.... OH,,, we still got him....

BigBear
04-22-2010, 09:07
U fergot Uncle Ted.... OH,,, we still got him....

HAHAHAHAHA. Hopefully not for long.[M2]

TFOGGER
04-22-2010, 09:17
Social inertia is a powerful force. While most here are more socially aware than average(as well as having a better historical perspective), the average citizen is no going to do anything to upset the status quo unless (s)he is made to feel uncomfortable in a profound way. As long as the .gov continues to buffer the consequences of bad decision making (bad mortgages, failure to buy insurance, choosing to enter this country illegally, selling/abusing addictive drugs, etc.), the average Joe will grumble about "those jerks in DC", then continue to pay their taxes and watch Survivor. The TEA party is making all the right noises, but in the end is only a distraction. There is no real difference between the Dems and Repubs, both are interested in seizing more control over the monster that the .gov has become(at every level from the cities upwards). Apathy and inertia can only be overcome by some polarizing action, not being nibbled to death by ducks as we have allowed ourselves to be over the last 120 years or so. I'm not sure where I'm going with this post, but my level of frustration with those that can't see the precipice down the road because they are staring at their feet is growing daily. What kind of event is it going to take for people to realize that they are the frogs in the slowly heating pot of water? [Bang]

iamhunter
04-22-2010, 10:17
Social inertia is a powerful force. While most here are more socially aware than average(as well as having a better historical perspective), the average citizen is no going to do anything to upset the status quo unless (s)he is made to feel uncomfortable in a profound way. As long as the .gov continues to buffer the consequences of bad decision making (bad mortgages, failure to buy insurance, choosing to enter this country illegally, selling/abusing addictive drugs, etc.), the average Joe will grumble about "those jerks in DC", then continue to pay their taxes and watch Survivor. The TEA party is making all the right noises, but in the end is only a distraction. There is no real difference between the Dems and Repubs, both are interested in seizing more control over the monster that the .gov has become(at every level from the cities upwards). Apathy and inertia can only be overcome by some polarizing action, not being nibbled to death by ducks as we have allowed ourselves to be over the last 120 years or so. I'm not sure where I'm going with this post, but my level of frustration with those that can't see the precipice down the road because they are staring at their feet is growing daily. What kind of event is it going to take for people to realize that they are the frogs in the slowly heating pot of water? [Bang]

more and more people realize every day.

You may not notice because of your location, surroundings, etc.

But I have a lot of family and friends back in the big cities I left behind,

and every day I here more and more how fed up they are, and watch as they take a more active approach in politics, etc.

More states are passing laws nullifying federal regulations,

more people are pushing gun rights.

More people are attending tea parties.

It's not a full fledged movement yet,

but the wheels have begun to turn.

Instead of sitting around grumbling how everyone is so naive and blind,

I would encourage you instead, to try and open as many eyes as possible.

Mtn.man
04-22-2010, 10:19
HAHAHAHAHA. Hopefully not for long.[M2]
what u talking bout Willis?

BigBear
04-22-2010, 10:22
uh oh, maybe I misunderstood your post... you mentioned we still have "uncle ted" around. I assumed you meant Ted Kennedy as "Uncle Ted" due to his liberal approaches and "nanny state" mentality... but now I just realized my comment is faux pas as he died last year didn't he... Sorry.

Mtn.man
04-22-2010, 10:24
There is only ONE Uncle Ted.. Kennedy was not an American.....

http://biggeekdaddy.com/miscvideos/TedNugent.html

BigBear
04-22-2010, 10:36
Oh HAHAHAHAHA... yes, big misunderstanding. My apologies... I've heard the reference to "Uncle Ted" being more directed towards Kennedy.

I apologize!

Mtn.man
04-22-2010, 10:45
You are forgive grasshopper, with more wisdom to come your way you will see the path to take.

BadShot
04-22-2010, 16:01
iamhunter... I almost agree with you here. I guess in my encounters and societal impressions I'm not seeing what you must be. What's worse is that I do work for the .gov and the prevalence of socialist attitudes isn't the issue, it's the bureaucratic inertia and entrenchment. But sadly these folks here constitute the majority of my non-like minded social interactions! [Bang]



1. This country is definitely war weary.

--- This country as a society never went to war. We sent our military off to foreign lands and went back to living a secluded and ignorant life, at peace with the knowledge that someone else would take care of the bad guys for us.


2. There is a fundamental shift happening in the mindsets of many people, including the 20-30 range.

--- Sadly, that fundamental shift is one moving more towards an idealized form of socialism, peppered with a distinct lack of personal responsibility and true understanding that the world is a very very shitty place. See comment response #1


3. Instead of seeing party centrism, we're seeing something even better. Centrism of the PEOPLE. The public is growing tired of big government taking to much power and lording over their lives.

--- The people, society in general, has always been centrist. But the absolute majority are disengaged because as noted, their world is not impacted. The public as a whole is no more fed up with government today than they've been in more than 40 years. Sorry I just don't see a few small rallies as a sign that more folks are engaged.



I'm not saying we're on the verge of a movement quite yet, but the seeds are definitely there, if not the sprouts.

---- I sure as hell hope so, I do my part, I encourage everyone to. In the end, we are not, right, wrong or otherwise, at the point societally where there are enough colliding issues to cause actual change. But hey, we've got spiffy slogans, a fresh batch of talking heads and a media and government that really does know what it's doing right?

HA!

Thanks for the reasoned and rational debate here guys!

Irving
04-22-2010, 16:10
The average person wants to go to work, make money, then go home. They want problems to be fixed by people whose job is specifically to fix problems. We are a specialized, compartmentalized society, and that includes blame and problem solving.