View Full Version : It might get worse for us in CO
Just looking for some illegal immigration issues for CO and found Ritter has failed us in the past (obviously),
link:
http://digitalartpress.wordpress.com/2008/02/24/governor-ritter-refuses-to-inforce-colorados-illegal-immigration-law/
here is the thing that really caught my eye:
"According to the Denver Post, February 6, 2008, approximately 500,000 illegal aliens are in Colorado. This annually costs Coloradans $564.1 million for education, $38.4 million for medical costs, and $20 million for prisons. When you add the costs of free breakfasts, lunches, lost taxes of under the table wages, unemployment to illegals, and the unemployment of Coloradans whose jobs have been taken by the illegal workforce, illegal immigration cost the taxpayers of Colorado $1 BILLION ANNUALLY. This is just the money, the illegals are also causing untold strife from drunk driving deaths, rapes, drug trafficking, and murders."
There was another thread in reference to our public education, and like every other .gov program, it needs some work. I know this first hand, a lot more than probably most everyone else here.
seeing that illegal aliens cost the state close to 1 Billion absolutely blows my mind. I knew the costs were high, but didn't know they were this high.
Now this all all in 2008, maybe the numbers have dropped with the recession, but with AZ's new bill I can be pretty positive we are going to see and increase in illegals...which Ritter is going to do nothing about.
Now there is another bill that just passed the senate:
http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20100430/NEWS/100439976/1077&ParentProfile=1058
I agree with a lot of the points in the bill but it definitely needs to work to be effective for teachers, students and the tax payers. hopefully those issues can be addressed. the only problem with this bill is the amount of money it will cost to retrain evaluators under new standards (since it is .gov work it will be ridiculously high i am sure).
Right now the budget has been cut about 2.5 million for next year in my local district (27J), which put several new teachers out of a job. the other issues are that next year class sizes are going to increase (probably even more than expected with illegal immigrants coming to CO). that just means kids are going to get less one on one with teachers, less learning will happen, it becomes harder for kids to pay attention and harder for teachers to keep things on task in the classroom.
So I guess what I am getting to is illegal immigration, even it cut in half, 500 million a year could get pumped into the school systems to start improving public education...it is after all our, our tax dollars being used to pay the teachers, teach the illegals, feed them lunches etc. not to mention anyone that is looking for a job or unemployed currently would have their chances of finding a job increased significantly.
It is too bad we have a governor that wants to take away from those that teach most of our kids, eliminate programs to keep them out of trouble during and after school and let the illegals have their way with the state. something to remember when we start thinking about the candidates.
Unfortunately, I think it is going to be worse than you think. Once Arizona's new immigration enforcement law goes into effect all those illegals will go elsewhere. Which is more likely;
1) They will go back to thier country of origin.
2) They will move on to another state that does not have a law like this.
Most likely the answer is #2.
Jumpstart
04-30-2010, 19:23
When NAFTA was passed back in the early 90's my Dad said, " This place is going to look like Mexico". He of course, was right.
Unfortunately, I think it is going to be worse than you think. Once Arizona's new immigration enforcement law goes into effect all those illegals will go elsewhere. Which is more likely;
1) They will go back to thier country of origin.
2) They will move on to another state that does not have a law like this.
Most likely the answer is #2.
Yeah I pointed option #2 and said they would probably come here, just sad Ritter won't do anything about it.
I know Utah introduced similar legislation, almost identical to AZ
I bet it's easierto cross the border into Colorado too [ROFL2].
Sniper, are you an admin or teacher or something?
"Yeah I pointed option #2" - Sorry, misread that statement.
If I remember right; TX, UT, and one other state are introducing similar bills.
I bet it's easierto cross the border into Colorado too [ROFL2].
Sniper, are you an admin or teacher or something?
no I come from a family of teachers, I just drive airplanes
Sniper7:that sounds like fun! lucky
Ah I see
I do substitute though on some of my days off. not a full out certified teacher, but couldn't get that pretty quick with some extra college courses if I desired
funkfool
05-01-2010, 12:28
here is the thing that really caught my eye:
"According to the Denver Post, February 6, 2008, approximately 500,000 illegal aliens are in Colorado. This annually costs Coloradans $564.1 million for education, $38.4 million for medical costs, and $20 million for prisons. When you add the costs of free breakfasts, lunches, lost taxes of under the table wages, unemployment to illegals, and the unemployment of Coloradans whose jobs have been taken by the illegal workforce, illegal immigration cost the taxpayers of Colorado $1 BILLION ANNUALLY. This is just the money, the illegals are also causing untold strife from drunk driving deaths, rapes, drug trafficking, and murders."
This is why I just changed my Colorado State witholding exemptions to 9. They aren't going to get my money and then try to give me an IOU when tax time rolls around. I'll put that money in an account and mail you a check in April.
trlcavscout
05-02-2010, 11:17
I am not anti-immigration, I am married to a Mexican woman, and alot of my friends are Mexican. But I am anti-illegal immigration. In my work I have to check ID's everywhere I go and in Greeley I can tell you there are alot of no US id, fake US id and even fake MX id.
I does give me the warm fuzzy feeling when the person that cannot produce any state or fed issued ID or passport has 2 brand new vehicles, 3 big screen tv's, nice house (supplied by habitat for humanity) and then you see them at the grocery store buying $300 worth of steak and lobster on food stamps, they take that to the car and go back in and buy $300 worth of beer in cash. When after working all week, paying my familys health ins and TAXES (which pay for there food stamps, medical, and what not) I can only afford $150 for groceries and no damn beer! I need to go to MX city and get me a consulate ID!!! Maybe get a drivers license from Chihuahua [Mad]
I am not anti-immigration, I am married to a Mexican woman, and alot of my friends are Mexican. But I am anti-illegal immigration. In my work I have to check ID's everywhere I go and in Greeley I can tell you there are alot of no US id, fake US id and even fake MX id.
I does give me the warm fuzzy feeling when the person that cannot produce any state or fed issued ID or passport has 2 brand new vehicles, 3 big screen tv's, nice house (supplied by habitat for humanity) and then you see them at the grocery store buying $300 worth of steak and lobster on food stamps, they take that to the car and go back in and buy $300 worth of beer in cash. When after working all week, paying my familys health ins and TAXES (which pay for there food stamps, medical, and what not) I can only afford $150 for groceries and no damn beer! I need to go to MX city and get me a consulate ID!!! Maybe get a drivers license from Chihuahua [Mad]
If any of us tried this in Mexico they'd throw us in the hoosegow. Here, due to the bleeding heart candy ass mentality and seemingly bottomless pit of government funding (confiscated from citizens) illegals get treated better than citizens.
There are 2 sets of laws in Colorado, one for citizens and a much more lenient set for illegals.
To answer the OP, yes, things are going to get much worse for citizens. Illegal aliens are quickly realizing that they can murder, rape, and steal without consequence to themselves. My only hope is that those who support and condone illegal aliens and illegal immigration suffer the majority of these crimes.
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 12:39
Serious question, with your guestimated of $1billion cost due to these folks, and $2 billion in CO budget shortfall, would you pay an extra tax for ICE enforcement to solve long term problems?
I know ICE is federal not State, but say CO is to adopt AZ style law and provide facilities for ICE to be more efficient. Would you pay the extra tax?
SA Friday
05-02-2010, 12:48
It isn't feasible for the local PD to do what AZ is doing. We have no border with Mexico. ICE would have to be involved, and quite frankly, they are ineffectual. I've dealt with them before on a professional, lateral level and they are worthless as tits on a bull. AZ PD can at least bus the illegals to the border and toss them themselves. CO PD's lose their authority at the border.
funkfool
05-02-2010, 13:27
When after working all week, paying my familys health ins and TAXES (which pay for there food stamps, medical, and what not) I can only afford $150 for groceries and no damn beer!
I have seen this too...
And:
I will buy you a beer!
[Beer]
If any of us tried this in Mexico they'd throw us in the hoosegow.
Haha, we must be thinking of different countries. Have you ever been to Mexico? You can do whatever you want there. I can't imagine that people leave a country that had 50,000 of their military leave the force and join drug cartels in 2008, go to the US because they know it will be easier to commit crimes up here.
Haha, we must be thinking of different countries. Have you ever been to Mexico? You can do whatever you want there. I can't imagine that people leave a country that had 50,000 of their military leave the force and join drug cartels in 2008, go to the US because they know it will be easier to commit crimes up here.
Yeah they let those guatemaltecos and salvadorenos just walk right over the border. Mexico is sooo much easier on illegal immigrants that the U.S.
And for that matter, mexicans are never, ever racist.
They are even tidier than americans.
You bunch of racists gotta realize, that if ANYONE is to blame for this whole mess, it sure as hell isn't those gentle mexicans.
They let those guys over the boarder when they have drugs, guns, or cash. Mexico has some very strict laws, if you can find someone to enforce them.
It is a matter of economic advantage, the gov doesn't pay them dirt and the cartels have pretty deep pockets so of course the cops are going to choose to look the other way
Serious question, with your guestimated of $1billion cost due to these folks, and $2 billion in CO budget shortfall, would you pay an extra tax for ICE enforcement to solve long term problems?
I know ICE is federal not State, but say CO is to adopt AZ style law and provide facilities for ICE to be more efficient. Would you pay the extra tax?
sure, i will pick up some extra tax, right after they tax the shit out of marijuana, sell off all the homes used for free housing of the illegals, confiscate and auction off all vehicles and other property owned/obtained by the illegals and get my vehicle insurance reduced to take off "uninsured motorist coverage", apply the saved money from tax stamps and whatever else they receive to the budget. oh, and once unemployed americans take the construction jobs and whatever else is left over who will then pay taxes on the money they earn. I guess I could also factor in the huge savings from health insurance, reduced need for prison space (might be negligible...not sure on that one), the saved tax dollars for law enforcement and judicial system to work the extra murders, rapes, theft cases. I am sure I am missing quite a bit. but once those have been satisfied and if we are still short on some cash i will be more than happy to pay some extra taxes.
It isn't feasible for the local PD to do what AZ is doing. We have no border with Mexico. ICE would have to be involved, and quite frankly, they are ineffectual. I've dealt with them before on a professional, lateral level and they are worthless as tits on a bull. AZ PD can at least bus the illegals to the border and toss them themselves. CO PD's lose their authority at the border.
I have watched them fly a 727 full of illegals out of colorado springs a couple times.
Haha, we must be thinking of different countries. Have you ever been to Mexico? You can do whatever you want there. I can't imagine that people leave a country that had 50,000 of their military leave the force and join drug cartels in 2008, go to the US because they know it will be easier to commit crimes up here.
get caught with a gun heading down into mexico...wonder what will happen.
the name "thunderdick" comes to mind....[Help]
Jumpstart
05-02-2010, 16:42
I have watched them fly a 727 full of illegals out of colorado springs a couple times.
Greyhounds buses. Mexico is a day trip 10 hours max.
It is astonishing to me that you guys want to take the things that are great about America, throw them in the trash and turn our country into another North Korea or Mexico. People come here because it is a land of opportunity where it doesn't matter what color you are or how you got here, as long as you can take care of yourself, you'll be given the opportunity to prosper.
No one is moving to North Korea or Mexico because they just don't want you there, and do not allow even the chance of opportunity.
On the other hand, there is China which has similarly strict rules, but all you have to do flash some cash and have a business plan. If they think you'll be able to employ some people and increase their GDP, then they'll build a factory FOR YOU, free of charge according to another member here.
There is a reason no one wants to go to North Korea, please stop pretending that if we act like those shitty countries, it will make our country better. It's dumb and you have 200 years of history to review to prove otherwise.
Just like your comment in the other thread about how we should send anchor babies back just because their parents didn't get here through legal channels. The difference between that kid, and you, is absolutely nothing. Well, except that you feel some ridiculous sense of entitlement over the brown guy and want to punish him for his parents crimes. Maybe we should throw the families of other criminals in jail for the same amount of time just because their parents committed a crime. That sounds like something the greatest country in the world would do. Not to mention the fact that you can't send someone "back" to a place they've never been before. Reminds me of the Klan members going on Jerry Springer in the early 90's telling 5th generation American born black people to "go back to Africa."
I think that there was another country that had some sort of system where people were only allowed to prosper if they were born into the right families....oh yeah, it was Britain. Long live the Queen and all that. We ran from them because that system is bullshit remember?
So I guess keep marching around with your ideas of turning America into another North Korea, only with a brand new cast system. Sounds like a great time to me. After we get rid of all the people we don't feel are "entitled" to the bounties of our country currently, then someone else is going to have to fill the void of the targeted class. Who is it going to be first? People without a college education? People who aren't land owners? Oh boy! I can't wait.
Greyhounds buses. Mexico is a day trip 10 hours max.
definitely would have been cheaper...but it IS the .gov[Bang]
they brought them to the plane by bus...does that count?
Jumpstart
05-02-2010, 17:20
definitely would have been cheaper...but it IS the .gov[Bang]
they brought them to the plane by bus...does that count?
It sure does, planes, trains or automobiles. Get em gone.
It is astonishing to me that you guys want to take the things that are great about America, throw them in the trash and turn our country into another North Korea or Mexico. People come here because it is a land of opportunity where it doesn't matter what color you are or how you got here, as long as you can take care of yourself, you'll be given the opportunity to prosper.
Yes, they come here, and they are allowed to come here through legal means, hoping the border and calling yourself a benefit to the American Dream is not what this country is founded on...
No one is moving to North Korea or Mexico because they just don't want you there, and do not allow even the chance of opportunity.
On the other hand, there is China which has similarly strict rules, but all you have to do flash some cash and have a business plan. If they think you'll be able to employ some people and increase their GDP, then they'll build a factory FOR YOU, free of charge according to another member here.
I would LOVE to see the info on this, also, do you notice how you aren't saying to just hop the border, say from Korea (since you are mentioning that) and start trying to live off their people? Coming to the US with a proposal and cash is a lot of what the LEGAL immigration channel is about. maybe you should research this site:
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
There is a reason no one wants to go to North Korea, please stop pretending that if we act like those shitty countries, it will make our country better. It's dumb and you have 200 years of history to review to prove otherwise.
We have progressed as a nation to the point where we are now at a 10% unemployment rate...that means there aren't enough jobs in case you don't understand, although i think you do since you said you are searching.
During times like these in the past, "operation wetback" went into effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
maybe you should look a bit more at our history and the steps taken when we were in need of jobs.
BigBear posted his story about an illegal taking the job he was applying for because it was cheaper labor. In the end that illegal cost the company employing his less, but cost the taxpayers a shit ton (lost taxes plus the free benefits the illegal received for himself and his family)
As far as i have seen everyone is in agreement that LEGAL immigration is just fine, we all support it and support the people that go through the channels to be a productive part of our society...just as you mention CHINA said they would build a factory (waiting for truth about that though), our country wants immigrants that will help enhance our country and continue to make it a place where you can achieve the "American Dream".
that so called dream is SHIT upon by illegal immigrants who come here to work the system, take jobs from American citizens and LEGAL immigrants then send the money home to families in mexico.
Just like your comment in the other thread about how we should send anchor babies back just because their parents didn't get here through legal channels. The difference between that kid, and you, is absolutely nothing. Well, except that you feel some ridiculous sense of entitlement over the brown guy and want to punish him for his parents crimes. Maybe we should throw the families of other criminals in jail for the same amount of time just because their parents committed a crime. That sounds like something the greatest country in the world would do. Not to mention the fact that you can't send someone "back" to a place they've never been before. Reminds me of the Klan members going on Jerry Springer in the early 90's telling 5th generation American born black people to "go back to Africa."
As to me having some supposed sense of entitlement, considering my background comes from LEGAL immigrants (English and German) and NATIVE AMERICANS who had gone through the process of legal citizenship as well as being here before the US was ever a country, maybe I have earned that sense of entitlement.
I will give you points about the anchor babies, but comparing that issue to a Klan issue is not the same. The slaves were brought here (most of them against their will or due to lies) while illegals hop the border, know it is illegal, and have the kid on US soil...that is why they are called anchor babies. while you are at looking up some history, take a look at what Lincoln wanted to do with slaves as well as James Monroe...ever hear of Monrovia?
"In 1824, the city was renamed to Monrovia after James Monroe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe), then President of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States), and a prominent supporter of the colony in sending freed African-American slaves to Liberia, saw it as preferable than emancipation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation) in America. It is the only non-American capital city named after a U.S. President."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monrovia
I think that there was another country that had some sort of system where people were only allowed to prosper if they were born into the right families....oh yeah, it was Britain. Long live the Queen and all that. We ran from them because that system is bullshit remember?
So I guess keep marching around with your ideas of turning America into another North Korea, only with a brand new cast system. Sounds like a great time to me. After we get rid of all the people we don't feel are "entitled" to the bounties of our country currently, then someone else is going to have to fill the void of the targeted class. Who is it going to be first? People without a college education? People who aren't land owners? Oh boy! I can't wait.
So you are really saying you honestly believe ILLEGAL immigrants are entitled to the bounties our this country...to receive benefits offered thanks the hard work of citizens and LEGAL immigrants...benefits which were developed when those citizens and LEGAL immigrants were in a time of need? The targeted class broke the law to begin with when they cut, dug, hopped, swam or drove their way into the country illegally. you really think they should be entitled to anything, given a high five, slap on the back and amnesty for breaking the law?
I eagerly await your response to this one...
Haha, we must be thinking of different countries. Have you ever been to Mexico? You can do whatever you want there. I can't imagine that people leave a country that had 50,000 of their military leave the force and join drug cartels in 2008, go to the US because they know it will be easier to commit crimes up here.
My statement was based on this article and links it contains.
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/04/28/police-state-how-mexico-treats-illegal-aliens/
Yes, I think it is easier for them to commit crimes up here AND they get free food, housing, and education for their kids.
First of all, I'd love to see any citation on ANYTHING you've ever claimed about illegals, especially about you having to pay more insurance cost. You obviously don't understand how insurance works to believe that one.
We're in a natural recession due to a lot of things that have nothing to do with illegal immigrants. I'm not at all surprised that you go to the lengths that you do to blame every problem you see on illegals. I also noticed that you didn't read my other thread, because I'm looking for a new job because I don't like my current job.
Let's see, next you reference more drivel of illegals costing American tax payers money. Again, wrongly assuming that just because you are here illegally, that you must be automatically be a leach. You fall talk about how illegals take advantage of social programs, yet aren't documented enough to pay any taxes.
Next, you mention that your family came here legally, so that means you've earned the right to be here. You didn't earn anything. You are just as much of an anchor baby as anyone else who happened to have been born here. Your legal status is a coincidence of circumstance. You're no better than a Mexican anchor baby that was born here as a coincidence of circumstance due to their parents illegal actions. I know it makes you angry to hear that, but it is completely true.
Next you mention that slaves where brought here against their will. I must have missed the part where all the minors in Mexico were allowed a vote of whether they wanted their parents to drag them through the desert, across the boarder. Perhaps the pregnant mother asked her fetus which country it would like to have been born in before she popped him/her out?
I'm not going to fault you for putting words in my mouth, since you obviously can't grasp the point that I'm trying to make here.
What I honestly believe is that you don't have a clue as to solve the problem that you don't even fully understand. The scope of this issue is much larger than either you or I can explain (or else we'd each be writing reform bills instead of arguing about it). I honestly believe that "solutions" that you've suggested are short sighted at best. I suppose an analogy would be that while just throwing people into jail for drug use is a punishment, it does absolutely nothing to address the issue of the drug use itself.
To be clear, I'm not asking you to come up with solutions to address our immigration issue (mostly because I don't think you're capable), I'm just critiquing the ideas you've suggested thus far. In the event that you actually suggest something that is more than short sighted and less than well thought out, at best, then I'll be the first person to commend you on the great idea.
For what it is worth, I don't disagree with the idea of immediately deporting someone who has committed a crime and is shown to have come from another country. If they aren't documented, but aren't documented anywhere else, then that person is our problem to deal with. I just don't know if our law enforcement has the authority or ability to ship people back to Mexico if they are caught breaking the law. I have a feeling that the 747 full of illegals was the result of a Federal Immigration investigation, and not just local law enforcement. Plus, you have to have the same punishment for everyone. So when that guy from China who over stayed his summer vacation gets busted doing something, you're going to have to deport him as well. The question is, are you going to hold onto him until you have a whole airplane full of illegal Chinese to send home? Or are you going to have an escort send him home on a plane full of civilians?
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 19:16
First of all, I'd love to see any citation on ANYTHING you've ever claimed about illegals, especially about you having to pay more insurance cost. You obviously don't understand how insurance works to believe that one.
For me personally, my lady's car was rear ended 3 years ago by an undocumented individual. 2 weeks of chasing him down for insurance (he claimed to have one at the accident) ended up fruitless. Even-though I had noninsured motorist coverage, I had to pay the $500 deductible and despite the disclaimer and fine prints, my insurance rate went up the next year with no new tickets, accidents at our fault etc.
I am not taking anyone side, but as far as cost of living rise due to the illegals are indisputable to me personally.
Good debate so far!
Let's see, next you reference more drivel of illegals costing American tax payers money. Again, wrongly assuming that just because you are here illegally, that you must be automatically be a leach. You fall talk about how illegals take advantage of social programs, yet aren't documented enough to pay any taxes.
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/coloradocosts.pdf?docID=%202381
Sup.
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 19:24
Nationwide study by Bear Stearns on the cost and implication in 2005
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 19:27
Greyhounds buses. Mexico is a day trip 10 hours max.
Obviously you never took a woman in a car trip. 10 Hours = 15 hours including all the piss stops.
First of all, I'd love to see any citation on ANYTHING you've ever claimed about illegals, especially about you having to pay more insurance cost. You obviously don't understand how insurance works to believe that one.
here you go we will start with health insurance:
http://www.cis.org/IllegalsAndHealthCareHR3200
Among the findings:
We estimate that there were 6.6 million illegal immigrants without health insurance in 2007 who had incomes below 400 percent of the poverty level, which is the income ceiling for the proposed affordable premium credits.
If all uninsured illegal immigrants with incomes below 400 percent of poverty received the proposed credits, the estimated cost to the federal government would be $30.5 billion annually.
We estimate the current cost of treating uninsured illegal immigrants at all levels of government to be $4.3 billion a year, primarily at emergency rooms and free clinics.last time I looked the federal government doesn't make any money and seems to use/give away more tax dollars (that most of us pay) than it brings in.
A very large amount of illegal immigrants don't carry auto insurance...they buy the vehicle for cash, they don't want to get insurance because that requires a lot of info/documents which they either don't have or are stolen, so they don't get it. who pays in the end...people who are hit by them without uninsured motorist coverage, be it with their lives or just their car.
We're in a natural recession due to a lot of things that have nothing to do with illegal immigrants. I'm not at all surprised that you go to the lengths that you do to blame every problem you see on illegals. I also noticed that you didn't read my other thread, because I'm looking for a new job because I don't like my current job.
Again, take a look at "operation wetback", during the previous recessions, and after WWII since the unemployment rate was so high (just as it is today), that program was implemented. obviously it worked since things turned around...and I would have to say it is a whole lot better than tossing $700+ billion at banks and car manufacturers.
It still has something to do with illegal immigrants
Let's see, next you reference more drivel of illegals costing American tax payers money. Again, wrongly assuming that just because you are here illegally, that you must be automatically be a leach. You fall talk about how illegals take advantage of social programs, yet aren't documented enough to pay any taxes.
maybe you didn't read my article where illegals cost Colorado alone over 1 billion in 2008....
Next, you mention that your family came here legally, so that means you've earned the right to be here. You didn't earn anything. You are just as much of an anchor baby as anyone else who happened to have been born here. Your legal status is a coincidence of circumstance. You're no better than a Mexican anchor baby that was born here as a coincidence of circumstance due to their parents illegal actions. I know it makes you angry to hear that, but it is completely true.
so please tell me what your background is and why you shouldn't be deported?
Next you mention that slaves where brought here against their will. I must have missed the part where all the minors in Mexico were allowed a vote of whether they wanted their parents to drag them through the desert, across the boarder. (spelling...) Perhaps the pregnant mother asked her fetus which country it would like to have been born in before she popped him/her out?
I'm not going to fault you for putting words in my mouth, since you obviously can't grasp the point that I'm trying to make here.
i still don't see any point other than you want to harbor and protect illegal immigrants in this country who have broken the law...something I despise liberals for since it is dollars out of my pocket each and every day.
What I honestly believe is that you don't have a clue as to solve the problem that you don't even fully understand. The scope of this issue is much larger than either you or I can explain (or else we'd each be writing reform bills instead of arguing about it). I honestly believe that "solutions" that you've suggested are short sighted at best. I suppose an analogy would be that while just throwing people into jail for drug use is a punishment, it does absolutely nothing to address the issue of the drug use itself.
last time I checked, that is the way our jail system works. what does putting a murderer do to address him killing someone besides preventing him (at least try to) from doing it again until he gets out (if he does). the same applies to drug use, they don't get to use the drugs unless brought it...
To be clear, I'm not asking you to come up with solutions to address our immigration issue (mostly because I don't think you're capable), I'm just critiquing the ideas you've suggested thus far. In the event that you actually suggest something that is more than short sighted and less than well thought out, at best, then I'll be the first person to commend you on the great idea.
If anything can be said, lessons from the past can be learned from. In previous times such as we are in now, illegals were removed from the country, forcefully and against their will, in massive numbers. it worked then, it will work now. that is what I am all for. give me your solution...
For what it is worth, I don't disagree with the idea of immediately deporting someone who has committed a crime and is shown to have come from another country. If they aren't documented, but aren't documented anywhere else, then that person is our problem to deal with. I just don't know if our law enforcement has the authority or ability to ship people back to Mexico if they are caught breaking the law. I have a feeling that the 747 full of illegals was the result of a Federal Immigration investigation, and not just local law enforcement. Plus, you have to have the same punishment for everyone. So when that guy from China who over stayed his summer vacation gets busted doing something, you're going to have to deport him as well. The question is, are you going to hold onto him until you have a whole airplane full of illegal Chinese to send home? Or are you going to have an escort send him home on a plane full of civilians?
You still don't understand they commited a crime just by stepping foot on our soil. If someone walked into your house and was eating YOUR food, from YOUR refigerator, drinking YOUR beer, would you not be quick to escort them outside...or worse? Just because it isn't on a personal level with you doesn't mean that it isn't a problem, that it isn't something that needs to be addressed, and something that is illegal and needs to be punished for.
nobody said anything about a 747...it was a 727. BIG difference.
They send illegal and legal immigrants home from other countries who have overstayed their legal welcome whether it is on a work permit, or vacation (again go read the immigration website, obviosully you didn't look at it). the issue is with mostly with mexico because they come over in droves by walking, hopping, digging, driving, swimming their way across our border. It is a little bit harder for the chinese to do that, especially in massive numbers.
I still don't understand why you are defending all the illegals, you aren't telling us the whole story...are you afraid someone close to you is going to get sent away? Are you going to get sent away? do you just have a soft spot for the illegals and think they are coming over in massive numbers to benefit you and our country in some way. you have provided no links, no information, no arguments to otherwise prove me wrong or even give yourself a leg to stand on in this arguement.
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/coloradocosts.pdf?docID=%202381
Sup.
great find, especially for your first post. head over to the newbie section and introduce yourself[Beer]
Nationwide study by Bear Stearns on the cost and implication in 2005
http://www.illegalaliens.us/images/Bear%20Stearns%20Study.pdf
more great info.
come on stuart, where is your info to dispute these numbers, these findings...all this data that has cost more money to research....
more great info.
come on stuart, where is your info to dispute these numbers, these findings...all this data that has cost more money to research....
His argument is purely emotional. Intentionally blurring the lines between legal immigration and illegal immigration, asking for citation as though the facts are invented while he presents none of his own, etc.
Once the facts are presented, the whole emotional argument falls apart. The only recourse he has now is to attack those who did the research, as though he knows better than professionals.
Cheers. [Beer]
Jumpstart
05-02-2010, 19:55
great find, especially for your first post. head over to the newbie section and introduce yourself[Beer]
I agree, heckuva good start. Welcome Anton.
great find, especially for your first post. head over to the newbie section and introduce yourself[Beer]
I agree, heckuva good start. Welcome Anton.
Thanks guys. I firmly believe in finding the facts for myself and sharing what I find with others makes it worthwhile.
The FAIR site has the costs of illegal immigration to taxpayers for each state, too, but I don't believe a similar publication exists for every state.
Here are their publications for Arizona, California, and Texas, too...
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/azcosts2.pdf?docID=101
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/ca_costs.pdf?docID=141
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/texas_costs.pdf?docID=301
Thanks guys. I firmly believe in finding the facts for myself and sharing what I find with others makes it worthwhile.
The FAIR site has the costs of illegal immigration to taxpayers for each state, too, but I don't believe a similar publication exists for every state.
Here are their publications for Arizona, California, and Texas, too...
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/azcosts2.pdf?docID=101
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/ca_costs.pdf?docID=141
http://www.fairus.org/site/DocServer/texas_costs.pdf?docID=301
These are great. Thank you.
ronaldrwl
05-02-2010, 20:20
Uncontrolled immigration is costly for us all. It's just common sense. You can only divide the American pie so many times. I'm at a lost for words how anyone on this forum would argue otherwise. Open your eyes to what's around you. In just my life: I see how much money we spend on educating illegals in the Denver school system. My sister-in-law is a teacher there. Those teachers go through hell to educate these illegals. And it's all for nothing. The students don't see themselves as Americans. They leave for months at a time going back to their homeland (Mexico). They only take advantage of our generously. The teachers are put through hell. The one day in the semester the students are counted for attendance reimbursement for the schools, the teachers have to go to each students house and beg the parents to make sure the students attend that day. The parents do not care about the education it's just daycare for the day. They take their kids and leave for weeks, months at a time. It's just one big screwed up mess. You wouldn't believe the stories of how much money is spent on these illegals. And again, it's all for nothing. They don't have our values. They are not Americans. They don't give a crap about our country. They are just taking advantage of us. These teaches are mostly brain washed liberals that think they are making a difference. They give 100% of themselves for these non-Americans. It's such a waste.
They don't have our values. They are not Americans. They don't give a crap about our country.
That's the primary issue for me. I prefer to have an argument where I can present firm numbers and solid facts, but the lack of integration is a far bigger threat to America than the monetary costs. When my ancestors came to America from 'the old country', they forbid their children from speaking anything but English. I'm sure it wasn't easy to forget where they came from but they worked hard to become Americans and even changed the family surname to make it more American.
I'm sure there are many immigrants today who work hard to integrate. But there are even more who want to change America to reflect their home country so they don't have to. I've never been more disgusted in my life than when I saw the immigration protests around the country a couple years ago and saw "Americans" burning the American flag and waving the Mexican flag. That shows me where their loyalty lies.
It might be un-PC but I'm going to call it how I see it. Do you really want America to look like Mexico, economically, culturally, politically? Some people do. [Bang]
-First of all, I'm not defending any illegals at all what so ever. I'm telling you that your ideas are dumb.
-IF all the illegals used resources, the amount would add up to X amount, but they don't and it doesn't. Excellent point. 15% costs (still estimated) of the total possible figure (estimated) sounds like a great reason to re-institute some obscure practice the government practiced for a few months 50 years ago. I guess since my kitchen sink leaks, I'll go ahead and re-plumb my entire house. (my sink doesn't leak by the way).
-I can't pretend that most illegals, personally purchase auto insurance for the vehicles that they drive. However, I also know better than to just assume that all, or even a majority of illegals are getting into auto accidents with any frequency. When was the last time you caused an auto accident? I suppose that I have to assume that people who were born here are automatically better drivers than someone who wasn't born here? I'm going to guess that my personal experience as a claims adjuster handling 1,000s of auto claims over a period of a few years showed me that approx 1 out of 200 claims dealt with an uninsured vehicle, and even less than that with people who were here illegally means anything to anyone, so I won't even bother mentioning that.
-MB888, your rates most likely went up due to the rate adjustments that companies do every single quarter. It's illegal to raise your rates for a not-at-fault accident in this state. My insurance has been going down every six months for the past few years so that I pay over $100 less a month than when I first bought a policy with the company that I'm with now. Who am I supposed to blame that on? Your own driving record and choice of vehicle has a much greater affect on what you pay a month than illegal immigrants could EVER have. Insurance fraud is the major cause of higher rates, not illegal immigrants. Not to mention that there are FAR more uninsured and underinsured Americans cruising the streets than there are illegals.
-You know what other shitty program the government instituted during a major recession? Social security. I guess since we're not in that recession any more then that program worked and we should create more programs just like it right?
-I was born here. There is no where for me to be deported to.
-Way to completely miss the ball on the drug use/putting people in jail issue. How does putting a drug user in jail prevent OTHER PEOPLE from using drugs? It doesn't.
-It's a little bit harder for you to argue with sending illegal Chinese home, because they are white.
-I've looked at some of the links posted and I can't get around all the incomplete info in them. Everything is estimate, and every other sentence is "if this happened..." "If the total is..." if if if if if.
Of course illegals cost us money, of course its a problem. However, you guys are going to have to do a lot better than you are to convince me that it is anywhere near the cost of what we cost ourselves. A simple welfare reform would eliminate any chance of illegals directly receiving welfare benefits. Getting the insurance industry entirely out of the health care industry (well mostly out) would drop health care prices like a rock and would be much more effective than addressing the problem with illegal alien focused solutions. Tighter restrictions on hiring practices and greater punishments for hiring illegals would drastically reduce the amount of illegals being hired. So would repealing stupid laws like the minimum wage. All things that would be significantly more effective than pounding our chests and focusing on deporting people (who will just come right back over) will do.
For about the 200th time. I don't support any illegals. What I also don't support are insanely stupid ideas like "Operation Wetback" as viable solutions to solve our problems.
You guys get so riled up when I tell you that something you've said is a bad idea, that you can't even keep the point of the conversation in focus. You immediately assume that I am trying to protect illegals.
I'll type in bold to increase the chances of this being read and understood.
-Yes we have an immigration problem.
-Yes it costs us more money than if we didn't have the problem (like every other issue in the universe).
-Yes there are ways that we can help eliminate or curb this problem.
-No, ideas like "Operation Wetback" are not viable long term solutions. They are stupid knee-jerk reactions born from misplaced anger.
Spending resources on plans that are centered around deportation is guarantying failure and wasted money. If I have ants on my desk at work, rounding them up and taking them outside will only be a waste of my time if I don't also remove the pile of sugar under my keyboard. In the long run, the benefits of removing the sugar will far outweigh the benefits of taking the ants outside. Even if I never take the ants outside, they'll eventually go find something to eat some where else.
ANTS = ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
SUGAR = EASILY ACCESSIBLE HAND OUTS DUE TO POORLY WRITTEN LEGISLATION.
Do I need to include pictures next time we go through this?
It might be un-PC but I'm going to call it how I see it. Do you really want America to look like Mexico, economically, culturally, politically? Some people do. [Bang]
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. How could you have read this thread and missed that? This is exactly what I'm accusing many of our members of wanting. They don't even realize that is what they want.
-I've looked at some of the links posted and I can't get around all the incomplete info in them. Everything is estimate, and every other sentence is "if this happened..." "If the total is..." if if if if if.
Apparently, I can see the future. [ROFL1]
Where are your facts? What research have you linked supporting your opinion?
-Way to completely miss the ball on the drug use/putting people in jail issue. How does putting a drug user in jail prevent OTHER PEOPLE from using drugs? It doesn't.
Personal beliefs about the drug issue aside, how does putting a murderer in jail prevent other people from using drugs? How does putting a rapist in jail prevent other people from raping? ...because people don't want to go to jail. There's a lot of good arguments for decriminalizing drug use, that's not one of them.
-It's a little bit harder for you to argue with sending illegal Chinese home, because they are white.
Huh...
Tighter restrictions on hiring practices and greater punishments for hiring illegals would drastically reduce the amount of illegals being hired.
So I take it you support Arizona SB 1070 (Assuming you've read it)?
ANTS = ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
SUGAR = EASILY ACCESSIBLE HAND OUTS DUE TO POORLY WRITTEN LEGISLATION.
But I thought illegal immigration didn't cost taxpayers anything? [NoEvil]
-First of all, I'm not defending any illegals at all what so ever. I'm telling you that your ideas are dumb.
-IF all the illegals used resources, the amount would add up to X amount, but they don't and it doesn't. Excellent point. 15% costs (still estimated) of the total possible figure (estimated) sounds like a great reason to re-institute some obscure practice the government practiced for a few months 50 years ago. I guess since my kitchen sink leaks, I'll go ahead and re-plumb my entire house. (my sink doesn't leak by the way).
-I can't pretend that most illegals, personally purchase auto insurance for the vehicles that they drive. However, I also know better than to just assume that all, or even a majority of illegals are getting into auto accidents with any frequency. When was the last time you caused an auto accident? I suppose that I have to assume that people who were born here are automatically better drivers than someone who wasn't born here? I'm going to guess that my personal experience as a claims adjuster handling 1,000s of auto claims over a period of a few years showed me that approx 1 out of 200 claims dealt with an uninsured vehicle, and even less than that with people who were here illegally means anything to anyone, so I won't even bother mentioning that.
-MB888, your rates most likely went up due to the rate adjustments that companies do every single quarter. It's illegal to raise your rates for a not-at-fault accident in this state. My insurance has been going down every six months for the past few years so that I pay over $100 less a month than when I first bought a policy with the company that I'm with now. Who am I supposed to blame that on? Your own driving record and choice of vehicle has a much greater affect on what you pay a month than illegal immigrants could EVER have. Insurance fraud is the major cause of higher rates, not illegal immigrants. Not to mention that there are FAR more uninsured and underinsured Americans cruising the streets than there are illegals.
-You know what other shitty program the government instituted during a major recession? Social security. I guess since we're not in that recession any more then that program worked and we should create more programs just like it right?
-I was born here. There is no where for me to be deported to.
-Way to completely miss the ball on the drug use/putting people in jail issue. How does putting a drug user in jail prevent OTHER PEOPLE from using drugs? It doesn't.
-It's a little bit harder for you to argue with sending illegal Chinese home, because they are white.
-I've looked at some of the links posted and I can't get around all the incomplete info in them. Everything is estimate, and every other sentence is "if this happened..." "If the total is..." if if if if if.
Of course illegals cost us money, of course its a problem. However, you guys are going to have to do a lot better than you are to convince me that it is anywhere near the cost of what we cost ourselves. A simple welfare reform would eliminate any chance of illegals directly receiving welfare benefits. Getting the insurance industry entirely out of the health care industry (well mostly out) would drop health care prices like a rock and would be much more effective than addressing the problem with illegal alien focused solutions. Tighter restrictions on hiring practices and greater punishments for hiring illegals would drastically reduce the amount of illegals being hired. So would repealing stupid laws like the minimum wage. All things that would be significantly more effective than pounding our chests and focusing on deporting people (who will just come right back over) will do.
For about the 200th time. I don't support any illegals. What I also don't support are insanely stupid ideas like "Operation Wetback" as viable solutions to solve our problems.
You guys get so riled up when I tell you that something you've said is a bad idea, that you can't even keep the point of the conversation in focus. You immediately assume that I am trying to protect illegals.
I'll type in bold to increase the chances of this being read and understood.
-Yes we have an immigration problem.
-Yes it costs us more money than if we didn't have the problem (like every other issue in the universe).
-Yes there are ways that we can help eliminate or curb this problem.
-No, ideas like "Operation Wetback" are not viable long term solutions. They are stupid knee-jerk reactions born from misplaced anger.
Spending resources on plans that are centered around deportation is guarantying failure and wasted money. If I have ants on my desk at work, rounding them up and taking them outside will only be a waste of my time if I don't also remove the pile of sugar under my keyboard. In the long run, the benefits of removing the sugar will far outweigh the benefits of taking the ants outside. Even if I never take the ants outside, they'll eventually go find something to eat some where else.
ANTS = ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
SUGAR = EASILY ACCESSIBLE HAND OUTS DUE TO POORLY WRITTEN LEGISLATION.
Do I need to include pictures next time we go through this?
that is a ton of wasted bandwidth right there. you didn't respond to anything i said, you didn't respond to any of the links, the articles, the experts...you just randomly rant on.
now you are just arguing for the sake of an argument.
"operation wetback" or a similar deportation program was implemented by Hoover, Turman and Eisenhower. are you calling all of them knee jerk reaction presidents? did they have some misplaced anger trying to get troops jobs when they returned from war, or get jobs to the people who were starving in their own country?
This conversation is staying plenty on focus, your lack of response to quotes, links and FACTs seems to derail the thread more than anything.
you keep talking about "if if if" yet even in your own response you come up with an estimated number. the reason they are estimates is due to the nature of the beast...the illegals are UNDOCUMENTED which means they don't have solid numbers, just estimates, so obviously the data complied can't be exact.
"-IF all the illegals used resources, the amount would add up to X amount, but they don't and it doesn't. Excellent point. 15% costs (still estimated) of the total possible figure (estimated) sounds like a great reason to re-institute some obscure practice the government practiced for a few months 50 years ago. I guess since my kitchen sink leaks, I'll go ahead and re-plumb my entire house. (my sink doesn't leak by the way)."
call my ideas dumb all you want, but i see nobody else defending anything you are saying, I don't see you bringing up anything valid to counter anything I have said...other than my ideas are "dumb".
so since you were born here, you must feel an entitlement to stay...you have nowhere to be deported to, yet you harp on me for entitlement issues, get a clue.
great ant analogy, except you are missing the point. you LIVE off that sugar, if they eat it all and move on, you are FUCKED. get it yet?
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're behind in the debate here. Allow me to catch you up.
1) Don't ever say "There's a lot of good arguments for decriminalizing drug use, that's not one of them." to me again. That is my line. I use it all the time. The reason that didn't sound like a reason to decriminalize drugs, is because it wasn't. That's not what we are talking about. I was giving, what I thought was, a very simple analogy to point out the difference between punishing someone for something, and providing a solution to fixing the problem. I used drug use because it is similar to immigration in that punishing the people who are caught for using, does nothing to curb other people from using. I didn't want to use drugs, because I wanted to avoid this exact issue of someone losing focus of the issue and making incorrect assumptions about my personal feelings of drug use. If you very honestly think that the possibility of getting into trouble has ever stopped a significant number of people from using drugs, then I can tell you right now that you and I will never have a productive discussion about drugs. If you'd like to talk about drugs, start another thread, or use the search function and look for some of my other posts.
2) Yes, I fully support the bill in Arizona. I've stated that over and over on here, but no one seems to understand that. You get a pass because you just recently joined and have obviously only read posts of mine from as far back as May 1st.
3) I've never said that illegal immigration didn't cost tax payers money. I said that all of the solutions I've seen suggested thus far are stupid at best.
I used drug use because it is similar to immigration in that punishing the people who are caught for using, does nothing to curb other people from using.
Perhaps you can find research reflecting that claim. One of the purposes of punishing crimes is to deter other people from committing those crimes...Or perhaps you believe jail isn't enough of a deterrent? Should we go back to flogging?
If you'd like to talk about drugs, start another thread, or use the search function and look for some of my other posts.
You brought it into the discussion.
2) Yes, I fully support the bill in Arizona.
Great.
3) I've never said that illegal immigration didn't cost tax payers money. I said that all of the solutions I've seen suggested thus far are stupid at best.
You specifically said that 'illegals costing taxpayers money' was 'drivel'...
Let's see, next you reference more drivel of illegals costing American tax payers money. Again, wrongly assuming that just because you are here illegally, that you must be automatically be a leach. You fall talk about how illegals take advantage of social programs, yet aren't documented enough to pay any taxes.
Perhaps you can find research reflecting that claim. One of the purposes of punishing crimes is to deter other people from committing those crimes...Or perhaps you believe jail isn't enough of a deterrent? Should we go back to flogging?
You specifically said that 'illegals costing taxpayers money' was 'drivel'...
need a smiley that has one that has the other by the nuts....guess this is close enough [Kick2]
I guess we can't have this discussion anymore. I'm not trying to dispute any numbers from any studies. I'm trying to point out that stupid ideas like "Operation Wetback" don't hold the answers to your problems.
As to this:
"operation wetback" or a similar deportation program was implemented by Hoover, Turman and Eisenhower. are you calling all of them knee jerk reaction presidents?
Yes, I am saying that those were knee jerk reactions. Just like the recent bail outs.
I spent a few minutes doing some searches on the Great Depression, The New Deal, etc, and not once in hundreds of searches is "Operation Wetback" ever brought up. Must have been a very successful program. I've never even heard of it before until you started mentioning it every chance you got. There must be a reason for that.
I'm not sure why you have a problem understanding the whole entitlement issue. I don't feel entitled to anything. If I want something, I have to work for it.
I'm not sure how you argue that I survive off of welfare, health care, and taxes. Last time I checked, those are all hurdles to my financial security.
For what it's worth, I don't see anyone even addressing what I'm say, at all. Certainly not you. I guess no one gets it.
trlcavscout
05-02-2010, 22:11
"It is astonishing to me that you guys want to take the things that are great about America, throw them in the trash and turn our country into another North Korea or Mexico. People come here because it is a land of opportunity where it doesn't matter what color you are or how you got here, as long as you can take care of yourself, you'll be given the opportunity to prosper."
That is where a big part of the problem is, the people here that help them get them ridiculous home loans under fake names with payments they cant make. HOW DID THAT HELP OUR CURRENT SITUATION?
Some do make money working underground jobs like agriculture or Swift. And they are then allowed to get "assistance" so they dont starve to death. Both of these result in another problem - FAKE ID'S. Which results in what NO ACCOUNTABILITY for crimes, traffic accidents, health care costs etc. WHO PAYS FOR THESE PROBLEMS? Why are health carse costs so high, doctor visits, hospital etc. Because they are carrying so much bad debt they have to make money somewhere.
Others do not work at all, they mooch off programs and who knows what, they have people here (their are even businesses who specialize in this) who help them obtain fake documents so they qualify for these programs. So the programs who tax payers fund to help tax payers when they need help, are so over stretched they cant help half the tax payers when they need it. When I got laid off in 04 I tried to get "assistance", the company fought my unemployment and I was told their was no assistance available for me in Weld county?
Again I have no problem with legal immigration, my family registered at Ellis Island a long time ago then moved to Kansas and farmed for decades where they payed taxes and spoke only english.
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 22:14
-MB888, your rates most likely went up due to the rate adjustments that companies do every single quarter.
How about the $500 (LOST) deductible? My higher adjustment, eventhough it is illegal, it happened quite often, was due to the claim. I had perfect record and no accidents. My zipcode was not adjusted and there are no other factors as I have multiple vehicles for personal and business in the same address with same drivers, and only that particular vehicle received an adjustment.
I was also an underwriter for a fresh coverage write up in the late 90s. In short, I got cheated by the illegal and the insurance company. [Bang]
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 22:19
That is where a big part of the problem is, the people here that help them get them ridiculous home loans under fake names with payments they cant make. HOW DID THAT HELP OUR CURRENT SITUATION?
Loans cannot be issued on ghost ID. Like most foreign investors, any foreigner may purchase properties/stocks/investment in US. If must, with their own loans (Hint. Banco de Mexico will loan out upto 80% at one point) or through Hard money lenders (private lenders like you and I who lend $ based on asset). I just want to clarify the rumors that anyone with fake names or fake social security can simply purchase and obtain bank/govt loans. That simply is not true.
In most cases, they use one legal person's identification to purchase multiple houses for everyone else for certain fee. Straw buyer per se. I dont mean to negate the thread.
I'll only address the drug comment once more since it is off topic. If jail time for drug use was any kind of deterrent, then 55% of the Federal prison population wouldn't be in prison for drug use. http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/409/toohigh.shtml
Using studies showing that illegals cost tax payer money as evidence of why we should deport them IS drivel. Using that same logic we should also work on deporting:
-Every health care recipient
-Every Medicare and Medicade recipient
-Everyone who uses automobiles on public road ways
-Children who are in school
-Drunk drivers
-All incarcerated people
-The Federal government
-NASA
-High Fructose Corn Syrup
-Nicotine
Anything else?
-
ChunkyMonkey
05-02-2010, 22:25
Extremely poor example there. Illegals by their own term is illegal and have no rights to the rest of taxpayers or US citizen/resident.
I am outta here, this one is not worth reading anymore.
Okay I'll give you that one, considering that people who drive to work actually pay into the system, supposedly.
I'll only address the drug comment once more since it is off topic. If jail time for drug use was any kind of deterrent, then 55% of the Federal prison population wouldn't be in prison for drug use. http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/409/toohigh.shtml
Using studies showing that illegals cost tax payer money as evidence of why we should deport them IS drivel. Using that same logic we should also work on deporting:
-Every health care recipient
-Every Medicare and Medicade recipient
-Everyone who uses automobiles on public road ways
-Children who are in school
-Drunk drivers
-All incarcerated people
-The Federal government
-NASA
-High Fructose Corn Syrup
-Nicotine
Anything else?
-
except those programs were designed for taxpayers, to be supported by taxpayers. they were designed for citizens and legal immigrants.
illegal is illegal, what is soo hard to get about that?
and yes there is abuse of the system and we ALL know it won't all get fixed, but illegals shouldn't even have a crack at it to begin with.
another poor example...
Extremely poor example there. Illegals by their own term is illegal and have no rights to the rest of taxpayers or US citizen/resident.
I am outta here, this one is not worth reading anymore.
pretty much everything he is writing lately isn't worth reading anymore.
i'm off to bed
Using studies showing that illegals cost tax payer money as evidence of why we should deport them IS drivel.
That's not what you said. First, illegals didn't cost taxpayers money, then the scholarly estimates about what illegals cost taxpayers were useless because they were estimates, now your argument is evolving again.
So basically, we shouldn't bother deporting illegals, because its a-okay that taxpaying citizens have to shell out their hard earned cash to support them? And illegal immigrants contribute as much to our nation as NASA? Interesting argument. Its merits are so "dumb" (as you would say) as to make it undebatable.
I've said my peace, I'm done.
trlcavscout
05-02-2010, 22:43
I'll only address the drug comment once more since it is off topic. If jail time for drug use was any kind of deterrent, then 55% of the Federal prison population wouldn't be in prison for drug use. http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/409/toohigh.shtml
Using studies showing that illegals cost tax payer money as evidence of why we should deport them IS drivel. Using that same logic we should also work on deporting:
-Every health care recipient- I pay a ridiculous amount for health care it would be cheaper to pay as you go. But I pay it so why deport me?
-Every Medicare and Medicade recipient- Most paid taxes when they worked, my Grandmother worked from age 12 to age 64 just to receive that crap.
-Everyone who uses automobiles on public road ways- we pay road taxes when we register every year. Truck drivers pay more though and still we drive on crappy potholed rough uneven roads.
-Children who are in school- Who will pay taxes when they grow up, and will pay for our medicare and SS because our great GOVT cant budget money.
-Drunk drivers- They need harsher punishments I agree, but they pay a kings ransom for getting caught. It needs to end.
-All incarcerated people- They pay restitution commonly and if sent to a half way house have to pay to be there. As well as working while locked up. I wish we could deport some of them
-The Federal government- Can we deport them?
-NASA- Yes we pay for it, but it is necesary?
-High Fructose Corn Syrup- Where would we deport it to?
-Nicotine- Should be illegal, but the govt makes to much $ off the taxes, that again we pay to kill our selves.
Anything else?- Again CAN we deport the GOVT?
-
Its not just the tax paying issues, and I agree not all crime is caused by "illegal immigrants" but it is a high number. Problem is most of the time they get deported instead of locked up to save TAX DOLLARS.
trlcavscout
05-02-2010, 22:48
Loans cannot be issued on ghost ID. Like most foreign investors, any foreigner may purchase properties/stocks/investment in US. If must, with their own loans (Hint. Banco de Mexico will loan out upto 80% at one point) or through Hard money lenders (private lenders like you and I who lend $ based on asset). I just want to clarify the rumors that anyone with fake names or fake social security can simply purchase and obtain bank/govt loans. That simply is not true.
In most cases, they use one legal person's identification to purchase multiple houses for everyone else for certain fee. Straw buyer per se. I dont mean to negate the thread.
It was done alot over the last five years. It wasnt "ghost ID's" it was complete fraud basically. Look at a few of the banks that got shut down by the feds, they have an entire "task force" investigating it. There were local and national lenders involved. So no it wasnt there fake ID's getting them the loans, it was greedy people forging papers. You are right.
Good night guys. :)
Good discussion today. I probably won't be on the computer much tomorrow. See you around.
Mass deportation??? Im all for booting them and locking down the border. All the fighting down there it needs to happen anyways.
Jumpstart
05-03-2010, 15:42
I’m planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.
We’re planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. Into Mexico, and we’ll need your help to make a few arrangements.
We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.
I’m sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I’m on my way over?
Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.
4. I want my grandkids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.
5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my grandkids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.
7. Please plan to feed my grandkids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver’s license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but, I don’t plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won’t make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. Flag from my house top, put U S. Flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.
13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.
14. I want to receive free food stamps.
15. Naturally, I’ll expect free rent subsidies.
16. I’ll need Income tax credits so although I don’t pay Mexican Taxes, I’ll receive money from the government.
17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Gov’t pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.
18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I’ll get a monthly income in retirement.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U..S. From Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won’t mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.
Thank you so much for your kind help. You da man!!!
3 things that need to happen here:
1) Get the idiots in charge to not only untie the hands of ICE so they can do their jobs but also increase the funding. (Mass deportation – Operation Wetback – Round ‘em up and ship ‘em out)
2) Close the border once and for all.
3) Enforce the penalties for hiring illegals. This could easily be done if #1 would be done and raids were allowed again.
The reason for doing away with anchor babies is.
Soon to be parents come across the US border to have their kids because of the anchor baby status. The bleeding hearts can’t stand the thought of splitting up a family, and the kid is a US citizen, so naturally the parents can’t be deported. –BS ship them all back. When the child turns 18 maybe they have the time limited right to apply for citizenship to the US legally, and jump to the head of the line. But the fact is these anchor baby parents come here to have their kid so they can collect all the freebies (their kids are citizens after all). Maybe that is why I have seen so many illegal families with 5,6 even 8 kids (yes I know for a fact they were illegal – they freely admitted it). Just sucking on those freebies. Don’t even attempt to tell me that doesn’t happen a regular and frequent basis. I lived in Phoenix and saw it first hand day in and day out.
For those people that say another “Operation Wetback” is just a knee jerk reaction, answer these questions:
- How about identity theft? Ever hear of that? Don't you believe that is criminal activity, not to mention very expensive.
Put the issue of the costs of illegals aside for a second (though I completely agree they are costly), also put aside the added crime rate (again, I agree completely).
- How many terrorist sleeper cells exist in the USA today? Don’t know? Nobody does. Why not? Because we have no idea who is in this country!! That is one more reason I favor mass deportation. As soon as someone is found to be in this country illegally, kick them out. Until all illegals are deported and the border is sealed, we will never know who is here.
ChunkyMonkey
05-03-2010, 18:07
@Nix easier said and done.
1. ICE is not functional, dumping money into it makes no sense. Have you ever gone through their system - Holy shiet! Talking about maze of bureaucracy.
2. BEST BET SO FAR!!! where is the FED in this?!
3. Businesses have liability insurances which cover their legal fees. Most claimed the illegals provided them legal ID and paper per Fed law, and they play dumb. ICE hardly ever go after employers because of the cost to prosecute them.
@Nix easier said and done.
1. ICE is not functional, dumping money into it makes no sense. Have you ever gone through their system - Holy shiet! Talking about maze of bureaucracy.
2. BEST BET SO FAR!!! where is the FED in this?!
3. Businesses have liability insurances which cover their legal fees. Most claimed the illegals provided them legal ID and paper per Fed law, and they play dumb. ICE hardly ever go after employers because of the cost to prosecute them.
1- That's what I was saying by untie their hands. Do away with the BS, paper pushing bureaucracy.
3 - True for the most part, but I have seen employers hire people who give SS#s like 89390878653. Obviously fake.
-Yes I turned them in, Employee and employer. The business shut down about 2 weeks later after a raid by Sheriff Joe.
Jumpstart
05-03-2010, 18:31
-Yes I turned them in, Employee and employer. The business shut down about 2 weeks later after a raid by Sheriff Joe.
Thank you!
ChunkyMonkey
05-03-2010, 18:31
@Nix,
Understood. In my opinion to solve these issues, we can start with...
1. BACKGROUND CHECK/PATRIOT ACT CHECK + DRUG TEST on all welfare recipients (From Federal level down to the 'non profit' organization if they want tax write off and keep their non profit status).
2. AZ style LEO empowerment
3. Last and least likely, run BG & Patriot act check on ALL new employees.
I run BG checks for private banks all the time due to the increasing frauds etc.. why not run it on all of them. 2 minutes turn around through our system! 24 hours turn around time on SSN check if their bday doesnt match their SSN issued date. We'll weed out the dumbasses from receiving tax payer fund with the drug test too!
I was with you guys right up until you started talking about Patriot Act.
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