Homeowner Shoots Burglar

[ThunderSquirrel]

Guess this happened this morning...

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=139565&catid=339

Details are still kind of sparse, at least in this article.

[TS12000]

Good riddance, too bad the DA will probably charge this guy with something

[CrufflerSteve]

Good riddance, too bad the DA will probably charge this guy with something

Probably true. DA's hate the make my day law and always chip away at it. They have prosecuted someone for breaking in to a house but he was still in a doorway. They did another persecution when the perp fell outside after being shot inside.

Steve

[DD977GM2]

Sounds like it was a good shoot [Beer]

One less scumbag POS to cause innocent people distress.

[Sixgun]

It's a shame there is not 2 more dead.
If this guy gets charged, I say we all go downtown to protest. [Rant2]

[ThunderSquirrel]

It's a shame there is not 2 more dead.
If this guy gets charged, I say we all go downtown to protest. [Rant2]

I'd gladly go.

[iamhunter]

maybe these burglars will start thinking twice before invading homes.

[palepainter]

Na.... Crack heads do not think.

[CareyH]

Good, I wish more of these POS's would get killed.

[rondog]

I'll shed no tears for the dead maggot, but I hope the homeowner comes out OK. Lots of details missing, but the fact the cops heard the gunshots may be a big factor. If there were one or two shots, not such a bad thing. But if there was a large flurry of wild blasting at the BG's, that might be bad ju-ju for the HO. And if the BG never made it into the house......

[CHA-LEE]

That's why you drag them back in the house after you shoot them...... [ROFL2]

[CrufflerSteve]

That's why you drag them back in the house after you shoot them.....

And if the police found the drag marks his family would be visiting him in Canon City for the rest of his life. I doubt that any police force is as sharp as those guys on the CSI shows but they can see the obvious.

If this was a righteous home owner protecting his family I hope he comes out okay. I also hope he knew enough not to say anything until he had a lawyer.

Steve

[BigBear]

And if the police found the drag marks his family would be visiting him in Canon City for the rest of his life. ...

Rgr, that's why you put some of the wife's jewelry in the BG's pocket if he's laying out on the lawn....




I kid, I kid!! [Beer]

[theGinsue]

Good riddance, too bad the DA will probably charge this guy with something


Probably true. DA's hate the make my day law and always chip away at it. They have prosecuted someone for breaking in to a house but he was still in a doorway. They did another persecution when the perp fell outside after being shot inside.

Steve


The article even states that the body was found "in front" of the home. This doesn't bode well for the homeowner.

We had a case about a year and a half ago here in Colo Spr where a young kid (25ish) was so drunk that he didn't realize that the home he was trying to enter was NOT his home (he lived 1 block over).

The was banging on the doors and windows and finally broke out a window and started to climb through. The elderly homeowner and his wife were on the phone with 911. They were heard telling the intruder from the start to leave - he didn't. He was part way through the window when the husband shot him. He died. The DA debated for a while on whether or not to charge the husband since MOST of the kids body was outside the home when he was shot.

Of course, all you heard on the news was how this kid was a golf pro at a local (city owned) golf course and how he was a fine & upstanding young man.

Three things caused the DA to decide AGAINST charging this family:
(1) The part of the kids body that the bullet entered was IN the home.
(2) The homeowners were elderly
(3) - This carried the most weight - The 911 recording of the shooting clearly showed that the homeowners were terrified and had tried to get the intruder to leave.

The DA knew that there was NO way he could win in a jury trial so he declared it "justifiable" under the "Make My Day" law.

[theGinsue]

maybe these burglars will start thinking twice before invading homes.

Not so long as there are so many liberals making rules in this state. until we turn things around, these dirtbags will always feel a certain level of safety from harm.

[Westy]

And if the BG never made it into the house......

Drag his dumb ass in the front door

[Coffee]

[BushMasterBoy]

You have to remember most District Attorneys want a conviction for their political agenda. They have very little concern for justice. If this happens to you, your best bet is not to speak to the police until you have an attorney to represent you. See the video below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

[TS12000]

You have to remember most District Attorneys want a conviction for their political agenda. They have very little concern for justice. If this happens to you, your best bet is not to speak to the police until you have an attorney to represent you. See the video below..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

+1, anything you say, no matter how innocent it seems, can be used to cripple your defense in court.

[TS12000]

Just an update, did anyone see his family/friends on the news? "He wasn't doing anything wrong, he didn't deserve to be murdered"

Jesus Christ he was breaking into houses at three in the morning, maybe you should keep a fucking eye on your kids so they won't put themselves into that kind of situation to begin with.

[Irving]

What does it matter where the body was found? Guy opens your door, you shoot him, he runs back out the door, dies in the street.

[theGinsue]

Just an update, did anyone see his family/friends on the news? "He wasn't doing anything wrong, he didn't deserve to be murdered"

Jesus Christ he was breaking into houses at three in the morning, maybe you should keep a fucking eye on your kids so they won't put themselves into that kind of situation to begin with.

It wasn't his fault. He's just a poor helpless victim of society and greedy corporations.


What does it matter where the body was found? Guy opens your door, you shoot him, he runs back out the door, dies in the street.

Where the body was found isn't exactly so important - where the body was when it was shot IS important (per Make My Day requirements...IN the home=good. Outside of the home=bad).

[Irving]

I like when the family goes on television and asks for "some justice" after their criminal relative was killed while breaking the law. They just see other people say similar things on television and think that is what they should say. Hate to break it to you lady, but justice already was served. Being on television isn't the same as rubbing a genie lamp.

I once read a bunch of comments after an article about a car thief getting killed where some lady was saying that it was probably just some poor kid that was cold and looking for a warm place to spend the night. Can't even believe when people delude themselves like that.

[cebeu]

If you fellas ever want to read some very real insanity from nut-cases rationalizing & defending criminals, their behavior, etc. check-out www.prisontalk.com/forums/ (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/) and specifically the following sub-forums;
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180) <- Loving a Violent Offender
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=242 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=242) <- Long-term...
And more...

First, not recommending this because it is a complete time-waster, you get 'caught-up' in sheer amazement at half the shit you're reading;

Second, not recommending this because you will just get irritated by a lot of the shit you're reading;

Third, not recommending it because most of the shit you're reading just doesn't matter to ya' personally.

But...but...people like this being discussed in this thread now, those jumpin' on the news and talking about their "sweet innocents"...man...this crap will make you step-back and truly realize how blind or stupid, or both some people (mostly females in this case) really are.

Note: I want to be very clear that I am not condemning the site or associated services in anyway. There is value there, especially for those that truly need the information/outlet but...wow..."talk about a heavy swing to the left side of the intellectual, emotional and psychological bell-curve."

[roberth]

Just an update, did anyone see his family/friends on the news? "He wasn't doing anything wrong, he didn't deserve to be murdered"

Jesus Christ he was breaking into houses at three in the morning, maybe you should keep a fucking eye on your kids so they won't put themselves into that kind of situation to begin with.

You know what, FUCK him, his mother and his friends. [M2]

[Anton]

Once more scumbag that won't be victimizing people anymore...

[SU405]

Good riddance!

If you dislike having leaks and being aerated don't F$@# with good guys and guns who are prepared to protect their home.

F&#% Momma and the rest of his family and friends. Raise your damn kids with some morals


It's just a damn shame he didn't get the others.

[TS12000]

If you fellas ever want to read some very real insanity from nut-cases rationalizing & defending criminals, their behavior, etc. check-out www.prisontalk.com/forums/ (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/) and specifically the following sub-forums;
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180) <- Loving a Violent Offender
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=242 (http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=242) <- Long-term...
And more...

First, not recommending this because it is a complete time-waster, you get 'caught-up' in sheer amazement at half the shit you're reading;

Second, not recommending this because you will just get irritated by a lot of the shit you're reading;

Third, not recommending it because most of the shit you're reading just doesn't matter to ya' personally.

But...but...people like this being discussed in this thread now, those jumpin' on the news and talking about their "sweet innocents"...man...this crap will make you step-back and truly realize how blind or stupid, or both some people (mostly females in this case) really are.

Note: I want to be very clear that I am not condemning the site or associated services in anyway. There is value there, especially for those that truly need the information/outlet but...wow..."talk about a heavy swing to the left side of the intellectual, emotional and psychological bell-curve."

One of the ones at the top (couldn't even get through many of the titles) http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458261 [ROFL2]

And you know some of these morons vote [Help]

[Colorado Luckydog]

I'll probably catch shit for saying this but....It's kind of sad he was a just a kid. He probably had fucksticks for parents that didn't give a shit about him when he was alive, now their looking for attention.

That being said, I would have done the same thing and smoked him like a big free bag of weed. It's a sad world we live in but we live in it and protecting our own and ourselves has to be first on our priority list. It almost makes me want to do some kind of charity work for kids but I barely have enough time for my own.

[Irving]

I think that was a great statement Colorado Luckydog. It makes me sad that you can't yell at the neighbor kids for doing stupid shit without people wanting to sue you anymore.

[Sixgun]

Do we know if he was shot in or out of the house yet?

[Colorado Luckydog]

Do we know if he was shot in or out of the house yet?

He was in the house. The homeowner should be fine.

[Troublco]

Good riddance!

If you dislike having leaks and being aerated don't F$@# with good guys and guns who are prepared to protect their home.

F&#% Momma and the rest of his family and friends. Raise your damn kids with some morals


It's just a damn shame he didn't get the others.

Damn straight!


He was in the house. The homeowner should be fine.

Good. More of these punks need to understand that they're liable to get ventilated if they do this crap.

[BadShot]

He was in the house. The homeowner should be fine.

Well at least it's a justified shoot (as long as it wasn't in the back or back of the head in this case)... as for the home owner being fine. That I doubt for a long while. While he maybe legally safe, the hard part starts now. Taking a life is a shitty experience any way it happens, it's worse by your own hand. Add to that, yeah, he was committing a crime, but he was a kid. That's going to weigh on anyone with any sort of morality or soul.

Not saying in any way shape or form that the kid didn't get what was coming, 17 years old.. yeah you damn well know right from wrong, the "parents" and their supporters need to shut the hell up. Amazing (sarcasm) that we haven't seen the media air comments from people like us that support the home owner and wish the damn family would just go mourn their dead.. quietly

[TS12000]

Well said BadShot, the only sadness I feel regarding this case is for the shooter. This poor guy will have to live with this for the rest of his life, but you have to do what you have to do. In a situation where it's the middle of the night and someone is in your home you don't really have the time or capacity to consider the intruders age, if he was a "good kid", or how the situation will affect you in the long run.

[HBARleatherneck]

I have a hard time, with the fact that the police are allowing the gathering in front of the victims house.

i know civil rights and all that but......

if this was a woman being raped and she finally was able to fend him off and kill him, would the cops allow his family to congregate outside of her home?

this guy will have to move. or wait every night and day wondering if the friends and family will try something..

[BadShot]

Maybe we should go counter protest?

[TS12000]

That's what I wondered the first time I saw the little candlelight vigil thing. If you saw the response the first time your family member was on this guy's property would you really want to push this guy by setting up all this shit in front of his house?

Also, I love how when the snow comes the sidewalk is your property and responsibility but if someone gets shot it's public property and his family members can set up a memorial in front of your house.

[theGinsue]

Just an update, did anyone see his family/friends on the news? "He wasn't doing anything wrong, he didn't deserve to be murdered"

It's precisely because he was raised in an environment that holds beliefs that B&E into a strangers home @ 0300 for the purpose of robbery is "[not] doing anything wrong" that he got his butt killed.

Momma should get charged with child abuse, aka "emotional abuse resulting in death" for her culpability.

[BigBear]

It's precisely because he was raised in an environment that holds beliefs that B&E into a strangers home @ 0300 for the purpose of robbery is "[not] doing anything wrong" that he got his butt killed.

Momma should get charged with child abuse, aka "emotional abuse resulting in death" for her culpability.


My thoughts my land me in trouble or be construed as a little barbaric, but so be it:

From a pyschological viewpoint, I think that if we punished the parents in front of the children, a lot of behavioral problems could be stymied. Also, it would literally FORCE parents to take responsibility of their children....

For instance, Johnny murders someone. Line Johnny up next to momma and put a bullet through her head telling Johnny it was his fault as his actions resulted in the termination of his mother...

Course there are TONS of problems with that I realize and I know it is not a healthy thought. Okay, flame suit on. [Bang]

[cebeu]

"If you saw the response the first time your family member was on this guy's property would you really want to push this guy by setting up all this shit in front of his house?

Heh heh - An interesting thought actually...


"...[the] family members can set up a memorial in front of your house.

Ya' mean one of those little "ghetto memorials?" Stuffed animals, wilting flowers, beads, some holy water, a Colt 40 and some deeply meanigful graffiti as a finishing touch to affirm the loss of a great one?

I have it expressly in my will..."no ghetto memorials for me!"

[Marlin]

Course there are TONS of problems with that I realize and I know it is not a healthy thought. Okay, flame suit on.


The only problem, Johnny wouldn't care.. So it would be pointless.

[rondog]

I'll probably catch shit for saying this but....It's kind of sad he was a just a kid. He probably had fucksticks for parents that didn't give a shit about him when he was alive, now their looking for a PAYOUT.
Fixed that for ya.

[ChunkyMonkey]

Quick question... how's being in the house any difference from being in the property?

[BigBear]

The only problem, Johnny wouldn't care.. So it would be pointless.


True, hence the "I realize there are tons of problems with this..." excuse.

[BigBear]

Quick question... how's being in the house any difference from being in the property?


It's an old arguement using the basis of a justified kill is only a good shoot if its the last possible thing you can do to extridite yourself from danger.

I.E. Johnny encounters a threat on his lawn. Johnny can run into the house for protection. Hence, the use of deadly force on the lawn is a no-go.

Stupid arguement but there are lots of cases for it on the books.

[theGinsue]

I think that was a great statement Colorado Luckydog. It makes me sad that you can't yell at the neighbor kids for doing stupid shit without people wanting to sue you anymore.


Agreed. (mock me for this statement if you will...) When I was a kid, we had every neighbor screaming at us and keeping us in line. Plus, I'd barely get done doing something wrong when I'd hear my folks yelling at me to get home - a neighbor had called them and told them what I was up to. -- Can't do that anymore.

It must have done some good. I haven't gotten my butt smoked - by either a homeowner with a firearm, or Bubba down @ the SuperMax in Florence.

[SU405]

Agreed. (mock me for this statement if you will...) When I was a kid, we had every neighbor screaming at us and keeping us in line. Plus, I'd barely get done doing something wrong when I'd hear my folks yelling at me to get home - a neighbor had called them and told them what I was up to. -- Can't do that anymore.

If must have done some good. I haven't gotten my butt smoked - by either a homeowner with a firearm, or Bubba down @ the SuperMax in Florence.


HAHAHA!
Reminds me of what my Father told me. He said if he did something wrong by the time he got home his ass was already welted and sore from all the neighbors. His dad would ask if he learned his lesson if not he could add to the welts.

[theGinsue]

Also, I love how when the snow comes the sidewalk is your property and responsibility but if someone gets shot it's public property and his family members can set up a memorial in front of your house.

OMG! DO NOT get me started on this one. This has been a MAJOR burr in my saddle for years. The homeowner is responsible for maintenance of the sidewalk (snow/ice removal, keep weeds/grass from growing up in it, etc.). Even if the homeowner does these things, if a person injures themselves on it (perhaps for tripping on an elevated edge due to ice upheaval), the homeowner can be held liable.

Now, when the homeowner doesn't like what's happening on that same stretch of sidewalk they are told that it's none of their business as it's public property. I've always disagreed with how they can do this. I'm throwing the BS FLAG!

[TS12000]

Agreed. (mock me for this statement if you will...) When I was a kid, we had every neighbor screaming at us and keeping us in line. Plus, I'd barely get done doing something wrong when I'd hear my folks yelling at me to get home - a neighbor had called them and told them what I was up to. -- Can't do that anymore.

It must have done some good. I haven't gotten my butt smoked - by either a homeowner with a firearm, or Bubba down @ the SuperMax in Florence.

Anyone else remember the terror in your heart when you heard your full name being screamed from a few blocks away?

[BigBear]

Lol, yes. What was worse was when I did something wrong and it was Grandpa who would say, "Son, let's go over here and have a talk."

Lord Rest his soul.

[TFOGGER]

Quick question... how's being in the house any difference from being in the property?

Actually, you have a right to self defense under Colorado law (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/2d843/2d86a/2df9a/2dfee?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0), whether you are in your house or not. What is commonly referred to as the "Make My Day (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/2d843/2d86a/2df9a/2e04c?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0)" law does is change the rules of engagement within a private dwelling, so to speak, and if the homeowner is found to be justified under it in using lethal force, he or she is also shielded from civil penalties (wrongful death suits, etc.).

Also, in the unfortunate case that you are involved in a situation like this, it is best to make NO statements to the police without a lawyer present, as anything you say, no matter how innocent, may be used as evidence against you, but anything you say that may be exculpatory is considered "hearsay" and therefore inadmissible.

Never talk to the police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc)

A long video, but has excellent information from both the defense and investigative side of the issue

[shane]

Anyone else catch the article on denverpost.com about the neighbors reaction to the situation. They actually had some progun statements from neighbors, but the article seems a bit biased to me since they released the guys name when the police have chose not to. One of my favorite quotes from the article


"You have got a right to do that," he said, "but you can give a warning shot, or shoot him in the leg."

If anyone wants check it out the link is http://m.denverpost.com/denverpost/db_21688/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=leGpXFAH&detailindex=2&pn=0&ps=5&full=true#display

[ronaldrwl]

I asked my CCW instructor about warning shots. He said not to. Seems like I'm the one to ask the dumb questions. But everyone seems to think it's a bad idea. Shoot to kill or don't shoot at all I guess.

My grandfather was a COP in LA a long time ago. I remember him telling a store about shooting a bad guy in the leg. They tried not to kill in those days.

[TS12000]

I would think they suggest against them because it's like missing your target, the round could end up in your neighbor or something to that effect

[Irving]

You don't fire a warning shot because using a gun is a last resort option only. Warning shots and non-lethal rounds are not last resort options.

[BadShot]

While I've been fortunate enough to never have to pull my CCW ever or even felt the actual need to clear my home late at night, I haven't been trained to wound (thank you Uncle Sam and many other, much better instructors). I'm not saying that I would in all cases use the weapon, but in a situation similar to what this home owner found himself in, well.. lets say I can't fault the guy for his solution to halting the threat.

Another worry I have for this guy is what is this going to cost him out of pocket? Lawyer costs, time out of work and having to sell his home. Not to mention the stress associated with worrying what this clowns family or buddies might try? Add to that the over whelming stress of dealing with the situation and having had to take a life.

That last part is where I feel for the guy who had to defend his life the most. For those of us who have had to take lives, I don't really give five craps how tough or rough you think you are, that shit haunts you. It haunts you for a very, very long time.

I'm also wondering if this guy has a legal defense fund set up anywhere. Kinda wondering how we might track down his legal representation (mostly because I wouldn't want to intrude on him) to find out. I know I'd be willing to pitch in to help him defray at least a little bit of the legal costs.

[TFOGGER]

You don't fire a warning shot because using a gun is a last resort option only. Warning shots and non-lethal rounds are not last resort options.

Exactly. A warning shot indicates to a potential jury that you had time to take other, less lethal actions. The law does not require you to retreat, but the law often has little in common with a jury in a civil trial if you happen to get sued.

[theGinsue]

Anyone else remember the terror in your heart when you heard your full name being screamed from a few blocks away?

My parents used a coaches style whistle and blew a very distinctive double blast. We could hear that whistle quite a ways away. If, for whatever reason (including not hearing the whistle), we didn't get our butts home right away when the whistle blew, we'd get grounded.

[SonOfTheGriz]

First and foremost, I am NOT a lawyer, have never played one on TV and only briefly dabbled in Mock Trial competitions in high school. [LOL]


Quick question... how's being in the house any difference from being in the property?

The keys to the use of deadly force within the home -- Make My Day / Castle Doctrine -- hinge on very specific criteria. The first, in my mind, being use of the term "dwelling" instead of "real property." Some argue the porch is integral to the dwelling and thus a part of the home. That said, outside of the recent Colorado Springs shooting (the intruder had at least put part of his body inside the victim's home), I'm not familiar with any other case law where shooting someone on the porch has afforded an affirmative defense under 18-1-704.5. Thankfully, 18-1-704.2b provides a reasonable defense for the use of deadly force if one reasonably suspects:

The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204

So... in this case, it would appear the homeowner may have been justified on the surface facts we have available to us. If the kid was in the house, 18-1-704.5 should provide defense against prosecution. If he was outside the home trying to break in AND threatening the homeowner, it appears Colorado's deadly force statues cover that, too, in favor of the victim.

In my CCW training classes, the focus with 18-1-704.5 was on the "AND" statements. Similar to the MOI / AOJ (if you follow Ayoob's lexicon) triangle used in determining if deadly force is warranted, we have to meet ALL statutory criteria under our "Castle Doctrine" law in order for it apply.

Does anyone else wish we would ditch the stupid "Make My Day" reference? Last time I checked, I am not a disaffected San Francisco police detective with a fetish for the .44. For some reason, the media can't seem to get over the Dirty Harry references... [Roll1]

Either way, score one for the law-abiding home owner and one for pulling another d-bag punk kid out of the gene pool. While it's sad to see a kid settle toward room temperature and tragic for his parents, I hope the homeowner who was forced into a deadly force situation copes with his actions and recovers alright. That the city would allow the kid's family to set up a vigil on the stoop of the home he robbed is outrageous. Given how hot it's been lately, maybe he should take to watering his lawn at night?

[theGinsue]

Actually, you have a right to self defense under Colorado law (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/2d843/2d86a/2df9a/2dfee?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0), whether you are in your house or not. What is commonly referred to as the "Make My Day (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/2d843/2d86a/2df9a/2e04c?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0)" law does is change the rules of engagement within a private dwelling, so to speak, and if the homeowner is found to be justified under it in using lethal force, he or she is also shielded from civil penalties (wrongful death suits, etc.).

Ehhhhh.... I think you've got it MOSTLY right, but you're using some serious generalizations there.

While I admit I'm using some generalizations here as well, this should serve to clarify just a bit.

The Castle Doctorine, aka Make My Day Law, allows homeowners [for the purpose of this law, "homeowner" also applies to renters or anyone in the dwelling] the right to use lethal force to defend themselves IN THEIR HOME. If someone enters your home (whether you live in a mansion, house, condo, or apartment), and you "fear for your life", you can shoot the intruder. You are free to use lethal force as it is assumed that anyone entering your domain does so with full knowledge of their actions and a homeowner may not have the time nor ability to determine the level of threat to themselves or others. There is no legal concern whether the individual is armed, if the homeowner has the ability to escape from the dwelling, or if the intruder actually intends harm to the occupants of the dwelling. What matters is that a dwelling implies a sense of personal safety and an intruder has violated that sense of safety.

Now, OUTSIDE of a "home", the rules are different. You can only use lethal force IF it is called for. To shoot someone just because they shoved you and you felt threatened is NOT sufficient. While you ARE authorized to defend yourself, you are only allowed to use the level of force sufficient to end that threat - and NOTHING MORE! Even then, there are stipulations as to WHO initiated and who escalated the conflict and there is the concern as to whether you could have escaped the situation without the use of force.

For instance, if you attempt to stop someone from breaking into your car which is sitting in the driveway, you can confront the person face-to-face without violence. If/when they threaten you with force, you can then use an equal level of force (or JUST enough to counter the threat) to defend yourself.

[Irving]

I'd just spray the vigil off the walk with my hose every day. Or park my car on it.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Ginsue
The Castle Doctorine, aka Make My Day Law, allows homeowners [for the purpose of this law, "homeowner" also applies to renters or anyone in the dwelling] the right to use lethal force to defend themselves IN THEIR HOME. If someone enters your home (whether you live in a mansion, house, condo, or apartment), and you "fear for your life", you can shoot the intruder.

In effect that is right, but I thought the actual law said that anyone breaking into your house and doing another illegal act could be shot? Not specifically 'fear for your life'. Kind of a fine distinction, but it is my understanding that they do not have to be armed, threatening you or anything like that. My understanding was that pretty much B&E is enough to trigger the castle doctrine. I do wonder what the legality is for someone who comes thru an unlocked door and is just standing there- are they guilty of anything- obviously tresprassing of you tell them to leave and they don't. I just wanted to clarify that I didn't think you had to be in fear for your life legally for the defense. Obviously, we'd all rather someone not shoot someone in our house.

-Oh, real reason I went thru the post- I've seen some people comment in the newspapers repsonse sections that he was shot in the back of the head. Has anyone else heard this? Seems pretty important. I still don't get the state of the door, and I heard one of the kids may have gotten inside- is that true?

[theGinsue]

I actually believe that you are correct, but...

if the homeowner (who has just shot and especially if they Killed the intruder) claims from the start that "I was afraid for my life", it can go a LONG way to protecting a homeowner. It can answer many questions before they even get asked.

[clublights]

I do wonder what the legality is for someone who comes thru an unlocked door and is just standing there- are they guilty of anything- obviously tresprassing of you tell them to leave and they don't.

to the best of my knowlegde............

you don't have to kick down the door.... or bust the lock or anything else for it to be Breaking & Entering .......

you just have to go in the door.

At least that is how the cops will charge you if you open the door on someones house at 3am.\\\

this is from Wikipedia

"Breaking can be either actual, such as by forcing open a door, or constructive, such as by fraud or threats.[4] Breaking does not require that anything be "broken" in terms of physical damage occurring. A person who has permission to enter part of a house, but not another part, commits a breaking and entering when they use any means to enter a room where they are not permitted, so long as the room was not open to enter."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary


So by this " idea" opening the door is the breaking........ walking thru it is entering.

[SonOfTheGriz]

I actually believe that you are correct, but...

if the homeowner (who has just shot and especially if they Killed the intruder) claims from the start that "I was afraid for my life", it can go a LONG way to protecting a homeowner. It can answer many questions before they even get asked.

Interestingly enough, I have had one instructor (who claimed he'll never admit to telling us to do this) strongly advise that if we are ever in a lethal-force situation at home that we should state, on the phone for 911 to record, that we are afraid for our lives and for our safety if we are ever forced to shoot.

Shooting on the porch isn't exactly covered in Mas Ayoob's book on CCW but he does make a point of telling us we NEED to be first on the phone to prevent the BG from making the call and confusing the issue when LEO arrives and has to make a very fast judgement of the guy drawing down on people in the house. It's a little off-topic but the point is a very good one -- be the FIRST person to call it in if it's at all possible. Personally, I'd rather stop the intruder working on my front door AT my front door rather than wait for him to work his way back to me and my wife. Now, if he's already in, that's another story altogether...

[Irving]

The question of what is considered Breaking and Entering is a good one. I know that as far as insurance is considered, there is a difference between someone entering an unlocked or open door and physically breaking into the door. In some cases, your stuff will not be covered if there is no sign of forced entry. However, that is just specifically the way that insurance policies are written, and is probably entirely different than the law itself. I'd also like to know how this would be handled. As I'm under the impression, that just because my door is open, is not an invitation for someone to enter my sanctuary.

[clublights]

The question of what is considered Breaking and Entering is a good one. I know that as far as insurance is considered, there is a difference between someone entering an unlocked or open door and physically breaking into the door. In some cases, your stuff will not be covered if there is no sign of forced entry. However, that is just specifically the way that insurance policies are written, and is probably entirely different than the law itself. I'd also like to know how this would be handled. As I'm under the impression, that just because my door is open, is not an invitation for someone to enter my sanctuary.

I think that is to help prevent fraud. as in " gee mister insurance man .. my 2000 dollar TV is gone.. musta been stolen .. better write me a check. "

if your door is OPEN OPEN ( as in not just no locked but actually open) the police can just walk in . I think the breaking and entering kinda falls in the the same way . the cops can't just open the door ( unless they have reasonable supiscion some one is in need of help .. we've all seen that line in cop movies/ shows)


of course I could be wrong.......... any officers wanna pipe in here ??

[Bailey Guns]

I think that was a great statement Colorado Luckydog. It makes me sad that you can't yell at the neighbor kids for doing stupid shit without people wanting to sue you anymore.

Isn't that the truth. I remember when I was a kid...if some other kid's parent caught me doing something I shouldn't have been doing that parent would usually smack my ass a few times and drag me back to the house. Then the other parent - while waiting for my parent(s) to come over - would smack my ass a few times. My parents would show up and I'd get my ass kicked again.

It would generally turn into a community ass-kickin'. Frankly, I think the parents just enjoyed whackin' a kid around a little bit...like it was some sort of parental group therapy.

ETA: I read this from page 1 and made this comment right after reading Stu's comment. I see from continuing to read that some others had similar experiences!

[Bailey Guns]

The "Make My Day" statute has been widely interpreted and there are at least two instances I can think of where the BG was shot outside the home (one without ever making entry) and it was ruled by the DA/jury as a MMD shoot.

There is NO requirement to be in fear of your life in a MMD shooting according to how the statute is written. Basically, according to the statute, any occupant of the dwelling must have a reasonable belief that 3 things have happened:

There has been an unlawful/uninvited entry into the dwelling.
The intruder has committed (or will commit, is committing) a crime against person or property inside the dwelling.
The occupant has a reasonable belief the intruder MIGHT use any degree of force, no matter how slight, against ANY occupant.Therefore, according to how the statute is written, if the occupant can articulate a reasonable belief those 3 criteria have been met, the occupant can use any degree of force, including deadly force, to protect persons and/or property inside the dwelling.





There is case law to support shooting prior to entry or shooting outside the home:
Here's one:
Ault, CO: In 2004 a man upset that his dog was shot went to his neighbor's house carrying a 3-foot, wooden club. He suspected this neighbor had shot his dog with a pellet gun. He began breaking down the wooden/glass front door and threatening the occupant. The occupant fired a single shot from a 12ga, through the broken door, and killed the dog-owner on the front porch. The occupant was arrested and charged with 2nd Deg Murder but released when the DA said current court interpretation of the MMD law covered the occupant's actions.
Another: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20051221/ai_n15981590/
On Sept. 5, 2004, Hill got into a fight with Knott's girlfriend, Amanda Padilla, over a missing purse during a party at his house in the 500 block of Potter Circle. Padilla admitted punching Hill before he got a rifle and ordered Padilla and her friend Alessandra Ash out of the house.
The women returned with Knott and Ash's boyfriend, Anthony Padilla. The four went to Hill's basement room, where he was asleep, and Amanda Padilla admitting punching him again. She also admitted using brass knuckles, opening a gash in Hill's head.
Amanda Padilla, who received limited immunity in exchange for her testimony, faces a charge of second-degree assault with a deadly weapon. Anthony Padilla faces a conspiracy charge after he allegedly gave Amanda Padilla the brass knuckles.
When they left Hill's house, Hill got a rifle, loaded it and fired once from the porch at the car Knott was sitting in. Knott crashed the car into a house and died of a gunshot wound to the back.
The foreman said those facts fit the Make My Day defense. "Although Mr. Knott was in his vehicle, there was no credible evidence that Mr. Knott was leaving," the foreman wrote, adding that testimony showed some of the people were still outside a car yelling at Hill.
In an interview after the verdict, the foreman said the law offers no clear "line" where an intruder must be before deadly force can be used.The bottom line...in my opinion what the law says and how it's actually applied appear to be two different things. There are several other actual cases of MMD shootings that are very interesting if you care to search for them.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Anymore on this? What is going on? Did the DA decide if he was going to file charges against the homeowner?