View Full Version : Old story...new comments (M4 sux in Afg)
Nothing new here but...sharing for casual reading...
SOURCE: FOX News
U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/25/military-reconsiders-armys-use-m-rifles-afghanistan/?test=latestnews)
M4 Vs. AK-47: Is U.S. Army Outgunned in Afghanistan? (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/25/army-outgunned-afghanistan/?test=latestnews)
Wasn't this why people were looking into the 6.8?
So personal question: If you had to supply your own weapon to carry in the sandbox, what would it be? (make and caliber please)
i.e - Scar in 6.8?
- ACR in 7.62x39?
- etc.
Radio....Little Birds, DAPS, A-10's and B'2's have more firepower than I could carry. (and I don't have to clean them!)
Appreciated humor, but sometimes you don't have a 2-15 minutes to wait on air support.
So back to the original question.
I carried and standard 16" and 10.5" M4's and had no problems with them. Malfunctions are, more often than not, due to operator error. In dusty environments with varying temperatures, you have to use a lubrication that does not burn off after the first round. Grease (like milcom's TW-25B) works much better than any oil and doesn't collect dirt. As far as 5.56 retaining terminal ballistics, I've had single shot success as far as 647 yards with M855 (I won't get into the defficiencies of M855 here, that's another discussion). Soldiers now are not taking care of their gear and not making the shots count. This easily corelates to the 9mm vs .45 or 1911 vs Glock arguments. The people complaining about the M4 are the same ones who lack proper descipline to maintain their equipment and work on basic rifle fundamentals. I've yet to meet anyone else in USASOC that doesn't like the M4. The M4 is not the best in every dept, but the best overall for our guys deployed in Afghanishit. The M4 can be a <600 yd weapon if the shooter wishes. Anything beyond that requires a bolt gun or Chey-Tac/Barrett.
Nice answer Coloccw. Thanks for the explanation.
I would believe that it's often operator error - but in that case, how come the douchebags always get on TV/etc? Ha. I see soldiers at the range practicing and sometimes the things they do and how they handle their firearms are downright scary.
And then theres the fight of: AK round hits harder than the M4. But the M4 is more accurate. etc.
I guess it is likening of the 9 vs 45 debate.
iamhunter
05-26-2010, 11:08
Nice answer Coloccw. Thanks for the explanation.
I would believe that it's often operator error - but in that case, how come the douchebags always get on TV/etc? Ha. I see soldiers at the range practicing and sometimes the things they do and how they handle their firearms are downright scary.
And then theres the fight of: AK round hits harder than the M4. But the M4 is more accurate. etc.
I guess it is likening of the 9 vs 45 debate.
I know a ton of military guys and I often ask them "so do you do alot of firearms training/practice"
there answer is typically, "no, at best we go down to the range at the base and shoot of 200-300 rounds a few times a year".
Granted they weren't infantrymen, but stil....
DocMedic
05-26-2010, 11:09
Radio....Little Birds, DAPS, A-10's and B'2's have more firepower than I could carry. (and I don't have to clean them!)
^This
iamhunter
05-26-2010, 11:13
Anyways, there is an easy answer.
It would come in the form of a monolithic piston-operated upper chambered in 6.5 grendel.
7.62 ballistics,
5.56 recoil and capacity,
Monolithic/piston dust tolerance and reliability.
win/win.
And it would push the grendel into the mass-market, so I could finally afford it [Beer]
Only problem with 6.5/6.8 (SPC, grendel, etc) is that magazine capacity is less. Although only about 4 rounds per mag, you have to figure 6 mags per soldier, times 28 per platoon, times 4 per company etc. The Commander sees that as a loss of almost 2700 rounds carried per company. To make up that difference, each soldier has to carry an additional magazine which adds weight to their kit, $$ for mag puches and more mags, etc....Not a good logistical choice despite the ballistic benefits.
how come the douchebags always get on TV/etc?
They are back at the FOB and not out on missions for a reason.....(I guess they're scared that someone will steal their new HD TV and PS3. Damn FOBBITS!)
They are back at the FOB and not out on missions for a reason.....(I guess they're scared that someone will steal their new HD TV and PS3. Damn FOBBITS!)
HAHA.
I've heard the arguements for the pros and cons of 6.5/6.8 versus 5.56/7.62.
It seems it always comes down too: Yes it's a better round, but there is limited capacity and it weighs more.
Wouldn't that be a great excuse to start really training the troops on shot placement versus "accuracy by volumne"?
And help me out: FOB stands for....?
Wouldn't that be a great excuse to start really training the troops on shot placement versus "accuracy by volumne"?
The money for that went to the banks and car companies....
Ah, thank you Sir. I was thinking along the lines of "F'ing Outhouse Bar" or something. Ha.
Besides, everyone knows that PC gaming is better than PS3....
Their internet connection is slow......too many FOBBITS at once.
I know a ton of military guys and I often ask them "so do you do alot of firearms training/practice"
there answer is typically, "no, at best we go down to the range at the base and shoot of 200-300 rounds a few times a year".
Granted they weren't infantrymen, but stil....
Way back in the dark ages, The only time I Practiced with the .45 was the day I qualified with it.. Then I didn't shoot it the rest of the time I was at Campbell. Carried it about 6-7 times out in the field, Just didn't shoot it again.
DocMedic
05-26-2010, 12:01
Way back in the dark ages, The only time I Practiced with the .45 was the day I qualified with it.. Then I didn't shoot it the rest of the time I was at Campbell. Carried it about 6-7 times out in the field, Just didn't shoot it again.
Much hasn't change.
iamhunter
05-26-2010, 12:20
Well if they aren't willing to compromise on capacity with 6.5, then I guess they just need to train their infantrymen to shoot the 5.56 better....
Because 7.62 sure as hell won't solve any capacity problems. haha.
Way back...The only time I Practiced...qualified...didn't shoot...
Same here, excluding basic and a tour in the far east that dictated focused weapons training (M60 in my case) and quick reaction force participation, I never touched a weapon while in uniform. I was an Intell troop, issued a brief-case (seriously, in AIT) versus any arms. Spent a 2-year stint at Devens and we didn't even have an armory for the company, let alone having a dedicated A2 issued.
Not sure why, but I LOL'd at that..
Some how I pictured a "Briefcase Card".
68Charger
05-26-2010, 12:55
Well if they aren't willing to compromise on capacity with 6.5, then I guess they just need to train their infantrymen to shoot the 5.56 better....
Because 7.62 sure as hell won't solve any capacity problems. haha.
I don't think that will help in these scenarios.. at 600 yards, 5.56 77gr from an M4 is down to what, 300Lbs/ft of energy? 7.62 NATO is over twice that- but 6.5 Grendel with 144gr bullets is still over 800... very high BC projectiles...
but they'll never use it... shame
CrufflerSteve
05-26-2010, 13:07
It's like Yogi Berra said, "This is like deja vu all over again." When the Russians first came into Afghanistan they were complaining because they had AK-47's and the tribesman had Lee-Enfields. The .303 could outrange them.
Now they have AK's and we have the M4. I'd like to see a 6.5 to 6.8 round but I don't know how effective it will be. As the people posting here have been pointing out there isn't enough training to make every soldier proficient at long range with any rifle. There was a time when I was a good long range shot. I did some matches and practiced several times a month. I just can't see them adding sniper level training for everybody. A few years ago the military was so short of ammo and money they were using video games for training.
Steve
"I LOL'd at that...
It was hilarious my man, literally 4 full companies, twice a day march ~2 miles each way, cases swinging and young troops singin'...back-n-forth, hundreds of identical black brief-cases moving in perfect cadence with a bunch of Intell nerds in BDUs...I'll never forget the sight of that. Hundreds heading to/from a classic, monolithic, puratanical, English-style architecture, ivy-clad facility (looked like an "18th century prison" *, with ghosts and all) to get "educated."
Worst part, back then we had 10th Group on the other side of a very small post (10th long since moved and Devens mostly went to Huachuca), talk about getting some shit and a good rivalry, Green Beenies on one side and Intell Geeks on the other...the semi-annual boxing tourney's were quite the spectacle.
* The state of MA actually ended-up converting the post to a min-security prison years later, I think it still functions as one.
Keep in mind the types of bullets that are being used. FNJ and AP for the most part. Sure some are using 77 Sierra Matchkings which are a target bullet, not a hunting bullet.
If you hit a thin skinned critter with a FMJ or AP bullet, for the most part it does not matter what the bullet diameter is.
If you miss, caliber selection still isnt a player.
It is a training issue, not an equipment issue.
Clean your gun. Learn to shoot.
People always blame the game and the tools instead of blaming themselves.
68Charger
05-26-2010, 13:49
Keep in mind the types of bullets that are being used. FNJ and AP for the most part. Sure some are using 77 Sierra Matchkings which are a target bullet, not a hunting bullet.
If you hit a thin skinned critter with a FMJ or AP bullet, for the most part it does not matter what the bullet diameter is.
If you miss, caliber selection still isnt a player.
It is a training issue, not an equipment issue.
Clean your gun. Learn to shoot.
People always blame the game and the tools instead of blaming themselves.
There is a LOT of truth in this.. but there are better tools for 600+ meter engagements..(article was listing 2000-2500 feet)... even 20" M16s would be better than M4s... but neither is a ideal tool for that range
theGinsue
05-26-2010, 14:12
Spent a 2-year stint at Devens and ....
I served my time just a touch North @ Hanscom. Had neighbors in housing @ Hanscom stationed @ Devens. Rumor has it that they've engineered the last gen of MRE's there - and they're working on the next gen there as well.
I served my time just a touch North @ Hanscom. Had neighbors in housing @ Hanscom stationed @ Devens. Rumor has it that they've engineered the last gen of MRE's there - and they're working on the next gen there as well.
I saw your comment on Hanscom the other day in another thread. I lived in Ayer, Leominster and Boxboro (and in the barracks at Devens for a time) in the early to mid 80's, expensive place back then for an army private (me). Lived there twice, 84' and late 86' until I ETS'd in March of 88'. No desire to go back to the state of MA, nice country in the western half but a blue shit-hole in general. I liked Devens though, great base to live on actually.
I'd want to be designated marksman and have an old school M14,
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