PDA

View Full Version : New 5.56 rounds



275RLTW
06-28-2010, 14:22
http://www.defensereview.com/u-s-army-begins-shipping-m855a1-enhanced-performance-round-a-k-a-green-ammo-improved-5-56mm-nato-round-to-warfighters-m855-ball-ammo-gets-an-upgrade/


Hopefully it works better on soft targets than previous M855. I never understood why AP is acceptable for shooting people but not HP's? Stupid Geneva Conventions....

iamhunter
06-28-2010, 14:24
What the hell? They tell you how much better it is, but don't give one reason why.

@colocww, would HP be ideal for combat at all? Given the high probablility of barriers, thick clothing, and body armor, I would you think you'd be much better off with a mild AP or even hardball....

BigBear
06-28-2010, 14:28
I never understood why AP is acceptable for shooting people but not HP's?


I can answer that! Because AP's go straight through and the person shot could be saved, while with the damage that HP's do, one does not have the garauntee of saving the "victim" and thus is inhumane....


HAHAHA. No seriously... I'll try to post links when I find 'em.

What I still can't find the answer too is not what ammo is acceptable, but why anyone would shoot to injure and NOT kill?! HAHAHAHA. So I agree, Silly Geneva Conventions...

cowboykjohnson
06-28-2010, 14:29
There really isn't any info to back up why it is better... but it's green so Obama will approve!

Irving
06-28-2010, 14:30
I was always under the impression that fmj was used to wound rather than kill enemies. Something about wounding one guy will take 2-3 people off the battle field (1-2 guys to carry the guy to safety), opposed to just killing one guy.

Now that I think about it, I don't know where I originally heard that.

cowboykjohnson
06-28-2010, 14:32
I was always under the impression that fmj was used to wound rather than kill enemies. Something about wounding one guy will take 2-3 people off the battle field (1-2 guys to carry the guy to safety), opposed to just killing one guy.

Now that I think about it, I don't know where I originally heard that.
I have heard that from many people... but have never seen anything to back it up.

275RLTW
06-28-2010, 14:37
@colocww, would HP be ideal for combat at all? Given the high probablility of barriers, thick clothing, and body armor, I would you think you'd be much better off with a mild AP or even hardball....

Anything would be better than M855. 5-6 rounds to put down a 110lb man? Seriously? The "varmit grenades" were used by one contractor but he was booted out for that one (not using approved ammo). Not too many hadji's have body armor so I don't understand the reason for increased hard target penetration as if 5.56 is used for anti-tank purposes. Any why are we worried about "green" ammo to kill people with? Who cares if they get lead poisioning....that's the intent! Between this and the McChrystal firing, I'm really getting disappointed...but that's another thread.

BigBear
06-28-2010, 14:37
I personally think wounding is faulty logic.... They may be out of that particular battle, but you'll see them again and they won't be trying to "wound" you....

But I've heard the wounding thing too, which is where my eariler comment stems from I believe.

Byte Stryke
06-28-2010, 14:38
What the hell? They tell you how much better it is, but don't give one reason why.

@colocww, would HP be ideal for combat at all? Given the high probablility of barriers, thick clothing, and body armor, I would you think you'd be much better off with a mild AP or even hardball....


How dare you question the Party!
You will accept the propaganda as truth without question!

/sarcasm

I say our guys stick with the .308 and say screw the silly shit.
Nothing defeats an enemy like the overwhelming force of large amounts of Lead...

Fuck the Obamanauts and the Econauts.

Anyone remember the Movie(term used loosely) Starship Troopers?
I Loved the idea that in order to become a politician or vote or breed you had to prove yourself and serve in the national defense.

It adds a little chlorine to the gene-pool while diluting the bullshit levels in politics.(if just a little bit)

cowboykjohnson
06-28-2010, 14:40
Maybe they'll start selling of mass quantities of M855 for cheap now.... I can dream right?

275RLTW
06-28-2010, 14:44
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/ThursdayLandmarkBJeffreyWoods.pdf

here was it's competition, the MK 318 MOD 0...but don't listen to the input from the guys on the ground, they don't know anything...
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf

DD977GM2
06-28-2010, 16:15
If it is better [Beer]

IMHO it sounds like a whole smoke and mirrors bullshit. All that article said was that it is greener and improves upon the older M855. Not one piece of technical data to back up thier claim. [Bang]

275RLTW
06-28-2010, 16:34
If it is better [Beer]

IMHO it sounds like a whole smoke and mirrors bullshit. All that article said was that it is greener and improves upon the older M855. Not one piece of technical data to back up thier claim. [Bang]

Hmmmm...sounds like something from 1600 Penn Ave....

Hoosier
06-28-2010, 19:14
When they say "Green" I think they mean green tipped bullets, right?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/M855#Military_cartridge_types


Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 (United States): 5.56x45mm 62-grain FN SS109 ball cartridge, green tip w/steel penetrator and a lead core.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free (United States):62-grain green tip w/tungsten penetrator and a steel core. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws.When they talk about good-for-the-environment it's labeled "Lead Free." This is why you never shoot green tips at steel, ja?

H.

SAnd
06-28-2010, 19:50
The Hague Convention of 1899 prohibited the use of "Bullets which expand or flatten in the human body" by people that agreed to it. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein is worth reading. The movie isn't half as good as the book.

Byte Stryke
06-28-2010, 20:20
So in accordance to the document itself it is NOT a requirement for the United states to follow this agreement in that the Taliban never signed this declaration.



It will also cease to be obligatory from the moment when, in a war between Contracting or Acceding Parties, a Non-Contracting Party or a Non-Acceding Party shall join one of the belligerents.

so yeah... Break open the .50BMG explosive incendiary JHPs
Jihad that!
[M2]

what?...

I'm just stating the rule of war...

SNAFU
06-28-2010, 21:58
The Hague Convention of 1899 prohibited the use of "Bullets which expand or flatten in the human body" by people that agreed to it. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp



Could be wrong,will look in my library to verify.
It was done due to the first Boer War,called the "Transvaal War".
When the Dutch{Boers} were creating dum dum rounds,the first hollow points.
It terrified the Brits,who sought to make the rounds illeagel in future conflicts.
Due to its tremendious destructivness.

As a side note Winston Churchill was captured by the Boers,in the 2nd Boer War.

SAnd
06-28-2010, 22:51
Dum-Dum Arsenal was an Arsenal (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Arsenal), British military facility located near the town of Dum Dum (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Dum_Dum) (near Calcutta (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Calcutta)) in modern West Bengal (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/West_Bengal), India (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/India).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal

I'm sure other people and armies were looking into it also.

SNAFU
06-29-2010, 10:42
Dum-Dum Arsenal was an Arsenal (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Arsenal), British military facility located near the town of Dum Dum (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Dum_Dum) (near Calcutta (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Calcutta)) in modern West Bengal (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/West_Bengal), India (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/India).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal

I'm sure other people and armies were looking into it also.

Yes I know thast,notice I didn't capitalise the "D"
It is also what was called the round that was modified by cutting part of the bullet in the round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
The Boers were notorious for making these.

At the Hague Convention of 1899 ,it was the Germans who were trying to get the round banned.They had just invented the "spire" bullet for their Mausers.
Also note the convention only covered rounds upto 400grams.

agent-smith
06-29-2010, 11:03
So in accordance to the document itself it is NOT a requirement for the United states to follow this agreement in that the Taliban never signed this declaration.




so yeah... Break open the .50BMG explosive incendiary JHPs
Jihad that!
[M2]

what?...

I'm just stating the rule of war...
I don't think that the U.S. ever formally "signed" the Hague Convention of 1899 which specified "The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions." (the U.S. has accepted/acknowledged the Convention/treaty/whatever but we're under no formal/legal obligation to do so)

The U.S. did sign the Hague Convention of 1907, which states: "…it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

Personally, I don't either way; I say we use whatever is most effective.

theGinsue
06-29-2010, 12:43
While I was Active Duty, I was always told that, according to International Law, Hollow Points were considered illegal in most cases because they could be expected to cause undue pain and suffering, which (again, according to International Law) is paramount to torture.

From the current USAF Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) Annual Training:
(changes to text color added by me for emphasis)

Section 4: Weapons
All weapons used by the Air Force are reviewed to make sure they are legal. So if the Air Force issues you a weapon, you can use it. Be sure to use the weapon in the form it is issued to you. Altering the weapon (e.g., making bullets hollow point) can make a legal weapon illegal.


Weapons are evaluated to see if they cause unnecessary suffering. If they do they are illegal. Some people are surprised at which weapons are legal and which weapons are illegal.

Legal Weapons
...Napalm
...Flame Throwers
...White Phosphorous
...Nuclear Weapons

Illegal Weapons
...Poisons
...Asphyxiating Agents
...Biological Weapons


Projectiles must be jacketed to be legal. They cannot be expanding or exploding. Therefore glass projectile bullets are illegal. Hollow point bullets are illegal for most people to use. There are exceptions for some special forces and security forces personnel (formerly called "security police").

https://golearn.csd.disa.mil/kc/content/ilc/courses/LOACv20100513/images/018.jpg

theGinsue
06-29-2010, 12:58
Maybe they'll start selling of mass quantities of M855 for cheap now.... I can dream right?

Sure, but then they'll re-instate the "no lead bullets" rule in National parks and expand it to National Forests, state parks, etc. and require you to pay "lead credits" for shooting lead bullets anyplace they still allow the use of lead.

You do realize that we can't win; don't you?