Kimber or Springfield 1911?

[nogaroheli]

I know this is probably a dead horse, but I gotta ask. I shot BlackFord76's Desert Warrior recently and now I'm doing my research on a new 1911, cause his was awesome! Everyone I know with a Kimber loves it and I've been looking at getting one from them. I'm looking at the Kimber Warrior/Desert Warrior or Eclipse Custom.

However, I love my Springfields and their customer service has been outstanding for me so far. Once I saw the Combat Blackened Stainless 1911 they have my new 1911 lust grew just a little bit- it's so sexy.

So, anyone have an opinion based on personal experience? Anybody have a nice used one? [Tooth]

[Graves]

Both great guns but having spent quite a bit of time with both I'll take SA over Kimber every time. The DW is one of Kimber's finest offerings IMO as it's still in pre series II form so you really can't go wrong there.

[jmg8550]

I have a SA 1911 operator that is a fantastic firearm. I'll put it up against a Kimber of the same price range anyday. Very very accurate from the factory.

[MrPrena]

I only own 2 1911s.
One is SA TRP Operator, and other one is Kimber Desert Warrior.
2 different full size 1911. One has a bull barrel, and other has a bushing.
Both are great firearm.

[Elhuero]

whichever is less expensive

[BPTactical]

In all honesty Kimbers can be a crap shoot. I have seen some great pistols from the factory but I have also had to work over a few that would not run new out of the box.
I have never seen a Springfield that wouldnt run new out of the box.
The issues with Kimbers were just stupid, simple things that never should have left the factory. ( Quality Control?) The biggest offender has been barrels that overhung the ramp when when at the beginning of the loading cycle (Slide to the rear and fully out of battery). I have seen this on 4 brand new pistols. The pistols would not even run 1 magazine of ammo without jamming up.
For stupid issues like that you should not see them on a $1K pistol.
Now dont get me wrong-Almost every 1911 pattern pistol is going to have the occasional hiccup when new. Most can be attributed to the wearing in process and or crappy factory mags.
But on the Kimbers I have worked on they were hard mechanical issues that came from the factory.

[earplug]

Springfield supports many types of shooting sports if that matters to you.

[BPTactical]

Springfield supports many types of shooting sports if that matters to you.
Not to mention from the folks I have spoken with, Kimbers customer service is not all that outstanding.
Springfields is excellent, if you even need it.

[bobbyfairbanks]

For God Sake Don't get a Kimber!

[PanamaDave]

I wanted a Kimber Eclipse initially but ended up with a SA Black Stainless Tactical for my first 1911 (PX9154LP) before I became a dealer. I've been very happy with my "poor mans Eclipse" and saved ~$325 back then between the two. [UZI]

http://i42.tinypic.com/261nklz.jpg

[tmckay2]

this is a tough one. both are good, it just depends. there can be issues with either but both companies seem to have decent customer service. i have one of each

[275RLTW]

Look at S&W. Best custom features for the money. Kimber wouldn't warranty one of thier aluminum frames that bent while I was in Afghanistan. They say because it was used out of the USA and couldn't replace it. Crappy way to treat someone who was using their product to fight with. Their idea of "customer service" was passed around to everyone at USASOC for that disrespect. The S&W scandium frames are doing well, alot stronger than aluminum, the same weight, better gunsmiths (they can get an external extractor to work), and much better customer service. Springfields are well known (with a few exceptions, of course) but heavy for daily carry. You end up paying alot for little features.

[ColoWyo]

Don't forget STI. I've had a Kimber and an SA. I liked them both, but my new STI is hands down better.

[SA Friday]

If you are not listening to BP, then you are being led the wrong direction. He is spot on.

[ERNO]

I know this is probably a dead horse, but I gotta ask. I shot BlackFord76's Desert Warrior recently and now I'm doing my research on a new 1911, cause his was awesome! Everyone I know with a Kimber loves it and I've been looking at getting one from them. I'm looking at the Kimber Warrior/Desert Warrior or Eclipse Custom.

However, I love my Springfields and their customer service has been outstanding for me so far. Once I saw the Combat Blackened Stainless 1911 they have my new 1911 lust grew just a little bit- it's so sexy.

So, anyone have an opinion based on personal experience? Anybody have a nice used one? [Tooth] I have a KIMBER ECLIPSE [ 45 ACP ] and a SA 1911 [9 MM] with a prefitted custom NOLAN barrel .
I like my Kimber better,because it is a shooter.I think it came with a better trigger pull,out of the box,than the SA 1911;which still needs a trigger job.Plus, I think Kimber has better quality barrels.But it might be because I cain't find accurate 9mm ammo.My Kimber's tritum rear sight came loose;I had to send steel slide back twice because the tritum looked depleted;the original was loose.I don't think Kimbers foce injection moulded parts are not as strong as they put them them up to be.The" MIM"disconnecter broke after approx. 15,000 rds. which Kimber replaced.I've never had any factory service with Springfield Armory.[Beer] I'll take STI, hands down over both of them.

[the_man]

Look at S&W. Best custom features for the money. Kimber wouldn't warranty one of thier aluminum frames that bent while I was in Afghanistan. They say because it was used out of the USA and couldn't replace it. Crappy way to treat someone who was using their product to fight with. Their idea of "customer service" was passed around to everyone at USASOC for that disrespect. The S&W scandium frames are doing well, alot stronger than aluminum, the same weight, better gunsmiths (they can get an external extractor to work), and much better customer service. Springfields are well known (with a few exceptions, of course) but heavy for daily carry. You end up paying alot for little features.

Scandium frames are aluminum frames alloyed with scandium. Smith frames are remarkably strong but it does have issues if the material is correctly process. I have own or have owned all three. My daily carry is a kimber and I have had no problems. I shoot a SA TRP and Loaded Operator regularly and have no problems. I rarely shot the Smith and I had no problems. But I would agree that SA reputation and customer service is top notch

[Ah Pook]

Between the two choices, SA hands down. Always been happy with Colt too. I would/will take a hard look at the STIs next time around.

[CO-Exprs]

Kimber and Springfield have been selling on thier name for far too long. You have to get a custom shop Kimber to get a middle of the road barrel and thier customer service is good, but takes too long. My kimber problems were solved free of charge, but it took a year and 5 trips to NY. Springfield is the same deal, but with crabby customer service. My next competition single stack will be an STI. They are the best made "production" 1911s, with tool steel internals, good barrels and the very best customer service. Thery are reasonably priced and most of the cool aftermarket stuff out there was designed to fit either colts or STIs with minimal fitting, due to the extreme competition exposure STIs get. S&W makes thier pistols with high quality frames, slides and barrels, but the internals are even worse than Para. If you get a non performance center S&W, plan on dumping the internals for quality lock works and you will have a very nice pistol.

[spyder]

I had a stainless Raptor ll that was a great gun. I had time with my friends SA 1911 and they are both accurate out of the box, and like my colt, the recoil is not much different. From there, I would just go with what you want to pay for your gun. If you could, I would say to drop another $700 and go all out with a MK23. Best hand gun by far that I have. Well, well worth the money also. For either of the 1911's you are thinking, with the kimber, I would say you are just paying for the name when compared to the SA.

[c5fourj]

No mention of budget here but, for around 1300 you could have a Dan Wesson.
I have Springfields and Colts but the best one by far is the Dan Wesson, smooth action, perfect trigger and very accuate.

[CO-Exprs]

Dido on the Dan Wesson. Very well made, good parts and built 100% in the U.S. A friend of mine has one, and I found myself being surprisingly impressed. I'm not ashamed to say that I am a 1911 snob, and find the Dan Wessons, to be soid gats.

[jimboni]

Just another +1 for BP's advice.

I'm a long time 1911 fan and my choice is always a Springer over a Kimber. My Dan Wesson commander remains the finest 1911 I have ever owned. Better made and more accurate than my full size STI, and a bit less money. I've only had one Kimber I trusted completely, an older custom target. Why I ever traded it is beyond me.

If money is tight, an SA mil spec is the best bang for the buck.

[nogaroheli]

http://i42.tinypic.com/261nklz.jpg

Well all the talk about Springfield from you guys and the customer service I've heard about, and received from them pushed me the Springfield route. Finding this exact model was like trying to find the two horned unicorn but I found it and got the same pistol as PanamaDave above. It's been to the range twice and only had a few missteps in 250 rounds (which were mag related, only on the first round of the same mag), the trigger was a little rough at first so groups were a little bigger than I hoped but after stoning the sear and some other stuff it's turning into a very accurate pistol.
Thanks for all the different suggestions and next time I'll look harder at Dan Wessons and STI's, for now I'm pretty satisfied with my new Springfield!

[Graves]

Dido on the Dan Wesson. Very well made, good parts and built 100% in the U.S. A friend of mine has one, and I found myself being surprisingly impressed. I'm not ashamed to say that I am a 1911 snob, and find the Dan Wessons, to be soid gats.

Agreed, look for a blem and you can have Ed Brown quality at a Kimber price.

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac351/grav3s/photo-34.jpg
This damn thing is tighter than my Baers. Still need the wrench to pull the bushing, but 600rds and not even the slightest hiccup.

ETA: I Seriously need to use my digi cam more, these crappy phone pics are just waaaaay to easy to post.

[thecatsfan]

Wow, you guys have given me a ton to think about. I am in the same boat. Currently shopping for a new 1911. My primary requirements are full size and tritium night sights. My budget is right at $1,000, plus or minus a little.

This SA Loaded in Black Stainless sure has me thinking. Except the one I keep seeing is the Target model which has adjustable rear sights. I want a gun that can handle carry and even SHTF scenarios and I don't know if I should go with fixed sights.

Looked at STI and everything they have that I would want is in the $1800 range. Just can't swing that.

[Mazin]

Ok I can't comment on anything other than Kimber because thats all that I have owned (earlier models) I have had no issues with any of mine except when i over oil and have a mis-feed. I have had the TLE/Rl 2, Ultra CDP2, Pro Carry, compact Raptor, Crimson tide. But it has been a long time since I have bought a new one and I'm currently looking as well, with all of what I hear about their QC I'm looking at a SA. Anyone else have ether a Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown they want to go into further details about?

[hurley842002]

I only have experience with Springfield 1911's, my first one a GI Champion, and the rest Loaded Models. I have NOTHING but good things to say about the Fit,Finish, and Function of the Loaded Springfield 1911. It truly is IMO the best value for a 1911. I recently picked up a brand new Parkerized Loaded, with night sights and all, for $709 before taxes, at Green Mountain Guns. I wasn't even able to find the same pistol online for less than $750.

Edited to add: I just noticed you posted in the Wanted section, I didn't want to crap in that thread, so i'll post it here. I think you are really limiting your options by requiring night sights, they can always be added later, Just a thought.

[thecatsfan]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212506415

Here is a Parkerized Loaded brand new with night sights for $715.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213346893

Here is another for $700. And the shipping and FFL fees cost about the same or sometimes even less than sales tax. Jensen in Loveland sells them for as low as $695. Don't get me wrong, you got a great deal. But other dealers do sell them for that price. And I only know this because I have been shopping 1911s like crazy this week.

For me, night sights are a requirement. Yes I know I can send the gun in to the manufacturer, or an aftermarket company, and have them installed after I buy the gun - but for much more than the cost of pre-installed night sights. I simply would rather not go down that road. I started down that road recently and I ended up selling the gun rather than spend the outrageous cost to change the sights. I think you are so much better off stepping up and buying the gun you want with the options you need than paying even more in the long run to change the gun you bought into the gun you wanted. Just my $.02.

Just this weekend, I sold a Springfield 1911 because of the crappy factory sights and the outrageous price I was quoted by multiple sources to have the sights replaced. Nights sights are far cheaper if they are a factory option.

The 1911 I just sold was a stainless GI model. I called Springfield and talked to the custom shop. Because of the proprietary tenon front sight on that model (and some other SA 1911s), you cannot put dovetail sights on them without extensive professional millwork and refinishing. A staked on front night sight is not recomended and SA won't even do it. Neither will Novak. SA quoted me $260 to mill the slide and install night sights. Novak quoted me exactly the same. That price did not include any refinishing work or shipping costs either way. And if I didn't send them the entire gun, they would not guarantee bore and sight alignment. And to send the whole gun, shipping has to be overnight both ways. So, I was looking at a minimum of $300 to put night sights on a $600 gun. Not worth it! So I sold it. I realize the GI model is an extreme example for SA because those GI sights are the worst, and that is the most expensive model to convert, but even on other models it is at least $150 plus shipping both ways. I am not about to spend $200 to $300 for an $80 factory option if I can avoid it.

And just FYI in case anybody is interested. Today I called both Springfield and Kimber and talked to them about these Blackened Stainless models like the one pictured above because I really like the look of that gun and I thought stainless with the black slide would be a good combination between corrosion resistance and low visibility for carrying in a black holster. This particular model in this thread is the Loaded Full Size Blackened Stainles Combat model# PX9154LP. MSRP is $1,000 and it has standard 3 dot sights. The blackened model from Kimber is the Eclipse Custom II with an MSRP of $1,250 - tritium sights included.

Anyway, both Kimber and SA told me before I even asked, if you plan to carry that gun at all, you do NOT want the Blackened Stainless Steel finish. Before I even got to my questions. I just told them what model I was looking at and both companies told me straight up that this is their worst finish for wear. The black comes off easily and they do not recommend it to any customer who will be holstering the gun on a regular basis. Both companies told me this without being prompted, which makes me think they have had complaints. Either way, both companies convinced me not to buy that gun. When I mentioned that I was planning to carry the gun, they both suggested I would be happier with either full stainless or full black, such as an anodized or ArmoryKote finish. They even recommended a full black slide on a stainless body over the blackened model. And one of the sales reps actually referred to the Blackened SA as a "range" gun. And they both warned me that the blackened model was susceptible to surface rust.

I take all of this with a grain of salt. I am not knocking either gun and I would encourage anyone who likes these models to do their own research. I am simply passing on what they told me, and I probably wouldn't have paid as much attention if it wasn't that both sales reps' statements were so eerily similar. They both literally talked me out of these models.

As for SA, I have been researching every single model they have and am really pretty disappointed with the current offerings. I guess what I am looking for is just not what they are selling. I simply want a full-size frame with a 5" barrel, fixed night sights, a decent quality finish, and a decent looking weapon that has features that match its price. I have found 1 or 2 SA models I feel are worth considering.

I sincerely doubt I will find the gun I want here on the boards and will probably be at Jensen later this week to buy from them. I just posted for the heck of it. Never hurts to try.

It's weird. I spent far less time researching my first AR build and all the parts I bought than I have trying to find a decent 1911. And of course, up north in this area, the selection at most dealers is a joke, so I can't see most of them in person.

[twitchyfinger]

Springfield Armory PX9154LP SPH 1911 45 Combat BLK SS 5"

Match barrel. I.L.S. (Integral Locking System). Titanium firing pin. Forged frame & slide. Lightweight adjustable speed trigger. Trigger pull: 5 to 6 lbs. Carry bevel treatment. Torx head grip screws. Captive dual recoil spring assembly. High-Hand beavertail grip safety. Ambidextrous thumb safety. Includes 2 magazines.Product Model: 1911-A1 SERVICE CUSTOM LOADED"Barrel Length: ""5"""""""Capacity: 7Grips: Black

Trying to find out if the novak style sights are night sight or not but 5280 armory has one for $820
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213526937

[Graves]

Twitchy, I'm afraid not. The PX9154LP and the PX9151LP are the only "Loaded" models in SA's line up that don't have NS.

[twitchyfinger]

Thanks Graves I couldn't find much info on the sights. I have them on my loaded champion and love them. Wonder why they didn't put them on that model?

[Graves]

You can get better aftermarket sights anyways. If you get a chance, take a look at an Ed Brown or Wilson with novak style trijicons, the sights might appear to be the same from a quick glance at the side but when you look into the sights you'll notice the trijicons on the EB/WC's are different from the trijicons on the SA. The SA's (IMO) are pretty lousy in daylight because the vials have a chrome (very thin) ring around them whereas some other Novak style triji's have a much more pronounced (thicker) white ring around the vials.

The rears really don't matter to me as Im usually focused on the front sight so a fiber optic, brass bead, or a big dot up front works pretty well for target duty, my bed side or carry guns however all have them for a better piece of mind but the target guns all have nekid rears lol...you can verify it yourself if you ever dig em up from that damn lake!

[thecatsfan]

Twitchy, thanks for the idea, but I have checked out that model, and yes I can find that one pretty cheap on Gun Broker, but it does not include night sights. It has low-profile combat 3 dot sights.

Interesting that my definition of a combat weapon is one that might be used in unfriendly circumstances, and I would think nights sights would be a combat option. But I guess that's just my thinking.

Also, if you look at the PX9152LP, the black stainless model that does have night sights, they are target sights and are very pronounced. Too pronounced for a carry gun in my opinion.

[thecatsfan]

You can get better aftermarket sights anyways. If you get a chance, take a look at an Ed Brown or Wilson with novak style trijicons, the sights might appear to be the same from a quick glance at the side but when you look into the sights you'll notice the trijicons on the EB/WC's are different from the trijicons on the SA. The SA's (IMO) are pretty lousy in daylight because the vials have a chrome (very thin) ring around them whereas some other Novak style triji's have a much more pronounced (thicker) white ring around the vials.

I have no doubt you are right. But to me this is not a selling point for buying a SA. Other brands of 1911s have better night sights from the factory.

I still don't understand why I should go out and spend over $1K for a brand new 1911 openly knowing the sights on it need to be immediately changed. Maybe my expectations are too high, but in my opinion, as consumers, we should demand what we want, not what we can settle for and replace at out own cost.

For $1K plus, I know I am not getting a competition ready match grade 1911. But I think the expectation that the gun should be able to perform out of the box as a carry weapon - with some break-in period - without spending money on it. Will I get that? Looking doubtful. Should gun buyers be satisfied with that? I don't think so.

A little frustrated with this purchase research for sure.

[twitchyfinger]

How about a Rock River 1911 Elite Commando 45ACP Custom? It does have the novak night sights. Nice high end 1911!

Review:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/rock_092805/
http://www.jj-enterprises.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/C55-7.jpg

[thecatsfan]

I might have to consider that. Have heard pretty good things about RRA 1911s.

What city is J&J in? So I can look up a phone number.

[twitchyfinger]

http://www.jj-enterprises.net/2010/02/07/rock-river-1911-elite-commando-45acp-custom/

He is in Highlands Ranch and he is also a member here but I am not sure what his user name is as he doesn't post that often.

BTW: his ad for the pistol say's it's a 4" and as you can probably tell it is not. Just wanted to point that out.


J&J Enterprises – The Shootin’ Shack
417 E. Ridgeglen Way
Highlands Ranch, CO 80126
Phone: 303-470-6404
Fax: 303-471-8034
Email: jay@jj-enterprises.net

[thecatsfan]

That's a 4.25" barrel.

[nogaroheli]

Anyway, both Kimber and SA told me before I even asked, if you plan to carry that gun at all, you do NOT want the Blackened Stainless Steel finish. Before I even got to my questions. I just told them what model I was looking at and both companies told me straight up that this is their worst finish for wear. The black comes off easily and they do not recommend it to any customer who will be holstering the gun on a regular basis. Both companies told me this without being prompted, which makes me think they have had complaints. Either way, both companies convinced me not to buy that gun. When I mentioned that I was planning to carry the gun, they both suggested I would be happier with either full stainless or full black, such as an anodized or ArmoryKote finish. They even recommended a full black slide on a stainless body over the blackened model. And one of the sales reps actually referred to the Blackened SA as a "range" gun. And they both warned me that the blackened model was susceptible to surface rust.


Hey Cat, did Springfield elaborate on why the finish wore poorly? It's weird they said it was susceptible to surface rust- I know stainless can rust too but it is more resistant than other steels manufacturers offer. It also seems odd that they would recommend a stainless pistol or a pistol with the ArmoryKote finish because this IS a stainless pistol with the ArmoryKote finish.
Either way, good luck in your hunt, it sounds like you're doing your research.