View Full Version : USPSA changing their rule on Limited Division.
DocMedic
07-20-2010, 16:12
All this can be found here: Change on Limited division rule (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110320)
In short, Limited can use 1x Optic no extenders, Tactical can use a fixed or variable Optic, and Open can use whatever you can mount and drag to the line.
The idea behind the rule change was to attract new shooters to Multigun. The shooters out there who bought black rifles and threw red dots on because that's what they see guys carrying in the sandbox. This gives them a chance to come to a Multigun match with the equipment they have, and compete in a division with guys using similar equipment. I still remember the first USPSA 3 Gun match I came to. I had a Trijicon Reflex on my Duty rifle and had to compete in Open. (This was before Tactical). Totally turned me off from USPSA 3G and it was years before I tried it again. Telling the new guy with a red dot to compete in Tactical against the guy with the $1600.00 Swarovski is a bit like telling him he's competing against the guy with the full custom 2011 with his Ruger P85. The top Iron sight guys are still gonna beat them, red dot or not.
The hope was to not drive any existing shooters away, and attract new ones. There was quite a bit of consultation with some of the major 3 gun MD's in the country. Some are already allowing red dots in limited. They saw a large in flux of new folks come to matches. If we can get more people shooting Limited, without just shuffling the Divisions around, I see it as a good thing. If we find out after a year or so that no one is competing in Limited still and we haven't gained anything we can always revisit the decision. But I think this is going to be a good thing for Multigun in general and Limited specifically.
I'm for it personally, but what you guys think?
You know, I've never geared up for a competition because of that fact, I don't spend thousands outfitting my rig, I just sort of slowly add on as I get motivated and have extra money - I don't want to compete with a guy who has dropped a mortgage on his setup and pushes me out before I have a chance to prove myself.
It's sort of like if a presidential candidate were to spend, say, a billion dollars on his campaign when his opponent is limited to a third of that, he can just simply buy the white house. Oh crap, that IS what happened, maybe this rule is in flaw too :).
I'm for it personally, but what you guys think?
Good news. Kinda. Using iron sights will become a thing of the past at matches.
I don't want to compete with a guy who has dropped a mortgage on his setup and pushes me out before I have a chance to prove myself.
So practice harder and beat him with superior skill instead.
Never let your equipment be an excuse of not getting out there and doing it and trying to get better.
wfwsorge
07-20-2010, 19:32
So practice harder and beat him with superior skill instead.
Never let your equipment be an excuse of not getting out there and doing it and trying to get better.
+1
When I go to a match, I don't care how fast, how good, and how equipped people are. I'm not there to actually compete (because I can't at this time). I've actually stood at the line and had everyone behind me laughing out loud while I spent a whole magazine, then some more, trying to hit one steel plate. I go to matches to try and get better. It hasn't helped much since I've had zero formal training, but once I put myself through some classes and show up to matches more frequently, I think I'll have a better experience.
All that said, the only thing that has been holding me back from matches is no money from being temporarily unemployed. I love going to matches when I can.
You know, I've never geared up for a competition because of that fact, I don't spend thousands outfitting my rig, I just sort of slowly add on as I get motivated and have extra money - I don't want to compete with a guy who has dropped a mortgage on his setup and pushes me out before I have a chance to prove myself.
It's sort of like if a presidential candidate were to spend, say, a billion dollars on his campaign when his opponent is limited to a third of that, he can just simply buy the white house. Oh crap, that IS what happened, maybe this rule is in flaw too :).
Production
Limited 10
Single Stack
SA Friday
07-20-2010, 23:58
Production
Limited 10
Single Stack
In pistol competitions, yes. This is about 3 gun, and it's hard to convince a new shooter that he too can kick the crap out of the guy with the $3k gun with a Glock if he practices enough. Hell, it's hard to convince someone they can win with a DPMS and a 870 when everyone else has M2's and JPs. It is harder in some ways, but those ways have more to do with the will than the gun.
I don't necessarily like it. Iron sights will die. Shooting irons is three focal planes, and shooting a red dot is only two. There is a significant equipment difference there, and thus should have different divisions. Iron sights are just plane harder, and I have nothing but admiration for those that take on the challange. They shouldn't be subjegated to mediocrity within their own place in a shooting division.
Conversely, I can see a need to differentiate between the newer trend towards multi-focal optics vs. 1x optics, our current military set-up. I'm more inclined to regulate tactical to 1x optics, leave limited alone, and regulate multi-focal optics to the realm of Open.
Then again, I don't really have a dog in this hunt.
agent-smith
07-21-2010, 01:11
...I don't want to compete with a guy who has dropped a mortgage on his setup and pushes me out before I have a chance to prove myself.
Sack-up.
The next 3-gun I get a chance to shoot, I'm bringing my Garand.
I'll bet money that I have more fun than a sour-puss shooting a $5,000 AR.
Wow, you guys are being a bit harsh on my comments don't you think? I shoot pretty damn well, have never shot a competition and was only saying that why would I drop money and a lot of time (considering most are pretty far from me) to do a competition if I'm competing with a guy who is similarly skilled but better equipped. I understand that my goal would be to be a better shot than someone with better equipment but I can tell you that shooting red dot at 1,000 yards is going to have a significant advantage over iron sights.
So enough of the "sack up" shit, I doubt anyone who tells me that is Davey Crockett and can shoot a fly out of the air themselves.
Male PMS is a bitch, aint it?[Bang]
DocMedic
07-21-2010, 08:26
Conversely, I can see a need to differentiate between the newer trend towards multi-focal optics vs. 1x optics, our current military set-up. I'm more inclined to regulate tactical to 1x optics, leave limited alone, and regulate multi-focal optics to the realm of Open.
Then again, I don't really have a dog in this hunt.
The problem though was adding or in this case "Upping" variables to OPEN and leaving 1x optics to tactical, you would still only see 1-2 people compete in limited division. I'm not sure up north but down here when we do a tactical rifle match, we'd be lucky to even see one person shoot irons sights. I don't think "Iron Shooters" are going away, those who were shooting irons will still do so and smoke all new comers, and I still believe irons are more of a advantage then Reddots at distant targets due to being able to click in elevation. This sport really has became a "evolve or die"
I still believe irons are more of a advantage then Reddots at distant targets due to being able to click in elevation. This sport really has became a "evolve or die"
+1. There's something about clicking into a target that makes me feel like a better marksman, but you have to take a shot or two before you get dialed in at distance. Having never shot a competition, I don't know if they let you do that beforehand but that definitely will slow you down in the beginning. Of course I'm a bit old school with irons, scopes were sniper tools when I started out, now they are standard equipment. I'm stuck in my ways, I still prefer my old A2 carry handle over a flat top (and don't really have a pat answer for why...).
I'll bet money that I have more fun than a sour-puss shooting a $5,000 AR.
Envy's a bitch.
but I can tell you that shooting red dot at 1,000 yards is going to have a significant advantage over iron sights.
Maybe, maybe not. I lean towards not. Unless its a real small and perfectly round dot.
I know lots of palma shooters that shoot MOA size groups from a sling at 800-1000 yards, with iron sights.
The better shooter will always win. A lot of times better/expensive equipment just makes people feel like they are good. Gear queer is the term. And I am one of them.
Come on out and give it a try.
Using iron sights will become a thing of the past at matches.
I personally don't think anything will ever make irons go away.
So practice harder and beat him with superior skill instead. Never let your equipment be an excuse of not getting out there and doing it and trying to get better.
Always the voice of reason. +1
A $200K racecar won't make me Andretti.
There's something about clicking into a target that makes me feel like a better marksman, but you have to take a shot or two before you get dialed in at distance.
This brought to mind something. With the technology available and our advances in lasers, one would think someone would be able to come up with an alogrthym for red dot elevations. Something like those EOLADS Eotech sights, except the laser is a range finder that directly adjusts the red dot to the correct POA for x distance. Kind of like a surveyor's spike.
A $200K racecar won't make me Andretti.
Nope, you'd need much more these days. Having skill don't mean squat if you don't have the bread to back it.
Never let your equipment be an excuse of not getting out there and doing it and trying to get better.
I acquiesce.
I shoot pretty damn well, have never shot a competition
How can you shoot pretty damn well if you aren't comparing yourself to anyone else in competition?
shooting red dot at 1,000 yards is going to have a significant advantage over iron sights.
I don't think so, the dot will likely obscure the whole target at 1000 yards.
I suggest you give up the armchair internet bsing competition and come out and try a match sometime, we'd be happy to help you out.
How can you shoot pretty damn well if you aren't comparing yourself to anyone else in competition?
Army Expert Marksman, and I've proven myself where it really counts, not on a paper target that doesn't move or shoot back.
Armchair BS'ing... Not knowing anyone here personally I can't judge, but it feels a lot to me like RUBS telling bikers their business. I'm not a RUB.
Ok, I'm done with the "Flame Ranger" thread - I'll take a deep breath and walk away.
Back to the subject at hand...
I tend to agree with SA Friday.
I think Limited and He-Man should be Iron Sights only.
Tactical should be a non magnifing optic like an Aimpoint or EOTECH.
Open should be where any powered optic like ACOG or any variable.
Back when all this first started with SOF matches way back when decent optics were hard to find and they had to be a military issued optic. Thats why the Steyr Aug was so popular.
However, you dont find very many USPSA run 3-gun matches so I am happy to continue running the IMGA rules that a huge majority of the matches use. Kinda like IPSC rules, you wont find more than a few true IPSC matches in the US each year.
I dont know of any clubs running USPSA 3-Gun matches within a 6-8 hour drive of Colorado.
I personally don't think anything will ever make irons go away.
We are talking about their use in 3-gun matches here...
Ok, I'm done with the "Flame Ranger" thread - I'll take a deep breath and walk away.
I dont think anyone is outright "flaming" you.
Like you the military considers me a "marksman" of some sorts. Competing in the different games made me a much better shooter than any military training ever could.
Tell you what, why dont you come down to Pueblo this Sunday. Your match fee is on me.
We are talking about their use in 3-gun matches here...
Rgr, I caught that...
agent-smith
07-21-2010, 10:37
Envy's a bitch.
Nah, not at all. Well, at least not in my case.
I've got all sorts of neat-oh ARs (BCMs, Colts, among others).
I also enjoy shooting the ARs; my point isn't to degrade those with cool gear (heck, I have an AI AWP with an S&B PMII scope so I understand the logic of investing in quality) but just to say that even if you don't have the high-end stuff you can still get out and shoot and do the best with what you have regardless of where your score ends up.
I wasn't always able to have the toys that I have now, but I always enjoyed shooting (and never held anything against those who worked hard enough to afford the good stuff). Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it down to Pueblo this Sunday as I have to work but the next time I'm able to make it I'll make sure to use my Garand just because it is so much fun to shoot.
Ranger - I wasn't trying to flame you; if my post came across that way, it wasn't intentional.
I go to matches because shooting at targets that someone else set up is more fun than plinking by myself; so even if I come in last place, I still had more fun.
SA Friday
07-21-2010, 15:03
Army Expert Marksman, and I've proven myself where it really counts, not on a paper target that doesn't move or shoot back.
Armchair BS'ing... Not knowing anyone here personally I can't judge, but it feels a lot to me like RUBS telling bikers their business. I'm not a RUB.
Ok, I'm done with the "Flame Ranger" thread - I'll take a deep breath and walk away.
I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about the other posts. The difference is a few of us have been in both camps, competition shooters and war zone action. I was qualified on 6 different weapons systems and qualified Marksman in every course of fire allowed at one point. Then I went to a USPSA match and found out I didn't know shit. It was humbling, and still is. It's hard to explain this to someone. It's just one of those things that has to experienced. So, the previous posters aren't flaming you, they are trying to get you out to a match. It really does change your perspective of shooting, both tactically and competitively.
What they didn't tell you is that shooting a match is like taking a hit off of a crack pipe; just once and you are addicted.
Maybe, maybe not. I lean towards not. Unless its a real small and perfectly round dot.
I know lots of palma shooters that shoot MOA size groups from a sling at 800-1000 yards, with iron sights.
I agree. With good iron sights and skill to use them, shooter is better prepared to shoot good score at long range than with red dot sight.
Most red dot sights have huge parallax at longer ranges. How accurately can you center (for example) Aimpoint M2 red dot to the tube ? Even slight failure to center means you are not gonna hit anywhere near you want @1000 + dot size is huge and it is not even nearly perfect round dot.
Only perfectly round dots I have seen (=my eye thinks it perfectly round), have been in scopes with magnification. Swarovski Z6i, Zeiss Varipoint and Kahles CSX. S&B Flashdot is not usually very precise, because of how it works.
I find it much easier to use good target diopter sights, than red dot when have to shoot far away.
Red dots just are not designed for long range shooting. It is probably possible to design a long range red dot sight, but then you compromise many elements you want to have at close range.
With rifle, when range goes 20+ yd I am usually faster with some magnification and things get really different at about 50.
What I feel USPSA should do: to set up rifle-only-matches like IPSC does. There are many people who want to shoot rifle, but do not want to shoot pistol and/or shotgun. At least in Europe, iron sight division is strong. Not as strong as Open, but there are lots of people shooting just with iron sights.
I know Hoser´s tactical rifle matches and BRC´s Steel rifle matches. I think they are both the way to go. I have only heard stories about Hoser´s rifle matches though. I would love to participate, but it is too long drive for me most of the time :( Some day, definitely :)
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