VA Marajuana

[brokenscout]

Can you have a Medical Marajuana card and still have a CCW? I have to take to much medicine and was thinking about giving it a try. And my VA DR. said it would be good for me. And even the VA is on board
Thank you for your input
http://woundedwarriors.tumblr.com/post/864034470/va-approves-medical-marijuana-for-several-states
Also I was thinking about opening a Gun Shop/Liquer Store/Marajuana Dispensery. One stop shopping,you would have to have the proper ID. I have to look up the zoning laws first. Wish me luck. And yes we would take food stamps

[BigBear]

From my understanding, MJ is still a Federal offense, regardless of what the state says... So don't cross state lines, etc... I don't know. Would you seriously carry or want to be around/handling a gun when you're "medicating" etc?...

Interested to see others' thoughts.

[brokenscout]

Thats what I was thinking. But the VA supports it and is Federal,i'm confused. I was reading that there is different kinds of "medication" and ones that dont make you a lazy POS or drowsy. Also People take methadone,vicodin and alot of other drugs. So I don't think it would be any different.

[StagLefty]

If it impairs your judgement-NO !!!

[brokenscout]

Being in constant pain could also impare judjement. Being to old also. Not trying to start a fight just all good points.

[StagLefty]

I'm by no means an expert but in my youth ("60's") when I experimented I don't believe you'd want me to drive or have a weapon when inhaling. [Beer]

[BigBear]

I know there are different "grades" and all that jazz. I knew some guys who were great students, etc, but got hooked on the street stuff and their lives just went to poop. I wouldn't trust them with anything.

If the medical MJ has the same side effects and addiction rates... I say ANY affecting drug (including alcohol) should be carefully analyized and decided upon by the user him/herself.

[BadShot]

I would say that you'd be in a serious gray zone. One that very easily would go side ways on you when carrying a weapon. There are medications available that provide the medicinal component of Marijuana without the plant or traditional use (smoking, food ingestion, ect.). Not to mention there are more than likely better medications and pot for you anyway.

[Ranger]

Definitely a gray area. Anything that impairs you in any way, be it drugs or pain itself, could be dangerous - although I've shot in pain and I believe it would be different to shoot on meds. Having a lifetime supply of percoset for my back problems (that I almost never take), I can say that I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying while doped. Carrying while impared is an offense that can get your CCW revoked though.

[BigBear]

I had the full strength morhpine shots when I broke my neck... they took it away because I was using it too much (read: became addicted)... that was some good stuff.

Now, I've learned to live with my aches. I just tell folks I'm the oldest young kid they'll ever meet! HA.

[Hoosier]

Much to my surprise, I met someone here in Colorado who has both CCW and MMJ cards. So apparently the state doesn't have a problem with it.

They have THC in pill form. It's the same as EVERY other thing when it comes to dealing with firearms: be smart. If your dosage is very low controlled thing and after you've been on it a few weeks you should be able to judge your ability. Same would be said with Vicoden or Percocet or all the other drugs.

As for whether it's safe or not, well, I would trust something from a plant more than I would trust some chemical brewed up by man.

Sorry to hear you're dealing with chronic pain, I've seen relatives there before.

H.

[275RLTW]

I've discussed this before after talking with BATFE and CBI. They are in the process of creating a list of MM card holders. If you posess a medical marijuana card, you are according to federal regs, an unlawful user (regardless of what CO law says) and cannot purchase a firearm without commiting perjury. The county SO's I've worked with have all agreed that "unlawful user" as described on the CHP application refers to the federal definintion. The posession of a MM card and carrying a firearm mirror the guidelines of alcohol and the officer's interpretation of "under the influence." It would be up to the Sheriff of each county to decide if they allow MM card and CCW at the same time. Counties like Weld that do not allow MM dispensaries will probally be more strict in this than others. If you are under the influence and in posesssion= go to jail. MM card and carrying a firearm (with a permit)= up to Sheriff. Having a medical marijuana card can prohibit you from getting your concealed permit unless you fradulently answer no to question #8.

[BigBear]

I've discussed this before after talking with BATFE and CBI. They are in the process of creating a list of MM card holders. If you posess a medical marijuana card, you are according to federal regs, an unlawful user (regardless of what CO law says) and cannot purchase a firearm without commiting perjury. The county SO's I've worked with have all agreed that "unlawful user" as described on the CHP application refers to the federal definintion. The posession of a MM card and carrying a firearm mirror the guidelines of alcohol and the officer's interpretation of "under the influence." It would be up to the Sheriff of each county to decide if they allow MM card and CCW at the same time. Counties like Weld that do not allow MM dispensaries will probally be more strict in this than others. If you are under the influence and in posesssion= go to jail. MM card and carrying a firearm (with a permit)= up to Sheriff. Having a medical marijuana card can prohibit you from getting your concealed permit unless you fradulently answer no to question #8.


Rgr, I remember that discussion. I believe we had a thread on it somewhere.

[DeusExMachina]

Some issues arise when people think of having a MMJ card as freedom to smoke whenever. I listen to a radio show that has a lawyer come in and give advice once a week, and you wouldn't believe how many people call in pissed off that they got a DUI while high. "But I have a medical MJ card!!!" Morons.

That being said, its no different than if you were drinking and carrying...I don't think you'd have any issue having a CCW permit and a MMJ license, as long as you're not doing one while doing the other.

Just as you can't drink while carrying, if you don't smoke while carrying you shouldn't have an issue.

I also noticed that when doing a firearms background check, you could also make an argument that you are not an unlawful marijuana user (as stated on the form).

Disclaimer: I don't do drugs but advocate the regulation and taxation of MJ.

Edit: I didn't read before replying, so that's interesting that it is considered unlawful. Oh well. Get drunk instead! [Beer]

[CrufflerSteve]

I'm not going to criticize anybody for using MM. I have a chronic illness with a lot of pain and its fairly stabilized with a devil's brew of man made meds that will kill me sooner or later. (As part of the side-effects, I've gained & lost 150 pounds.) If I though MM would help I'd do it. One thing I have discovered during chronic pain episodes is that the pain messes me up so much it is like being wasted and when I take pain meds its like getting closer to normal. When I'm not in too much pain, pain meds make me goofy.

The main thing is the legal. MM is state and the feds don't like and the fed laws are on the books. There are those check boxes when buying a gun. Read them. The Douglas County Concealed Handgun Permit asks this also. Be careful.

Steve

[DeusExMachina]

A friend of mine who is a MMJ user said that the CO MMJ law specifies that only patients and the state have access to the card holder records.

So, your guess is as good as mine to which is true.

[brokenscout]

There are alot of good points and alot of grey area's. I wouldn't walk around shooting a gun and smoking ajoint. I see non"drug" users going shooting all the time using legal alchohol

[opie011]

The only thing I see wrong with a CCW and a MM card is that if you ever had to draw down on someone regardless if you were " high" or not, it wouldn't look good in court with a MM card.

[Ah Pook]

Also I was thinking about opening a Gun Shop/Liquer Store/Marajuana Dispensery.
Don't forget bait shop. :D


"8. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?"I am no expert.

If you have a MM card, then you are not an unlawful user. Correct? My understanding is that marijuana is not addicting (in the physical sense). At what point is someone considered "addicted"? Is an alcoholic addicted to a depressant? There are some definite gray areas.

I have had this conversation with what I would consider a respected FFL. From what he has been told, it's best to answer #8 as a no. Not sure how the MM card and CCW card will mix in the state.

[Great-Kazoo]

the 4473, or whatever the current designation ask if you are AN ILLEGAL user.
if the VA Doc prescribes it, ALL medical records are covered under HIPPA privacy.

[DeusExMachina]

Ah Pook, the point coloccw made was that is a federal form, and according to the fed you would be an illegal user.

[Irving]

I don't see how any agency can be creating a list of MMJ card holders.

[brokenscout]

My VA Doc said it would help me. I've been on pain killers for 5 years and am tired of it.I've never abused them. The federal go is confusing. The VA sais that they would support it in states that its legal

[Irving]

I know plenty of people with MMJ cards. I even know people who take only one hit at a time, not even every day. So just because you have an MMJ card, doesn't mean you have to be stoned off your ass all day.

You don't even have to take up smoking. There are cookies, brownies, pizza, soda, hard candy, suckers, tincture (like a honey that you can put into drinks), and countless other ways to "take your medicine." If you are only medicating for pain, and aren't just getting blasted for the hell of it, there is zero reason why anyone should suspect that you are "under the influence." If I were a cop, I'd be a member of L.E.A.P.

[275RLTW]

If you have a MM card, then you are not an unlawful user. Correct?


I have had this conversation with what I would consider a respected FFL. From what he has been told, it's best to answer #8 as a no. Not sure how the MM card and CCW card will mix in the state.

WRONG. According to ATF, (and confirmed with local SO yesterday) they refer to the FEDERAL definition of unlawful user. That means if you use marijuana, card or not, you are an unlawful user. If you falsely answer "No" to question #8 and the date on the form is after the date of a marijuana prescription, now there is a papertrail to convict you of perjury (felony). Don't do it. I've talked with CBI about this and they are aware of this and currently working to create a database of MM pescription holders for their records (good luck passing a BG check then).

[275RLTW]

I know plenty of people with MMJ cards. I even know people who take only one hit at a time, not even every day. So just because you have an MMJ card, doesn't mean you have to be stoned off your ass all day.

Not everyone over 21 is drunk all the time either, but if you are out between 2-4 am, what do LE presume when they pull someone over? MM is still viewed by a majority of the LE comunnity as a way for unemployed hippies to sell to all of their friends. Yes, we probally all agree that there is a legitimate medical use for MM however the majority of people are seen as abusing this for non-medical purposes. The "one bad apple" theory...

[BadShot]

So the crux here is that you need to talk to a lawyer, though my strongest recommendation is to just not do it. There are many other treatment options that you should pursue first.

[iamhunter]

Don't necessarily support MM,

but it is funny that most prescription pain meds are much more damaging and have more potential for abuse that Marijuana.

I wouldn't touch Oxycontin, Vicodin, Percocet, etc. to save my life.

Seriously, last time my doc tried to give me that stuff I told him to shove it.

I would rather deal with the pain then mess with that stuff.

[BigBear]

I would rather deal with the pain then mess with that stuff.

I don't nessecarily support the stuff either...

However, on the topic of pain.

There are different levels of pain and I do believe that a lot of pain is bareable and people over play it (i.e. I stubbed my toe so I need a yearly prescription of Morphine shots). However, there are a select few people with horribly painful injuries and the medication does help them still be functional and get through those 6 months or however long to heal..

I should know. I garuntee I had more injuries than ANYONE on this board and I'm not even 30 yet. And I sustained them ALL at the same time. I do not think I would have survived save for medication.

[BPTactical]

I have thought about this and even asked my attorney his thoughts.-Here is what he put forth but not verbatim:
1- The Colorado MMJ permit is NOT a prescription, but rather a "reccomendation" from a Doctor.
Therefore it holds very little legal weight. How this would be viewed in a court of law regarding "Unlawful use" as defined by Federal law remains unclear.
2- The descrepancy of State vs Federal law. This is the grey area. As others have noted, firearm laws are Federally controlled and in an absolute black/white scenario MJ is illegal under Federal law. This trumps state law.
3- Access to State database by law enforcement. As this is a medical record it is protected under the HIPPA act. Records protected under the HIPPA act are only accessible by supeona and only when there is reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed. I have heard that law enforcement can confirm that the person in question is a lawfull holder of a MMJ permit but whether that is true I am not sure.
4- Eric Holder sent out a memo to federal prosecutors a while back that stated it would be a poor use of federal funds to prosecute MMJ permit holders that were in "Clear and unambigous compliance" with state laws concerning MMJ.



Typically, when any of the following characteristics is present, the conduct will not be in clear and unambiguous compliance with applicable state law and may indicate illegal drug trafficking activity of potential federal interest:

unlawful possession or unlawful use of firearms;
violence;
sales to minors;
financial and marketing activities inconsistent with the terms, conditions, or purposes of state law, including evidence of money laundering activity and/or financial gains or excessive amounts of cash inconsistent with purported compliance with state or local law;
amounts of marijuana inconsistent with purported compliance with state or local law;
illegal possession or sale of other controlled substances; or
ties to other criminal enterprises.



Clear as mud right?

Probably not worth the risk overall.......

[BPTactical]

I have thought about this and even asked my attorney his thoughts.-Here is what he put forth but not verbatim:
1- The Colorado MMJ permit is NOT a prescription, but rather a "reccomendation" from a Doctor.
Therefore it holds very little legal weight. How this would be viewed in a court of law regarding "Unlawful use" as defined by Federal law remains unclear.
2- The descrepancy of State vs Federal law. This is the grey area. As others have noted, firearm laws are Federally controlled and in an absolute black/white scenario MJ is illegal under Federal law. This trumps state law.
3- Access to State database by law enforcement. As this is a medical record it is protected under the HIPPA act. Records protected under the HIPPA act are only accessible by supeona and only when there is reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed. I have heard that law enforcement can confirm that the person in question is a lawfull holder of a MMJ permit but whether that is true I am not sure.
4- David Ogden sent out a memo to federal prosecutors a while back that stated it would be a poor use of federal funds to prosecute MMJ permit holders that were in "Clear and unambigous compliance" with state laws concerning MMJ.




October 19,2009

MEMORANDUM FOR SELECTED UNITED STATES ATTORNEYS
FROM: David W. Ogden, Deputy Attorney General
SUBJECT: Investigations and Prosecutions in States Authorizing the Medical Use of Marijuana
This memorandum provides clarification and guidance to federal prosecutors in States that have enacted laws authorizing the medical use of marijuana. These laws vary in their substantive provisions and in the extent of state regulatory oversight, both among the enacting States and among local jurisdictions within those States. Rather than developing different guidelines for every possible variant of state and local law, this memorandum provides uniform guidance to focus federal investigations and prosecutions in these States on core federal enforcement priorities.
The Department of Justice is committed to the enforcement of the Controlled Substances Act in all States. Congress has determined that marijuana is a dangerous drug, and the illegal distribution and sale of marijuana is a serious crime and provides a significant source of revenue to large-scale criminal enterprises, gangs, and cartels. One timely example underscores the importance of our efforts to prosecute significant marijuana traffickers: marijuana distribution in the United States remains the single largest source of revenue for the Mexican cartels.
The Department is also committed to making efficient and rational use of its limited investigative and prosecutorial resources. In general, United States Attorneys are vested with “plenary authority with regard to federal criminal matters” within their districts. USAM 9-2.001. In exercising this authority, United States Attorneys are “invested by statute and delegation from the Attorney General with the broadest discretion in the exercise of such authority.” Id. This authority should, of course, be exercised consistent with Department priorities and guidance.
The prosecution of significant traffickers of illegal drugs, including marijuana, and the disruption of illegal drug manufacturing and trafficking networks continues to be a core priority in the Department’s efforts against narcotics and dangerous drugs, and the Department’s investigative and prosecutorial resources should be directed towards these objectives. As a general matter, pursuit of these priorities should not focus federal resources in your States on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana. For example, prosecution of individuals with cancer or other serious illnesses who use marijuana as part of a recommended treatment regimen consistent with applicable state law, or those caregivers in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state law who provide such individuals with marijuana, is unlikely to be an efficient use of limited federal resources. On the other hand, prosecution of commercial enterprises that unlawfully market and sell marijuana for profit continues to be an enforcement priority of the Department. To be sure, claims of compliance with state or local law may mask operations inconsistent with the terms, conditions, or purposes of those laws, and federal law enforcement should not be deterred by such assertions when otherwise pursuing the Department’s core enforcement priorities.
Typically, when any of the following characteristics is present, the conduct will not be in clear and unambiguous compliance with applicable state law and may indicate illegal drug trafficking activity of potential federal interest:

unlawful possession or unlawful use of firearms;
violence;
sales to minors;
financial and marketing activities inconsistent with the terms, conditions, or purposes of state law, including evidence of money laundering activity and/or financial gains or excessive amounts of cash inconsistent with purported compliance with state or local law;
amounts of marijuana inconsistent with purported compliance with state or local law;
illegal possession or sale of other controlled substances; or
ties to other criminal enterprises.
Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted. Accordingly, in prosecutions under the Controlled Substances Act, federal prosecutors are not expected to charge, prove, or otherwise establish any state law violations. Indeed, this memorandum does not alter in any way the Department’s authority to enforce federal law, including laws prohibiting the manufacture, production, distribution, possession, or use of marijuana on federal property. This guidance regarding resource allocation does not “legalize” marijuana or provide a legal defense to a violation of federal law, nor is it intended to create any privileges, benefits, or rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable by any individual, party or witness in any administrative, civil, or criminal matter. Nor does clear and unambiguous compliance with state law or the absence of one or all of the above factors create a legal defense to a violation of the Controlled Substances Act. Rather, this memorandum is intended solely as a guide to the exercise of investigative and prosecutorial discretion.
Finally, nothing herein precludes investigation or prosecution where there is a reasonable basis to believe that compliance with state law is being invoked as a pretext for the production or distribution of marijuana for purposes not authorized by state law. Nor does this guidance preclude investigation or prosecution, even when there is clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state law, in particular circumstances where investigation or prosecution otherwise serves important federal interests.
Your offices should continue to review marijuana cases for prosecution on a case-by-case basis, consistent with the guidance on resource allocation and federal priorities set forth herein, the consideration of requests for federal assistance from state and local law enforcement authorities, and the Principles of Federal Prosecution.
cc: All United States Attorneys
Lanny A. Breuer
Assistant Attorney General Criminal Division
B. Todd Jones
United States Attorney
District of Minnesota
Chair, Attorney General’s Advisory Committee
Michele M. Leonhart
Acting Administrator
Drug Enforcement Administration

H. Marshall Jarrett
Director
Executive Office for United States Attorneys
Kevin L. Perkins
Assistant Director
Criminal Investigative Division
Federal Bureau of Investigation







Clear as mud right?


Probably not worth the risk overall.......

[sniper7]

not worth the risk.

do you value your gun rights and right to self defense?

can you take other medications/medicines that would work close to as well, but still be legal?

until there is further clarification I would highly recommend against the idea, the DOW says you can't hunt while under the influence or drugs and alcohol.

Also imagine the scenario that you had to shoot someone after you recently smoked a J to ease the pain, they take you in, you get blood work done, during the trial or court hearing or whatever takes place after and incident (if one takes place), the judge sees you were under the influence of MJ while the self defense shooting took place...he now has to question whether that was a factor and if your mindset was correct when you pulled the trigger....depending on the judge it would go either way.

[Bailey Guns]

Also I was thinking about opening a Gun Shop/Liquer Store/Marajuana Dispensery. One stop shopping,you would have to have the proper ID. I have to look up the zoning laws first. Wish me luck. And yes we would take food stamps

When I had my store in Bailey it was adjacent to a liquor store. We had a big sign on top of the bldg:


"Alcohol - Tobacco - Firearms"


Now, there's a "dispensary" in my old store called "Sunshine Solutions" or something similar. I think that's pretty funny.

[Coffee]

[Bailey Guns]

Personally, I have some thoughts on the topic. Question 11e on the 4473 reads:
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

If you've ever used a controlled substance unlawfully does that make you an unlawful user? Is there a time limit?

A hypothetical example:
My wife has a prescription for 800mg Motrin tablets. Not real high on the list of abused drugs but a prescription (and a controlled substance) nonetheless. I go to the medicine cabinet for some Motrin for pain control...we have lots of 200mg tablets and I take 4 of them. 800mgs. Nothing wrong with that (aside from possible liver damage).

Next time I need some Motrin for pain we happen to be in the car and I don't have access to the 200mg tablets. However, she has an 800mg tablet in a small baggie in her purse. She gives it to me and I take it in lieu of 4 of the 200mg tablets.

This happens to be on the way to the gunshop where I intend on purchasing a gun. I select the gun, complete the 4473 answering "No" to question 11e. I pass the background check.

How many felonies have I (and/or my wife) committed in this hypothetical scenario? Is anyone really going to care?

(A bigger question, what fantasy world am I living in where my wife goes to a gunshop with me?)

Frankly, I'm really not for or against the MMJ thing as I believe there are far worse things going on that I need to be concerned about. It does bring up some interesting questions, though...the OP's being one.

What about being in a job where drug testing is required? Let's say a doctor prescribes the stuff to you and you later get tagged in a drug test at work. Is the "prescription" a defense to violating the rules against MJ use?

I think this is a very complicated subject and "yes" or "no" answers aren't always going to work. A lot of issues are going to have to be worked out. As a matter of fact, the Park County Sheriff was just involved in this situation.

A lady was arrested for DUID. She had a prescription for MMJ. Charges were dropped and she wanted her "evidence" back which had been confiscated by the arresting deputy. One thing led to another and now the sheriff is the star of a YouTube video the lady took with a hidden camera. She did get her stuff back.

[brokenscout]

I just turned 35 and theres not much room to go up with the pain pills. I have 5 kids. I tried to "buck up" and stopped taking them,but decided I liked playing with my kids more,or even picking them up. Need something to help. Are there any healthy pain pills?

[Seamonkey]

I don't have a dog in this fight so my rambling isn't worth much but...


SHTF and you shoot and kill " an honor roll student who has never in his life done anything like this before, such a nice kid, such potential" yet there you are savagely gunning him down with out mercy. Never mind his gun or knife or that he was in your house at 0100 and pockets full of drugs and in your kids room... or in the parking lot or what not.

Lets say you only need to medicate every couple days or only when in pain. So say you medicate on Monday, shooting occurs on Thursday. From my understanding you will test positive for cannabis even weeks later. An aggressive lawyer can use that against you to say you were all doped up and shot poor little Timmy. You could get sh^t faced drunk every night and be sober/legal the next day yet medicate once and it's weeks before it clears (I think, not a Dr. so don't know that for a fact on how long it takes THC to clear the system)

Any non lethal options? Tasers, mace, tear gas... cattle prod? Railroad spikes? Can your spouse carry for the two of you?

Don't know man, sucks to have to choose between being able to protect yourself and your family or (IMO) a silly and outdated prohibition law.

[Mad]

[Irving]

There are some synthetic, and legal, products around that are supposed to mimic the high of THC. I don't know anything about them though, and would strongly suspect that they are made for people who just want to get blazed up. Meaning that you can go to a dispensary and (if you choose a good one), they will ask you about your symptoms and suggest certain strains that will meet your needs. There are some really great dispensaries around that do just that, however, there are even more places that are just set up to sell pot. You walk in, they take you in the back and say, "So what do you want?" They don't ask about symptoms, don't tell you what anything does. They give the better dispensaries a bad name.

[brokenscout]

To much grey area,
http://www.rmgo.org/faq/#MMJ

[omio]

Why would you pay for a license to smoke a tree in the first place?

[BigBear]

Why would you pay for a license to smoke a tree in the first place?


So you don't pay MUCH, MUCH more fot tickets, court costs, attorney costs, felony warrants, bonds, etc ad nauseum.

How do you like your rights now? lol.

[Irving]

Marijuana is so low on the totem pole for law enforcement. If you get pulled over with pot now, they just take it and let you go.

[omio]

So you don't pay MUCH, MUCH more fot tickets, court costs, attorney costs, felony warrants, bonds, etc ad nauseum.

How do you like your rights now? lol.

Sounds like extortion...

[BigBear]

Sounds like extortion...

HAHAHA!!! Winner! [Beer]