View Full Version : FTF sale terms
DD977GM2
07-29-2010, 21:17
Why is there a rash of super duper extra crap tp do for a sale or trade of firearms.
Folks wanting bill of sales and even down to going through a local FFL if you dont have a CCW permit.
I didnt want to shit on a guys thread, but when I see that shit, doesnt matter how great of a deal whatever is for sale or trade, I wouldnt do business with them.
Am I the only one who has noticed this increase in liberal douchebaggery?
Byte Stryke
07-29-2010, 21:20
I Seen it...
Saw a guy once asking for CCW for a Rifle sale.
wound up being an error... but yeah, Proof of residency would be good enough for me.
I guess it would also help if the Picture on the ID Looked like you :P
KIDDING
pickenup
07-29-2010, 21:23
You are not the only one.
I have passed on deals that I might have gotten because of their "requirements"
Their choice to put whatever stipulations they want on their sale.
MY choice to pass, because of them.
The CCW intrigues me. The Colo ID and a bill of sale should be plenty...
I figure it's their property and choice, but they should be aware that will shoe away some business. The one I can't stand is "will transfer at an FFL with check"
If I wanted a gun from a store that's what I would've done in the first place...
It seems like the only time you ever see it is with Newbies. My guess is they're trying to sell their gun and aren't familiar or comfortable with the laws and are trying to play it safe.
H.
I'm with you.
Why is there a rash of super duper extra crap tp do for a sale or trade of firearms.
Folks wanting bill of sales and even down to going through a local FFL if you dont have a CCW permit.
I didnt want to shit on a guys thread, but when I see that shit, doesnt matter how great of a deal whatever is for sale or trade, I wouldnt do business with them.
Am I the only one who has noticed this increase in liberal douchebaggery?
Seems to be a comfort level for people that are new to ftf transactions. I have no problems showing ID, but dont want to sign for stuff because someone (seller) is a little paranoid about me going off the deep end and using their old firearm to do it with. And I guess for guys that aren't new to it or paranoid about it, its just limiting their audience for it and they are ok with that. To each their own, but I'll buy mine from that guy that cares that I am of age, not a felon, and resident. Anything else and I'll just go to the gun store for all that hassle and buy it new.
I know for me the first time I sold a firearm FTF I was all kinds of nerves. I all but wanted a fingerprint check.
Thankfully it was to Bailey Guns (owned a gun store) and I got a good education.
Now I know better, maybe its just guys who are new to it?
Thanks again by the way, and I have almost wrapped up your DNA scan, Bailey![Beer]
Byte Stryke
07-29-2010, 22:27
Seriously we should put a sticky up with a common sense guide to Buying/Selling a gun FTF private party.
Honestly, if I am selling I will do the Obligatory ID Check drivers license/State ID/ CCW or any other form of government ID.
Ask (only) "hey, are you in any way unable to pass a BCI?"
that's all that's required.
Its all good, I'm covered in case its some ass-hat gun grabber making a youtube video or off-the-wall BATF Sting (I have some serious paranoia issues) and nobody is put out.
bill of sale, FFL BCIs Fingerprints, Blood tests, Stool samples... not required by law and not needed thanks.
:D
Seriously we should put a sticky up with a common sense guide to Buying/Selling a gun FTF private party.
Honestly, if I am selling I will do the Obligatory ID Check drivers license/State ID/ CCW or any other form of government ID.
Ask (only) "hey, are you in any way unable to pass a BCI?"
that's all that's required.
Its all good, I'm covered in case its some ass-hat gun grabber making a youtube video or off-the-wall BATF Sting (I have some serious paranoia issues) and nobody is put out.
bill of sale, FFL BCIs Fingerprints, Blood tests, Stool samples... not required by law and not needed thanks.
:D
I see the bill of sale as a CYA kinda thing...
Stool samples
:D
This adds a whole new and very literal level to CYA!
I would really like to see this in court.
"Mr. Evilgunowner, is this your autograph on this bill of sale?"
"Why, no sir, Mr. D.A., I have no idea where that bill of sale came from, and as its not notarized, why is in court at all?!"
"Consicse...well then, Mr. Evilgunowner...How do you explain him having your TURD?!"
As best I can tell, this has to end
"you want the Truth, you can't handle the TRUTH!"
ChunkyMonkey
07-29-2010, 22:36
The CCW intrigues me. The Colo ID and a bill of sale should be plenty...
wow... its the other way around. CO ID or CCW are more than enough.
Stool samples...
:D
[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3] when the hell this thread turn that way? [ROFL2][ROFL2]
wow... its the other way around. CO ID or CCW are more than enough.
your avatars are killing me!! [Tooth]
ChunkyMonkey
07-29-2010, 22:41
your avatars are killing me!! [Tooth]
Sorry.. either that or an animation of myself with my male boobies. [ROFL1]
I see the bill of sale as a CYA kinda thing...
It won't cover your ass at all. I'm of the opinion (but I think I'm the only one) that the more paper work you require, the closer you are to an unlicensed dealer.
I agree with the new people assessment. Another thing to consider, is that for the most part, most regular posters are familiar with most other regular posters, so we're all pretty comfortable with each other. I don't know about you guys, but the first time I join pretty much every web forum, I think everyone is a douche bag for the first couple of months until I get to know people. For instance, I probably wouldn't want to post up a gun for sale on many of the other websites I post on.
Sorry.. either that or an animation of myself with my male boobies. [ROFL1]
Oh man, you don't wanna know what I'm thinking about when I stare at your avatar [ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL1]
theGinsue
07-29-2010, 22:45
bill of sale, FFL BCIs Fingerprints, Blood tests, Stool samples... not required by law and not needed thanks.
:D
Really? Are you sure about this? I've got plenty of stool and urine samples stored up in the freezer should you change your mind.
It won't cover your ass at all. I'm of the opinion (but I think I'm the only one) that the more paper work you require, the closer you are to an unlicensed dealer.
I agree with the new people assessment. Another thing to consider, is that for the most part, most regular posters are familiar with most other regular posters, so we're all pretty comfortable with each other. I don't know about you guys, but the first time I join pretty much every web forum, I think everyone is a douche bag for the first couple of months until I get to know people. For instance, I probably wouldn't want to post up a gun for sale on many of the other websites I post on.
THANK YOU Stuart! I thought I'm the only one who thinks like that.
I think I am gonna end gun adds now with a,
Must be legally able... A proof of sale will be required, but a stool sample will be accepted in place of bill of sale if prefered.
I think I am gonna end gun adds now with a,
Must be legally able... A proof of sale will be required, but a stool sample will be given in place of bill of sale if prefered.
[ROFL1]
theGinsue
07-29-2010, 22:51
THANK YOU Stuart! I thought I'm the only one who thinks like that.
I'll third that.
Your right, your way is far better
I'll third that.
As a hypothetical: I buy a gun new, serial number is traced to my name. I decide to sell, and the guy scams me well enough for me to sell and then uses it to kill someone. I have no paperwork saying I no longer own the gun, the first person they come after is me. I'll take a bill of sale with the serial number and signature. If you have no paperwork, you are asking for trouble.
As a hypothetical: I buy a gun new, serial number is traced to my name. I decide to sell, and the guy scams me well enough for me to sell and then uses it to kill someone. I have no paperwork saying I no longer own the gun, the first person they come after is me. I'll take a bill of sale with the serial number and signature. If you have no paperwork, you are asking for trouble.
You don't need/have to prove your innocence - it's them who need to prove you're guilty. and if you didn't kill anyone how they gonna prove that you did?
theGinsue
07-29-2010, 23:51
As a hypothetical: I buy a gun new, serial number is traced to my name. I decide to sell, and the guy scams me well enough for me to sell and then uses it to kill someone. I have no paperwork saying I no longer own the gun, the first person they come after is me. I'll take a bill of sale with the serial number and signature. If you have no paperwork, you are asking for trouble.
"That BOS (bill of sale) you have is nothing more than a fabrication. It shows pre-meditation to your crime."
Unless you put my contact information on the BOS (which I won't provide for a FTF sale), all you have is a forged signature.
For those of you with any requirements beyond showing Proof of state residency, I certainly expect that you'll be posting your requirements in your sale posts and not ambushing the buyer at the point of sale.
Asking for what trouble? You weren't at the crime scene. Do you even know who was killed? Do you have a motive? Are you supposed to be responsible for the actions of another adult? Would the crime have been prevented had you not sold the gun?
Can you name one case, ever, where someone got into trouble for selling a to someone who later used it to kill someone? I think someone got into trouble after Columbine, but I think that minors were involved.
theGinsue
07-30-2010, 00:00
Plus, the Columbine guns were straw purchases (made by someone legal to purchase the guns with intent to resell to Harris & Klebold), were they not?
If I remember correctly from the book I read about it, two different people, one male and one female, made straw purchases for them and got two radically different sentences.
DD977GM2
07-30-2010, 00:34
I see the bill of sale as a CYA kinda thing...
All you need is the date in which you purchased/traded for said item and the emails which you send back and forth between you and potential buyer/seller/ trader etc is going to hold up in court in the event you use it in a nefarious way.
Its fucking bullshit tinfoil crap and is one reason we have the fucked up laws that are kalifornicating this state on daily basis. Lossen the tinfoil up for fucks sake.
[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]
[B]HOW MANY OF US WITH CCWs WILL EVER USE OUR CCW OR EVEN HOME DEFENSE FIREARM IN A SHTF SCENARIO???????
IF THE GUN WE SOLD OR TRADED WAS USED IN A CRIME< YOU WILL HAVE AN ALIBI ETC AS YOU WERE NOT AT THE CRIME SCENE ETC.
Free market economy, If the seller wants you to stand on your head and sing "itsy,bitsy, spider" it is his/her right to do so.
It is your right to fall to the ground, laughing, and say "no deal."
Then the seller must either change the requirements for sale. Or, not make the sale.
I had few deals who did NOT post Bill of sale or FFL transfer disclosure.
If it is a deal of a century, I will do it.
Heck... If I can get an NIB AI AWSM 338 lapua with S&B scope for $400, I will even submit 2 of my DNA Sample from Human Genome Science, and Genentech! :D
If not, I would rather get it from gunbroker for 60% of cost of what some ridiculus price, and deal with FFL and shipping.
Seamonkey
07-30-2010, 05:10
I would really like to see this in court.
"Mr. Evilgunowner, is this your autograph on this bill of sale?"
"Why, no sir, Mr. D.A., I have no idea where that bill of sale came from, and as its not notarized, why is in court at all?!"
"Consicse...well then, Mr. Evilgunowner...How do you explain him having your TURD?!"
But it's not a turd!! It's Mr. Hanky! The Christmas poo![Toile2]
Bailey Guns
07-30-2010, 06:01
I know for me the first time I sold a firearm FTF I was all kinds of nerves. I all but wanted a fingerprint check.
Thankfully it was to Bailey Guns (owned a gun store) and I got a good education.
Now I know better, maybe its just guys who are new to it?
Thanks again by the way, and I have almost wrapped up your DNA scan, Bailey![Beer]
Heh, heh! [Coffee]
StagLefty
07-30-2010, 07:25
I don't know about you guys, but the first time I join pretty much every web forum, I think everyone is a douche bag for the first couple of months until I get to know people.
WTF !!! And you get to know people on a forum how ? by their typing ? [ROFL1]
[Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang][Bang]
[B]HOW MANY OF US WITH CCWs WILL EVER USE OUR CCW OR EVEN HOME DEFENSE FIREARM IN A SHTF SCENARIO???????
IF THE GUN WE SOLD OR TRADED WAS USED IN A CRIME< YOU WILL HAVE AN ALIBI ETC AS YOU WERE NOT AT THE CRIME SCENE ETC.
Yikes, stop holding back! Now reach over to your left there (no, your other left) and grab that bottle of Prozac - it's on top of that March issue of Mad Magazine - yup you got it....
[ROFL1]
Byte Stryke
07-30-2010, 08:19
I think everyone is a douche bag for the first couple of months until I get to know people.
I'm a Douche even after a couple a months :D
I think that most of the time when people put all of those excessive requirements up that they either don't understand the law or understand how it works and applies to them.
I had a .44 lever action back in the day, like this one (Because everyone loves gun-porn)
http://bsdgames.com/site/album_pic.php?pic_id=283&user_id=9
got bored with it, money got a little tight and I Sold it and a former girlfriend calls me up and tells me the NCSBI (North Carolina) wants to talk to me. Turns out after I Sold it to a gun shop on Bragg Blvd that someone else bought it and it was used in a crime.
I Didn't have a bill of sale!
oh teh noez!
and this is how hard it was.
"Yeah, I Sold that Gun to Big Jim's and I had moved out of state quite a while before that."
"anyone verify that?"
"The Guy that gave me this D/L from Colorado with an issue date"
"Thank you for taking time to talk to us."
Gave them a reason to get out of NC for a while I guess, but yeah, they came up just to talk to me.
your individual results may vary.
I'm a Douche even after a couple a months :D
Yes, but you are OUR douche, that makes the world of difference :).
all right all right, I get it. Justice always prevails and innocent people never go to jail. Jeeze, what was I thinking.
My requirements for FTF:
You have US currency or equivalent trade items, as agreed.
You state that you are a Legal Colorado resident and not restricted from owning a firearm.
You speak and understand the English language.
You don't give me the willies..... [LOL]
No ID, no bill of sale, no bullshit. A man's word is his bond, anything else is superfluous.
Turns out after I Sold it to a gun shop on Bragg Blvd that someone else bought it and it was used in a crime.
What kind of crime? I know crime is bad, but it would be kind of awesome to see someone hold up a 7-11 with one of those!
You don't give me the willies.....What if we got along really, really well?
You don't give me the willies.....
I don't mind the willies, it's those damn heebeegeebees that will stop the deal cold in it's tracks.
[Coffee]
Byte Stryke
07-30-2010, 09:38
all right all right, I get it. Justice always prevails and innocent people never go to jail. Jeeze, what was I thinking.
you were thinking?
I Seriously thought about signing someones BS B.O.S. as "O. Binladen"
[ROFL1]
What kind of crime? I know crime is bad, but it would be kind of awesome to see someone hold up a 7-11 with one of those!
They didn't tell me, and I didn't ask. As I didn't match the description of the guy (They volunteered that)and I had an alibi they went away and I never heard from them again.
CrufflerSteve
07-30-2010, 09:45
I've sold a few recently. The gentlemen I dealt with were not intoxicated or obviously insane. No tinfoil hats or statements that involved crimes. We waved ID's briefly and cash changed hands. If any of these had been different I'd have backed out.
Many years ago I had a co-worker show up at my house. He knew I owned guns. He was completely drunk. Someone had done something bad to him and he wanted to buy a gun from me to deal with this. I refused. He then offered to just rent a gun for a few hours. I refused. He then threatened me and I told him to leave or I'd demonstrate how a gun works. It was awkward seeing him back at work but we dealt with it.
Some years later I was advertising a pistol in the paper and someone called. He wanted to buy it and made a point of mentioning he was from out of state, from an anti-gun state. He repeated this several times. I'm no lawyer but it felt wrong so I declined.
If anything smells wrong don't do it.
Steve
Byte Stryke
07-30-2010, 09:59
I've sold a few recently. The gentlemen I dealt with were not intoxicated or obviously insane. No tinfoil hats or statements that involved crimes. We waved ID's briefly and cash changed hands. If any of these had been different I'd have backed out.
Many years ago I had a co-worker show up at my house. He knew I owned guns. He was completely drunk. Someone had done something bad to him and he wanted to buy a gun from me to deal with this. I refused. He then offered to just rent a gun for a few hours. I refused. He then threatened me and I told him to leave or I'd demonstrate how a gun works. It was awkward seeing him back at work but we dealt with it.
Some years later I was advertising a pistol in the paper and someone called. He wanted to buy it and made a point of mentioning he was from out of state, from an anti-gun state. He repeated this several times. I'm no lawyer but it felt wrong so I declined.
If anything smells wrong don't do it.
Steve
HEY!
Dont be bringing yer fancy-schamcy Common sense and Logic into a gun debate!
There is no room in a gun debate for these kinda things! Ask any Liberal.
[ROFL1]
CrufflerSteve
07-30-2010, 10:19
HEY!
Dont be bringing yer fancy-schamcy Common sense and Logic into a gun debate!
There is no room in a gun debate for these kinda things! Ask any Liberal.
[ROFL1]
Sorry. I'm at work. I've actually been written up for joking too much so I have to be in mortician mode.
Steve
He then offered to just rent a gun for a few hours.
I don't know if the word 'hire' isn't as commonly used for a situation like that in this country, but when we moved to our first house in Florida we were having an energy audit and I was talking to the guy about shooting. At the time all I had was my Glock 19 and the only other gun I had ever fired was my brother-in-law's Beretta so I was keen to try some other guns. I was asking him if there was anywhere nearby that I could hire a gun from, and he honestly thought I was asking if he knew how I could have someone killed :D
I don't know if the word 'hire' isn't as commonly used for a situation like that in this country, but when we moved to our first house in Florida we were having an energy audit and I was talking to the guy about shooting. At the time all I had was my Glock 19 and the only other gun I had ever fired was my brother-in-law's Beretta so I was keen to try some other guns. I was asking him if there was anywhere nearby that I could hire a gun from, and he honestly thought I was asking if he knew how I could have someone killed :D
Yup, that'd be my first thought too :)
ChunkyMonkey
07-30-2010, 10:59
Another thing about having BOS. BATF recently auditted a local pawnshop. They saw my friend who purchased few guns and tried to tracked it down just to investigate a straw purchase accusation. The funny part is they traced his BOS transactions and did not care about the FTF no paper transaction.
Woot!?
Hayes don't feel too targeted or anything. This subject comes up every few months. We all just say the same things to each other, and one or two more people join the majority side.
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/image.php?u=1932&dateline=1280387213
Dude, it's really hard to concentrate on my response with those things... :)
If you dont like the sellers terms, dont buy it.
Kinda like buying a car. You might like the car and want the car, but the dealer wants to screw you on the prep fees and all that nonsense. Its just one of those things.
If you dont like it, find something else to get your blood pressure up over.
SA Friday
07-30-2010, 13:53
I do bills of sales with people I don't know. Referring them to the web site you completed the transaction on gives them probable cause to submit for a search warrant or subpoena and copy that web site's information. No matter how careful the LE agency is, they will see additional information on that site. Conversely, saying I sold it to this guy/gal on this day and did a bill of sale leaves me the the ability to not discuss the site at all. It's not relevant to the investigation anymore. They are simply following the lineage of the firearm, and that question was answered. Conversely, if I was selling a gun to Bear or Hoser or Charlie or Chris or Kelly, etc etc. I wouldn't do a bill of sale as I know them and could still complete the same actions. I keep the BOS in a safe, and they remain there. They are for my records and nobody elses viewing, period.
Additionally, I don't put it past any of the anti's to pull some cctv stunt in a move to try and show FTF sales as blackmarketing of firearms. That's pretty hard to do when a bill of sales is completed and someone's ID is looked at. Unless you are selling very large amounts of firearms, the ATF could not possibly show you are dealing without a license. This issue has come up with gunsmiths within the last couple of years, and I can't remember the quantities they were discussing, but I remember thinking there was very very little chance of anyone selling that amount of firearms FTF in a year, not even eerw [Tooth].
Lastly, there multiple scenarios where I could see the BOS protecting ME and quite possibly the purchaser. I sell it, someone steals it from the purchaser and then uses it in a crime and leaves it at the scene. Purchaser's FP's are on it, no discernable description of the bad-guy. Purchaser is now on the hook, and trying to explain when he bought the gun (and didn't steal it himself) and who from. "Uh, I can't remember." sucks big time in the hot seat. That's why I do a BOS copy. It's simply a record. No signatures required, no elaborate schemes involved...
So, for me its easy. When I sell something, CO ID or CCW and a BOS. If you want the same during my purchase, OK by me. You don't want a BOS and I don't know you, someone else will. I've sold really nice guns at very reasonable prices.
No reason to get your panties in a wad over this. The best part of this thread is the "full disclosure" during advertising. Then, if you don't like the terms, don't purchase. Pretty simple stuff IMO.
Always the calming rational voice....
theGinsue
07-30-2010, 15:53
....I dealt with were not obviously insane.
Oh, so now I'm seeing that you won't sell to me huh?
[ROFL1]
Dude, it's really hard to concentrate on my response with those things... :)
I was thinking the same thing. MB888, are you trying to show all of us the proper way to perform a breast self-examination?
ChunkyMonkey
07-30-2010, 16:02
I was thinking the same thing. MB888, are you trying to show all of us the proper way to perform a breast self-examination?
What? hang on... I am watching the movie on my avatar. I ll get back to you once its over.
Byte Stryke
07-30-2010, 16:17
you know its kinda funny if you put Ginsues Avatar with MB888s
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/image.php?u=1932&dateline=1280387213_________________http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/image.php?u=1222&dateline=1278220226
Kinda fits
:D
I first thought BOS was important, because my first FTF transction had BOS.
Around 1997, the seller actually offered if I wanted.
I didnt know too much.
If you really think having a BOS is important, at least have the darn paperwork all ready prior to meeting. There are tons of similar to same firearm out there.
Some seller actuallyl takes 10-15minutes to do BOS on site. Remember, if we are meeting during lunch hour, I can actually be late to work.
Where is the that old FS post with "no baggy pants"
[ROFL3]
Great-Kazoo
07-30-2010, 22:35
Cash is king all others don't call.
if a BOS really makes you feel better about a sale, do it. myself i would pass on any transaction other than with a FFL that requires ID, DNA, urine & stool samples.
there is a reason private sales are called PRIVATE.!
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