View Full Version : Carry With Reloaded Ammo
claimbuster
08-06-2010, 13:53
One noted author, gun writer, advises strongly against using reloads when you are carrying. His concern is a liability issue. In the event you have to resort to the "gravest extreme", he contends you may have to explain your special hollow points, ++P loads, etc, etc to the authorities and maybe even a judge.
I understand where he is coming from; however, I sure like to carry the load that I have dialed in for my carry gun, the load that I can afford to shoot a lot, etc.
Good factory loaded personal defense ammo is close to $1 per round and that precludes me from going out and shooting 50-75 rounds every month. Also, I am not in favor of practicing with one load and then stuffing something different in the gun when I put it back into the holster.
What are your thoughts?
SA Friday
08-06-2010, 14:06
Load your practice reloads to have the same feel as your commercially produced carry loads.
Chrono the commercial defense load then multiply the velocity by the bullet weight and divide by 1000. This will equal a fair proximity of the ammo's momentum, thus it's recoil. Then work a reload to the same momentum (with the same bullet weight, preferrably). In most modern pistols, the impact point should be pretty much the same too. If it isn't, try a different bullet or powder. I would try a different powder first, then the bullet if necessary.
Ya, it takes some work, but not as much as you might think unless you run into som serious snag along the way.
Realistically, how are they going to tell the difference if you've actually killed anyone? Isn't the bullet going to be pretty deformed and the powder all gone? Whose to say you weren't shooting really soft competition loads?
They will demonize you for ANYTHING they can to a jury, that's their job. Why take the risk for $20? One case I read the prosecutor ranted and raved about the fact that the shooter (found not guilty due to self defense) had loaded a mag fully, chambered a round, then removed the mag, topped it off and put it back in. The shooting involved a man with a weapon screaming that he was going to kill him in front of witnesses, he was shot once COM and lived to testify in DEFENSE OF THE SHOOTER. Saying that he was out of line and intended to harm the shooter.
Cops, judges and prosecuting attorneys are not your fucking friends! Shut up and don't give them an inch or they'll run you into the ground with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Test the ammo in your gun, then use what's cheap to practice with. When running defensive ammo and in a situation involving adrenaline you won't notice a bit of difference.
The rounds you haven't fired will be collected along with the spent casings and everything else.
The rounds you haven't fired will be collected along with the spent casings and everything else.
That pretty much answers the question.
I've never been in court, but it seems like if your bullet type is enough to tip the case to you going to jail, then there was probably more going on. Crazy stuff happens though, like the whole Albert Fish story.
DeusExMachina
08-06-2010, 18:39
That pretty much answers the question.
I've never been in court, but it seems like if your bullet type is enough to tip the case to you going to jail, then there was probably more going on. Crazy stuff happens though, like the whole Albert Fish story.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish
?
trlcavscout
08-06-2010, 19:38
I only carry factory ammo and stock guns. Don't give them anything! Nothing that gives me an edge other then training, common sense, and a hatred for people trying to take my shit or hurt my family.
I thought his name was Albert Fish. The guy that was crucified on the stand for using a 10mm to kill a guy while he was hiking.
Daniel_187
08-06-2010, 21:07
Just dump the all the ammo into the asshat. how would they know?
claimbuster
08-06-2010, 22:03
Followed several posts on this and I have come to believe that what is most important is to have a load that I can shoot consistently well. Everything else becomes irrelevant should I need it.
Followed several posts on this and I have come to believe that what is most important is to have a load that I can shoot consistently well. Everything else becomes irrelevant should I need it.
That's pretty much how I feel, but I have zero experience with courts or the system. I have zero money for a good attorney and would pretty much be boned no matter what.
Seamonkey
08-07-2010, 01:44
I only carry factory ammo and stock guns. Don't give them anything! Nothing that gives me an edge other then training, common sense, and a hatred for people trying to take my shit or hurt my family.
+1
I'm a back seat driver on this subject so only speaking from theory/what I've read and I hope I am never ever forced to use deadly force. On that note...
A lawyer can use anything against you. If you have a "hot" load then you're a savage beast who's only goal is to kill and main poor little Timmy. If you have trigger work done then you're a dangerous killer since you are ready to kill a poor innocent person who was only asking for change. Even with training they will use stuff like you have the skills to only wound but instead you purposely killed little Timmy.
Look at how the media and some lawyers crucify police officers who are forced into a justified shooting situation.
I've always read to use the caliber your local police uses and the civilian equivalent of their ammo on a stock gun, but again, that's from magazines and reading around, nothing based on legal case studies. And use your right to remain silent.
and now I shall return to my shopping for some more bling to put on my tacticool urban commando uniform...
also keep in mind that part of the cost of that defensive ammo is for the maker's lawyer bills.
I use doubletap ammo in all my daily carry and nightstand weapons, reload spec's, that come from the factory. you get the best of both worlds.
http://www.doubletapammo.com
I had a little trouble with DT ammo.
160gr Barnes XPB +P, bought 2 boxes and both boxes had couple of rounds that malfunctioned (failure to go to battery) in otherwise reliable STI Elektra. Those rounds looked little weird, tried to put them to EGW case gauge = no go :(
Also found 2 others that did not go to case gauge straight from the box. If you use those, I would recommend to check the ammo with case gauge or your pistols barrel.
My DT ammo was +P, but it had exactly the same MV than Cor-Bon DPX loaded with the same bullet but non+P.
I've also seen a few quality control issues with DT ammo.
I use cor bon, i switched after shooting it at night side by side with federal hydroshock and rangers. Very little muzzle flash with the cor bons.
clublights
08-09-2010, 20:19
I thought his name was Albert Fish. The guy that was crucified on the stand for using a 10mm to kill a guy while he was hiking.
Harold Fish is the man your talkin about
http://defensivehandgun.blogspot.com/2009/07/reasonable-fear-self-defense-and.html
gnihcraes
08-09-2010, 20:29
I thought they were factory loads? I bought them at the gunshow in a nice box, paid top dollar too.
ChadAmberg
08-10-2010, 09:21
There's something going on now in Maryland where an off duty federal "security guard" of some type was in a dog park, and was attacked by a husky, and proceeded to shoot the dog with his off duty sidearm.
From appearances, the guy who shot the dog was completely in the wrong.
The reporter who covered the story goes on and on about hydro-shok bullets, and how they're meant to expand and how cruel that is, blah blah blah.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/features/mutts/blog/2010/08/the_bullet_used_to_kill_bearbe.html
Here's a choice quote:
When the officer went to the dog park, he had with him his personal 9 mm Glock. And he'd loaded it with Hydrashock bullets.
Having no idea what Hydrashock bullets are, I spent the morning researching. ... And basically, the officer came to the park with a gun loaded with what gun advocates consider to be one of the best bullets for "stopping power."
And by stopping power, they mean killing. Hydrashock bullets are extremely effective at killing.
These bullets are such good killers because they expand on impact. They're not meant to enter a body with a small hole. They're meant to rip into the body and expand, creating a larger wound than ordinary, hard ammunition.
Hunters carry them when they want to take down large game. People who buy them for self-defense do so because they want reliability.
When this bullet entered Bear-Bear, it looks like he never stood a chance. And the shooter probably knew this.
Her responses in the comments just cement her complete inability to figure out whats going on, even when given very plain explanations as to why you don't want to use FMJ bullets in a self defense gun, because apparently there are school children standing behind every bad guy.
I don't understand this mentality about being civilized and thinking that just wounding a criminal will make them stop and realize the errors of their ways, etc....
When I shoot something, I want it dead. I shoot to kill. If it comes to the point where I'm pulling out a firearm, someone or something is going home in a bodybag.
God, this crap upsets me. /Sarcasm Thanks for posting that Chad /sarcasm.
I carry a .45, loaded with 230gr. Speer Gold Dot bullets that I loaded myself. Made 'em just as hot as the books would recommend. And I used Speer chrome plated cases. Good enough for me.
e2cTrainer
08-10-2010, 21:04
Use something your confident in, if you've shot thousands of your reloads and seen similar results as factory ammo you should know your doing something right[Beer]
Glock Shooter
08-11-2010, 08:19
My instructor gave quite a talk about ammo.
His suggestions were as follows;
CALL LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT - carry the same ammo they carry, you can never be labeled as a 'wingnut' looking to kill if you carry cop ammo.
NEVER CARRY RELOADS-reloads may fail 1 in 10,000 but commercial reputable ammo may fail 1 in 1,000,000
AMMO YOU CARRY IN YOUR FIREARM OR IN YOUR MAGAZINES - rotate this ammo every 3 to 6 months and use it to practice. While he admits he doesn't feel it will "go bad" he does feel that the cleaning products, solvents, etc we use to clean our firearms 'may' contaminate the cartridges.
Personally, I trust my own reloads more than I trust ammo mass-produced by non-human machines. Machines cranking out rounds by the millions just can't possibly be as consistent as a human doing it one at a time with scales, books, etc.
Personally, I trust my own reloads more than I trust ammo mass-produced by non-human machines. Machines cranking out rounds by the millions just can't possibly be as consistent as a human doing it one at a time with scales, books, etc.
Don't know Ron... I understand what you're saying, but with todays technology, you'd be surprised. If those machines were setup/programmed to produce a less than 1 millionth variance, they could do it. However, "just good enough" seems to be the standard today since people want quantity over quality.
DeusExMachina
08-11-2010, 11:16
They cost millions of dollars to be more precise than a human.
Touche, but they can also put out a million more rounds that precise than a human... so the cost could be justified.
claimbuster
08-21-2010, 22:40
Well, I think I started this goofy thread, so I'll tell you where I'm at right now.
I decided the load I want is the one that I can shoot well and depend on, irrespective if it is is factory or home brew.
As it turns out, a home brew of a 230 gr. Hornady XTP HP and Unique are working well for me.
My thoughts are, if I should ever have to use it, I'd rather have to testify in my defense in a court room than have my brother-in-law deliver my eulogy in a church.
[Weight]
DD977GM2
08-25-2010, 01:06
Like others have said. Is a $20 box of factory ammo really that big of a deal when you could be in prison for the rest of your life. LEO, JUdges and DAs are not your friend. Dont give them an inch and honestly, buy 200 rounds of the ammo you will be carrying, shoot half of it to get used to it and then use the rest to rotate your ammo in your mags.
FWIW I carry golden sabre 45ACP and WWB JHP 40 S&W in my CCW pistols.
I prcatice with them and save my money up for the 200 round "practice"
DD977GM2
08-25-2010, 01:07
Also, it is very unlikey you will get in a shooting in self defense.
One noted author, gun writer, advises strongly against using reloads when you are carrying. His concern is a liability issue. In the event you have to resort to the "gravest extreme", he contends you may have to explain your special hollow points, ++P loads, etc, etc to the authorities and maybe even a judge.
I understand where he is coming from; however, I sure like to carry the load that I have dialed in for my carry gun, the load that I can afford to shoot a lot, etc.
Good factory loaded personal defense ammo is close to $1 per round and that precludes me from going out and shooting 50-75 rounds every month. Also, I am not in favor of practicing with one load and then stuffing something different in the gun when I put it back into the holster.
What are your thoughts?
This "noted author" has made some outright silly statements about "over-penetration" (bullet went through the bad guy's _wrist_ and hit a good guy) and tried to claim that the conviction of a paranoid wacko who opened fire with no legal justification was due to said wacko's use of an "assault rifle" SKS rather than the unjustified resort to deadly force...
This "noted author" also sells high-end self-defense ammo (Cor-Bon) but I'm sure that has nothing to do with his claims...
If---and it's a huge "if"---they're trying to claim that handloads are an issue, then it's obvious that they have no real case.
Realistically, using handloads for self-defense is a legal non-issue. The "noted author" can't cite a case where it's been an issue.
Are there good reasons to use handloads? Certainly. Using the same load for carry that you use for training is a very good one. Reliability is another. In several decades of handloading, I've had a single handload fail to function, and that was a round loaded on borrowed equipment, late at night before a match. I've had factory and issued ammunition fail on more than one occasion: dead primers, improperly seated (as in _sideways_) primers, missing powder charges... Defects that could not only cause a malfunction but could put a weapon out of service entirely.
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