Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47 [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

OgenRwot

09-07-2010, 19:40

Well, I'm not gonna waste my time commenting on an article that already has 400 comments. It won't make a difference. Anyhow, he's going to have a hard time getting out of this one. I just moved up here from Arizona and they have GREAT gun laws...or lack there of. Even if he did that down there he would probably get a ticket for discharging a firearm within city limits. Verbal threats don't really go that far when it comes to claiming "self defense". Here in Colorado, as well as AZ you must be in fear of serious bodily injury or death. He may have been in fear, but having "20 guys" (also have to prove that there were really 20 there) yell at you doesn't quite break the threshold of deadly force. Now, if they were on his property, especially in a "castle doctrine" state, you would have a better chance. New York doesn't have a "castle doctrine" law, just a self defense statute. It's pretty gray on what you can and can't do. Judging from the article alone, and I'm sure there's more to the story, I say this guy made a mistake and in my opinion this was a bad shoot.

MrPrena

09-07-2010, 19:43

Initial non-lethal/less lethal option would've been great on this case.

Hitman 6

09-07-2010, 19:47

Judging from the article alone, and I'm sure there's more to the story, I say this guy made a mistake and in my opinion this was a bad shoot.

+1, like when he said "you know, can you please leave". Yeah I'm sure thats exactly what happened.[Roll1] Plus IMHO, the fact that this guy had an AK alone during this, and that he "didnt have a criminal record" is really bad for all of us.

Scanker19

09-07-2010, 19:53

Shotspotter? Maybe a good idea but a little to close to us being watched 25 hours a day. Or I'm just paranoid, probably both.

Irving

09-07-2010, 20:04

Shot spotters are the equivalent to paying a blind man to stand on every corner. Worthless product.

Scanker19

09-07-2010, 20:09

I wonder if they get a lot of false alarms? or if they would even know.

68Charger

09-07-2010, 20:35

I'll leave judgement to those that live in a urban area.. "shotspotter" would being going off 100's of times each day in my area, but nobody dies... It's called living within a mile of a firing range.. LOL

With the gang involvement, I'd love to see this guy get off on this, but if you crossed a gang & lived in the city, I'm not sure this would help... exile in another state would probably be your only hope... I've seen gangs at work in Phoenix...

Around here, not only would it have not gotten to this point- but I'm not sure it would even get any attention if it did...

but his or someone else's life would have to be in danger for discharge to be justified there... I just don't need any justification for "shooting" where I live... as long as I'm not shooting AT anyone

Somebody will probably take issue with this- PM me, and I'll send you a Google maps coordinates of where I'm at, and maybe that'll put things in perspective...

Zundfolge

09-07-2010, 21:34

You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.

So apparently in New York 20+ gangbangers doesn't qualify as Disparity of Force?

KevDen2005

09-07-2010, 23:00

Shotspotter? Maybe a good idea but a little to close to us being watched 25 hours a day. Or I'm just paranoid, probably both.

I have buddies that work in DC Metro PD. Certain districts in the District have them. I certainly wouldn't worry about that technology being used as a big brother tool. In fact lots of things set them off, such as train whistles, car backfires, etc. They usually get verified first...and not to mention if you live in a jurisdiction that uses them (and is willing to pay for such technology) then believe me, you live in a bad neighborhood

Elhuero

09-08-2010, 02:52

Bad arrest.

Gangs are dangerous, but the real villain here are the bad gun laws and the broken legal system that criminalizes self defense.

OneGuy67

09-08-2010, 09:13

I agree with OgenRwot in it being a bad shoot. While we have a semblance of the "castle doctrine" here in Colorado, it deals solely with the interior of the residence and being in fear of your life or the lives of your family. On the porch, on the grass, on the street in front of the house doesn't cut it. Preempting a supposed attack doesn't cut it, the supposed 'Bernie Goetz' defense.

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 09:21

ChunkyMonkey

09-08-2010, 09:29

I am surely glad I took Jim's CCW class. He taught plenty on how to respond to police's questions in case you have to defend yourself. [Tooth] /end advertisement

OneGuy67

09-08-2010, 09:56

In your yard, and on your property has been successfully defended in court in CO. One case even where the dead perp had NO weapon.

And it has also been successfully charged and convicted on as it is not an established "castle doctrine" defense. Which side do you want to fall on?

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 10:03

We don't live in the City so guess the rule is interpreted differently.

OneGuy67

09-08-2010, 10:12

I can tell you from my personal experience that some of the rural law enforcement agencies will not pursue criminal charges where others would, given the local needs and experiences.

One of my experiences deals with a previously convicted felon in possession of a firearm (two actually) and the local rural sheriff wasn't interested in pursuing the charge due to a number of reasons. The charges were filed by a different agency and is still being mulled over by the local DA for the last 6 weeks as we speak.

This type of situation and charge would not have an eye batted at it by agencies and DA's in the metro areas and this felon would be on his way back to prison for the parole violation and new conviction.

Zundfolge

09-08-2010, 10:43

I seriously doubt that anyone here in Colorado would go to jail for firing a couple warning shots into the ground when their home is surrounded by 20+ gang members shouting death threats.

Ranger

09-08-2010, 10:48

This is the type of guy that probably shouldn't have a firearm. He's so shaken by suspicious people lurking around that he shoots a warning shot to send them away? Get the gun, keep it handy and if the guys threaten you with your life then you think about grabbing a gun. These guys probably would have left him alone if he didn't confront them, but now they won't EVER leave him alone. Stupid move and he deserved to get busted.

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 10:48

I seriously doubt that anyone here in Colorado would go to jail for firing a couple warning shots into the ground when their home is surrounded by 20+ gang members shouting death threats.

Maybe in Denver, Arvada, Aurora, and after you get your ass beat by the cops.

Irving

09-08-2010, 11:07

Ranger, where do you draw the line on ignoring suspicious people? These weren't across the street in a bar parking lot, yelling at everyone. They were in his front yard, specifically threatening him.

Personally, I would have shot into the ground. That is just a waste of ammo and not defensible in court. If you are going to pull the trigger on a gun, it is to save your life. There is no such thing as a warning shot.

sniper7

09-08-2010, 11:14

Since it wasn't my ass in the situation...it is a shame that he didn't take down all 20 gang members. I would much rather read that story then a guy going to jail for shooting some holes in his yard

Irving

09-08-2010, 11:28

Since it wasn't my ass in the situation...it is a shame that he didn't take down all 20 gang members. I would much rather read that story then a guy going to jail for shooting some holes in his yard

This.

My favorite story is of the gang banger that fell out the window to his death because his pants fell down and he tripped. Oops.

BigBear

09-08-2010, 11:35

This.

My favorite story is of the gang banger that fell out the window to his death because his pants fell down and he tripped. Oops.

HAHA, I haven't heard that one Stu. There was a story about a shooting in South Carolina about 3 months ago. Apparently some guy went into a coffee shop carrying without a holster in his baggy pants, the gun fell through the pants and discharged when it hit the ground... there were 3 cops and one of them shot the guy on reflex. (Yes the cop was suspended or whatever).

I'll have to see if I can't find that link. I'm pretty sure it happened in South Carolina...

68Charger

09-08-2010, 11:38

I guess he didn't feel like doing a "Gran Torino"

None of us were there, and I doubt we're getting the whole story of what lead up to this... but I agree that waiting in the house would probably be better than firing shots in the yard- if you're going to shoot, it's with deadly force- because that's what's called for in the situation- until then, it's not pointed at anyone.

My gut says that by the time you have that many gang members on your lawn threatening you, your life is already in some serious danger- they'll get you eventually if you don't find some way to get off their $#!+ list, or bug out of town.
It is a shame he's going to jail for just illegally aerating his lawn [Coffee]

Gritty

09-08-2010, 12:07

He made three mistakes by presenting a firearm without intending to directly use it, by entering into a verbal confrontation while holding the firearm, and by discharging the firearm to fire "warning shots."

He has a lot of explaining to do just based on those mistakes, and his case could very well be filed under reckless endangerment.

Next time he should:

Keep himself and his weapon out of sight until he actually has a reason to use deadly force.

Take some firearm training classes. He is obviously out of practice and needs to know about the use of force continuum.

Review the four golden rules of firearm safety:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at shadows and/or noises.

Make lots of friends, avoid misunderstandings with gangs, and call 911 next time (a call is easier to justify than shooting at the ground).

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 12:09

I use grenades. You can buy them at any Gun Show.

And true gangs are just misunderstood kids looking for attention and a belonging, they should be dealt with with talk and compassion.

HBARleatherneck

09-08-2010, 12:16

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/14/surveillance-video-captures-teens-beating-year-old-elderly-man/

you arent allowed to protect yourself. read the comment where the cop says the homeowner did the right thing, fleeing his own home. "you have no right to safety in or around your home. bangers can threaten and intimidate you. you must flee" talk about bullshit. and then they still lost.

clearly things would have gone differently for most of us. if I did decide to go to the store to call the police, i would have aerated all the criminals after they started attacking me.

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 12:30

Well my guns have a mind of their own and who knows what they will do if I have to flee.

BigBear

09-08-2010, 12:42

As this "armchair commando" (or whatever the term is now) says: If you an't walk/talk your way out of a fight, you end it permantely to where the other party is either dead or inescapably void of any emotional and physical willing to do you harm, ever again.

Flame suit on: To me, there is no escalating force. There is an immediate and viscious statement of intention. Then SHTF.

Case point: When I was mugged, I was able to descalate by drawing down and holding. If they would've had the jump on me. Either I would be dead and they got a few bucks off me - or they would be dead and I'd be in jail for killing three assholes with a knife. Bottom line: In my way of thinking (whether right or wrong) is that once the line is crossed, the threat will die or it will kill me.

Ranger

09-08-2010, 13:06

Ranger, where do you draw the line on ignoring suspicious people? These weren't across the street in a bar parking lot, yelling at everyone. They were in his front yard, specifically threatening him.

I suppose I wouldn't really know how I would react until it happened to me, but the story sounded like the gun owner provoked these guys. Realizing that I would likely be arrested for waiving a gun around, and particularly for discharging it, I think I would wait until things were a bit more serious than it sounded like in the article.

Frankly, I probably would have called the cops and only worried about ridding the planet of these twats if I felt my life were in danger. Like you said, there is no such thing as a warning shot - especially if there are twenty gang members on your lawn.

sniper7

09-08-2010, 13:14

I use grenades. You can buy them at any Gun Show.

And true gangs are just misunderstood kids looking for attention and a belonging, they should be dealt with with talk and compassion.

I just picked up a rocker launcher and a whole case of rockets! they are soo readily available I can't even believe it!

sniper7

09-08-2010, 13:17

the other aspect people don't see on this side of the story, or they see it and haven't mentioned is the aftermath of the gangs.

Taking out 20 of them would probably be the end of you and your family one way or the other, but now, if the guy gets out they might just do a drive by while he is out on his front lawn.

personally living in that type of fear is no way to live. time to move, and I would have preferred it had this guy taken out all 20 of them, then moved

Ranger

09-08-2010, 13:25

personally living in that type of fear is no way to live. time to move

+10

and I would have preferred it had this guy taken out all 20 of them, then moved

+100

ChunkyMonkey

09-08-2010, 13:37

Stupid move and he deserved to get busted.

I agree upto this point. Being stupid does not warrant an arrest. The article doesn't clarify what he is being charged for. I assume the initial charges were dropped from what the lawyer said.

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 13:42

Chuck Norris woulda kicked ass and screw taking names.

ChunkyMonkey

09-08-2010, 13:43

Chuck Norris woulda kicked ass and screw taking names.

But but but....bad guys don't come to Chuck Norris!! Chuck goes to bad guys!

BigBear

09-08-2010, 13:52

Chuck Norris woulda kicked ass and screw taking names.

In Soviet Russia... Comrade Chuck Norris still kicks ass! [Beer]

Mtn.man

09-08-2010, 13:55

Dirty harry has been on the last few nights, and so has Magnum force.

rockhound

09-08-2010, 21:07

the problem is every law abiding citizen is suddenly the bad guy. 20 bad guys on my lawn should be illegal. when 20 of them start making threats that seems like felony menacing to me. they have the number to provide a true fear of your life.

I can't see any sane jury convicting this guy. skip the plea and go to court.

CapLock

09-09-2010, 22:12

AK was a little over kill. I can usually run pest/vermin out of the yard with just a paint ball gun. AK back up would be recommended in that situation tho.

Elhuero

09-09-2010, 23:46

to the police nowadays (especially in NY) doing anything but running inside, hiding under the bed and calling 911 is an escalation punishable under law.

they are the ones carrying the guns and doing the protecting and serving. Us regular people lack their training and courage, and therefore should always defer to their superior authority and ability.

So remember, the supreme court has ruled that there is no constitutional obligation for the police to protect you. If they fail to protect you, they are not liable for any harm that comes to you.

A citizen should be prepared to defend themselves, and be prepared to get arrested for doing so.

Graves

09-10-2010, 00:52

Maybe he was trying to prove to the Mrs. that the money he spent on that wasr wasn't a complete waste...[Dunno]

Mtn.man

09-10-2010, 08:20

Well we all know you can't hit the side of a barn with an AK.
Bet he was aiming at them and hit the ground instead.

Ranger

09-10-2010, 08:27

Well we all know you can't hit the side of a barn with an AK.
Bet he was aiming at them and hit the ground instead.
I would say it's not the fault of the AK, but rather the very shaky hands of a nervous and paranoid homeowner that did that.

OgenRwot

09-10-2010, 08:56

So apparently in New York 20+ gangbangers doesn't qualify as Disparity of Force?

I seriously doubt that anyone here in Colorado would go to jail for firing a couple warning shots into the ground when their home is surrounded by 20+ gang members shouting death threats.

the problem is every law abiding citizen is suddenly the bad guy. 20 bad guys on my lawn should be illegal. when 20 of them start making threats that seems like felony menacing to me. they have the number to provide a true fear of your life.

I can't see any sane jury convicting this guy. skip the plea and go to court.

If there were 20+ gang bangers on this guys front lawn and he fired a shot he would be riddled with bullets. I think the number was a vast embellishment of the truth. Just sayin. Secondly, if there are 20+ gangbangers on your front lawn you are probably involved in something you shouldn't be. Just sayin.

Bad arrest.

Gangs are dangerous, but the real villain here are the bad gun laws and the broken legal system that criminalizes self defense.

Do you really think it's a bad gun law that says you can't discharge a firearm in a densely populated area? I don't see a broken legal system involved in this one.

Mtn.man

09-10-2010, 09:03

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-29210190611743_2119_1009609 (http://www.tshirtoutlet.com/4041.html)

Byte Stryke

09-10-2010, 12:52

I think that the only thing I See wrong was that warning shots should always be in 2s and Center mass.

other than that, he did fine.

wait until you have Gangs shooting up your house in a driveby and see what the cops do then.

They beat your ass because you come outside afterward with a gun trying to protect yourself...

with Cops and Politic.. I mean DAs its Lose-Lose for the citizen.

;)

ERNO

09-10-2010, 15:07

If I had any hint of any MS-13 threatening me on my front lawn,I would go concealed with 1911 45 acp,inside a folded newspaper behind my back,or holster,while calling 911.Describe the intruders and myself,and tell them I was packing;then head for my bedroom as my last refuge.The fact that that guy did not call 911,makes me suspect that he did not want to get the police involved.Plus I make sure I would have a cellphone on at all time during the chaos,so 911 would have a recording of the confrontation.I have recently changed my mind about "attack" dog's.It's better to use your attack dog,than to discharge your weapon;like with someone on your front lawn;because if you do discharge your weapon,on such a confrontation,and the law finds out about it;you will definitely need a lawyer.Whether your attack dog goes up against 20 or so MS-13 gang members,is another question.

ChunkyMonkey

09-10-2010, 15:12

He did tell his wife to call 911. Attack dog(s) or discharged firearm will require lawyer on your behalf no matter what. Try again!

My comment based on that article - He should have not said anything to the cops until his legal counsel is there. He should have stated that he felt that he was scared for his life and his family's life. The fact that his lawyer still allowed his clients to mumble out how the event occurred to the reporter also indicates that he could get a better lawyer! This won't stand in front of Jury, but it surely will cost him tons of $ to clear all charges w/o pleading guilty or no contest.

Clint45

09-22-2010, 23:24

Irving

09-22-2010, 23:29

I think it would be difficult to claim that he was in fear of his life because of gang bangers, so he shot some grass to end the threat. I wish that was a valid argument.

ChunkyMonkey

09-23-2010, 00:25

I'm fairly certain NY has an "assault weapons ban" and if that is the case he will be prosecuted and convicted on a felony weapon charge even if he has a valid case for self defense. Doesn't matter how much he spends on lawyers.

Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.

Read the article!

Clint45

09-23-2010, 12:02

Read the article!

As you know, police do not always know the law well enough to charge appropriately. Even though he has no record, is not a prohibited person, and possession occurred in his home, the way that NY Penal Code reads he is still subject to prosecution for a class D felony (3-7) for mere possession of a semi AK, which is specifically prohibited under the NY ban -- as are high capacity magazines if I'm reading it correctly. NY laws are deliberately complex and difficult to understand, but it looks like mere ownership of any AK variant anywhere in the state is a crime.