View Full Version : Open carry patriot confounds police
A man open carrying in ME is stopped by police and thwarts their attempts to curtail his rights.
Audio only, about 12 min long. A good way to kill a few minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifv5qfuXmKQ&feature=related
if this is in the wrong section I apologize.
I understand both sides of the story..... so I have nothing to say, lol. <--Post Whore.
Byte Stryke
09-13-2010, 10:47
General section is fine in my opinion...
I still think its hysterical that most people don't understand its is legal in most states to open carry.
I think he handled himself better than expected. Of course he was 100% correct. Most people wouldn't have stood their ground on principle, however.
I still think its hysterical that most people don't understand its is legal in most states to open carry.
I think it's sad that most people have a negative reaction when they encounter a firearm! lol.
I think he handled himself better than expected.
I agree, I also find it funny that cops never know how to react when a citizen actually knows the laws.
But like I said earlier, I understand both sides of the arguement so I can see why the cops wanted to name and know why he walking around and blah, blah....
Byte Stryke
09-13-2010, 11:27
I think it's sad that most people have a negative reaction when they encounter a firearm! lol.
I agree, I also find it funny that cops never know how to react when a citizen actually knows the laws.
But like I said earlier, I understand both sides of the arguement so I can see why the cops wanted to name and know why he walking around and blah, blah....
YOU, In The Car... what are you doing?
We've had reports that someone was driving a car in the area.
Sir, are you aware that THOUSANDS of people are killed every year with Cars?
We are going to detain you for possession of a car in a Public space and reckless endangerment. You might have killed someone with your car.
Just highlights that MOST Americans ARE Generally Stupid.
Operation of a motor vehicle on public roadways is NOT a right.
Carrying a firearms IS!
jweinsteiger
09-13-2010, 11:34
Operation of a motor vehicle on public roadways is NOT a right.
Carrying a firearms IS!
Sounds like the makings of a good bumper sticker!
I like how when the officer asked what the buldge in his pocket was he said it was a copy of the constitution
[ROFL2][ROFL3]
GoldFinger
09-13-2010, 11:39
"What statute is suspicious activity?" [ROFL1] Laws and RIGHTS sure do slow down police work sometimes.
Nice post!
YOU, In The Car... what are you doing?
We've had reports that someone was driving a car in the area.
Sir, are you aware that THOUSANDS of people are killed every year with Cars?
We are going to detain you for possession of a car in a Public space and reckless endangerment. You might have killed someone with your car.
Just highlights that MOST Americans ARE Generally Stupid.
Operation of a motor vehicle on public roadways is NOT a right.
Carrying a firearms IS!
lol, great point.
I like how when the officer asked what the buldge in his pocket was he said it was a copy of the constitution
[ROFL2][ROFL3]
Better answer (that would probably land you in jail): It's my dick, Dick... Wanna see it? *cue youtube video of cop patting down dude and asks what his dick was in his pocket
jweinsteiger
09-13-2010, 11:44
"What statute is suspicious activity?" [ROFL1] Laws and RIGHTS sure do slow down police work sometimes.
Nice post!
Interesting how ignorance of the LAW is no excuse for us yet our police seen to get away with it all the time. Don't get me wrong I support our police however there is plenty of room for improvement!
If you try to talk to the ATF that way, you end up dead. I understand though, tax work is some seriously dangerous stuff and those guys need to make it home safe every night.
If you try to talk to the ATF that way, you end up dead. I understand though, tax work is some seriously dangerous stuff and those guys need to make it home safe every night.
Wife of ATF agent: "Hide the dog kids!! Dad's on his way home!"
HAHAHAH [Beer]
ronaldrwl
09-13-2010, 12:51
[Alrigh]
2 more LEO's schooled on our rights
68Charger
09-13-2010, 13:42
hope it's not a crime in ME to record LEO's without their knowledge..
remember the MD traffic stop that was recorded by the citizen's helmet cam? They tried him for an obscure law that barred anyone from recording LEO's in the course of their work.
Well done, though...
I enjoyed it. My favorite part was right at the end when he was asking if he was free to go and they wouldn't respond, so he just walked away. [ROFL2]
BushMasterBoy
09-13-2010, 15:50
Never talk to the police!
I liked the part where he offered them the statute about him not having to provide his ID.
StagLefty
09-13-2010, 16:08
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a few years ago the Supreme Court ruled that if asked for an ID by LEO's you had to provide it ??
BushMasterBoy
09-13-2010, 16:22
The findings of the United States Supreme Court...
http://epic.org/privacy/hiibel/
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought a few years ago the Supreme Court ruled that if asked for an ID by LEO's you had to provide it ??
Maine does not have a stop and identify law.
Colorado does tho
68Charger
09-13-2010, 16:39
The supreme court decision means that laws passed by states requiring ID are constitutional... it does not mean that's the law in every state.
Byte Stryke
09-13-2010, 18:43
upheld (http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html) a Nevada law allowing law enforcement to arrest an individual when he refuses to identify himself, and reasonable suspicion--though not probable cause--exists that he has committed a crime.
1) Nevada Identify Law
2) reasonable suspicion... I'm Guessing being of the wrong ethnic origin is suspicious enough in most cases.
Those police were way calm and collect about the whole thing it seemed. I listened to about 5 min into it. At about 4 min is the point where Denver or Aurora cops would beat the shit out of you and then just get the ID themselves out of your wallet. That would be the good way. Other way is way way worse. One way or another they'd get a good look at you ID. If it has blood on it or not is your choice.
buffalobo
09-13-2010, 21:41
Too bad 99% of citizens are unwilling to inform themselves of the laws of thier state, even though it is our duty to be informed of the laws.
In reading the comments below the pic, the guy went to the station and reported the incident to the shift supervisor. Got an admission that officers were in the wrong and an apology from the supervisor. Chief instituted training program to address issues.
Other citizens of Biddeford should be free of such hassles later. Guy did a service for his community. Good on him.
ronaldrwl
09-14-2010, 07:54
Too bad 99% of citizens are unwilling to inform themselves of the laws of thier state, even though it is our duty to be informed of the laws.
In reading the comments below the pic, the guy went to the station and reported the incident to the shift supervisor. Got an admission that officers were in the wrong and an apology from the supervisor. Chief instituted training program to address issues.
Other citizens of Biddeford should be free of such hassles later. Guy did a service for his community. Good on him.
+1
I hope that it's true about the training program.
What's wrong with your cat :)
ShooterChick
09-14-2010, 08:07
I understand his point... but really? I don't understand why it was such a big deal to him. Seems more set up.... just walking around with the Main laws and the constitution? Really?
Byte Stryke
09-14-2010, 09:00
I understand his point... but really? I don't understand why it was such a big deal to him. Seems more set up.... just walking around with the Main laws and the constitution? Really?
I keep a set of the primary Colorado state laws regarding firearms in the trucks...
just in case there are questions.
It is my right to be protected by the laws of this state and this country, but they cannot protect me if I do not know them.
Just saying
and if anyone else has ever open-carried you know that there are the panicked liberals that will call the cops in a heartbeat.
I understand his point... but really? I don't understand why it was such a big deal to him. Seems more set up.... just walking around with the Main laws and the constitution? Really?
That's the whole point, isn't it? When I go out with my camera I take a copy of the laws regarding photography in public places with me because not too many cops seem to realise that I can photograph pretty much whomever and whatever I want.
Byte Stryke
09-14-2010, 09:59
That's the whole point, isn't it? When I go out with my camera I take a copy of the laws regarding photography in public places with me because not too many cops seem to realize that I can photograph pretty much whomever and whatever I want.
I have a Digital recorder on my phone... turned on and sitting on the dash anytime I get pulled over. (Which is thankfully rare.)
If you don't think you need an accurate record of police interactions you are naive. LEOs are people too, Complete with Faults and Imperfections.
and we spell it with a Z Here Jake ;)
buffalobo
09-14-2010, 11:08
+1
I hope that it's true about the training program.
What's wrong with your cat :)
Not sure what's wrong with the cat. It is not my cat, just a pic I ran accross surfing the net. I saved it cause everytime I see it I bust up laughing. I sure would like to know what it was that made that cat react that way and what will happen in the next frame.
[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
I understand his point... but really? I don't understand why it was such a big deal to him. Seems more set up.... just walking around with the Main laws and the constitution? Really?
Yes really. Many people who open carry prepare before hand like this. It helps keep them out of jail and out of the hospital.
hollohas
09-14-2010, 13:50
I think the police handled themselves very professionally and politely. I agree he wasn't doing anything illegal. While technically the guy open carrying is correct, if a police officer walks up to me while I am open carrying, I'm not going to give him a hard time unless he gives me a hard time and these officers were clearly not giving him a hard time. After all, I am on the side of the good guys and I want them on my side. If someone calls the police about someone with a gun, they have to go check it out...why give them a hard time if your one of the good guys?
The officers in this audio gave the guy no reason to believe they planned on doing anything but writing their report, which they are required to do when sent out to a call. Why not work with them? Give them your ID, they run it and they say "Cool buddy, thanks for working with us, we'll see you around."
He wasn't ever really detained, they were just having a friendly conversation.
Byte Stryke
09-14-2010, 14:21
I think the police handled themselves very professionally and politely. I agree he wasn't doing anything illegal. While technically the guy open carrying is correct, if a police officer walks up to me while I am open carrying, I'm not going to give him a hard time unless he gives me a hard time and these officers were clearly not giving him a hard time. After all, I am on the side of the good guys and I want them on my side. If someone calls the police about someone with a gun, they have to go check it out...why give them a hard time if your one of the good guys?
The officers in this audio gave the guy no reason to believe they planned on doing anything but writing their report, which they are required to do when sent out to a call. Why not work with them? Give them your ID, they run it and they say "Cool buddy, thanks for working with us, we'll see you around."
He wasn't ever really detained, they were just having a friendly conversation.
And now you are in the system.
"Let's run the SN on your weapons, your DL and your SSN "Just to be safe"
Now your routine traffic stops will look like a scene from "SWAT".
Anytime you get pulled over it will be a newsworthy event.
"14 police officers and the anti-terrorist unit were involved in a traffic stop today when the driver of a vehicle known to have several a semi-automatic assault weapons failed to signal."
see you on the news!
[ROFL1]
hollohas
09-14-2010, 14:58
And now you are in the system.
"Let's run the SN on your weapons, your DL and your SSN "Just to be safe"
Now your routine traffic stops will look like a scene from "SWAT".
Anytime you get pulled over it will be a newsworthy event.
"14 police officers and the anti-terrorist unit were involved in a traffic stop today when the driver of a vehicle known to have several a semi-automatic assault weapons failed to signal."
see you on the news!
[ROFL1]
I hate to tell you, but if you have a DL and/or CCW you are already in the system.
And Oneguy67 posted here (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27934) the Colorado Revised statute which says when LEOs can ask for ID and it also clearly says they cannot ask for SSN:
C.R.S. 16-3-103. Stopping of suspect:
(1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.
I'm not saying the police should be able to ask anoyone for ID at anytime but they got a call about this guy and they went to check it out. No harm there. That's their job. I don't think open carrying a firearm gives anyone reason to believe you are about to commit a crime but you can bet the the police can/will use this statute as a basis to ask for your ID.
IMO open carry should be legal and a non-issue everywhere, but not giving an officer your ID when asked is just a shitty move for tin hat folks who think they will stay out of those darn police computers by refusing. You're in there already, help the good guys out. The police aren't out there to get you. The conversation in this situation would have been 2 minutes instead of 12 if he just gave his ID. Then these two officers could have gone on to something more productive. Anyone who is or personally knows any LEO knows that they ask for ID almost every time they make contact with someone on a call if they think they are breaking the law or not. You would be surprised how many bad guys they find that way.
The real problem here is not the police, it's that ordinary citizens think that open carry is a reason to call the police.
psawjack
09-14-2010, 15:03
I commend this guy for being cool, calm, and collected when speaking to the fuzz. I would like to shake his hand. It's a shame that the guy had to keep on repeating over and over again his rights to the cops before they finally took him seriously. If you focus on the wording of the cops you can hear how they were dancing around with their words never accusing him of anything and trying to come up with different BS ways to get his name ("I just need your name and address to file my report..." HAHA Those cops are a crafty bunch.
hollohas
09-14-2010, 15:12
And now you are in the system.
"Let's run the SN on your weapons, your DL and your SSN "Just to be safe"
Now your routine traffic stops will look like a scene from "SWAT".
Anytime you get pulled over it will be a newsworthy event.
"14 police officers and the anti-terrorist unit were involved in a traffic stop today when the driver of a vehicle known to have several a semi-automatic assault weapons failed to signal."
see you on the news!
[ROFL1]
PS - if you get pulled over for failure to signal you have no right to refuse to give ID because that would be a lawful stop...bad example...
I hate to tell you, but if you have a DL and/or CCW you are already in the system.
And Oneguy67 posted here (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27934) the Colorado Revised statute which says when LEOs can ask for ID and it also clearly says they cannot ask for SSN:
C.R.S. 16-3-103. Stopping of suspect:
(1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.
I'm not saying the police should be able to ask anoyone for ID at anytime but they got a call about this guy and they went to check it out. No harm there. That's their job. I don't think open carrying a firearm gives anyone reason to believe you are about to commit a crime but you can bet the the police can/will use this statute as a basis to ask for your ID.
IMO open carry should be legal and a non-issue everywhere, but not giving an officer your ID when asked is just a shitty move for tin hat folks who think they will stay out of those darn police computers by refusing. You're in there already, help the good guys out. The police aren't out there to get you. The conversation in this situation would have been 2 minutes instead of 12 if he just gave his ID. Then these two officers could have gone on to something more productive. Anyone who is or personally knows any LEO knows that they ask for ID almost every time they make contact with someone on a call if they think they are breaking the law or not. You would be surprised how many bad guys they find that way.
The real problem here is not the police, it's that ordinary citizens think that open carry is a reason to call the police.
You do realize that there are 4th and 5th amendments to the US Constitution, right?
psawjack
09-14-2010, 15:18
The real problem here is not the police, it's that ordinary citizens think that open carry is a reason to call the police.
I totally agree with this statement. Also, do I think that most cops would rather be hanging out at a bagel or doughnut shop instead of pursuing upstanding citizens walking around with firearms...ABSOLUTELY.
hollohas
09-14-2010, 15:37
You do realize that there are 4th and 5th amendments to the US Constitution, right?
Pretty sure they didn't search or seize anything from this guy nor was he put on trial or accused of a crime without a grand jury. Nothing was taken from him.
Just because they asked for his ID doesn't mean they broke any of his rights.
It's a non-issue.
The guy open carrying had no rights infringed. He was not cuffed. He was not beaten. He was not held against his will or searched in anyway. He was not arrested or even detained as he keeps saying. He says they shouldn't keep asking him questions without an attorney...that's wrong. It's his job to keep silent if that's what he wants. They can ask him questions all day long with or without a lawyer. What most people don't understand is that the right to an attorney only means they can't use anything you say in court if they keep asking you questions after you have asked for an attorney.
I agree that he was totally within his rights to not give his ID and obviously the police did too becuase they didn't take it by force or arrest him. The police didn't nothing wrong either. They simply ASKED for his ID...where's the issue?
What I am saying is that I would have given these two particular officers my ID. They were professional and polite. I for one don't believe that the police are out to get me and I'm not going to give them a hard time for doing their job.
LEOs can ask all day for IDs, but citizens who are not committing or involved in criminal activity are not required to carry or provide an ID. Nor do I have to let an LEO into my home without a search warrant.
Nowhere is it written that a Colorado resident is required to carry an ID except when operating a motor vehicle. Residents are not required to carry or provide ID to anyone while open carrying a firearm.
Also, you don't even have to speak to a LEO - that is your 5th amendment right.
hollohas
09-14-2010, 15:49
LEOs can ask all day for IDs, but citizens who are not committing or involved in criminal activity are not required to carry or provide an ID. Nor do I have to let an LEO into my home without a search warrant.
Nowhere is it written that a Colorado resident is required to carry an ID except when operating a motor vehicle. Residents are not required to carry or provide ID to anyone while open carrying a firearm.
Also, you don't even have to speak to a LEO - that is your 5th amendment right.
I don't disagree at all. Even the Statute I mention above says you maybe required to provide identification "if available"...implying people aren't required to have it in their possession.
Agreed.
The 4th & 5th amendment are just as important as any other one, but most people fail to understand much less excercise these rights. I would guess that each and everyone on this board is quite passionate about our 2nd amendment rights and does what they can to promote a better understanding to those around us who are ignorant.
Without our constitutional rights we are just fodder to be pushed around by those that maintain power. To not stand up for your rights when incorrectly confronted by officials that do not understand the law is a failure as a citizen of the United States of America.
ronaldrwl
09-14-2010, 16:07
nvm
Nevermind?
Come on Bear get it out :)
probably another cops vs. pets wisecrack [ROFL2]
Byte Stryke
09-14-2010, 16:42
Nevermind?
Come on Bear get it out :)
probably another cops vs. pets wisecrack [ROFL2]
BB has already had his pee-pee slapped for that and apologized.
C'mon Guys
As long as these guys keep it civil I love to see them remind the leo's of our rights.
No reason to hassle the leo's but when they come to hassle you its nice to remind them of that little document called the Constitution.
kidicarus13
09-14-2010, 21:21
The guy open carrying had no rights infringed. He was not cuffed. He was not beaten. He was not held against his will or searched in anyway. He was not arrested or even detained as he keeps saying.
So if the guy would have walked away after he was initially stopped he would have been allowed to leave the presence of the officers without negative repercussions? I doubt that would have been an option with these officers until they had time to think it through as they wisely did. Limiting one's movement is a detention by definition regardless of the length of time he was detained or what you choose to call it.
BTW: I'm not rooting for the police or the guy fishing for the police's attention.
Fishing for the police's attention?
If you receive attention from the police for exercising your freedom in a lawful manner then there is something wrong with the police, not you.
That is why people open carry.
Otherwise the "only cops should have guns" mentality will prevail through complacency and eventually having a firearm would be illegal.
kidicarus13
09-14-2010, 23:45
Fishing for the police's attention?
The kid's age (if that is him pictured) and the way he come across to police sounded borderline rehearsed IMO. I seriously doubt it was a random encounter that happened to be audio recorded and then uploaded to YouTube.
Similiar to this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUKSIkosjOc
The kid's age (if that is him pictured) and the way he come across to police sounded borderline rehearsed IMO. I seriously doubt it was a random encounter that happened to be audio recorded and then uploaded to YouTube.
Similiar to this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUKSIkosjOc
personally I think the video I posted and the one you posted are utterly dissimilar.
this video will give more insight into what I'm getting at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoAGk5ebZWY&feature=channel
Nevermind?
Come on Bear get it out :)
Can't, don't want to upset the masses.
probably another cops vs. pets wisecrack [ROFL2]
Not entirely....
BB has already had his pee-pee slapped for that and apologized.
C'mon Guys
My pee-pee still stings... don't stick it in the crazy!!! HAHA.
... the "only cops should have guns" mentality will prevail through complacency and eventually having a firearm would be illegal.
^^^ Was going to say something along the lines of that concerning the "right" to open carry.
hollohas
09-15-2010, 09:34
Fishing for the police's attention?
If you receive attention from the police for exercising your freedom in a lawful manner then there is something wrong with the police, not you.
The police in this case were simply responding to a call, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. As mentioned before, it's generally a good thing when police respond to calls about a guy with a gun because they won't know if it is a bad guy with a gun or a good gun with a gun unless they check it out. Believe it or not they do get calls about "a guy with a gun" who is actually waving it around pointing it at people. That would be a bad guy. But they get the same calls with no further elaboration then "there's a guy with a gun" about good guys with guns on their hips. The general public freaks out way too easily so the problem actually falls on "them".
I think the guy open carrying was cool and so were the police in this case. They talked like real people and no one disrespected the other. This shows that police and citizens can actually work together. These two officers were very good cops in my opinion even if they did ask for his ID.
jweinsteiger
09-15-2010, 09:38
Our rights are like a muscle if we don't exercise them we will loose them.
My 2 cents
Any time I've ever called the police, they always ask why I'm calling them. I've called about suspicious people, and worse, before. The person on the phone always asks me, "Well what exactly are they doing?"
So when someone calls in with "There is a man with a gun!" and the dispatcher asks "What is he doing with the gun?" There should be a difference in the way the police respond depending on whether the caller says, "He's robbing a 7-11!" or "Well, right now it looks like he's shopping for cereal, but earlier he was eyeballing the milk!"
Either way the police still have to go, and still should be cautious, but it seems like it'd be pretty easy to judge the situation if when you approach the person, they are just reading a magazine and eating a strawberry tart while they wait on their latte when you arrive.
Plus, let's say that a guy is walking down the street with a gun, you approach him, and he tells you that he's just walking to the store to buy some smokes. Everything sounds fine and you let him go. If he blasts the convenience store guy or not isn't up to the police, and neither is guessing in the dark at what his intentions might be.
Byte Stryke
09-15-2010, 11:39
Plus, let's say that a guy is walking down the street with a gun, you approach him, and he tells you that he's just walking to the store to buy some smokes. Everything sounds fine and you let him go. If he blasts the convenience store guy or not isn't up to the police, and neither is guessing in the dark at what his intentions might be.
Cop: hey, you with the gun plainly out in the open where everyone can see it... whatcha doing?
Person: Well I WAS going to go commit an armed robbery, maybe get in a few homicides while I was out. Whew am I glad you stopped me and asked!
/sarcasm
[ROFL1]
hollohas
09-15-2010, 11:39
All very good points, Stuart.
hollohas
09-15-2010, 11:43
they are just reading a magazine and eating a strawberry tart while they wait on their latte when you arrive.
Any man with a gun who is also eating a strawberry tart is suspicous...;)
High Altitude
09-15-2010, 11:49
I am impressed with the way the police officers handled the situation. Could they of done a better job, sure, but I think most cops would of handled it much different in the interest of police safety and I am the one in charge attitude etc...............
Any man with a gun who is also eating a strawberry tart is suspicous...;)
I can't tell you how long I sat here, trying to think of the name of one kind of pastry that Starbucks sold. I couldn't even think of the word "pastry" at the time. Post would have been made much faster and easier if Starbucks would just start selling tacos like I've been telling them to do.
Post would have been made much faster and easier if Starbucks would just start selling tacos like I've been telling them to do.
Nope, can't do that... if you had "taco" and "Starbucks" together you're post numbers would be beyond GMKIA and the elusive IaG.
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