View Full Version : Most Inherently Accurate Full-Auto...
People with expertise:
What, in your opinion, is the most inherently accurate full auto firearm that a civilian could legally possess or gain access too?
Criterium - Knockdown, feild carry, low cost maintaince/ammo, accurate at 100 yards and LESS, etc.
I've shot a Ruger 22LR full auto. It was decent but would like more knockdown.
I've shot a M16 full auto. Really liked... but seems like it could be more accurate.
I've shot a HK MP5 full auto. LOVED, on my "want" list. Most accurate so far and in 9mm, "cheaper" but still can acheieve knockdown.
I've shot an Uzi.... felt lose, horrible, did not like. Bad accuracy, climbed high right like a mofo, whole 30 rnd mag gone in seconds, lol.
I've shot a .50... accurate on the first shot, but not exactly feild carry capable. Ammo super expensive.
I've not had a chance to shoot a 7.62 or .308 full auto but expect them to be the most accurate, mass quntities of ammo available, etc...
Your thoughts and experiences?
[M2] [AR15]
Can you expound a little on "why" you choose that Hoser? I did thoughourly enjoy the M16 I got to shoot.
AK. Full auto is not designed for sub-MOA performance, only "accuracy by volume." While I love the M4, its lack of penetreation compared to the 7.62 is compensated by its increased accuracy to reduce ammo consumption. Anyone can shootone well enough (10yr olds around the world can run a AK like a champ), ammo is cheap and abundant internationally, and materials to build are cheaper with less stringient tolerinces.
Is an FA AK available in teh US to pick up? From what sources? I've looked at impactguns and autoweapons and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of AK's...
I'm not looking for submoa, lol. More of a 20 rds in a 10 inch at 20 yards versus 20 rounds in a 5 foot at 20 yards... <-- numbers contrived, for example only.
Speaking of the 7.62, what are your thoughts on the FAL? Seen a few of them laying around.
I would say my Full Auto Saiga-12 with Slugs. She kept them in there at just over 1200 rds/min.
FA AKs are available....for $20,000.
Are there any M2 Carbines on the registry?
I would say my Full Auto Saiga-12 with Slugs. She kept them in there at just over 1200 rds/min.
Interesting... FA shottys didn't even cross my mind. That'd be some fun...
68Charger
09-20-2010, 15:41
I would say my Full Auto Saiga-12 with Slugs. She kept them in there at just over 1200 rds/min.
I'd love a crack at that- serious lead delivery!
[HiFive]
problem is- you can't get a transferable one, can you? [BooHoo]
doesn't matter, I'd have to win the lottery to buy a transferable MG anyway..
I think you can get a transferable AK and convert it to the 12 gauge. Not positive though.
BPTactical
09-20-2010, 19:57
HK G3 platform.
Excellent reliability, good accuracy, virtually unbreakable design, will eat every ammo made, easy field stripping, cheap magazines.
A little rough on recoil but less muzzle rise than a FAL
For strictly short range work an AK would be tough to beat.
...For strictly short range work an AK would be tough to beat.
Seems to be the consensus.... Why would it be hard to beat when the M16 is more inherently accurate, etc? I'm really interested in the "why's" and not just a gun listing.
HK G3 huh? Not familiar with that one. Time to google! [Beer]
This gun isn't really available to citizens, it's heavy, difficult to clean, etc... it's the AN-94, it has a barrel that slides back into the receiver with every shot. It has single shot, two shot burst, and full auto capability. The interesting thing here is the two shot burst. It fires those two shots at "1800 rpm" ... so if my early morning math is correct, there is a 0.033 second gap between each bullet. They claim someone good with the platform can put two bullets through the same hole reliably in that configuration.
H.
Wow, whole new meaning to "double tap"...
BPTactical
09-21-2010, 12:44
Wow, whole new meaning to "double tap"...
BigBear- a little off topic but the double tap technique may help the "Father" dilemma.....
[ROFL1]
G3 platform is the selective fire version of the HK91. Been around forever and a proven performer.
If you watch any video of just about any African conflict they are armed with either an AK or a G3, with the occasional Rhodesian FAL. The damn things are orange from rust but still thumping.
Much better accuracy than an AK at a distance beyond 100 meters. The 7.62 x 51 is a very effective and capable round.
I can typically hit shrubs at 7-800 yards with irons from my PTR all day.
BigBear- a little off topic but the double tap technique may help the "Father" dilemma......
Oh Dear Lord! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I just spit my water all over my keyboard! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
"Two in head and you know they be dead." HAHA.
Been looking at G3's for a few minutes, seem to be very nice from your description and what I can google.... Interesting. How much would a full auto G3 run though? Can't seem to find a price and don't really know where to look.
BPTactical
09-21-2010, 13:13
I am not real familiar with the NFA legalities of such but I would not think there are a lot of true G3's in country. You should be able to find a transferable Trigger group or sear though. A good place to price check would be Sturmgehwer.com (check spelling). They have a pretty wide selection of NFA toys for sale.
Yeah, that's one of the problems.... I would like to avoid the hassles of purchasing the wrong things or something non-compatable. That's why I'd prefer just the complete weapon (which I know makes it more expensive....
Eh, but it's just all dreams anyways.
So here's a really stupid question.. from what I'm reading the G3 takes a .308 round (7.62x51) not an AK round (7.62x39).... So what's the difference in those two rounds? <--Very basic question I SHOULD know the answer too, but don't as all I've ever had of the 7.62 flavor is a .308... Are all "7.62" not created equal?
BPTactical
09-21-2010, 14:29
No- not all 7.62 are equal. 7.62 x 39 is the classic AK round and is classified as an Intermediate round. 7.62 x 51 is classified as a rifle round and the 12 mm difference is a huge difference. I can't quote specific ballistics without looking it up but the 39 round was the Russian answer to the Kurz round for the STG 44 in WWII.
There was a ton of research after the war and it was the consensus that:
A- Most engagements were 200 meters or less.
B- Full size rifle rounds such as the 30.06, 7mm, 8mm and 7.62 x 54R were way overkill for such engagements.
Intermediate rounds were the result to save money, save raw materials, manufacture smaller and lighter weapons and the average troop could carry more rounds.
The 7.62 x 51 is a scaled down 30.06 and came about to be a NATO standard.
It still has good rifle ballistics and in the right weapon and the right hands it is capable of 1000 yard accuracy.
On the other hand the 7.62 x 39 falls on its face after about 300 meters. It packs a good punch up to about 150 meters and quickly fades after that. There are few platforms that can really eek any real accuracy from the AK round.
Some of it is the result of US vs Soviet mindset. The US soldier is a rifleman that is well trained and taught to shoot accurately at a distance.
The Soviet soldier is typically a conscript that does not receive near the training that the US soldier. They are taught to use their rifle as a bullet hose.
Interesting, thanks for the history/info lesson. I knew the '06 and .308 very pretty similiar but didn't realize they were the same family.
So how about your thoughts on AK vs G3? Or is there just no room for comparison as they were intended for differing roles?
BPTactical
09-21-2010, 17:59
Interesting, thanks for the history/info lesson. I knew the '06 and .308 very pretty similiar but didn't realize they were the same family.
So how about your thoughts on AK vs G3? Or is there just no room for comparison as they were intended for differing roles?
Apples to Oranges Bear
One is an "Assault rifle" (AK)
An assault rifle is defined as a selective fire (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Selective_fire)rifle (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Rifle) that uses an intermediate cartridge (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Intermediate_cartridges) and a detachable magazine (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Magazine_(firearms))
The term assault rifle is a translation of the German (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/German_language) word Sturmgewehr (literally "storm rifle", as in "to storm a position"). The name was coined by Adolf Hitler (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)[6] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-5) to describe the Maschinenpistole 44, subsequently re-christened Sturmgewehr 44 (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/StG44), the firearm generally considered the first assault rifle that served to popularise the concept and form the basis for today's modern assault rifles.
The translation assault rifle gradually became the common term for similar firearms sharing the same technical definition as the StG 44. In a strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:[7] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-6)[8] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-7)[9] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-8)
It must be an individual weapon with provision to fire from the shoulder (i.e. a buttstock (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Stock_(firearm)));
It must be capable of selective fire (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Selective_fire);
It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Pistol) but less than a standard rifle (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Rifle) or battle rifle (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Battle_rifle);
Its ammunition (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Ammunition) must be supplied from a detachable magazine (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Magazine_(firearms)).
And it should at least have a firing range of 300 metersThe other is a "Main Battle Rifle" (G3)
The battle rifle's power and long-range accuracy are intended to engage targets at long distances[1] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-0)[2] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-1), but this comes with a trade-off of length and weight that make it relatively cumbersome in close-quarter combat. Also, the recoil of a full-size cartridge makes most battle rifles difficult to control when using full-automatic fire, though a few designs have attempted to control this tendency.[3] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-everything2.com-2)[4] (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/#cite_note-Hogg.2C_Ian_1985-3)
In contrast, assault rifles (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Assault_rifle) fire smaller intermediate-size cartridges (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/Intermediate_cartridges) such as the 5.56x45mm NATO (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO) round used in the M16 (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/M16_rifle), Chinese 5.8x42mm (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/5.8x42mm) used in the QBZ-95 (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/QBZ-95) or the Russian moderate-velocity 7.62x39mm (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/7.62x39mm) and 5.45x39mm (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/5.45x39mm) cartridges of the AK-47 (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/AK-47), AKM (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/AKM), and AK-74 (http://www.co-ar15.com/wiki/AK-74) series of rifles. However, some overlapping of rifle design and cartridge application occurs; for example a few relatively compact selective-fire rifles in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber have been produced.
2 different tools.
Note-seriously plagerized from Wikipedia- can I get my $300,000 now[Tooth]
Lol, rgr, thank you again. I don't have the $300,000 nor can bail you out of jail, but I will definitely buy you a beer or something if we ever have the opportunity to meet. Sounds like the best idea would be an assult rifle then. Back to AK vs. M16....
So I guess in modern combat the main battle rifle is going the way of the dinosaur?
BPTactical
09-22-2010, 09:49
The MBR is alive and well. Look at Afghanistan- you have engagements that are taking place across valleys. You need the distance capability that a rifle cartridge offers and the Military has been pulling M14's out of mothballs for Designated Marksman rifles.
Just pick the right tool for the task you are performing.
Can you expound a little on "why" you choose that Hoser? I did thoughourly enjoy the M16 I got to shoot.
Of all the full autos that I have played with that are as pre 86 guns, the M-16 and its versions are the easiest to shoot full auto. Low recoil/sight movement, good trigger, good mags, not a lot of sharp edges, cheap ammo, ect is why I said M-16.
The MP-5 or HK-53 are also on the short list for the same reasons.
The P90 and MP-7 are also very easy to shoot, but are all post 86 guns.
It really depends a lot on what type of "field carry" and "knock down" you need along with what level of accuracy you expect.
IMO full auto and "accurate" are kind of mutually exclusive. In semi auto an M16 or MP5 are both pretty accurate, although the MP5 loses accuracy at longer distances since it's a pistol cartridge.
Furthermore "field carrying" a weapon that likely is worth over $10K may not be a great idea, I also don't know what the law says about carrying an NFA weapon around, likely depends on where you're carrying it I suppose.
For me full autos are just fun range toys, my biggest criteria is how expensive it is to feed, so for me a 9mm or .22LR are the best bets.
Of all the full autos that I have played with that are as pre 86 guns, ... but are all post 86 guns.
So what is the difference between the pre and post era guns if they both perform full auto functions? I feel like I'm missing something. Is it just that the pre-'86 are more rare and civilians can't own any post era'86's??
It really depends a lot on what type of "field carry" and "knock down" you need along with what level of accuracy you expect.
IMO full auto and "accurate" are kind of mutually exclusive. In semi auto an M16 or MP5 are both pretty accurate, although the MP5 loses accuracy at longer distances since it's a pistol cartridge.
Furthermore "field carrying" a weapon that likely is worth over $10K may not be a great idea, I also don't know what the law says about carrying an NFA weapon around, likely depends on where you're carrying it I suppose.
For me full autos are just fun range toys, my biggest criteria is how expensive it is to feed, so for me a 9mm or .22LR are the best bets.
RTR, thanks for your input. Eventually if I ever could afford one of these it would be a safe queen and range toy only. I was just thinking about our military fighting overseas and how people talk about teh 5.56 not having the "umph" to have a clean knockdown or keep a straight trajectory through objects (windshields, etc) at distance and blah, blah, blah so I was thinking up a "want list" of criteria for a battle weapon and wondering what was out there that people have had experience with.
Civilians can't own post '86.
Civilians can't own post '86.
Rgr, I was wondering if there was something else.
Also, another interesting thought... Just saw something about a Thompson in a magazine... but I guess we've already been over that due to it being a pistol caliber....
A belt fed with the tri-pod attached at the end of the barrel might be decently accurate.
Where does the BAR come in on this list? I figured it'd be mentioned.
gcrookston
09-26-2010, 18:24
Perhaps the most accurate full - auto rifle I've ever fired was a Browning M1918A2. Due to its weight, rather slow rate of fire and the bi-bod, it was easy to control and quite pleasant to shoot.
I owned a fleming sear registered in 3 calibers and played with it in an SBR HK94 (MP5 clone), HK43 and HK91. I've also shot an M14, several M16s in both 5.56 and 9mm, a vietnam bringback Chinese AK47 and an 08 Maxim/Spandau -- none of these weapons produced the groups I was able to achieve with the BAR during automatic fire.
I would think the BAR would be too "big" to be considered.... I would like to fire one some time though... but I think I might be spoiled on teh .50! lol.
BPTactical
09-27-2010, 11:08
Don't forget that one of the most accurate Semi Auto rifles in the world is built off of the G3 platform, the PSG 1. Basically a HK 91 with a bull, longer barrel, enhanced trigger pack and stock.
Fredmisery
03-12-2011, 23:30
I noticed nobody has brought the Uzi up since the original post. I have a Vector that is surprisingly easy to control on full-auto with amazing accuracy. Throw a green mountain barrel in it and crank up the cyclic rate with a rubber buffer and you'd be amazed at how much it improves the functioning of the gun. M16 is the same way, as long as I'm running a good barrel I think it's pretty darn accurate in full-auto, but again, I have manipulated the cyclic rate to what is most controllable for me and my shooting style.
Now bringing up the combat issue with 5.56mm I think the round is very effective through a standard M16 (M16A4 is what I generally carried). Most of the guys I worked with had M4's and a few with even shorter barrels, they might have a different opinion of the cartridge's performance, but out of a 20" barrel I think it works like it's supposed to at the ranges it was intended for. I would not have minded an M14 EBR, but wasn't available, my only choice was an M4 or M16, I chose the 16. AK's are fine for what they were designed to do, but over there I have to admit I kinda hated them
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