Gun show "Loop hole"

[BlasterBob]

Just kinda wondering out loud here. I'm sure that everyone here on this great CO AR-15 web site is very familiar with the requirements of firearms transfers at gun shows here in Colorado. If any part of the transaction takes place at a gun show, the transfer MUST be handled through a FFL, per Colorado law.
OK, say the gun show is on (now this date is only an example) September 4th and 5th, a Sat and Sunday, starting at 9AM both days and ending at 4PM both days. Now the gun show has that official date/time so what happens if a NON-FFL has arranged for a table for that particular gun show and is setting up his stuff on Friday, Sept 3rd, the day BEFORE the official gun show date. Since the gun show does not exist until Saturday at 9AM, would the NON-FFL guy need to go through a FFL to make a transfer if he wants to make a sale and delivery on that Friday? Yeah, it's a very gray area and maybe this would seldom happen and I sure as hell do NOT want to be a test case but what are your thoughts about the legality of such a sale/transfer on that Friday without going through a FFL dealer - thanks.

[Great-Kazoo]

If it is within the boundries of the gun show then it falls under the BG gun show check. Now if you decide to meet prior to a show on land the show does not reign over then it is a private/FTF sale.
A gun show is defined as 3 or more people meeting to buy, sell or trade firearms anywhere in the state of CO.
When you go to tanner off 58th you will see a sign entering the parking lot just past the fast food lot stating this is a gunshow, or something like it.

[BlasterBob]

A gun show is defined as 3 or more people meeting to buy, sell or trade firearms anywhere in the state of CO.


You are correct but I believe, if my old memory serves me correctly, there is also a certain number of guns required for it to be considered a gun show.

[Irving]

I've never bought at a gun show. So when guys just walk around trying to sell a rifle and they find a buyer, do they have to go and find a random FFL to do the transfer?

[BlasterBob]

Stuart, I believe most gun show promoters/managers will have pre-arranged for an FFL to be present at the show to handle these transactions. One good thing about this is that the FFL, by CO law, can only charge up to a maximum fee of $10 for his back ground check service.
I believe, if you so desire, you can also scout around and may find other FFL dealers present who may be willing to handle the transfer for you.

[Great-Kazoo]

You are correct but I believe, if my old memory serves me correctly, there is also a certain number of guns required for it to be considered a gun show.

3 or more people. how many guns is immaterial. it is the amount of people. Keep in mind ANY deal or contact made during a show, which leads to a sale afterward is required to go through a BG check, as it falls under the same law.

[Scanker19]

I had a guy wanted to buy something i had at a show but didn't want to do a background check. he was like lets just go in the parking lot. I told him didn't you see the signs?

As far as i'm concerned you're either paranoid, have something to hide, or fishing for an agency.

Just go up the road.

Does it count if you meet at a gun show, and buy else where?

[Irving]

Yeah probably. They would probably use some bullshit term like "nexus" or something.

[Great-Kazoo]

I had a guy wanted to buy something i had at a show but didn't want to do a background check. he was like lets just go in the parking lot. I told him didn't you see the signs?

As far as i'm concerned you're either paranoid, have something to hide, or fishing for an agency.

Just go up the road.

Does it count if you meet at a gun show, and buy else where?

read my post above yours. ANY contact at the show which results in a sale after wards falls under the gun show loophole law. get with the program folks. a lot of gun owners voted for this bill after columbine, as they felt it was "reasonable" and would not effect them. flash forward to any competition and OOPS sorry you need to do a BG check.
the RICO law the feds pushed under the guise of targeting "outlaw" biker gangs morphed in to busting the card game after hours in a bar, VFW hall etc. It all sounds reasonable if "it saves just one life" or takes crime off the streets. yet Illegal's still wander freely, in sanctuary city's all in hope they can get enough paperwork to keep the poly-ticks in office.

[BlasterBob]

3 or more people. how many guns is immaterial. it is the amount of people. Keep in mind ANY deal or contact made during a show, which leads to a sale afterward is required to go through a BG check, as it falls under the same law.

jim, I don't want to make it look like I'm "beating a dead horse" but part of your post (quoted above) about three or more people makes it sound like if a guy has a garage/yard sale with a gun or two and then three or four guys show up TOGETHER to look at and perhaps buy a gun, it'd be considered a "gun show". Do you really believe that those three or more people would consititute a gun show in that case? If it would actually apply, then the guy throwing the garage sale would be responsible to locate a FFL who will be agreeable to run the background check and would that FFL legally be able to charge more than the Colorado authorized $10 gun show background check rate?
Of course there is always the possibility that the potential buyer may not pass the background check so the gun would have to be given back to the garage sale owner and to do that, the FFL would have to run a back ground check on him too. Then the FFL gets word that the garage sale owner has a domestic violence conviction on his record so the FFL now cannot give the gun back to it's rightful owner. Hey, this shit could go on and on and on.....Who voted for the ding dongs that passed these laws????

[BlasterBob]

OK, this may "muddy up the waters" even a little more.
I looked up the Colorado law on BACKGROUND CHECKS - GUN SHOWS.

Under 12-26.1.106 is reads,
"Gun show" means the entire premises provided for an event or function, including but not limited to parking areas for the event or function, that is sponsored to facilitate, in whole or in part, the purchase, sale, offer for sale, or collection of firearms at which:
(a) twenty-five or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange; or
(b) not less than three gun show vendors exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange firearms".

"Gun show vendor" means any person who exhibits, sells, offers for sale, transfers, or exchanges, any firearm at a gun show, regardless of whether the person arranges with a gun show promoter for a fixed location from which to exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange any firearm".

So, looks like if there was a gun show scheduled for a certain Winter weekend and due to very heavy snows, all of the vendors but two NON-FFL vendors had to cancel their appearance because they were totally snowed in. The promoter of the event couldn't get a refund from the facility so decided to go ahead with the event anyhow.The two NON-FFL vendors who did show up only had a total of fifteen or twenty guns to sell - sounds like a gun show did NOT materialize so the background checks would NOT be necessary as they were merely trying to get rid of their collections. Sound right?? Yeah, mighty slim chance of this really happening but it could.

[rhineoshott]

I think you implied this, but it also sounds like buyers are not included as part of the three "vendors".

Now is it saying: A+B is required, or either A or B? Because then the two vendors in your scenario would not have to have a combined number of guns less than 25. But if that is not the case, what about one guy who wants to sell a collection of 30 guns (like a garage sale)? Surely that's not a gun show.

Hmm, interesting stuff!

[sniper7]

I don't know the legal side but either way i would err on the side of caution. Don't wanna get f'd by the atf

[BlasterBob]

I think you implied this, but it also sounds like buyers are not included as part of the three "vendors".

Now is it saying: A+B is required, or either A or B?

It is saying a OR b.........not a AND b. The way I read it anyhow. Yeah, stay on the side of extreme caution as the LE troops and States Attorney people can interpret it any way that they feel it NEEDS to be.
I don't believe the ATFE should anything to do with this type case as it is a CO law we are referring to.
I also don't believe the three buyers should be considered VENDORS unless they were there to peddle one or some of their firearms.. Remember that a Vendor is anyone who EXHIBITS, sells, offers for sale......With that in mind, probably best to just leave their CCW firearm in their vehicle while in the show because that unloaded firearm wouldn't do them much good unless used as a club.[Tooth]

You can easily tell that I am retired since I apparently have all day to sit around and dream up this kind of shit.

[Irving]

The ATF would find a way to bust normal Joe Schmoe in any and all of those situations, legal or not. Best not to risk it.

[TFOGGER]

The ATF would find a way to bust normal Joe Schmoe in any and all situations, legal or not.

Fixed. The ATF will find a way to bust you, whether or not you've actually done anything illegal, if they really want to.

[Mtn.man]

I just go for the rocket launchers and the fully automatic weapons I can get becuase of the loop hole.

[theGinsue]

I just go for the rocket launchers and the fully automatic weapons I can get becuase of the loop hole.


So YOU'RE the one buying these at the gun shows around the country. When are you going to be giving them to the drug cartels in Mexico, I might be up for a road trip. /sarcasm