View Full Version : not to ruin someones thread but,why post potential illegal act on here?
HBARleatherneck
10-12-2010, 14:03
In the for sale forum, a brand new member first post is soliciting a straw purchase. Am I wrong, or is telling everyone you live in another state, and asking to buy a gun wrong? he said his son will take care of it, but then he is making a straw purchase since his father cant legally buy here. i know people do it everyday for family and friends, but announcing it to the world seems wrong. Or am I wrong? or is he a JBT trying to ensnare someone?
its not my forum. but how about a 1-3 month period before you can sell, and or 100 legitimate posts? this keeps it clean for members who participate, those other people can buy a membership at cologunmarket or take their chances with craigslist.
OgenRwot
10-12-2010, 14:11
Honestly, could be a sting. Maybe you should post this in there so somebody doesn't get duped or this site doesn't get labeled as a place for illegal activities.
HBARleatherneck
10-12-2010, 14:13
i did then I remembered not to shit on someones thread. i did push the report button. i really dont care what people do. but i like co-ar15, and would like to see it continue to operate. so do the bad stuff at home and shut your hole online.
ThunderSquirrel
10-12-2010, 14:14
Everything about that post seems sketchy... down to the 'Its an old number, voicemail only... blah blah..."
I'm with you on this one. Outright asking for a straw purchase shouldn't be allowed, especially for post #1.
ronaldrwl
10-12-2010, 14:17
A short waiting period before selling is worth a discussion. Is it just me? I dislike post number 1 is something for sell.
clublights
10-12-2010, 14:17
In the for sale forum, a brand new member first post is soliciting a straw purchase. Am I wrong, or is telling everyone you live in another state, and asking to buy a gun wrong? he said his son will take care of it, but then he is making a straw purchase since his father cant legally buy here. i know people do it everyday for family and friends, but announcing it to the world seems wrong. Or am I wrong? or is he a JBT trying to ensnare someone?
its not my forum. but how about a 1-3 month period before you can sell, and or 100 legitimate posts? this keeps it clean for members who participate, those other people can buy a membership at cologunmarket or take their chances with craigslist.
Unless I'm wrong on the law.......
The Seller or trader ( since I read the ad your talking about ) would be breaking a law, they should not deal with this guy. That is the individuals responsibility.
As for the second part ...
This will only hurt the forum in the long run. Just because you are new you should not able to sell something? Who does and HOW do you define 100 "legitimate" posts?
ChunkyMonkey
10-12-2010, 14:19
I just saw that ad too. In the past I have recommended some minimum post number before you may post a classified ad. I won't buy from a 1 post wonder either.. For now its a matter each safety preference I suppose.
OgenRwot
10-12-2010, 14:22
From a site I frequented in Arizona. I really liked the way they handled their classifieds section. At a point the site had a flood (as outlined below) of new users and the classifieds became a disaster. I was there before and after the new TOS and after they were implemented it was much better and had a lot less clutter.
Please read this entire post.
In an effort to increase the quality of ArizonaShooting (AZS), and to reduce the number of users who have recently flooded AZS merely to buy/sell things and not be contributing/productive members of the forum, ArizonaShooting has a policy to regulate access to the classified ad section of the website. However, in order to reduce the likelihood of people "gaming"Â the system, we are not publicizing the requirements, nor will we tell you what they are except to say that it is NOT a function consisting solely of post count. If/when you meet the requirements, you will find that you have access to the classifieds. Until such time, you do not. If you've previously had access to them and suddenly find you do not, it means that you do not meet the current criteria. There is no "grandfathering" of users. We strongly suggest that you continue to be active in the forums and on the site in general, as we may modify requirements down the road.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. However, while one of the main purposes of the board has been to promote the free-market exchange of legal goods and services, there have been a number of users who have taken advantage of the nature of the board to the disadvantage of other users. Short of policing every transaction, something the moderators and board owner are unable to do, this policy has been created, hopefully for the benefit of all involved and will help to return the trust and satisfaction that users experienced in the past when using the classifieds. This does not replace common sense in dealing with someone that you do not know. Do your own research.
Additionally, as a reminder for those who do have access to the classifieds:
- The classifieds are not discussion forums. Except in rare circumstances, the only one to post in the ad should be the seller.
- If you have a question for the seller, you can either PM them or post it up in the forum, especially if it's a question that might be of general interest to others. This doesn't mean, though, you can post stuff like "Did you know you can get it for less at XYZ store?" or things like that.
- Purchase offers should be done via PM or email them, but please do not post "PM/email sent". "I'll take it" is fine to post, however please no follow ups like "darn, I am always too slow", etc., even if, darn it, you always ARE too slow.
- If the rules in the classifieds are not followed, you may receive a warning via the board. If you get enough warnings, you will lose access to the classifieds area.
For those who do not have access to the classifieds:
- There are no exceptions to gaining access if you don't have it. None. Don't ask. The process is automated and once you meet the criteria, you will have access.
- Trying to game the system with 10,000 "+1" or "I agree" posts will not only still not get you access, but may earn you a ban from the site. If it's obvious that you're posting with the intent to raise post count and not contributing anything to threads you post in, you risk being banned from the site and/or having your account "reset".
- If you make "for sale" posts (or "want to buy" posts) in another forum, you will be permanently banned from the site.
These changes have been implemented in order to try to provide a better experience in the classified ad section for all AZS members - not just people who sign up for accounts on AZS. Thanks.
NOTE: There are absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS.
clublights
10-12-2010, 14:22
Also I can see not wanting to " shit on someones thread" but letting them know that they are specifically breaking the law is being helpful not hurtful..
If it is just a person making a mistake letting them know the law helps save TWO people ( well three since he is getting his son involved too) the buyer and the seller
If it is a "sting" lets the LEO behind it that we( and by we I mean the rest of you guys... I swear I learn something new here everyday) are knowledgeable of the laws and they should look for easier targets then the fairly smart people involved with CO-AR15.com.
HBARleatherneck
10-12-2010, 14:24
i looked his number and screen name up. he posts on classic car forums, benelliusa,etc. stupid but, he is probably legit, but asking for trouble.
ok, so no minimum post amount. then minimum time on the forum.
Frank on SnipersHide made it something like 100 posts. but, that doesnt work unless the mods get nitpicky. because some guys are "IBTL, WTF, cool, awesome,etc" nothing productive. I think minimum time on the forum. 1 - 3 months would discourage people who only come to hawk their wares. And have a more productive and partcipatory membership. but who am i?
thanks for stealing my thunder Owen. since you posted what I was thinking. are you spying on me?
I posted on another local board for many years. They implemented a minimum post count to view certain forums because a lot of car thieves viewed the site and would steal people's stuff, or just sign up to sell stolen parts.
The minimum post count kind of cleaned up the for sale section, but not completely. I hope it doesn't come to that here, but that is just my person opinion. When you do that, a lot of focus is moved to who is legit and who is not, and really takes away from the site itself. It becomes like an exclusive club where every new member is frowned down on and scoffed at for months before they are accepted.
On another note though, what if you want to buy someone a gun as a gift? How is that not a straw purchase, and what makes that acceptable compared to any other straw purchase?
HBARleatherneck
10-12-2010, 14:51
its semantics. but he is saying he is out of state . therefore a prohibited person. if his son were to post an ad just stating he was looking for a firearm for a gift for his dad. and nothing else, it would have went unnoticed. but the way he went about it, looked criminal.
i wouldnt say minimum time or posts to buy. just to sell. if someone wants to sell to a new member, good.
clublights
10-12-2010, 14:56
On another note though, what if you want to buy someone a gun as a gift? How is that not a straw purchase, and what makes that acceptable compared to any other straw purchase?
I believe gifting is specifically covered in the law .. as in it is allowed ( assuming the person receiving the gift is legal to own )
It's kinda like dating ........ Take a girl to dinner and a movie .. it's legal to have sex .. give her 40 bucks and it's prostitution LOL
Haha, great point.
Give her a $2,000 engagement ring to contract her till death do you part and it's okay.
Give her $2,000 cash and she is a high priced escort.
BPTactical
10-12-2010, 15:00
This for sale thread has an aroma to it. IF this guy in MN is as claimed then he damn well knows what constitutes a "Straw Purchase". Unattended # at his "Old Forensic Lab"? Leave your own incriminating voicemail!
Don't tell me they don't sell Glocks in MN-
This one has more flags than the front of the UN building.
Speaking of which, remember the post titled "Something Bugs me" or similar. That thread stunk for the reason the OP was pissy about sellers requesting ID . Now the OP claimed to be an ex LEO and could not understand the importance of showing an ID or a BOS. BS!
I think the trolls are in full flight...
As far as a certain number of posts before you can post a firearm for sale, I think it is a good idea.
How about this idea- instead of a certain timeframe/post count- New members can only post firearm accessories or non firearm items until a becoming a verified member.
Verification could only occur after X amount of positive feedbacks from verified existing members.
I think it could be a good way to thin the crops.
Just a thought........
Rules would have to very specific... I don't sell a lot and would hate to be limited on what I could do because I didn't have enough appropiate "feedback"....
I bet if Bigbear had never made that joke about shooting dogs...
I bet if Bigbear had never made that joke about shooting dogs...
HAHAH. RRRRRUUUUUNNNNN!!!!! [M2]
Another board I'm on requires 30 days membership and 25 legitimate posts before items can be listed in the classifieds, and also to post in some forum sections. This has kept the idjits to a minimum.....
http://www.wtf.com/gallery/data/2/258Troll_spray.jpg
I looked at the original post, and the only thing missing is the FBI/ATF approved GPS/Dye packet.... someone appears to be fishing for retards.... [LOL]
clublights
10-12-2010, 15:12
Haha, great point.
Give her a $2,000 engagement ring to contract her till death do you part and it's okay.
Give her $2,000 cash and she is a high priced escort.
It's a joke I make all the time.......
just never make it infront of a woman without the right sense of humor...... they never seem to find it as funny as the males of the group do .....
And NEVER EVER make it when on a first date... no matter how good her sense of humor is ............... LOL Don't ask how I know........
and yes I'll admit my sense of humor is........... off.
clublights
10-12-2010, 15:17
And onto a question much more related to the subject...........
is "gifting" over state lines without a FFL involved legal ??
I have a feeling .. by letter of the law... it is not .
but I think the ATF, CBI, any other LE agency, would be hard pressed to get a conviction over it .. hard to get a jury to agree it was done with ill intent ... unless the jury is all from new york or cali. I guess..
You're assuming that the ATF needs proof of anything.
clublights
10-12-2010, 15:32
You're assuming that the ATF needs proof of anything.
Point taken.
OgenRwot
10-12-2010, 15:41
And onto a question much more related to the subject...........
is "gifting" over state lines without a FFL involved legal ??
I have a feeling .. by letter of the law... it is not .
but I think the ATF, CBI, any other LE agency, would be hard pressed to get a conviction over it .. hard to get a jury to agree it was done with ill intent ... unless the jury is all from new york or cali. I guess..
So long as the state you're gifting to is touching Colorado you're good to go. That's the way the law is here, you can sell to anybody that is a bordering state (at least that's the way it was a few years ago, could have changed).
I think that is for long guns only.
SA Friday
10-12-2010, 15:43
I highly doubt it's LE trolling for fish. The rules for sting operations are very specific. There has to be a propensity for this type of illegal action before the fishing expedition can occur. This site is far from what I would consider rebellious (we don't have to like them, but I have yet to see someone overtly promote breaking them on the site) towards the current state and federal firearms laws. I would surmise short of a few ATF agents I know, the level of understanding and law abidement on this forum is way above the average level.
Can we still pretend?
Also, how do the LEO's know there isn't that propensity here unless they check?
clublights
10-12-2010, 15:54
Can we still pretend?
Also, how do the LEO's know there isn't that propensity here unless they check?
this is why I said it was a good idea earlier to poit at the law to the seller/trader....
let's the ATF/anyone else know there is no point in grabbing the ole rod and throwing out bait in this pond.. there are no fish.
Well Bobby caught me on a bad day, I have an eyelash caught in my eye and I can't get it out and it is very irritating.. So, thread is locked and Bobby is on a 7 day time out.. You guys seem smart enough to sniff out the trolls and such, so, I have little to worry about..
Just a word of warning, until I get the eyelash out of my eye,,[Muaha]
About the post count thing...another forum I'm on imposed a 5 post minimum to even browse the classifieds. Very reasonable and has worked quite well.
OneGuy67
10-12-2010, 17:27
So long as the state you're gifting to is touching Colorado you're good to go. That's the way the law is here, you can sell to anybody that is a bordering state (at least that's the way it was a few years ago, could have changed).
You are referring to C.R.S. 12-27-101 through 104, "contiguous states" and you are not correct in your belief. It deals with licensed dealers, not private citizens. This language was mimicked from the federal law.
12-27-101 Legislative Declaration - Nonresident
(1) It is declared by the general assembly that it is lawful for a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or a licensed collector (licensed under the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968") whose place of business is in this state to sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a state contiguous to this state, subject to the following restrictions and requirements:
(a) The purchaser's state of residence must permit such sale or delivery by law.
(b) The sale must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states.
(c) The purchaser and the licensee must have complied, prior to the sale or delivery for sale of the rifle or shotgun, with all of the requirements of section 922 (c) of the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968" applicable to interstate transactions other than those at the licensee's business premises.
12-27-102 Legislative Declaration - Resident
(1) It is declared by the general assembly that it is lawful for a resident of this state, otherwise qualified, to purchase or receive delivery of a rifle or shotgun in a state contiguous to this state, subject to the following restrictions and requirements:
(a) The sale must fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such contiguous states;
(b) The purchaser and the licensee must have complied, prior to the sale or delivery for sale of the rifle or shotgun, with all of the requirements of section 922 (c) of the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968", applicable to interstate transactions other than at the licensee's business premises.
12-27-103 Definitions
As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) "A state contiguous to this state" means any state having a common border with this state.
(2) All other terms shall be construed as such terms are defined in the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968".
12-27-104 Article Does Not Apply - When
(1) The provisions of this article do not apply to:
(a) Transactions between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors;
(b) The loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
(c) A person who is participating in any organized rifle or shotgun match or contest, or is engaged in hunting, in a state other than his state of residence and whose rifle or shotgun has been lost or stolen or has become inoperative in such other state, and who purchases a rifle or shotgun in such other state from a licensed dealer if such person presents to such dealer a sworn statement:
(I) That his rifle or shotgun was lost or stolen or became inoperative while participating in such a match or contest, or while engaged in hunting, in such other state; and
(II) Identifying the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which such person resides, to whom such licensed dealer shall forward such statement by registered mail.
It's actually not illegal. . .
He's in another state, people sell guns (even handguns) state to state all the time. To complete this transaction and sell him a Glock 26, all you'd have to do is have an FFL ship to an FFL near him and it's completely legal.
Now I'm ASSuming that by having his son "handle it" he meant that his son would check condition of the firearm for him before your FFL ships to his FFL.
all on the up and up. . . . .
Now if he was asking to have his son buy a gun for him in another state, that's a completely different story
oh, and I think having to wait to view or post in classified sections until a certain post count is a silly idea. There are forums that I read every day that in 5 years I haven't hit 100 posts yet.
Just because some people think they know "everything about everything" and want everyone to "know that they know" doesn't mean that they are trustworthy or honest. "buyer and seller beware"
Now if he was asking to have his son buy a gun for him in another state, that's a completely different story
I may have been reading wrong, If I was... But, this was the impression I was getting...
HBARleatherneck
10-12-2010, 17:53
due to the rebuke from clublights, i retract my statement.
thanks i did just eat, now shoe leather too.
clublights
10-12-2010, 18:04
reading everyday for 5 years, but didnt register untill 2 months ago.
read his post a little better.......................
I thought the same thing .. and almost posted the exact same thing you just said.....
but I don't like the taste of shoe leather much anymore ..... so I re read. then shut my pie hole LOL
OgenRwot
10-12-2010, 18:30
You are referring to C.R.S. 12-27-101 through 104, "contiguous states" and you are not correct in your belief. It deals with licensed dealers, not private citizens. This language was mimicked from the federal law.
So it looks like it says nothing of the sort so long as you are both here in Colorado making the sale. What I was referring to only applies to FFLs. Is that correct?
It's actually not illegal. . .
He's in another state, people sell guns (even handguns) state to state all the time. To complete this transaction and sell him a Glock 26, all you'd have to do is have an FFL ship to an FFL near him and it's completely legal.
Now I'm ASSuming that by having his son "handle it" he meant that his son would check condition of the firearm for him before your FFL ships to his FFL.
all on the up and up. . . . .
Now if he was asking to have his son buy a gun for him in another state, that's a completely different story
Sure it's not illegal so long as you ship to an FFL. But the way the post was worded made it look like his son would "handle things" i.e. purchase the gun for him and he would "ship himself" the gun to be traded to his son's address. You may very well be right, he could have intended to go through an FFL but it didn't sound like it at all.
Well Bobby caught me on a bad day, I have an eyelash caught in my eye and I can't get it out and it is very irritating.. So, thread is locked and Bobby is on a 7 day time out.. You guys seem smart enough to sniff out the trolls and such, so, I have little to worry about..
Just a word of warning, until I get the eyelash out of my eye,,[Muaha]
Should have sent me a PM. I would have rushed right over and poured cup after cup of water in your eye until it was out.
Should have sent me a PM. I would have rushed right over and poured cup after cup of water in your eye until it was out.
Tried that, even Took a shower sticking My eye under the water.. Just filled up the tub and stuck my face underwater and shook it.. I think it's still there..
Well, I have some saline solution for contacts if you'd like to borrow some. I did like seeing you use the ban hammer today though.
I have one more thing to try, see if that works..
How come you never say that about the garden variety spammer?
[Tooth]
Cause you never post in their threads and rub their faces in it!
theGinsue
10-12-2010, 19:36
Just because some people think they know "everything about everything" and want everyone to "know that they know" doesn't mean that they are trustworthy or honest. "buyer and seller beware"
I think he's talking about me. <Looking around> Yup, I definitely think he's talking about me.
[ROFL1][ROFL3][ROFL2]<joke>
Should have sent me a PM. I would have rushed right over and poured cup after cup of water in your eye until it was out.
When I saw the "pour cup after cup" (before I read the rest of your statement) I pictured you with hot coffee...
I don't know why, I just did.
I did like seeing you use the ban hammer today though.
Yeah, I can't say that I've seen that here in a long time except for the 100% spamming trolls.
Cause you never post in their threads and rub their faces in it!
Yikes. True, but Yikes!
Back to the OP, I wanted to thank everyone who thought the thread/post in question was suspect and reported it. By policing the site ourselves we help to ensure we stay within the law and don't allow the perception of wrongdoing to come into play.
OneGuy67
10-12-2010, 20:56
So it looks like it says nothing of the sort so long as you are both here in Colorado making the sale. What I was referring to only applies to FFLs. Is that correct?
As I understand it, both parties need to be state residents and the seller cannot be aware of anything that would make the buyer a prohibited person under the law.
I've been putting together a pamphlet for law enforcement on Colorado gun laws and I haven't covered/researched the private party sale yet. but this is what I believe it correct.
ChunkyMonkey
10-12-2010, 21:20
so whose eyelash got suck in Marline's eye?
http://l-userpic.livejournal.com/19776973/504863 Great Jebus on a pogo stick! 5 pages in one day?!?
Call me skeptical but I usually hit the ignore button on people wanting to sell/buy, on this site, from out of state.
Bailey Guns
10-12-2010, 23:58
RE: the issue of buying out of state.
A resident of any state can purchase a long gun here in Colorado so long as the buyer's state of residence allows it. CA would be the obvious example of a state that prohibits their residents from purchasing out of state.
Notice the Colorado law only says that "it is lawful for a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or a licensed collector (licensed under the federal "Gun Control Act of 1968") whose place of business is in this state to sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a state contiguous to this state". That wording doesn't prohibit folks from other states buying long guns in Colorado assuming their state of residence allows it. In other words, it says it's OK for people from contiguous states to buy here. It doesn't prohibit residents of non-contiguous states from buying here. CBI approves transactions from pretty much any state for non-residents purchasing long guns here. In my experience the notable exception is California.
The same thing applies to CO residents buying outside CO. CO law says residents can purchase long guns in states contiguous to CO. It doesn't prohibit CO residents from purchasing in other states not contiguous to CO.
If it said CO residents can "only" purchase in states contiguous to CO, that would be a different story.
so whose eyelash got suck in Marline's eye?
Oh, just my own.. Through some fluke of genetics', I ended up with a set of eyelashes that about 98% of the female population can't achieve even with mascara.. Heck,,my own sisters threatened to cut cut them off in my youth..
BPTactical
10-13-2010, 07:34
Oh, just my own.. Through some fluke of genetics', I ended up with a set of eyelashes that about 98% of the female population can't achieve even with mascara.. Heck,,my own sisters threatened to cut cut them off in my youth..
Does this mean you only have one eyebrow?
[Stooge]
Does this mean you only have one eyebrow?
[Stooge]
Nope, no unibrow here... [Tooth]
Since the thread hijacks have already started...
If I wanted to give one of my Garands to my nephew (a minor) in TX, that would be okay for the feds and "look it up" for their state law as long as it was sent to a TX FFL for my sister or BIL to transfer?
But if I drive down there for Thanksgiving and make the gift in person to any family member, that is not okay by the feds and therefore not even worth looking up either state's laws?
Maybe's it would be better to send a Cabela's gift card so they can buy without my involvement, just not as many cool uncle points that way and of course more expensive.
Byte Stryke
10-13-2010, 23:48
Since the thread hijacks have already started...
If I wanted to give one of my Garands to my nephew (a minor) in TX, that would be okay for the feds and "look it up" for their state law as long as it was sent to a TX FFL for my sister or BIL to transfer?
But if I drive down there for Thanksgiving and make the gift in person to any family member, that is not okay by the feds and therefore not even worth looking up either state's laws?
Maybe's it would be better to send a Cabela's gift card so they can buy without my involvement, just not as many cool uncle points that way and of course more expensive.
UNCLE XJ!!!
I want a Garand TOO!
[Tooth]
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