View Full Version : Person on probation and firearms in the house
Long story short, I am living at home (my parents) and my older brother is on probation after a drug possession charge. The address the court has on file is the same address on my CCW, and they asked if there were firearms in the house. Without causing a stink with officers (I know better), I told them yes, and where they were. He said he could come back with a warrant and police officers and confiscate the guns which I legally own, including my conceal carry firearm. I currently have the long guns in the trunk of my car unloaded in a locked hard sided case. The probation officer comes by after 7pm, on random days. What would be the best solution for me? I assume if I keep my handguns holstered or on my body it is alright, but should I invest in a strong sided safe for the long guns? Or keep them in storage till he changes the address for his probation with the courts? As far as I understood the guns simply had to be out of reach from the person on probation, so locked away somewhere correct?
Ok maybe that wasn't a short story....
Cliffs:
Brother is on probation and back at home temporarily.
Long guns are locked up in my trunk.
Don't know what to do about hand guns
Don't know if I can keep them in the house and locked away or not.
man that sucks, its never good when the law gets involved, if your in denver you can keep them in my closet till he changes the address, my house is safe and secure
That is an excellent question.
newracer
10-18-2010, 21:23
Have him move, you move, or put your guns elsewhere.
ETA: contact the probation officer for the answer and get it in writing
Have him move, you move, or put your guns elsewhere.
ETA: contact the probation officer for the answer and get it in writing
He told me that he would get a warrant and confiscate the weapons. He is changing the address after the probation officer makes his first visit (sometime this week), so I have no problem storing the long guns in storage till then. However, I am curious about my handguns, and whether or not I can still carry them in my house.
68Charger
10-18-2010, 21:37
I know someone on lifetime probation- his wife has some firearms that were willed to her by her father, so she doesn't want to give them up- they're locked in a safe in the home, and he (one on probation) does not have the key- they have been to his house many times, and don't have an issue with it... as long as he doesn't have "possession"
YMMV, depends on the probation officer's attitude about it- if they want to make a stink about it, you won't be having any fun fighting them. I'd remove all firearms from the house, and discuss the issue with his probation officer to see their attitude- if it goes bad, and they get a search warrant, you're clear, no firearms in the house with the probation-ee.
I'll second the GET IT IN WRITING... they can change their mind later, and try to use it as leverage. At some point they may be convinced he's hiding something, and they'll use anything they can to go after him, even if they're wrong.
I know someone on lifetime probation- his wife has some firearms that were willed to her by her father, so she doesn't want to give them up- they're locked in a safe in the home, and he (one on probation) does not have the key- they have been to his house many times, and don't have an issue with it... as long as he doesn't have "possession"
YMMV, depends on the probation officer's attitude about it- if they want to make a stink about it, you won't be having any fun fighting them. I'd remove all firearms from the house, and discuss the issue with his probation officer to see their attitude- if it goes bad, and they get a search warrant, you're clear, no firearms in the house with the probation-ee.
I'll second the GET IT IN WRITING... they can change their mind later, and try to use it as leverage. At some point they may be convinced he's hiding something, and they'll use anything they can to go after him, even if they're wrong.
So if the probation officer says it is ok for me to have my conceal carry piece in the house just have him sign a quickly written down piece of paper that it is ok?
I would get a storage unit till its over with. Would it be worth losing your guns over? If they told me they would get a search warren and come for my guns I'd be pissed. I'm pissed they threatned you that way. Like you broke a law yourself. When their all empty motherfucker. Not that you want to say that out loud. Sorry if I sound angry but ive had Denver violate my second amndment rights before. Yea I had all my firearms in a storage for several months.
I would get a storage unit till its over with. Would it be worth losing your guns over? If they told me they would get a search warren and come for my guns I'd be pissed. I'm pissed they threatned you that way. Like you broke a law yourself. When their all empty motherfucker. Not that you want to say that out loud. Sorry if I sound angry but ive had Denver violate my second amndment rights before. Yea I had all my firearms in a storage for several months.
I don't see why it is an issue either. He has had this address registered for as long as he has had a criminal record, and I have never been denied a firearm purchase, or my CCW, so honestly I don't see why it is an issue.
ChunkyMonkey
10-18-2010, 22:22
He told me that he would get a warrant and confiscate the weapons. He is changing the address after the probation officer makes his first visit (sometime this week), so I have no problem storing the long guns in storage till then. However, I am curious about my handguns, and whether or not I can still carry them in my house.
Good luck with getting warrant against you. But again, Denver is weird when it comes to these kind of stuffs.
Make sure you dont have 30 rd magazines etc etc. The LE can be a dick if he/she wants to once they know they can pick on you. Nevertheless, for the one bad experience I had, I have had plenty more good ones.
Good luck with getting warrant against you. But again, Denver is weird when it comes to these kind of stuffs.
Make sure you dont have 30 rd magazines etc etc. The LE can be a dick if he/she wants to once they know they can pick on you. Nevertheless, for the one bad experience I had, I have had plenty more good ones.
Im gonna guess SHE [Coffee] Just kidding. But that sucks
get it in writing and do not trust the police
BPTactical
10-19-2010, 08:02
Remove all firearms from the home immediately. Not only could it put you in a sticky spot for enabling access to firearms by a prohibited person but it could get your brother tossed in the can as a violation of his probation.
Can the probation officer get a warrant with minimal proof that a crime has been committed? Absofrickinlutly! When placed on probation the individual gives up "a reasonable expectation of privacy". With being in the same house you are unfortunate enough to suffer the collateral damage of your brothers F-up.
You are in Denver which means their legal system, legal or not marches to its own drum. They are home rule, and what might be acceptable in Littleton is not in Denver.
Could your brother have been imprisoned for than a year? If yes there is the chance of Federal law being violated. Although he is not attempting to purchase a firearm if they are unsecured and he COULD have access it is very likely in violation. Is you CCW weapon secured on your hip? Good question.
It may well be worth your while to consult an attorney who is familiar with probation and Denver.
Byte Stryke
10-19-2010, 09:01
Remove all firearms from the home immediately. Not only could it put you in a sticky spot for enabling access to firearms by a prohibited person but it could get your brother tossed in the can as a violation of his probation.
Can the probation officer get a warrant with minimal proof that a crime has been committed? Absofrickinlutly! When placed on probation the individual gives up "a reasonable expectation of privacy". With being in the same house you are unfortunate enough to suffer the collateral damage of your brothers F-up.
You are in Denver which means their legal system, legal or not marches to its own drum. They are home rule, and what might be acceptable in Littleton is not in Denver.
Could your brother have been imprisoned for than a year? If yes there is the chance of Federal law being violated. Although he is not attempting to purchase a firearm if they are unsecured and he COULD have access it is very likely in violation. Is you CCW weapon secured on your hip? Good question.
It may well be worth your while to consult an attorney who is familiar with probation and Denver.
+1
You have already been "Confronted" by a officer of the courts and threatened with search and seizure of your personal property and a removal of your second amendment rights. You need to consult an attorney otherwise you are unarmed in a very different battle.
+1
Get your shit out of there.
If it stored at a separate address in a secure facility I think it would be reasonable to believe that they would not be able to seize that property. Though again, See above.
I am not in Denver, I am in Lakewood.
ghettodub
10-19-2010, 09:56
Remove all firearms from the home immediately. Not only could it put you in a sticky spot for enabling access to firearms by a prohibited person but it could get your brother tossed in the can as a violation of his probation.
Can the probation officer get a warrant with minimal proof that a crime has been committed? Absofrickinlutly! When placed on probation the individual gives up "a reasonable expectation of privacy". With being in the same house you are unfortunate enough to suffer the collateral damage of your brothers F-up.
You are in Denver which means their legal system, legal or not marches to its own drum. They are home rule, and what might be acceptable in Littleton is not in Denver.
Could your brother have been imprisoned for than a year? If yes there is the chance of Federal law being violated. Although he is not attempting to purchase a firearm if they are unsecured and he COULD have access it is very likely in violation. Is you CCW weapon secured on your hip? Good question.
It may well be worth your while to consult an attorney who is familiar with probation and Denver.
Agreed +1
ChunkyMonkey
10-19-2010, 09:59
Sorry..the immediate reply made me assume you are in Denver.
BPTactical
10-19-2010, 10:17
Regardless of where you are, unass your fireams from the home immediately!
You are flirting with disaster for your family.
Bad enough your brothers choices put the family in a bind.
Don't let your actions do the same........
Long story short, I am living at home (my parents) and my older brother is on probation after a drug possession charge. The address the court has on file is the same address on my CCW, and they asked if there were firearms in the house. Without causing a stink with officers (I know better), I told them yes, and where they were. He said he could come back with a warrant and police officers and confiscate the guns which I legally own, including my conceal carry firearm. I currently have the long guns in the trunk of my car unloaded in a locked hard sided case. The probation officer comes by after 7pm, on random days.
Your story sounds bizarre.
Why is the probation officer coming out to your house for random surprise visits? Once for an inspection and a meeting with the family is to be expected, but it seems as if he's taken an unusual interest in your brother for some reason. It sounds like he has too much time on his hands. Get an attorney NOW.
There are numerous precedents which show that family members of a prohibited person cannot be penalized or have their guns confiscated, absent significant factors such as allowing the prohibited person unrestricted access to the guns or taking him along to the range or on hunting trips. "Constructive possession" means that he could access a gun, or ammo, if he wished to do so. All you need to do is put a deadbolt on your bedroom door and keep it locked when you are out. Also, if you are not already doing so start paying your parents rent on the room -- even $20 a month -- and type up a simple "lease" or rental agreement. If you are paying rent and you have the only key, much more difficult for them to lawfully execute a warrant and seizure that would hold up in court.
You have done nothing wrong and are not a criminal. If your brother's probation officer has threatened you, you need to get a lawyer and file a formal complaint with his supervisor. It is possible your brother may be assigned a new PO.
Your story sounds bizarre.
Why is the probation officer coming out to your house for random surprise visits? Once for an inspection and a meeting with the family is to be expected, but it seems as if he's taken an unusual interest in your brother for some reason. It sounds like he has too much time on his hands. Get an attorney NOW.
There are numerous precedents which show that family members of a prohibited person cannot be penalized or have their guns confiscated, absent significant factors such as allowing the prohibited person unrestricted access to the guns or taking him along to the range or on hunting trips. "Constructive possession" means that he could access a gun, or ammo, if he wished to do so. All you need to do is put a deadbolt on your bedroom door and keep it locked when you are out. Also, if you are not already doing so start paying your parents rent on the room -- even $20 a month -- and type up a simple "lease" or rental agreement. If you are paying rent and you have the only key, much more difficult for them to lawfully execute a warrant and seizure that would hold up in court.
You have done nothing wrong and are not a criminal. If your brother's probation officer has threatened you, you need to get a lawyer and file a formal complaint with his supervisor. It is possible your brother may be assigned a new PO.
What happened was he has been living on his own, he got caught with the shrooms at a traffic stop a few years ago (late 2008) and they just now served him the warrant for his arrest in Lakewood. Since the last known address on file with the courts was our parents he had to move back in temporarily till he can change that, but he has to wait till he's met with the PO a few times. I am not worried about my brother taking the guns, he isn't a violent criminal, I am worried about the police taking my guns because he is on probation living in the same house.
Sorry..the immediate reply made me assume you are in Denver.
Nope, over in Lakewood. No worries =] Though, Lakewood cops tend to be more dick headish than Denver cops. Seems they have more time on their hands to hassle people about stuff. Not saying they are all like that, but a few of the ones i've dealt with haven't been as friendly as Denver.
gnihcraes
10-19-2010, 20:41
I'll ask at work tomorrow on this. (denver) The rules should be the same. Get anything you can in writing from the P.O.
It's just like a if your spouse does something wrong and commits a sex offense, now you are part of the game too if still living with the offender. House is now part of his problems because it's his legal residence. Same if you rent a hotel room monthly, that is the residence, they can search at will.
Again, I'll check tomorrow and post the info.
SouthPark
10-20-2010, 11:15
IMHO, the P.O. is way over the line of his authority. This needs to be brought to the attention of defense counsel because this could be a disciplinary offense for the P.O. to make this kind of demand. Under no circumstances should a search be consented to, period. It's a warrant or no deal. The convict is the one under orders, not you. When dealing with bureaucrats, get a lawyer when in doubt, e.g. Tony Fabian.
IMHO, the P.O. is way over the line of his authority.
Not really. Having the firearms in the same home is viewed as "facilitating the possession" and therefore they can be confiscated (though not permanently).
The Parole Officer's multiple visits lead me to believe that this is either not your brother's first offense or that he got busted with some hard drugs. Either way, the PO is in fact being nice by giving you fair warning. In most cases, you would not have received this courtesy.
My suggestion is for you (the OP) to purchase the best safe you can afford and then rent space in someone else's home. DO NOT PLACE YOUR FIREARMS IN A STORAGE FACILITY.
It's true that you can keep them in a safe in your own home but, if the PO wants to "prove a point", he can easily argue that your brother could still have access to them.
I'll ask at work tomorrow on this. (denver) The rules should be the same.
The Diversion Program is part of the Department of Corrections and therefore managed at State level.
IMHO, the P.O. is way over the line of his authority. This needs to be brought to the attention of defense counsel because this could be a disciplinary offense for the P.O. to make this kind of demand. Under no circumstances should a search be consented to, period. It's a warrant or no deal. The convict is the one under orders, not you. When dealing with bureaucrats, get a lawyer when in doubt, e.g. Tony Fabian.
He isn't over his authority and he didn't demand anything. He simply told me what could happen, and I am wondering if it is something to worry about. Besides, we have no choice but to consent to a search since he is on probation, however they can only search the room he stays in and any room they go through on their way to his room. (the stairs, hallway closet, living room, and bathroom) Since they never go by my room they can't do an at-will search of it. I do have a lawyer and I have talked to him, but he can't do anything for me till anything happens because he doesn't know what laws they would say I was breaking since they could say I was breaking several. Anyway I pretty much have it figured out, my long guns have been stashed in a friends safe, and my handgun is either holstered or locked in my glove compartment. The PO came over last night and didn't even come in he just made sure my brother was there for curfew and said Good night.
I agree with not storing firearms in a rented storage unit. Storage units are broken into regularly, sometimes by staff. They are not secure.
As long as your brother physically cannot enter your room you are technically within the law. At a bare minimum replace the doorknob with a keyhole in the knob lock. Simple to swap out and it is under $15 at any hardware store. You should also lock all your gun cases. Small luggage sized padlocks are cheap. Make sure no ammunition is where he can access it, as ammo is a charge as well.
If you leave firearms and ammo in an unlocked room that he could enter, that could constitute facilitation if they wanted to pursue it. Unlikely they'd ding you with a federal felony but they might well confiscate your unsecured guns.
Lock your room. Replace that doorknob tonight. Don't give anyone a copy of your key. Prohibited person now cannot access those firearms and you are good to go.
I agree with not storing firearms in a rented storage unit. Storage units are broken into regularly, sometimes by staff. They are not secure.
As long as your brother physically cannot enter your room you are technically within the law. At a bare minimum replace the doorknob with a keyhole in the knob lock. Simple to swap out and it is under $15 at any hardware store. You should also lock all your gun cases. Small luggage sized padlocks are cheap. Make sure no ammunition is where he can access it, as ammo is a charge as well.
If you leave firearms and ammo in an unlocked room that he could enter, that could constitute facilitation if they wanted to pursue it. Unlikely they'd ding you with a federal felony but they might well confiscate your unsecured guns.
Lock your room. Replace that doorknob tonight. Don't give anyone a copy of your key. Prohibited person now cannot access those firearms and you are good to go.
yeah thats what i gathered. the firearms were locked away in a safe place in my room so i figured i was ok. but on the safe side i stashed them at a friends place except for my main carry piece which is in the glove box
but on the safe side i stashed them at a friends place except for my main carry piece which is in the glove box
Well done! [Beer]
What happened was he has been living on his own, he got caught with the shrooms at a traffic stop a few years ago (late 2008) and they just now served him the warrant for his arrest in Lakewood. Since the last known address on file with the courts was our parents he had to move back in temporarily till he can change that.
Now wait a minute...lets take a long look at this...If the address the court had for him was an appartment that he used to be living in and had been evicted from...would they require him to move back into it? Why should he have to move anywhere just because that was the address he had been living at at one time?
Moreover...why should the homeowner and other residents be forced to endure un-warrented searches because of this?
I would be screaming bloody murder over this.
Who owns the house? What are they on probation for? You don't have to answer that, but you should know those things.
In order for a person on probation or parole to live in that house, the owner of the house signs a sponsor agreement. That agreement waives their right to search and seizure. So if mom and dad own the house, then they agreed to let him live there, and by definition, waive their rights to privacy, and search and seizure, to allow him to live there.
I am not certain how probation is doing it right now, but parole obtains a signed agreement, and then requires all weapons, regardless of working condition to be removed prior to the person under supervision moving in. If that was their residence prior to the conviction, then the weapons must be removed immediately, and the officer has the right to inspect to make sure this has been done. This then becomes a condition of the parole or probation placement and no firearms are allowed in the residence.
Nobody has over stepped their authority. Someone broke the law and this is one of the consequences. They are not allowed to use, own, or possess firearms, and this restriction may remain in place after the term of probation or parole expires, depending on the conviction.
Now the sponsor has a right to say no, I'm not giving up my guns. That's fine. Then the person under supervision has to find another place to live. Its that simple.
Parole and probation have the statutory right to make unannounced visits to the house, at any time, and conduct a search. The person under supervision must allow them to search his person, his house, his car, and or any property under his control at any time. And as stated, if weapons were found, the person under supervision could be charged, have their probation or parole revoked, and be put in jail. In addition, the person who allowed access to the guns could also be charged, although that seldom happens.
Officers do understand that others in the home may own and carry firearms. But they can not violate the law with regard to the supervision. Seldom have I seen a family member prosecuted for this, but it could happen. So to be safe, I'd just move my guns out, or move out myself. I wouldn't want this person to do something stupid in the house, and end up under suspicion myself.
Better to be safe then sorry. But this was a choice for him/her to commit a crime, and it was a choice to allow him to live there. So now, you have to live with the consequences of those choices.
Just a side note, probation officers are officers of the court, but they are not peace officers. Parole officers are peace officers (state police officers). Parole officers can arrest anyone, even if they are not on parole, (like any other police officer) probation will report the violation to the court and the court will then issue a warrant if needed. In either case, this is not something to be fooled with.
gnihcraes
10-22-2010, 20:24
Probation Officer will arrest, if the person has violated the terms and conditions. No need for the warrant. They can and will detain and call local PD/Sheriff and have them do the arrest.
wow good info in this and interesting situation.
I would not mess around and would find a place to store them other than maybe one handgun that you keep for your CCW on you at all times.
Statutory advisement courtesy of the State of Colorado parole intake documents.
COLORADO LAW
C.R.S. 18-12-108. POSSESSION OF WEAPONS BY PREVIOUS OFFENDERS.
A PERSON COMMITS THE CRIME OF POSSESSION OF A WEAPON BY A PREVIOUS OFFENDER IF THE PERSON KNOWINGLY POSSESSES, USES, OR CARRIES UPON HIS OR HER PERSON A FIREARMS AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 18-1-109 (3)(h) OR ANY OTHER WEAPON THAT IS SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF THIS ARTICLE SUBSEQUENT TO THE PERSON’S CONVICTION FOR A FELONY, OR SUBSEQUENT TO THE PERSON’S CONVICTION FOR ATTEMPT OR CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT A FELONY, UNDER COLORADO LAW OR ANY OTHER STATE’S LAW OR UNDER FEDERAL LAW.
FEDERAL FIREARMS CONTROL ACT
TITLE 18 UNITED STATES CODE OF THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968, AS AMENDED, PROVIDES: “ANY PERSON WHO...HAS BEEN CONVICTED BY A COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OR OF A STATE OR ANY SUB-DIVISION THEREOF, OF A FELONY...WHO RECEIVES, POSSESSES, OR TRANSPORTS IN COMMERCE, OR AFFECTING COMMERCE...ANY FIREARMS, SHALL BE FINED NOT MORE THAN $250,000.00 OR IMPRISONED FOR NOT MORE THAN FIVE YEARS, OR BOTH, WITHOUT PAROLE.” CERTAIN OFFENDERS CAN SUFFER ADDITIONAL PENALTIES.
THE ABOVE LAWS REMAIN IN EFFECT AFTER DISCHARGE OF YOUR SENTENCE OR PERIOD OF PAROLE. A VIOLATION OF THE ABOVE LAWS MAY RESULT IN PROSECUTION IN FEDERAL OR STATE COURT.
Keep in mind that these are specific parole documents. Probation is similar. And even though you may be on probation for committing a crime that is not a felony, probation can put additional restrictions on the person for the term of the probation. So things that are not normally illegal, are not allowed for the person on probation. For instance, it is common for them to place a no alcohol restriction. That means that you can not use own or possess, or consume, any product or medication that contains alcohol. Nor are you to enter into bars, lounges, or liquor stores, or any establishments whose main purpose is the distribution or sale of alcohol.
Basically a lot of your freedoms are removed or restricted by the court while under supervision. And those that live with the person, may have a similar loss in their rights for the duration of the supervision.
big bummer, that dosen't seem fair.[Bang]
big bummer, that dosen't seem fair.[Bang]
Go read the Lautenberg Ammendment.
AK545Man
10-25-2010, 12:16
I would just remove them from house until your brother moves or his probation is over. I served in home detention for not completing dui classes and had to remove my firearms from my house until it was over. I couldn't even allow my pops who carries his .45 on him to bring his inside. It's just not worth the hassle. The one time you would think it would be okay would be the wrong day to do it. That would be my luck anyway.
Just wait for the day when you can bring them back inside. I was happy when the Denver Sheriff Department said I was clear to bring mine back home!
SouthPark
10-25-2010, 13:39
Not really. Having the firearms in the same home is viewed as "facilitating the possession" and therefore they can be confiscated (though not permanently).
Hm, where did you get your info about this? I want to read up on it a bit more.
I have found a solution. I have them stored at a friends house, and I carry my ccw on me at all times. The po has come over and inspected my room and found nothing wrong with it.
The po has come over and inspected my room and found nothing wrong with it.
Did he actually open drawers and look in your closet and under the bed?
Did he actually open drawers and look in your closet and under the bed?
can't look under the bed. and he didnt check the drawers but i have him on video inspecting and ok'ing my room, which means that if and only IF something does happen and I have to go to court, I have evidence showing that he had ok'd the room. Whether or not he checked my drawers would be irrelevant at that point (according to my brothers lawyer) and its not illegal for me to video tape him in my own house without his knowledge (especially since we have a notice on the front lawn of video surveillance being in use).
blah anyway, the issue has been resolved. besides my brother should be changing the address on file soon.
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