View Full Version : Be careful metering out our powder
http://i.imgur.com/q1TPX.jpg
wants to warn everyone about using powder that does not meter well from powder measures. Thankfully these were subsonic loads. Had they been full power I would probably have ended up in the hospital.
Photo by John Noveske
That's three rounds stuck in the bore of a barrel. The first was a squib, the second and third were loaded for a velocity of 1000 ft/sec (4.0gr IMR Trail Boss, 55gr fmj pill). It appears that the second did not touch the first, probably air pressure prevented that from happening. The third caused the core of the second to "squirt" out the front and into that cavity. The meplat of the first was poking out past the crown.
Wow... so are their any details on what he was using/doing/etc? No one hurt I'm assuming?
Also, could you explain what I'm looking at. I'm assuming the brass is bullets... the grey inside of the brass is lead?
Was he not reciving hits or did the barrel bulge or what? i.e. how did he know he had a squib, etc?...
Sry, I like details.
\
Also, could you explain what I'm looking at. I'm assuming the brass is bullets... the grey inside of the brass is lead?
Was he not reciving hits or did the barrel bulge or what? i.e. how did he know he had a squib, etc?...
Sry, I like details.
It says right in the thread.
WOW, hopefully no one was hurt!!
Wow... so are their any details on what he was using/doing/etc? No one hurt I'm assuming?
Also, could you explain what I'm looking at. I'm assuming the brass is bullets... the grey inside of the brass is lead?
Was he not reciving hits or did the barrel bulge or what? i.e. how did he know he had a squib, etc?...
Sry, I like details.
It says right in the thread.
Rgr Thanks... I got that. I didn't type comprehensibly apparently (hardly ever do). I'll try to be more clear. The first questions were more rhetorical since yes, the answers were in the thread. The second set of questions is where I wanted more details. Did he have to cut the barrel in half, etc.
I was wondering that myself, since I didn't see any bulges or anything. I remember seeing a thread some where of a bulged barrel, and I couldn't even tell in the picture, so I figured that must be the case here.
I was wondering that myself, since I didn't see any bulges or anything. I remember seeing a thread some where of a bulged barrel, and I couldn't even tell in the picture, so I figured that must be the case here.
Looks like he cut away the barrel with an end mill....there is a slight bulge just behind the threads at the muzzle. I gotta think even though these were subsonic loads that the recoil would have been weird with all the gas exhausting at the breech....
Byte Stryke
10-22-2010, 15:07
There are really easy ways to prevent this.
http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/198856/3407731/0/1174999924/compound_bow.jpg
yeah, I think its about as relevant.
Never would have happened if that barrel was running Linux.
What the hell barrel platform is that?
What the hell barrel platform is that?
Looks like a .22 caliber threaded for a suppressor, based on the load description, I gotta think .223/5.56. I just ASSumed it was an AR variant of some kind...
This is a friend-of-a-friend from Facebook. I think he sent the barrel back to Noveske and they milled it in half to see what happened. He said it's a subsonic load, and I know he's a NFA-type shooter with some very spendy supressed SBR's in various exotic calibers, and a big fan of Noveske. He claims that type of powder didn't meter out correctly, and now weighs them to be sure. I quoted most of the discussion from the thread on it.
I've caught a squib in my M14, They don't make a sound when you squeeze the trigger. I guess maybe since these bullets made it past the gas port they did. Also why would you not stop shooting when the gun didn't feel right? Never hurts to check when things sound or feel weird, sure is cheaper than a barrel or worse.
There are really easy ways to prevent this.
http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/198856/3407731/0/1174999924/compound_bow.jpg
yeah, I think its about as relevant.
I don't think killing him is a really appropriate answer, but thanks for playing anyway.
68Charger
10-22-2010, 19:53
umm, full auto?
since these made it past the gas port, maybe they were enough to work the action?
That's the 1st scenario that comes to mind- when I have a round that just goes click, or doesn't feel right, I'll check to ensure it wasn't a squib...
You just have to cut the first few barrels in half to see if you did anything wrong. I don't see what the big deal is.
twitchyfinger
10-22-2010, 20:22
You just have to cut the first few barrels in half to see if you did anything wrong. I don't see what the big deal is.
I'll have to tell my old neighbor that since he likes to load them hot. So hot that he had a Ruger GP100 blow up in his face and broke the frame! After witnessing that it made me think twice about reloading.
I've reloaded a few rounds myself in the past week...scared to death to actually shoot them :p
gnihcraes
10-22-2010, 20:44
I've reloaded a few rounds myself in the past week...scared to death to actually shoot them :p
compare the weight of yours to a factory load. (whole cartridge) if identical bullet weight etc. If it makes you feel any better.
compare the weight of yours to a factory load. (whole cartridge) if identical bullet weight etc. If it makes you feel any better.
Pretty much what I've decided to do...
pretty cool to see the cutaway of the barrel and the projectiles in the barrel.
luckily those were subsonic or that would have ended extremely poorly.
good lesson and just another reminder to be careful with reloads on both spectrums; full power and subsonic.
theGinsue
10-22-2010, 22:51
Reloading can be very safe, if you follow all of the safety guidelines - like using established (published) load data and never exceed the manufacturers maximum load - at least not until you've really got plenty of reloading experience under your belt (personally, I've never seen the need to exceed the max loads.
I've reloaded a few rounds myself in the past week...scared to death to actually shoot them :p
careful is the key, i've reloaded and shot countless thousands of my reloaded rounds over the years, without any trouble. I stay below the max load stated in up to date manual's, I keep the door closed and phones and tv's off, so I have no distractions, and hand dump every powder charge in every case with my little tin powder pan. I use the lyman 1200 dps dumper/scale combo, double check the charge weight every 50 rounds with my slide bar scale, and after I fill my plastic tray I look at all of them in the light to double check if they all look even before going further, another trick that i have learned is to use a powder that consumes more than 50% of the case volume, so a double charge is imposible without a spill over.
SA Friday
10-23-2010, 10:10
careful is the key, i've reloaded and shot countless thousands of my reloaded rounds over the years, without any trouble. I stay below the max load stated in up to date manual's, I keep the door closed and phones and tv's off, so I have no distractions, and hand dump every powder charge in every case with my little tin powder pan. I use the lyman 1200 dps dumper/scale combo, double check the charge weight every 50 rounds with my slide bar scale, and after I fill my plastic tray I look at all of them in the light to double check if they all look even before going further, another trick that i have learned is to use a powder that consumes more than 50% of the case volume, so a double charge is imposible without a spill over.
This is not a mechanical failure on part of the firearm, reloading equipment, nor the powder itself. This is a reloader pushing things to the limit and not wanting to take a systematic approach to the reloading with the proper precautions.
It happens... It's learning from failure.
I've reloaded hundreds of thousands of pistol rounds that took less than 50% of the case volume (9mm 147gr bullets, titegroup powder). You look in each case, every time. I have yet to have a double charge or squib with this load, and only one squib ever. I caught it before it left the machine.
theGinsue
10-23-2010, 19:10
Sooo, I'm actually thinking that this thread really belongs in the Reloading Forum (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=103).
Either way, good info folks.
ChunkyMonkey
10-23-2010, 19:21
Slam down the gavel and ban the OP, Ginsue... You gotta exercise that power once awhile. [Tooth]
theGinsue
10-23-2010, 19:41
You crack me up.
I'm more inclined to give a good verbal tongue lashing (What? Huh? Oh, wrong site.... Never mind).
You see, I'm very OCD and have one of those "everything in it's proper place" sort of personalities. I get these nervous ticks when things are out of place - which is never good with a loaded .45 in my hand.
<joke>
SA Friday
10-24-2010, 11:32
You see, I'm very OCD and have one of those "everything in it's proper place" sort of personalities. I get these nervous ticks when things are out of place - which is never good with a loaded .45 in my hand.
<joke>
[Muaha] There are just reasons to not say stuff like that.
Molon_Labe-1775
10-24-2010, 16:55
Looks like a .22 caliber threaded for a suppressor, based on the load description, I gotta think .223/5.56. I just ASSumed it was an AR variant of some kind...
If I read that right.... 4 grains of powder? That's not a .223 round with 4 grains of powder. Those are in the range of pistol loads.
OgenRwot
10-24-2010, 18:33
This is a reloader pushing things to the limit and not wanting to take a systematic approach to the reloading with the proper precautions.
This is exactly right. No reason he should have gone full auto (if this was the case) or kept pulling the trigger. Sure a suppressor makes things quiet, but not THAT quiet.
If I read that right.... 4 grains of powder? That's not a .223 round with 4 grains of powder. Those are in the range of pistol loads.
Yep, and it's a pistol powder as well. However, it's a very voluminous powder so it takes up quite a bit of room in the case. It's designed for revolvers and lever action rifles like the 30-30 etc. It is common practice, however, to use pistol powders in 223 and 308 for subsonic rounds.
Byte Stryke
10-24-2010, 20:26
Yep, and it's a pistol powder as well. However, it's a very voluminous powder so it takes up quite a bit of room in the case. It's designed for revolvers and lever action rifles like the 30-30 etc. It is common practice, however, to use pistol powders in 223 and 308 for subsonic rounds.
Not being sarcastic or smartass,
Serious question:
Why would you want subsonic rounds in 223/308?
you cannot effectively zero or kill anything at range that way can you?
The trajectories would be awful
Asking for my betterment
Not being sarcastic or smartass,
Serious question:
Why would you want subsonic rounds in 223/308?
you cannot effectively zero or kill anything at range that way can you?
The trajectories would be awful
Asking for my betterment
you run subsonic ammo if your using a supressor, so you dont get the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier, i would think, not sure though.
CrufflerSteve
10-25-2010, 10:20
Would such rounds cycle an action? A rifle that shoots full bore .223 or .308 expects a certain amount of power and the subsonic probably wouldn't work. I suppose you could use bigger bullets but then you are getting into feeding and barrel twist issues.
Steve
From what I've read and understand, subsonics require you to manually cycle the bolt... so I don't know how they'd be useful in a FA...
I'm missing something I think. Also want to know the questions Byte asked for my betterment as well.
Can't you adjust the gas system? Same thing as running different types of loads through a Siaga.
Oh yeah, didn't think about that... but then back to original question, what about stopping/killing power at distance? Isn't the subsonic WAY lower in speed/etc?... are they just used for paperpunching, etc or is there an actual "tactical" use for them besides sound suppresion?
I don't have one, but I think that it is as important to have use subsonic loads for something that is already 800 yards away. Full power rounds through a suppressor, doesn't eliminate the supersonic crack, but without the muzzle blast, you don't hear the crack until the bullet goes by you, so it is still very difficult to locate.
Again, I don't know, but I assume that subsonic .308 through a suppressor is used for pretty close stuff.
hollohas
10-25-2010, 11:55
Also why would you not stop shooting when the gun didn't feel right? Never hurts to check when things sound or feel weird, sure is cheaper than a barrel or worse.
Big +1. You can tell when something isn't right. Bullet 1 recoil would have felt different. Bullet 2 would have felt WAY different. If you pull the trigger and something feels wrong...stop. Don't be like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1lyMyejpI) guy and just think it's a "bad primer". Check your barrel people.
It may belong in the reloader section, but I have reloaded may thousands of rounds each for pistol, rifle and shotgun. Not one single dud. I have had some shotgun shells that were a little light (I load them progressive and that can happen if you zone out) and let me tell you, you know it when they are light. Just pay attention to what you are doing when reloading AND when shooting and you'll avoid this.
Oh yeah, didn't think about that... but then back to original question, what about stopping/killing power at distance? Isn't the subsonic WAY lower in speed/etc?... are they just used for paperpunching, etc or is there an actual "tactical" use for them besides sound suppresion?
Suppressed ARs are generally SBR setups designed for building clearing, hostage rescue, etc., so they are typically designed for use under 100 meters. A 55 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 1000 fps would be pretty effective at 50 meters, and still dangerous at 100 meters, but pretty much useless at 250 meters. As far as gas systems go, there are ways around the reduced volumes and pressures involved, such as opening the gas port area, or even suing multiple ports to feed the system. It would be important to never fire full power ammo in such a gun, though, as it would be easy to over accelerate the bolt.
223 tactical 55 gr., .209 B.C.www.hornady.comRange (http://www.hornady.comRange) (yards)
.............. . Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps)1000 955 917 852 798 749 705
Energy (ft.-lb.)122 111 103 89 78 69 61
Trajectory (25 yd. z) -1.5 -0.8 -9.6 -58.9-155.9-307.0-519.6
Come Up in MOA-1.51.59.128.149.673.399.2
the bullet still would have more energy than a .22LR at 300 yards, but you'd have to aim almost 14 feet high....
Ah, interesting. Thanks TFogger.
Byte Stryke
10-25-2010, 13:49
Suppressed ARs are generally SBR setups designed for building clearing, hostage rescue, etc., so they are typically designed for use under 100 meters. A 55 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 1000 fps would be pretty effective at 50 meters, and still dangerous at 100 meters, but pretty much useless at 250 meters. As far as gas systems go, there are ways around the reduced volumes and pressures involved, such as opening the gas port area, or even suing multiple ports to feed the system. It would be important to never fire full power ammo in such a gun, though, as it would be easy to over accelerate the bolt.
223 tactical 55 gr., .209 B.C.www.hornady.comRange (http://www.hornady.comRange) (yards)
.............. . Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps)1000 955 917 852 798 749 705
Energy (ft.-lb.)122 111 103 89 78 69 61
Trajectory (25 yd. z) -1.5 -0.8 -9.6 -58.9-155.9-307.0-519.6
Come Up in MOA-1.51.59.128.149.673.399.2
the bullet still would have more energy than a .22LR at 300 yards, but you'd have to aim almost 14 feet high....
VERY good info Tfogger
I had not considered SBRs
I love the one:
Come up in MOA Come Up in MOA-1.51.59.128.149.673.399.2
Spotter: come up 400
Shooter: Umm... the scope Elevation doesn't go that far yo.
[LOL]
VERY good info Tfogger
I had not considered SBRs
I love the one:
Come up in MOA Come Up in MOA-1.51.59.128.149.673.399.2
Spotter: come up 400
Shooter: Umm... the scope Elevation doesn't go that far yo.
[LOL]
Kentucky windage at 500 yds: 43ft, 4 inches....about 4 1/2 Winnebagos....
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