View Full Version : 3gun matches in the Denver area
OK, since Aurora won't be hosting the 3Gun matches, who does close to Denver? Since I live in Broomfield, Pueblo is just too far to drive. Also, What happened to last weeks PSAC match at Aurora? Anybody know?
ETA, just found the reason for the PSAC cancellation.
OK, since Aurora won't be hosting the 3Gun matches, who does close to Denver? Since I live in Broomfield, Pueblo is just too far to drive.
Greeley runs 3-gun. Fourth Saturday.
Check www.coloradomultigun.com for more details.
Pueblo has not run 3-gun matches in many years. Now days all we run is rifle only stages with an occasional 22 side match.
I'm also looking for a good 3-gun match in the Denver area. I went to the Weld County match in January but I will not be going back there. It's really hard for me to believe that I have had so much trouble finding one.
Limited GM
02-04-2011, 06:29
I went to the Weld County match in January but I will not be going back there..
Care to disclose why?
The 2 hour drive each way was a bit much for a match I didn't feel was very organized so I figured out early that I probably wasn't going back. However, I ended up leaving after one stage from a mix of that, weather and what I felt was about to be a safety issue on the next one.
Maybe I'm just spoiled from shooting the monthy X3 match at Piru but I had higher hopes for continuing the sport out here. The search continues.
The 2 hour drive each way was a bit much for a match I didn't feel was very organized so I figured out early that I probably wasn't going back. However, I ended up leaving after one stage from a mix of that, weather and what I felt was about to be a safety issue on the next one.
Maybe I'm just spoiled from shooting the monthy X3 match at Piru but I had higher hopes for continuing the sport out here. The search continues.
what was the safety issue?
Zak Smith
02-04-2011, 23:44
The 2 hour drive each way was a bit much for a match I didn't feel was very organized so I figured out early that I probably wasn't going back. However, I ended up leaving after one stage from a mix of that, weather and what I felt was about to be a safety issue on the next one.
Maybe I'm just spoiled from shooting the monthy X3 match at Piru but I had higher hopes for continuing the sport out here.
I do understand the travel issue. For years I would drive to Aurora, Pueblo, and Raton on a monthly basis. That's a lot of miles. When I started to run 3-Gun at Weld, I had to drop some of those just because of the time commitment of travel.
I am sorry you did not find the match satisfying. Although this region is rich in terms of high level 3-Gun shooters, we don't get many of them to the Weld match for a variety of reasons. With a few exceptions, this means the guys shooting Weld County are almost all relatively new to 3Gun and do not have RO or match-running experience. As a result, although I do have a surplus of "labor" for match setup, what I don't have are "Lieutenants" who can design complex stages and then direct the helpers exactly what to get from the storage building and where to put it to build the stage. So in the absence of other people designing stages, what we end up with are stages that look somewhat similar, because after getting everything together the night before, I'm usually thinking about what to do about the time I pull into the range at 7.30 AM on Saturday. This is not an excuse, just a description of why things are how they are.
I'll admit it straight out that my stages for local 3Gun matches are not elaborate. I tend to make stages that look simple and have a simple stage description, but are hard to shoot clean and fast. And if people have an especially hard time with something, chances are good I'm going to include it until people don't trip over it so hard. The "brick" and the strong/weak handed rifle and pistol shooting fall into this category.
Just about every match I let people know that they are welcome to think up a stage design and then build it at the next match-- as long as it's safe we can try it. The Weld county range has a huge number of props and targets and so forth, all we need to utilize as much of it as we want is someone to design the stage and make sure it gets built right. If you want better stages, come with some designs and make them happen. (Also, FWIW, at Weld we can only shoot shotgun on the one berm.)
100% of the money from the Weld County matches goes to the WCFW shooting club itself, not 3Gun and not me. I actually lose money running the matches when you figure in travel, overhead, misc supplies, etc. When I "comp" people who show up before 8.30 a free match, and we only have 14 people, that means the club gets maybe 60 or 100 bucks for the match, so they're not getting a whole lot either (but it pays for the targets we use and they haven't complained about it either).
By the way 3Gun at Aurora went away because the AGC board hates action shooters and 3Gunners in particular.
And hey, if you think it sucks and I'm a jerk, then by all means go start your own 3Gun matches. I know Byers and some range NE of Ault both want to host monthly 3Gun matches. Frankly, I'd love to be able to just show up, help a bit, pay, and shoot stages someone else designed and put together.
If you're "spoiled" by the matches where you came from, then maybe this is the opportunity to learn how much effort goes into making a great monthly match.
The weather was pretty crummy, really cold and really windy, so our stage design reflected that in January. I'm not going to set up a bunch of barricades and paper targets when they are going to be blown away. Heck, by the time we got the shotgun berm, the tables we had set up had actually been blow halfway across the range. The weather was tough and I don't begrudge anyone for deciding to leave early because of that. Actually, when we got to that stage I took a vote whether people wanted to shoot it once as pistol and once as shotgun or shoot it as a monolithic pistol/shotgun stage to finish up quicker and everyone wanted to just shoot it as one stage.
what I felt was about to be a safety issue on the next one.
This is complete bullshit. The next stage was a pistol only stage with only a little bit of forward movement and no targets were close to the 180. There was no safety issue. The other two experienced guys who have been RO's at the RM3G Nationals for years (and shoot USPSA regularly) didn't have any problems, and they would have if there was a safety issue. Same deal on the last stage (pistol/shotgun).
Safety is everyone's responsibility, so beyond nodding at the safety briefing, if there is a safety issue, you need to bring it up to the RO or MD when you see the problem. If you don't want to do it in public, wave him aside and tell him privately. You didn't say anything at the match about it, and you didn't say anything to me privately after the match via email. I don't think you were present for the second stage's briefing, and you were not present the last stage's briefing or when either of them were shot. It's improper in my opinion to malign a match (and, well, me) based on speculation alone. And it's chickenshit to do it on a web forum instead of bringing it to the attention of match staff directly.
My percieved safety concern was standing on an unstable platform while winds were blowing that were strong enough to cause people to lose their balance on firm ground. Maybe a call was made after I left to abandon that aspect. I should have clarified that in the original reply. I realize now that it's not a great idea to claim safety problems at a shoot without being specific. Still, phrases like "This is complete bullshit" may not be most effective way to start a defense. I certainly wasn't expecting an essay.
Regardless of that, having all 16 or 17 shooters on one squad and spending over an hour and a half on a 2 minute stage that required almost no reset is something I couldn't handle.
Zak Smith
02-05-2011, 09:37
My percieved safety concern was standing on an unstable platform while winds were blowing that were strong enough to cause people to lose their balance on firm ground. Maybe a call was made after I left to abandon that aspect. I should have clarified that in the original reply. I realize now that it's not a great idea to claim safety problems at a shoot without being specific. Still, phrases like "This is complete bullshit" may not be most effective way to start a defense. I certainly wasn't expecting an essay.
Regardless of that, having all 16 or 17 shooters on one squad and spending over an hour and a half on a 2 minute stage that required almost no reset is something I couldn't handle.
http://www.coloradomultigun.com/local/WC3G-2011.01.html
Some notes: There were 14 shooters on stage 1, not 16 or 17 - 13 for the rest of the match after you left. I made the call to stay with one squad so we could more consistently deal with problems that would come up with the wind and a 6-man squad can be strapped for labor. We had one or two people show up late (ie after we started shooting the first stage) which changed the numbers. The rifle stage took longer than it should have, but it was because of the shoot times, which averaged close to 4 minutes (max time). There was less wind on the next stage because berm 1 is smaller and more enclosed. Maybe if there was more work to reset the rifle stage wouldn't have seemed so boring. Most people had a very hard time shooting it regardless of how easy it looked or how little work there was to do. We were done with tear down by about 3pm, so the match didn't go on forever. The weather was pretty unpleasant on that first stage
As for calling bullshit, I don't see a problem with it. Impugning a match and its staff for safety issues is serious business and when it's based on false speculation, that's what it is.
I wrote the rest for the benefit of people who have not been involved with Colorado area 3-Gun for the last eight years, to better understand why we have what we have and what is needed to revitalize it.
Limited GM
02-05-2011, 11:15
One thing that we all should remember and far from take for granted is these matches dont happen with out a lot of work by someone. That someone may have work, family obligations, etc to do ASAP after the match also. Help make it where the same people dont have to always do the sacrificing.
At one time I was hosting 9 matches a month. That alone was enough to take a sport I loved and convince me to take a 6-7 yr breather. Everyone has something better to do than build and tear down stages. I've lived/shot in 4 states and seen plenty of clubs go down hill. Always from lack of help. People need to realize this. They are the future of this sport. When they critic these efforts, it touched a nerve. Believe me.
*Zak-Pm incoming shortly.
trlcavscout
02-09-2011, 22:23
I would like to try 3 gun, but like everything else it is on saturdays and I work saturdays.
Zak Smith
02-09-2011, 23:14
RM3G-Raton March 20th, not a Saturday.
Pueblo rifle. 4th Sundays.
It's improper in my opinion to malign a match (and, well, me) based on speculation alone. And it's chickenshit to do it on a web forum instead of bringing it to the attention of match staff directly.
I agree, beyond 100%.
If you have a problem with something, bring it up right then and there.
All us match directors work our asses off to try and put on a good match. When a staff member or two dont show up or show up late things go downhill in a hurry. Also, finding a balance of how to challenge good shooters and not beat up the newer shooters is difficult at best.
If you felt the match was unorganized, get in touch with Zak and maybe offer to be there a few hours early to help herd the cats. Then maybe when people take shots at the match you will understand why you touched a nerve.
Having never done a 3gun... what goes into designing a stage or two? That sounds like a lot of fun to me. What is needed?
I agree, beyond 100%.
If you have a problem with something, bring it up right then and there.
All us match directors work our asses off to try and put on a good match. When a staff member or two dont show up or show up late things go downhill in a hurry. Also, finding a balance of how to challenge good shooters and not beat up the newer shooters is difficult at best.
If you felt the match was unorganized, get in touch with Zak and maybe offer to be there a few hours early to help herd the cats. Then maybe when people take shots at the match you will understand why you touched a nerve.
A big +1
Having never done a 3gun... what goes into designing a stage or two? That sounds like a lot of fun to me. What is needed?
A shitload of work.
A shitload of work.
Enlighten me please...
Enlighten me please...
come out and shoot one so we can show you :)
The guys that put these matches on month after month, year after year are just amazing. they give up time with there family's and money out of there pockets to put these matches on. To Hoser, Al, Zak and everyone else that put on 3gun, ipsc,idpa...etc.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! You guys are the heart and soul of the shooting community.
Zak Smith
02-25-2011, 22:30
It's like framing a house when you have no blueprint, using what stuff you can find in the back lot, and you need it done in 45 minutes. And it's got to meet code (safety) and look good (the right level of challenge)..
I'd break down stage design into these parts:
1 the idea/concept of the stage, how it will challenge shooters, etc
2 the composition of the physical elements to support #2
3. safety concerns
4. construction
5. tuning and safety inspection
Having a lot of labor helps #4 and #5. Experience is critical for #1-3, and 5.
-z
Zak Smith
02-27-2011, 01:13
Thanks for making the Feb match extra popular
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12676&page=4
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