A Cop's Advice on Dealing with Cops

[gnihcraes]

Nothing against LEO's, just information I saw and thought it was interesting.

Article/Slideshow about this subject. Looks like it might be a decent video to order too. (not promoting, just FYI)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/neill-franklin/a-cops-advice-on-dealing-_b_783387.html#s182292

As a 33-year law enforcement veteran and former training commander with the Maryland State Police and Baltimore Police Department, I know how easy it is to intimidate citizens into answering incriminating questions or letting me search through their belongings. This reality might make things easier for police looking to make an easy arrest, but it doesn't always serve the interests of justice. That's why I believe all citizens should understand how to protect their constitutional rights and make smart decisions when dealing with officers of the law.
Unfortunately, this important information has remained largely unavailable to the public, despite growing concerns about police misconduct and the excesses of the war on drugs. For this reason, I agreed to serve as a technical consultant for the important new film, 10 Rules for Dealing with Police (http://flexyourrights.org/10_rules). The 40-minute docudrama aims to educate the public about basic legal and practical survival strategies for handling even the scariest police encounters. It was produced by the civil liberties group Flex Your Rights and is narrated by former federal judge and acclaimed Baltimore trial lawyer William "Billy" Murphy, Jr.
The opening scene portrays Darren, a young black man getting pulled over. He's driving home from college. This is the fifth time he's been pulled over in a year. Frustrated and scared, Darren immediately breaks Rule #1: Always Be Calm & Cool. Mouthing off to the officer, Darren aggressively exits the car and slams the door. The officer overreacts, dropping Darren with a taser shot to his chest.
Should the officer have tased Darren in that situation? Probably not. Would the officer likely be disciplined? No. But that's not the main point of 10 Rules. The point is that the choices you make during the course of such encounters have a massive impact on whether it ends with a simple warning, a tasing -- or worse. This is true even if you've done nothing illegal.
While being calm and cool is key to getting the best possible outcome, it's not enough to keep police from violating your constitutional rights. For example, when the officer commandingly asks Darren "You're not hiding any AK-47s in there? You don't mind if I take a look?", Darren gets tricked like most people do.
Intimidated and unaware of other options, he consents to the search. The officer carelessly dumps his bags, accidentally shattering Darren's laptop on the asphalt. In another "what if" scenario, the officer finds a small amount of marijuana hidden away. While someone else might have left it there, Darren winds up getting arrested.
What few people understand, but police know all too well, is that your constitutional rights only apply if you understand and assert them. Unless they have strong evidence (i.e. probable cause) police need your permission to search your belongings or enter your home. The instant you grant them permission to invade your privacy, many of your legal protections go out the window and you're left on the hook for anything illegal the police find, as well as any damage they cause in the process.
Of course, even if you know your basic rights, police officers are trained to shake your confidence. If you refuse a search, I might respond by threatening to call in a drug-sniffing dog and sternly reminding you that things will go much easier if you cooperate. Creating a sense of hopelessness for the suspect enables us to break down their defenses and gain compliance. In the film, we show several variations on these common threats, but the main lesson is that it doesn't matter what the officer says; you still have to remain calm and protect your rights.
In today's world of smart phone video, YouTube and Twitter, stories of police abuse travel fast, creating greater awareness of the problem of police misconduct. Unfortunately, this heightened awareness often serves to reinforce the notion that "cops can do whatever they want." It's true that much work remains to be done towards ensuring police accountability, but the very first step is to educate the public about basic constitutional rights.
Citizens who understand their rights are much less likely to experience negative outcomes, both on the street and in a court of law. Until each of us has the ability to protect our individual rights and recognize injustices against others, we're not likely to accomplish much in the realm of broader policy reform.
I hope 10 Rules for Dealing with Police will be embraced by parents, teachers, activists, and even police departments as we work towards reducing the tension that too often characterizes the relationship between cops and the communities they serve.

[Byte Stryke]

I hope 10 Rules for Dealing with Police will be embraced by parents, teachers, activists, and Disregarded by police departments as we work towards Smoothing over the tension that too often characterizes the relationship between cops and the communities they Terrorize.


Fixed it for you :D


Just kidding, Some VERY good information here.
Not all LEOs are self-important abusive pricks.
Not all Citizens are Criminals.

[cstone]

This lecture series is one of the best presentations on dealing with law enforcement that I have ever watched. You don't need ten rules when one will do. The most important rule is: "Don't talk to the police."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#docid=6014022229458915912

If the link doesn't work, you can google "Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane

I share this as someone who knows.

[BigMat]

Sad as it is I got a lesson from my dad when I was a kid

My dad is a lawyer with 30+ years under his belt
I was a kid who did the usual dumb shit but nothing too serious

He said "whatever happens, whatever they pull you over for, don't say a thing much beyond "good evening sir" in the beginning, if they ask you for anything, just say "I would like to call my lawyer" and they will be pissed, but just do it, because they are out there to catch you for something and they will lie to you if they need too."

Mind you, he isn't anti-cop, nor am I, but the simple fact of the matter is, the consequences are too high to mess around with it.


This came in real handy once, and I believed it from then on

I was coming back to AZ from Mexico and they had a "drug sniffing" dog. thing walked by a friend and I several times, eventually sat down next to us, which was its tell. We didn't have a thing on us beyond some stupid hats and burritos quickly turning to poop. They took us into a back room and asked a ton of questions and tried to scare us pretty well. Asked to call my lawyer, said I had nothing, lo and behold, we get let go. No more questions, just knew we couldn't be scared into saying anything. To this day, I don't think that dog could smell a thing, they were probably just looking for people to react and had it sit next to us.

[KevDen2005]

Sad as it is I got a lesson from my dad when I was a kid

My dad is a lawyer with 30+ years under his belt
I was a kid who did the usual dumb shit but nothing too serious

He said "whatever happens, whatever they pull you over for, don't say a thing much beyond "good evening sir" in the beginning, if they ask you for anything, just say "I would like to call my lawyer" and they will be pissed, but just do it, because they are out there to catch you for something and they will lie to you if they need too."

Mind you, he isn't anti-cop, nor am I, but the simple fact of the matter is, the consequences are too high to mess around with it.

So you are saying, when the officer pulls you over for speeding and says, "Can I have your license, registration, and proof of insurance?" Your response is, "I would like to call my lawyer."

??????????????????????????????????


This came in real handy once, and I believed it from then on

I was coming back to AZ from Mexico and they had a "drug sniffing" dog. thing walked by a friend and I several times, eventually sat down next to us, which was its tell. We didn't have a thing on us beyond some stupid hats and burritos quickly turning to poop. They took us into a back room and asked a ton of questions and tried to scare us pretty well. Asked to call my lawyer, said I had nothing, lo and behold, we get let go. No more questions, just knew we couldn't be scared into saying anything. To this day, I don't think that dog could smell a thing, they were probably just looking for people to react and had it sit next to us.

[HBARleatherneck]

sure, if everytime you get pulled over for speeding, you tell them you want to call your lawyer, it will work out fine?!? only if they want to detain/arrest you. you dont have to answer any questions when you get pulled over for speeding. hand them your license/ registration/ poi, and sit quietly. start demanding a lawyer during a speeding ticket, see how that works out.

but, i am a firm believer in not talking to the leo. never volunteer information, basically when you are talking to anyone. unless it the hot chick at your local bar, and you drop the fact that you are a space shuttle door gunner. but thats different.

shut your pie hole. it will work out better for you.

[KevDen2005]

I just noticed that somehow my response to BIG Matt ended up embedded within the qoute. Wow, I feel stupid, I should proof read more often.


You can ask for a lawyer all you want on a traffic stop, you will probably still get a ticket. The only two things that have to occur for you to have a lawyer are 1. Being arrested (not free to leave) for a crime and 2. Having direct questions being asked to the arrestee about the crime.

[Elhuero]

having a "I'm a good guy" card really helps, at least in el paso county.

[KevDen2005]

I have to be honest. I hate tickets, and if you have a CCW, tell me that you have one, and are super nice...I really feel bad about writing a ticket and most likely will give a warning.


Obviously that doesn't work with every crime

[2ndChildhood]

having a "I'm a good guy" card really helps, at least in el paso county.

Do you mean CCW or some other ID?

[ShooterJM]

Do you mean CCW or some other ID?

El paso county? I'd guess military ID

[Bitter Clinger]

Yup, voluenteer NOTHING
Name
Rank
Division/company
THATS IT

jk.....sorta, just remember that LEO, even though the odds are he is a stand up guy, isnt asking to look in your trunk because he thinks he left his crock pot in there. He is asking because A- he has to ASK first in most cases and B- he thinks you have drugs, a dead body or the worst a GUN![ROFL1]

In all fairness in all of my vast 29 years of life, I have only ran across one asshole cop, and he was off duty, on private property(my aunts) giving my 12 year old cousin crap about his go-ped. He shut his hole when I threatened to call the cops! A uncle of mine has also spent about 30 years on the force with Saudi-Aurora, I have all the respect in the world for cops, it truly is a thankless job.

[HBARleatherneck]

I have all the respect in the world for cops, it truly is a thankless job.

A job that starts paying a kid with a few months part time at a community college academy,in the metro area at mid to high $40,000. I see $45-49k a year to start. not exactly thankless. i know teachers and cops. gods angels on earth.

[Byte Stryke]

seriously, whats with the "Guns in the trunk?"
and if I Have a few AKs and ARs in the trunk... its not illegal.
it would actually be more illegal to have the cops crockpot back there!


KevDen
in all honesty, how do you react to a firearm in the vehicle during a stop?
IE: No CCW BUT the firearm is in a glovebox, etc.

[Irving]

Yeah I don't understand the gun question either. Guns are legal to have in the car.

[Lochinver]

For some reason. It seems to be a facebook phenomenon to post up this question that you wake up in jail with said person and you are only allowed to say 4 words to that person. What do you say?

I get chided when I put up my simple but prudent answer.

My 4 words are:

"Say nothing, call lawyer"

[OneGuy67]

Not sure what to say...

Years ago, I was dating a snobby rich chick whose daddy was a high priced defense attorney here in Denver. We'd been dating for several months and I had met her dad, eaten dinner with the family, stayed over and got some nookie, etc., when she casually mentions in a conversation that her father says cops lie about everything and that she believes that because her daddy said it. Keep in mind, I WAS (and still am) A COP. Huge insult to me. We broke up shortly thereafter.

Do what you like when it comes to dealing with the police. We'll do what we have to, to deal with you. If you think calling your attorney is necessary for a traffic stop, you got a cell phone. Press hard while signing the ticket, you are making five copies.

[Byte Stryke]

Do what you like when it comes to dealing with the police. We'll do what we have to, to deal with you. If you think calling your attorney is necessary for a traffic stop, you got a cell phone. Press hard while signing the ticket, you are making five copies.


Not all cops are cool, not all of them are Just about enforcing the law.
the assertion is "If there isn't a crime, I Can't get an accommodation and without an accommodation I will never get a promotion. So we make a crime to further my career."

"No one is Innocent, you just haven't looked hard enough."

I've heard this from Aurora PD detective. Hell they spouted it in the Criminology classes back in '05.

But Seriously
I'm still waiting for an answer to the Guns in the trunk thing.

[OneGuy67]

Realistically, I can't answer that question without more questions.

First, why am I searching?

Second, was the vehicle or the driver involved in a criminal activity?

Third, what is the criminal history of the owner/driver?

Fourth, are all the firearms, legal firearms?

So, I'm going to assume I know what Byte is asking; he was stopped for a traffic violation, gave consent to search, isn't a convicted felon and there aren't any illegal controlled substances in the vehicle. In this situation, I would probably clear the serial numbers of the firearms to determine if they have been reported stolen and barring that, I would return Byte's documents to him and wish him a good day (maybe write a ticket...it is Byte after all [LOL])

[hollohas]

This sounds legit to me. I agree, just be polite and respectful if you have to deal with a LEO. 99% of the time they will be polite and respectful back. If you are a dick, most will continue to be professional but you're certainly increasing your odds that your rudeness will bite you in the ass. A warning may turn into a ticket, a ticket may turn into another for a cracked windshield, bald tires or for littering for throwing the first ticket on the ground. Don't get worked up. Why risk escalating it? Why not give LEO's the same common courtesy you give everyone else?

My father who is a veteran of the AZ Highway Patrol has always told me to never allow a search of my car.

Another standard questions is "have you had anything to drink today?" Even if you just had that one beer an hour ago while watching the game, don't say "Yes." While you might not be anywhere close to drunk, you saying "yes" means you're going to end up doing a road-side even if you explain you only had "one beer." Every single piss-drunk driver on the planet says they "only had one." To a police officer "I only had one" means it's time to make you walk the line to be sure...as they should. Drunk drivers suck. If you truly had more than "just one", don't drive in the first place.

[hollohas]

Press hard while signing the ticket, you are making five copies.

That's hilarious [ROFL1]

[OneGuy67]

This sounds legit to me. I agree, just be polite and respectful if you have to deal with a LEO. 99% of the time they will be polite and respectful back. If you are a dick, most will continue to be professional but you're certainly increasing your odds that your rudeness will bite you in the ass. A warning may turn into a ticket, a ticket may turn into another for a cracked windshield, bald tires or for littering for throwing the first ticket on the ground. Don't get worked up. Why risk escalating it? Why not give LEO's the same common courtesy you give everyone else?

My father who is a veteran of the AZ Highway Patrol has always told me to never allow a search of my car.

Another standard questions is "have you had anything to drink today?" Even if you just had that one beer an hour ago while watching the game, don't say "Yes." While you might not be anywhere close to drunk, you saying "yes" means you're going to end up doing a road-side even if you explain you only had "one beer." Every single piss-drunk driver on the planet says they "only had one." To a police officer "I only had one" means it's time to make you walk the line to be sure...as they should. Drunk drivers suck. If you truly had more than "just one", don't drive in the first place.


Actually, it is two beers. Always two beers. Even those who don't speak English can manage to say they had two beers.

If the officer smells alcohol and you deny drinking, yeppers, you is going to be asked to walk the imaginary line. One beer, two beer, three beer...don't matter.

It's funny...during my time as a patrol officer, I made over 500 DUI arrests and a large amount of those people stated they didn't feel drunk. These were people who were well over over the .08 BrAC for DUI and over the .10 BrAC that was in place during the majority of my patrol time.

[TFOGGER]

A wise man once said "A closed mouth gathers no foot".

I will continue my policy of being polite and cooperative in dealing with LEOs, but I won't offer up any information that is not required, other than perhaps my CCW permit. If he feels he has sufficient cause to search my vehicle, he should be able to convince a judge to sign off on a search warrant. I rarely drink, and if I do, I don't drive, so no issue there.

[Byte Stryke]

Realistically, I can't answer that question without more questions.

First, why am I searching?

Second, was the vehicle or the driver involved in a criminal activity?

Third, what is the criminal history of the owner/driver?

Fourth, are all the firearms, legal firearms?

So, I'm going to assume I know what Byte is asking; he was stopped for a traffic violation, gave consent to search, isn't a convicted felon and there aren't any illegal controlled substances in the vehicle. In this situation, I would probably clear the serial numbers of the firearms to determine if they have been reported stolen and barring that, I would return Byte's documents to him and wish him a good day (maybe write a ticket...it is Byte after all [LOL])

hardy har-har

my point, more to the point, is; when was the last time you pulled someone over and after running background and plates, etc. walked up to return the license, registration and POI and asked:
"Do you have a tunafish sandwich or any Grey Poupon in the car?"
"Do you have a Donut or any other pastries in the car?" ;)


But I tell you what... I have yet get pulled over and the cop doesnt ask if I have any drugs or alcohol or Guns.

Hint: NEVER reply, "got a fishing license?"
They get really nasty with the taser

[hollohas]

It's funny...during my time as a patrol officer, I made over 500 DUI arrests and a large amount of those people stated they didn't feel drunk. These were people who were well over over the .08 BrAC for DUI and over the .10 BrAC that was in place during the majority of my patrol time.

Very true. Everyone here has been at a BBQ or party where some piss-drunk fool won't listen to anyone and keeps saying "I'm not drunk, man!" It never fails.

[ERNO]

I think what I'm supposed to do, say, I am going to the gun range with gun's in the car in Maryland. A LEO pulls me over, I stay in the car with my hands on the wheel. I'm supposed to say to him that I have secured firearms on board. Unless he has probable cause to search my car other than seeing or smelling drugs or booze, or a suspect in a crime, like a naked firearm on the front or back seat. By saying that I have secured firearms means that I have the gun's in a closed case. If then, the LEO asks me if he can search my car, my rightful response would be to tell that LEO that he needs permission from his commanding officer to search my car.


Erno

[hollohas]

But I tell you what... I have yet get pulled over and the cop doesnt ask if I have any drugs or alcohol or Guns.



That's the thing with criminals, most are dumb and the dumbest ones sometimes answer "yes" to those questions. Makes easy work of catching them.

[OneGuy67]

A wise man once said "A closed mouth gathers no foot".

I will continue my policy of being polite and cooperative in dealing with LEOs, but I won't offer up any information that is not required, other than perhaps my CCW permit. If he feels he has sufficient cause to search my vehicle, he should be able to convince a judge to sign off on a search warrant. I rarely drink, and if I do, I don't drive, so no issue there.


Vehicle's are tricky in that regard, due to their mobility. The search warrant you mention isn't out of the realm of possibility, but the reality of the situation is, he is going to search without it, if he has P.C. Everything after that is the purvue of the court and all those lawyers everyone hates, but has on speed dial.

[OneGuy67]

I think what I'm supposed to do, say, I am going to the gun range with gun's in the car in Maryland. A LEO pulls me over, I stay in the car with my hands on the wheel. I'm supposed to say to him that I have secured firearms on board. Unless he has probable cause to search my car other than seeing or smelling drugs or booze, or a suspect in a crime, like a naked firearm on the front or back seat. By saying that I have secured firearms means that I have the gun's in a closed case. If then, the LEO asks me if he can search my car, my rightful response would be to tell that LEO that he needs permission from his commanding officer to search my car.


Erno

I can't comment on the gun laws in Maryland. I don't know them.

Here in COLORADO, I would say if you aren't a felon, if the firearms are lawful firearms and you don't have a round in the chamber of non-handguns, there isn't going to be an issue if the officer does search the vehicle. The question would be why the officer is searching the vehicle. Even telling the officer you have them in the vehicle in that manner and refusing a search isn't going to have you sitting on the curb wearing metal bracelets. The officer has to develop probable cause that a crime is about to occur, is occuring or will soon be occuring.

If the officer asks permission to search the vehicle, you can say no. Simple. No. The officer can ask if he could look at the firearms and you can say no.

One question, why do you think he need his commanding officer's permission to do his job?

Add to the fire, your thought of having a "naked firearm in the front or back seat"...what is a naked firearm? You can have a visible or concealed firearm in your vehicle and not violate any concealed carry law (Here in Colorado).

[Byte Stryke]

That's the thing with criminals, most are dumb and the dumbest ones sometimes answer "yes" to those questions. Makes easy work of catching them.

wow...
totally Missed that didn't we?


Why Yes officer, I have a Bottle of pills, 2 cases of Booze, a .45 ACP in my Pocket and 4 rifles.


It's still not a crime.
Yet they will use that as the "Probable cause" to dismantle your shit on the side of the road for you to reassemble when they are done.
"Its the letter of the law." Northglenn PD

[OneGuy67]

Damn Byte...you and Stuart seem to have a lot of police contact...we ought to get together for a beer sometime and discuss your criminal behavior. I guess I didn't stop the correct vehicles.

[HBARleatherneck]

i have never, ever had a cop ask me anything other than " do you know why I stopped you" and license, registration, and Proof of insurance. I have only been pulled over maybe 4 times total, in 20+ years of driving.



Yes you guys can have an Obama style beer a thon.

[Byte Stryke]

Damn Byte...you and Stuart seem to have a lot of police contact...we ought to get together for a beer sometime and discuss your criminal behavior. I guess I didn't stop the correct vehicles.

I was pulled over for "suspicion of DUI"
(read: I'm Bored and we haven't had any other stops tonight)
Passed the FST and when I was doing that they were searching the car because they had probably cause(not a typo).
They found my unloaded.380 secured in the trunk and Confiscated it "pending investigation".
When my BAC test came back the next morning... because you know, passing the Field Sobriety Test wasn't enough. I got a ride out to my stripped truck.
When I asked about my LCP at the Property officer I was informed that all weapons confiscated by the department are destroyed regardless of status.

[OneGuy67]

I was pulled over for "suspicion of DUI"
(read: I'm Bored and we haven't had any other stops tonight)
Passed the FST and when I was doing that they were searching the car because they had probably cause(not a typo).
They found my unloaded.380 secured in the trunk and Confiscated it "pending investigation".
When my BAC test came back the next morning... because you know, passing the Field Sobriety Test wasn't enough. I got a ride out to my stripped truck.
When I asked about my LCP at the Property officer I was informed that all weapons confiscated by the department are destroyed regardless of status.


Northglenn did this? Now, did you pass the SFST's or did you just believe you passed the SFST's? Since you provided a sample for a BAC test, I'm guessing you didn't pass them. I'm guessing you provided a breath sample, although I don't understand the delay..."When my BAC test came back the next morning". Breath tests are immediate (2 minutes, give or take a few seconds) and blood tests take a couple of weeks. If you were arrested under the suspicion of DUI, then a search of the vehicle isn't out of the realm of normality (at least, up to last June as court decisions changed that). Your handgun was found and seized (Okay, I can see that), but wasn't returned to you due to a policy of not returning firearms? A seizure has to have probable cause; you know, the ol' crime occured, is occuring or about to occur? What did the report say concerning it? Then you were taken back to your vehicle, which while you were gone, had been stripped by persons unknown.

I don't know Byte...it is an interesting situation that I would love to look into further.

[gnihcraes]

My father was pulled over in Elpaso County a year or two ago, he fits the description of a drug runner.
1. Older White Male
2. Beater old Truck
3. Beater old truck full of shit.
4. Coming from the south. (he just came from texas)

Lady officer (state patrol I think) asked to search his vehicle, he consented. The crap this lady had to pull out of his truck was just fun. Old smelly camping crap, clothes, tools, bows, arrows, deer antlers, plastic tarps, just a mess. She found nothing and had to put it all back. ha ha ha

He later found out that he didn't have to consent, was pretty pissed at the waste of time it was.

[Byte Stryke]

Northglenn did this? Now, did you pass the SFST's or did you just believe you passed the SFST's? Since you provided a sample for a BAC test, I'm guessing you didn't pass them. I'm guessing you provided a breath sample, although I don't understand the delay..."When my BAC test came back the next morning". Breath tests are immediate (2 minutes, give or take a few seconds) and blood tests take a couple of weeks. If you were arrested under the suspicion of DUI, then a search of the vehicle isn't out of the realm of normality (at least, up to last June as court decisions changed that). Your handgun was found and seized (Okay, I can see that), but wasn't returned to you due to a policy of not returning firearms? A seizure has to have probable cause; you know, the ol' crime occured, is occuring or about to occur? What did the report say concerning it? Then you were taken back to your vehicle, which while you were gone, had been stripped by persons unknown.

I don't know Byte...it is an interesting situation that I would love to look into further.


the Breathalyzer in their vehicle was broken and I was as sober as it gets.
Seriously, not a drop.
So I had to be taken into the station.
They did it there and I Was held overnight.
Northglenn didn't do this one.

but they have done one like it.

They have also done one like this to my Aunt... I went out and helped her put all of her stuff back together
They pulled her over and tore her car apart because a man in a Blue SUV on the other side of town flashed a gun er some shit.
Afterward, they had found no gun they left her alone to put her car back together. because "That's the law."

The next day the same cops show up at her table (waitress)
She waits 8 Minutes (Max is ten) then brings them all a small plate with a card
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."


[Beer]

[OneGuy67]

the Breathalyzer in their vehicle was broken and I was as sober as it gets.
Seriously, not a drop.
So I had to be taken into the station.
They did it there and I Was held overnight.
Northglenn didn't do this one.

but they have done one like it.

They have also done one like this to my Aunt... I went out and helped her put all of her stuff back together
They pulled her over and tore her car apart because a man in a Blue SUV on the other side of town flashed a gun er some shit.
Afterward, they had found no gun they left her alone to put her car back together. because "That's the law."

The next day the same cops show up at her table (waitress)
She waits 8 Minutes (Max is ten) then brings them all a small plate with a card
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."


[Beer]


Not to quibble with you, mind you. The item kept in the vehicle is called a Portable Breath Tester (PBT), not a breathalyzer and the results obtained from it aren't admissible in court since it isn't a calibrated instrument.

So, you were arrested (whether the arrest was valid or not, I can't say) and you provided a breath sample later, which showed no alcohol. You were released without charges (i assume)...sometime later. You were given a ride back to your vehicle and while you were gone, some peoples unknown had stripped your vehicle of items.

I don't understand your aunt's situation. Are you saying someone reported a driver of a blue SUV flashing a gun and your aunt was pulled over as a suspicious vehicle due to its similarity?

Byte, over the course of time I've commented on this blog, I've thought you to be someone who is rational so I have no reason to not believe what you say. Having said that, these examples don't make sense to me from a law enforcement perspective. I understand your observations and law enforcements may not mesh very well, but I am trying to understand.

I would be interested in knowing the agencies involved and even researching the specific investigations to see what the officers wrote regarding them.

As an aside, did you get your handgun back?

[hollohas]

My father was pulled over in Elpaso a year or two ago, he fits the description of a drug runner.
1. Older White Male
2. Beater old Truck
3. Beater old truck full of shit.
4. Coming from the south. (he just came from texas)

Lady officer (state patrol I think) asked to search his vehicle, he consented. The crap this lady had to pull out of his truck was just fun. Old smelly camping crap, clothes, tools, bows, arrows, deer antlers, plastic tarps, just a mess. She found nothing and had to put it all back. ha ha ha

He later found out that he didn't have to consent, was pretty pissed at the waste of time it was.

My Dad told me the one of worst parts of his job as highway patrol was having to search through people's nasty shit in their dirty old cars and so he always did it out of necessity and never to give someone a hard time. I don't know because I am not a LEO but I think that would be one of the last things I would want to do during my shift. Even on "slow" nights I'm sure there are more interesting things to do.

[hollohas]

I was pulled over for "suspicion of DUI"
(read: I'm Bored and we haven't had any other stops tonight)
Passed the FST and when I was doing that they were searching the car because they had probably cause(not a typo).
They found my unloaded.380 secured in the trunk and Confiscated it "pending investigation".
When my BAC test came back the next morning... because you know, passing the Field Sobriety Test wasn't enough. I got a ride out to my stripped truck.
When I asked about my LCP at the Property officer I was informed that all weapons confiscated by the department are destroyed regardless of status.

Sounds like you got the shaft and I can understand why an incident like this would change your perspective. It is something like this that I think the stuff in the OP is trying to address. Even if you have had bad contacts with police in the past, stay cool and courteous for every stop in an effort to avoid any potential escalation.

Are you fighting the department in question regarding your handgun?

[Byte Stryke]

So, you were arrested (whether the arrest was valid or not, I can't say) and you provided a breath sample later, which showed no alcohol. You were released without charges (i assume)...sometime later. You were given a ride back to your vehicle and while you were gone, some peoples unknown had stripped your vehicle of items.

I don't understand your aunt's situation. Are you saying someone reported a driver of a blue SUV flashing a gun and your aunt was pulled over as a suspicious vehicle due to its similarity?



As an aside, did you get your handgun back?

The entire "Detention" was BS from start to finish
It would be as if I Came to your home, too everything from your house and laid it out on your lawn, house unlocked, took you downtown and held you overnight "on Suspicion." even though I know damn well you aren't guilty of anything, But if I Dont run someone in for something it looks like I am just in the patrol car sleeping all of the time...

when we pulled away from my Truck... everything I that was in the truck was OUT of the truck...
Doors open.



Secondly, the Aunt thing.
at about 1640 hrs on a weekday (I forget exactly which) there was an incident in wheatridge involving a MAN in a blue SUV and a gun...
at about 1645 SHE was pulled over by PD in NORTHGLENN at 106th and Washington
I'll let you think about that.


and no, the weapon was reported as clean and destroyed.

[Elhuero]

Do you mean CCW or some other ID?


CCW.

a military ID never helped at all when in contact with cops, but I was never in uniform.

if some denver area PD took one of my guns and destroyed it, I would go on the warpath.

[hurley842002]

if some denver area PD took one of my guns and destroyed it, I would go on the warpath.

At that point, it becomes a principle issue, and depending on my financial means at the time, an attorney WOULD be hired, and that agency WOULD be buying me a new LCP.

Its surprising to me however, that they destroyed your LCP, just like that. Working in LE myself, and actually dealing with property stuff a few times during my career, there are strict accountability procedures in place for peoples property. Most agencies have a certain time frame to which they must hold property, and you have the chance to pick it up, provided its not being held as evidence. Something sounds fishy on the part of the agency that you dealt with. I hope some ass doesn't have himself/herself a free LCP.

[cstone]

It is sad that life in the US has come to this, but it is what it is. When you feel wronged and there is no other way of addressing the issue, hiring a lawyer is often the only option. I'm not a lawyer. I don't like most lawyers, the way some people don't like most cops. There are lawyers I trust and there are cops I don't trust. Isn't that true about many of the people we meet?

No one knows the details of Byte's circumstances better than Byte. Given the way he described it, the PD had no right to destroy his lawfully owned, private property. While the cop on the scene has good reason to secure a weapon while he is in contact with the owner (for everyone's safety), the weapon should have been returned as soon as possible.

I work in law enforcement but no longer in uniform. You learn very early, never argue with a cop in uniform on the street. You will lose. If the cop in uniform wrongs you, then you will have to patiently wait until you get your turn, either in court or with internal affairs. Pay back is a muther and it is best served cold.

That said, I agree with an earlier post. That department would have bought me a brand new gun. Then they would have paid my attorney's fees and some pain and suffering for the loss of my beloved possession.

[Irving]

OneGuy: You seem to have difficulty admitting that shitty cops exist in this world. I've seen first hand, shitty versions of every occupation I've ever had, and I have no issue admitting that they exist. We understand that you are an upstanding guy. There are more "bad cop" stories that can even be told here.

Here is a recent post from another board. This is from a pretty stupid member, with a history, so take it with a grain of salt.



Was my constitutional right Violated???


So yesterday i was on my way home,this NHP pulls me over with 3 more cops behind him and said his radar said i was speeding (56 in a 35) so even tho i know it wasn't true,i took the ticket without fighting about it. Well as i take the ticket,the cops open my door and pull me out (guns in hand) and tell me i was going to jail because in the state of Nevada,if you have a felony (witch i do but well over 7 years ago in Cali) that i need to register as a EX felon. They start going threw my car trowing all my stuff out on the side of the rode,and tell me there letting me go but i need to follow them to the station to get photos and fingerprints taken. So i go and ask why i had to register like I'm some child rapist,and they said so they can track me. They said i need to let them know where i go,where i work,and if i go out of state,i must tell them where I'm going and when ill be back. Now (IMO) its like there putting my ass back on probation.
I call the state capital and talk to an officer there about this so called LAW. He said that working as an officer for over 30+years,he had never herd about this and the cops had know right to jerk me out of my car like that,and i should call an attorney fast. I have been searching everywhere on the net about this LAW and can't seem to locate it.
What do you think i should do? Fight it or just let it be?
And the felony isn't all that bad,i can get it removed but just can't afford it right now.
I have been living in Nevada a little over a year now and been stopped 2 times and never had a problem.

My fiance once went on a date with a young cop. All night he bragged about going out with his police and fireman buddies and getting tanked and driving around because, "...we're the 'Boys in Blue' and can do whatever we want! Who's going to say anything?"

I've had an average amount of encounters with police, and for the most part they've been a-okay. I've recently noted how the police in my neighborhood show up fast, and in numbers when ever I call them. However, that doesn't allow me to over look and ignore the countless stories of shitty officers. There are literally hours and hours of videos of cops doing terrible things on Youtube that are completely inexcusable, regardless of any surrounding circumstances.

Gnihcraes - I'm surprised to hear that the lady officer that searched your dad's truck put a single thing back, let alone all of it. He is very lucky in that regard.

Byte - A family member was carrying his pistol concealed, while drunk, (not driving, walking on the sidewalk) when he was confronted by the police. He was arrested and they took the gun. I was pissed and was going to call the police and ask how to get the gun back, since it wasn't used in a crime. I was lazy and never did it. After like 18 months, they sent a letter to him telling him that he could come and claim the gun back. Color me surprised.

[Byte Stryke]

Maybe I am coming across wrong.
I do not approve of an encounter with a figure imposing unchecked immediate authority over me.
This might be a Local PD, State or federal officer or a DA of any Level.
Go to a courtroom and listen to the way they arbitrarily trade off sentences... YEARS of a Mans life regardless of Innocence or guilt. I have seen more concern by an 8 year old over a pokemon card.
Experience has taught me that regardless of what the facts actually are or your position in the events in Question, that cop can fuck you up and say ANYTHING and its up to you to disprove it.
Ask the guy that responded to his neighbor being shot in Englewood.
He was ON THE PHONE with 911 when the PD Bum-rushed his ass and threw him in Jail breaking his leg/ankle whatever. Sounds like Dispatch and Englewood PD are NOT doing their Jobs. Makes me REALLY want to be a good citizen and become involved... and then PD investigators wonder why nobody comes forward. "When the system learns your name, there is no escape."
When Cops have Hand gestures to EACH OTHER to plant illegal substances on a Citizen because they cannot find any on him...When a cop can beat the fuck out of someone illegally and get a slap on the hand and a paid vacation, There is a huge problem with the entirety of the system.
It's not that I only distrust Law Enforcement, I don't trust anyone with my rights.

when a LEO pulls you over your shit is done... and if you don't surrender your rights your life turns to shit.

[hurley842002]

Byte - A family member was carrying his pistol concealed, while drunk, (not driving, walking on the sidewalk) when he was confronted by the police. He was arrested and they took the gun. I was pissed and was going to call the police and ask how to get the gun back, since it wasn't used in a crime. I was lazy and never did it. After like 18 months, they sent a letter to him telling him that he could come and claim the gun back. Color me surprised.
[/INDENT]

Most agencies will literally beg you to come get your crap (kind of a CYA). I've seen property sheets from a couple different agencies, and you would be quite surprised at some of the stuff they log and hang on to, so that you can later come pick it up, we're talking rubber bands and paper airplanes, lol.

[Irving]

Oh yeah, I've also been asked if I had any drugs or guns in my vehicle during a stop for a speeding ticket. Oh wait, I didn't get a ticket. I was pulled over coming out of "The Loop" up in Westminster and I just got a warning. I was going like 6 over.

The best experience I've had while being pulled over was when I was doing like 80 mph on an off ramp trying to get to class on time. Cop pulls me over. He was pissed. He came up to my window and said, "You were doing 80 mph on an off ramp." I said, "I was." As in, I was affirming what he just said. He misinterpreted that as me playing dumb and saying, "I was?" He responded, "Yeah, you were." He went back to his car, came back in like 4 seconds with a ticket. I signed it and we were both on our way. The whole stop took under 4 minutes. He didn't waste either of our time.

I've been stopped before and sat on the side of the road for 30 minutes while the two guys had a tickle fight or something in the car behind me. They purposely wasted my time because I told them I was on my way to the airport to pick someone up (I was).

[Irving]

Most agencies will literally beg you to come get your crap (kind of a CYA). I've seen property sheets from a couple different agencies, and you would be quite surprised at some of the stuff they log and hang on to, so that you can later come pick it up, we're talking rubber bands and paper airplanes, lol.

The letter was sent to the house he lives at with the parents. They told me about it. None of us told him about it, because we don't really think he should have a gun (too immature). Think they'll send another letter?

[hurley842002]

The letter was sent to the house he lives at with the parents. They told me about it. None of us told him about it, because we don't really think he should have a gun (too immature). Think they'll send another letter?

They may. I know depending on the value of the item in question, often times a letter will be sent, followed by a certified letter. It just varies by department, some just send a letter, and wait how ever long their policy requires, and then destroy.

[Irving]

I was going to buy it from him, but since I lost my job, and it has been long enough that he probably doesn't feel as dumb anymore, it probably won't happen.

[Byte Stryke]

Reasons I record any and all traffic stops and I Do not trust ANYONE...
Just like PD Don't know who they are pulling over, we don't know who is pulling us over.

Should this go in the funny video thread?

A2CdGS_A7b4
k6BsZUuZmr4
eAhHd6M2Sjg
7LbwZi9NbSo



And this shit terrifies me the most!
S_DTRwEsasw

[Irving]

We don't need to turn this into a cop bashing thread, but it would be nice if people would at least accept that there are bad police officers. If that happened, there wouldn't always be so many examples posted up and the threads would stay on track.

Byte, I get worked up thinking about how citizens have zero ability to protect themselves from the police too. I'm going to bed, then I'll be all better in the morning.

[Byte Stryke]

We don't need to turn this into a cop bashing thread, but it would be nice if people would at least accept that there are bad police officers. If that happened, there wouldn't always be so many examples posted up and the threads would stay on track.

Byte, I get worked up thinking about how citizens have zero ability to protect themselves from the police too. I'm going to bed, then I'll be all better in the morning.


I Don't sleep well at night.
I am worried that DPS SWAT Will raid the wrong address TSA Will molest my Toddler and then some fat donut whore will accidentally shoot me.


Tell me a Bedtime story? :D

[Irving]

Once upon a time, I went on a ride along with a Denver PD cop buddy. It was a pretty boring day, thank God we didn't do any traffic bullshit. We went to a lady's house who came home and found her front door ajar. She figured it was her kids being less than responsible, but wanted to be sure. We waited until another unit arrived. When the other guy got there, they said they were going to clear the house. I was hanging out with the lady in her driveway, and my friend said, "Nah, come in with us!" I walked into the kitchen with them. They drew out their Glocks and I just made a gun with my hand. We cleared the house. They didn't let me be point man and made sure I was out of the hallways before they opened any doors. The architecture of that house was a monstrosity. It must have started out pretty small, and been built on many times over the years. The owners must have drawn the plans by using a Magic 8 Ball each time. It was a mess. Very charming.

Then we went to a call about a broken down car that was parked in front of someone's house for 3 days. I got to write the ticket.

The
---n
---d

Sleep well, sweet Prince.

[Elhuero]

Experience has taught me that regardless of what the facts actually are or your position in the events in Question, that cop can fuck you up and say ANYTHING and its up to you to disprove it.



that is why you should video any interactions with police.

(there's a whole bunch of videos on youtube of police telling people it's illegal to film, grabbing cameras etc. as well)

[BushMasterBoy]

Cops lie and the US Government is corrupt...I could tell you more, but they would probably would just kill me. Did this nation form by armed revolution? Oh yeah...and the FBI is worthless...

[cstone]

If you don't video tape, the cops will probably video tape it for you. As you can tell just by the videos Byte posted, most of the evidence used to convict crooked cops comes from the dash cameras in their cruiser.

There are bad cops. Not everyone who gets through the screening process is honest or suited to be in law enforcement. The judicial system isn't perfect. Far from it.

If you were King or President for the day, how would you change it?

Some people make mistakes. Some people are bad. Some people are evil. Figuring out who is who before they hurt you or someone else is a problem everyone faces. Cops just tend to face that dilemna more often on a daily basis. Its just the nature of the work.

[Irving]

Thank you.

[2ndChildhood]

I have always been treated fairly by LEO's. I talk courteously, keep my hands where they can see them, have my license and registration ready etc etc.
I can't count the number of times I have been let off on speeding tickets - something I have really appreciated over the years.

TSA folks on the other hand... Some of them you can see the JBT attitude on their face. It's really unpleasant to be under their jurisdiction even if only for a few minutes. I'll be traveling on the 2nd so I'll let you guys know just how unpleasant it is.

[OneGuy67]

OneGuy: You seem to have difficulty admitting that shitty cops exist in this world. I've seen first hand, shitty versions of every occupation I've ever had, and I have no issue admitting that they exist. We understand that you are an upstanding guy. There are more "bad cop" stories that can even be told here.

Byte - A family member was carrying his pistol concealed, while drunk, (not driving, walking on the sidewalk) when he was confronted by the police. He was arrested and they took the gun. I was pissed and was going to call the police and ask how to get the gun back, since it wasn't used in a crime. I was lazy and never did it. After like 18 months, they sent a letter to him telling him that he could come and claim the gun back. Color me surprised.
[/indent]


Nah, Stuart, I am very much aware there are some less than stellar cops out there. That is what I do right now. I assist municipal and county agencies with their complex investigations, I read some really poor reports and I see some pretty bad policing going on. Most of which is due to poor training, poor pay and a lack of repetition of specific events. What I am saying is, your impression of the events is vastly different than the officers impression of the events and your interpretation of those events leads people astray.

Not to pick on Byte (I like you dude, so don't feel I am being mean), but in his versions of the event we have been speaking of, he believes he passed the SFST's and was detained. Not so. Detention is a short term (20 minutes or so) event and if he was held as long as he said he was, he was ARRESTED and did not pass the SFST's to the officers liking (there is far too many court cases and court decisions on this to muck it up). Pretty standard way of doing the job. There is a very specific way events of this nature have to be handled in order to be lawful in court and what he perceives happened, doesn't match normal police procedure. So by me asking for more specific details, I am trying to see what fits within and can be explained by normal police procedure and maybe understand what happened to Byte. I've done over 500 DUI arrests in my time as a patrol officer. Have I ever had a situation similar to Byte's? Yes, on a couple of occasions. One example: I had a guy who failed the SFST's and refused to provide a sample of breath into a PBT. I arrested him, processed him and he agreed to take a breath test on the Intoxilyzer 5000EN (a calibrated machine that is accepted in court proceedings) and he blew under the legal limit. I then stopped everything I was doing in regards to processing him and drove him back to his vehicle and he was released. Total time out of this man's life, +/- 1 hour. I explained everything to him and I even apologized even though it wasn't necessary, given how badly he performed the roadside maneuvers, had alcohol on his breath, was unsteady on his feet, etc. Now, looking back on that with age and more wisdom, I realize he may have had more than just alcohol on board and might have gone farther with a urine test for other things, but at the time, I released him without charges.

And Stuart, your family member walking drunk with a firearm on him is unlawful. Be pissed all you want, but he shouldn't have done that.

So, my friend. Yes, you seem to have more than your share of police contacts (by your own admission) and I wonder why. Natural curiosity. Maybe one day we'll sit down over a beer and you'll tell me about them. Maybe not.

[Irving]

And Stuart, your family member walking drunk with a firearm on him is unlawful. Be pissed all you want, but he shouldn't have done that.

So, my friend. Yes, you seem to have more than your share of police contacts (by your own admission) and I wonder why. Natural curiosity. Maybe one day we'll sit down over a beer and you'll tell me about them. Maybe not.

No, I was mad because I thought that the gun was going to be destroyed and gone forever. That is why I was mad. That wasn't the case.

Also, I said I have had an average amount of personal contact with the police. I have contact with the police less than once a year. For a a few years there, I averaged being pulled over about once a year, but that has been going down.

Also, if we got together to talk about all my experiences with the police, you would fall asleep.

[OneGuy67]

No, I was mad because I thought that the gun was going to be destroyed and gone forever. That is why I was mad. That wasn't the case.

Also, I said I have had an average amount of personal contact with the police. I have contact with the police less than once a year. For a a few years there, I averaged being pulled over about once a year, but that has been going down.

Also, if we got together to talk about all my experiences with the police, you would fall asleep.

Ha ha! Okay Stu. I just might fall asleep...might not though. I have a passion for my occupation as you probably can tell. The offer is still on the table if you ever want to discuss an issue over an adult beverage.

[Irving]

Of course I'd go drink a beer with you. I don't want you to think that I wouldn't. I also don't want you to think that I'm a cop hater. I'm certainly not.

[ERNO]

I can't comment on the gun laws in Maryland. I don't know them.

Here in COLORADO, I would say if you aren't a felon, if the firearms are lawful firearms and you don't have a round in the chamber of non-handguns, there isn't going to be an issue if the officer does search the vehicle. The question would be why the officer is searching the vehicle. Even telling the officer you have them in the vehicle in that manner and refusing a search isn't going to have you sitting on the curb wearing metal bracelets. The officer has to develop probable cause that a crime is about to occur, is occuring or will soon be occuring.

If the officer asks permission to search the vehicle, you can say no. Simple. No. The officer can ask if he could look at the firearms and you can say no.

One question, why do you think he need his commanding officer's permission to do his job?

Add to the fire, your thought of having a "naked firearm in the front or back seat"...what is a naked firearm? You can have a visible or concealed firearm in your vehicle and not violate any concealed carry law (Here in Colorado).

The question about the commanding officer: I'm not quite sure myself, I believe I read about it in a gun magazine about a year ago. I want to be as polite to the officer as much as I can. By saying, "no" sounds rude to me, and unless he has probable cause, If he is that determined to search my car because he called his commanding officer then I have it on recorded tape somewhere and hopefully he would not bother to search my car and just let me just drive right on out of town.
But if I was carrying something illegal, I would definitly say no.
I guess instead of naked firearm I should have said, uncased firearm.
I do not have a CCW here in Maryland, because I don't carry around a lot of money and my life has not been threatened enough to be qualified to have one.
Firearms have to be cased in a vehicle for transport. No loaded pistol magazines. Ammunition for pistols must be transported in a different place other than than the pistol location. Like, if you have the pistol cased in your vehicle passenger compartment, ammo must be stored in the trunk.

[Irving]

I can drive around with an uncased gun sliding around on my dash board if I want.

[HBARleatherneck]

dont do it Stuart... its a trap.

[Irving]

I'm sure I'd get the shit kicked out of me for it.

[Troublco]

dont do it Stuart... its a trap.

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Dammit, I wanted to see him do it...[ROFL1]

[HBARleatherneck]

its like at thanksgiving when the MAN sends the free turkey dinner invitations to all the dirtbags. Who actually show up and get the nice stainless steel jewelery. What a bunch of dumb asses.

[Byte Stryke]

Ha ha! Okay Stu. I just might fall asleep...might not though. I have a passion for my occupation as you probably can tell. The offer is still on the table if you ever want to discuss an issue over an adult beverage.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_a_trap.jpg


[ROFL1]

[Byte Stryke]

If you were King or President for the day, how would you change it?

Any and all public officials suspended while under investigationis with pay*** IF* they are found guilty the pay given during the Investigation will be garnered back to the tax payers.
ANY public official convicted of violation of civil rights will be immediately removed from their position and remanded to the custody of the state. None of this "They got a counseling and docked a days pay.".
Any Public official convicted of abuse of their position.. See #3I Just think its time EVERYONE was treated fairly and equally under the law.

If I punch a Cop and I am in the wrong (LOL...I know) I go to jail. I get a record... I lose my civil liberties and probably a few other things.

If a cop punches a Citizen and is in the wrong they get a paid vacation until all of the heat blows over and then a slap on the wrist.

double standard
do not want.

OneGuy Let me know when you want that Beer.

[OneGuy67]

The question about the commanding officer: I'm not quite sure myself, I believe I read about it in a gun magazine about a year ago. I want to be as polite to the officer as much as I can. By saying, "no" sounds rude to me, and unless he has probable cause, If he is that determined to search my car because he called his commanding officer then I have it on recorded tape somewhere and hopefully he would not bother to search my car and just let me just drive right on out of town.
But if I was carrying something illegal, I would definitly say no.
I guess instead of naked firearm I should have said, uncased firearm.
I do not have a CCW here in Maryland, because I don't carry around a lot of money and my life has not been threatened enough to be qualified to have one.
Firearms have to be cased in a vehicle for transport. No loaded pistol magazines. Ammunition for pistols must be transported in a different place other than than the pistol location. Like, if you have the pistol cased in your vehicle passenger compartment, ammo must be stored in the trunk.


I would tell you to contact someone there in Maryland who can tell you what Maryland law says concerning the issues. Back in 2003 here in Colorado, we had some pretty significant sweeping reforms come out regarding firearms and that is what I can specifically talk about. Other states have their own laws, which may conflict with Colorado law and I would hate to have someone get into trouble because they followed some advice posted here relating to another state other than theirs.

[OneGuy67]

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_a_trap.jpg


[ROFL1]


Awww, c'mon Byte. You're invited too!

[OneGuy67]

Any and all public officials suspended while under investigationis with pay*** IF* they are found guilty the pay given during the Investigation will be garnered back to the tax payers.
ANY public official convicted of violation of civil rights will be immediately removed from their position and remanded to the custody of the state. None of this "They got a counseling and docked a days pay.".
Any Public official convicted of abuse of their position.. See #3I Just think its time EVERYONE was treated fairly and equally under the law.

If I punch a Cop and I am in the wrong (LOL...I know) I go to jail. I get a record... I lose my civil liberties and probably a few other things.

If a cop punches a Citizen and is in the wrong they get a paid vacation until all of the heat blows over and then a slap on the wrist.

double standard
do not want.

OneGuy Let me know when you want that Beer.


I would agree about this issue and add that when politics gets involved, it all goes to sh*t! You can do some basic research on stories in the Denver Post about people who handle the citizen's money, that steal ten's of thousands of dollars from the citizens and who get off with a slap on the wrist.

Some examples:

Steve Atwood stole from Adams 12 in excess of $190,000 and got probation, no jail time.

Janelle Gonzales in Pueblo stole directly from citizens and from the state fair for approximately $100,000 and got probation and a deferred sentence which wipes away her conviction if she stays out of trouble for the next two years.

P.J. Trostel stole from the citizens of Elbert County in the range of $100,000 and is currently going through the court system. Will probably get probation as well.

There are far more, but I'm limited for time on this rant.

These types of cases really piss me off as they are public employees WHO STOLE the citizen's of Colorado's money and are not being PUNISHED. They need to be held to a higher accountability, a higher standard and need to have the hammer fall HARD.

I know Byte's comments are towards cops, I'm including others into the mix.

[cstone]

The trick is getting the conviction. There is a long tradition of good prosecutors becoming even better defense attorneys. The judicial system is slanted toward plea agreements and first time offenders (covers most law enforcement employees) tend toward diversion or probation before judgement, which is not necessarily the same as a conviction.

That said, I personally believe that if you can't follow the law, how can you uphold the law? Even though ignorance of the law is no defense, cops should still be held to a higher standard because they are expected to know the law.

Like most professions, administrative penalties are normally progressive, unless the seriousness of the action warrants immediate removal. Over a normal career, an individual cop can expect to have citizen's complain about their behavior. The only cops I know who have never had a complaint made against them are the cops who never arrested anyone or never actually did anything to protect the community they serve.

I like video evidence. It isn't perfect but it is a whole lot better than trying to read the body language of someone testifying on the witness stand six months to a year after the incident when they have been coached by their defense attorney and look much cleaner and professional than they did on the night of the arrest. I'm actually talking about cops here after they are charged with a crime.

Most cops (not all) I have worked with have a strong sense of honor and integrity. They often start their careers believing that the system gets it right more often than not. By the end of their careers they are happy when the system works reasonably well from time to time and they try not to let the failures keep them from doing their best. Bad cops make the job much harder for the rest of us to do our job. I want them gone as much, if not more than you do.

Most cops expect a certain percentage of people not to like them. After all, cops have the authority to take your freedom away. With that authority (I know, I can hear Eric Cartman in the back of my head) comes great responsibility. Its not a popularity contest. In the end, cops are required to keep the peace and only use the force necessary to keep that peace. Sometimes that means talking to people in a stern manner. Sometimes it means rolling around on the ground trying to get cuffs on someone bigger and stronger than you while you are praying for your back up to arrive. I don't ask for any sympathy for cops. We chose the occupation. We are not bound in servitude. When I or any cop thinks they have had enough, they should move along.

I'm thinking of becoming a machinist or a truck driver? Anyone looking for a half used up retired cop?

[Elhuero]

I would agree about this issue and add that when politics gets involved, it all goes to sh*t! You can do some basic research on stories in the Denver Post about people who handle the citizen's money, that steal ten's of thousands of dollars from the citizens and who get off with a slap on the wrist.

Some examples:

Steve Atwood stole from Adams 12 in excess of $190,000 and got probation, no jail time.

Janelle Gonzales in Pueblo stole directly from citizens and from the state fair for approximately $100,000 and got probation and a deferred sentence which wipes away her conviction if she stays out of trouble for the next two years.

P.J. Trostel stole from the citizens of Elbert County in the range of $100,000 and is currently going through the court system. Will probably get probation as well.

There are far more, but I'm limited for time on this rant.

These types of cases really piss me off as they are public employees WHO STOLE the citizen's of Colorado's money and are not being PUNISHED. They need to be held to a higher accountability, a higher standard and need to have the hammer fall HARD.

I know Byte's comments are towards cops, I'm including others into the mix.

You're absolutely right and I agree with what you're saying.

but given the choice between an unseen guy in an office embezzling money or a cop shooting me with a tazer and/or beating me with a baton, I'd prefer the former.

[Byte Stryke]

The trick is getting the conviction. There is a long tradition of good prosecutors becoming even better defense attorneys. The judicial system is slanted toward plea agreements and first time offenders (covers most law enforcement employees) tend toward diversion or probation before judgment, which is not necessarily the same as a conviction.

That said, I personally believe that if you can't follow the law, how can you uphold the law? Even though ignorance of the law is no defense, cops should still be held to a higher standard because they are expected to know the law.

Like most professions, administrative penalties are normally progressive, unless the seriousness of the action warrants immediate removal. Over a normal career, an individual cop can expect to have citizen's complain about their behavior. The only cops I know who have never had a complaint made against them are the cops who never arrested anyone or never actually did anything to protect the community they serve.

I like video evidence. It isn't perfect but it is a whole lot better than trying to read the body language of someone testifying on the witness stand six months to a year after the incident when they have been coached by their defense attorney and look much cleaner and professional than they did on the night of the arrest. I'm actually talking about cops here after they are charged with a crime.

Most cops (not all) I have worked with have a strong sense of honor and integrity. They often start their careers believing that the system gets it right more often than not. By the end of their careers they are happy when the system works reasonably well from time to time and they try not to let the failures keep them from doing their best. Bad cops make the job much harder for the rest of us to do our job. I want them gone as much, if not more than you do.

Most cops expect a certain percentage of people not to like them. After all, cops have the authority to take your freedom away. With that authority (I know, I can hear Eric Cartman in the back of my head) comes great responsibility. Its not a popularity contest. In the end, cops are required to keep the peace and only use the force necessary to keep that peace. Sometimes that means talking to people in a stern manner. Sometimes it means rolling around on the ground trying to get cuffs on someone bigger and stronger than you while you are praying for your back up to arrive. I don't ask for any sympathy for cops. We chose the occupation. We are not bound in servitude. When I or any cop thinks they have had enough, they should move along.

I'm thinking of becoming a machinist or a truck driver? Anyone looking for a half used up retired cop? I Completely concur and when you find a job see if they have room for an opinionated, jaded, tired old soldier.


I would agree about this issue and add that when politics gets involved, it all goes to sh*t! You can do some basic research on stories in the Denver Post about people who handle the citizen's money, that steal ten's of thousands of dollars from the citizens and who get off with a slap on the wrist.

Some examples:

Steve Atwood stole from Adams 12 in excess of $190,000 and got probation, no jail time.

Janelle Gonzales in Pueblo stole directly from citizens and from the state fair for approximately $100,000 and got probation and a deferred sentence which wipes away her conviction if she stays out of trouble for the next two years.

P.J. Trostel stole from the citizens of Elbert County in the range of $100,000 and is currently going through the court system. Will probably get probation as well.

There are far more, but I'm limited for time on this rant.

These types of cases really piss me off as they are public employees WHO STOLE the citizen's of Colorado's money and are not being PUNISHED. They need to be held to a higher accountability, a higher standard and need to have the hammer fall HARD.

I know Byte's comments are towards cops, I'm including others into the mix.
Actually I Did say ANY public official.
and dont get me wrong, I dont hate cops. I hate CORRUPT, CROOKED and ABUSIVE public officials,(elected, appointed, Hired, whatever) until they start making themselves more readily identifiable, I am trusting no one.



You're absolutely right and I agree with what you're saying.

but given the choice between an unseen guy in an office embezzling money or a cop shooting me with a tazer and/or beating me with a baton, I'd prefer the former.


C) None of the above

[BigBear]

Storytime!!!

My first encounter while carrying, I was pulled over:

Cop: Sir, do you know why I pulled you over?
Me: My liscence and registration is in my wallet. I have a legally concealed firearm on my right hip. (Felt like I had to tell him cause he'd probably see it when I went for my wallet) May I pull out my wallet?
Cop: No Sir, you may exit the vehicle slowly however.
Me: Yes sir.

I get out, he puts me on the car, quick frisk... takes him a second to disarm me (holster lock). He clears the weapon. Asks if there are any other weapons on me or in the car. "No Sir" etc... Looks over firearm and asks for liscence, etc....

Cop: Nice Glock. I haven't seen the sub-compacts yet. How's it handle?
Me: Well, I really like it. Some people complain that the grip is too wide, but for my big hands it fits great. It runs smooth and the recoil is a lot lighter than I'd expect from a subby.
Cop: Well, I might have to try one sometime.
Me: Hey, well if I ever see you at the range, I'm usually out at Dragonmans on 94, I'll let you fire off a few.
Cop: Sounds good Mr. XXXXX. Here's your stuff back. Please slow it down for me out there ok? I'm sure your wife wants you home tonight.
Me: Yes Sir. Thank you. Be careful out there as well.

Accidently threw some shoulder gravel while pulling out... hehehe....

[CapLock]

Glad he didn't shoot you in the Dick trying to get your gun out of the holster. Sounds like you enjoyed your time being bent over your car and that's what counts. I never look at the brighter side of things. Id feel harassed for no reason other than being honest. You made a friend. I'm going to take lifes lemons and go make some lemonade now.

[Byte Stryke]

Glad he didn't shoot you in the Dick trying to get your gun out of the holster. Sounds like you enjoyed your time being bent over your car and that's what counts. I never look at the brighter side of things. Id feel harassed for no reason other than being honest. You made a friend. I'm going to take lifes lemons and go make some lemonade now.


http://www.smileydesign.net/smileys/zombie08.gif

[cowboykjohnson]

A job that starts paying a kid with a few months part time at a community college academy,in the metro area at mid to high $40,000. I see $45-49k a year to start. not exactly thankless. i know teachers and cops. gods angels on earth.
Try 11 grand for 41 college credits in 9 months, that eats all your time and stresses you to no end! [Tooth]