View Full Version : Getting jumped or mugged
Dusty Johnson
11-20-2010, 20:29
This is basically a "what if" situation but I wanted peoples thoughts and opinions please.
Let's say you are a carrying concealed legally and 2-3 guys confront you telling you to give them your money, jewelry, wallet etc. These 2-3 guys have no guns or knives drawn but threaten to beat the shit out of you if you do not comply. We will say they are 5-7 yards away with nothing in between you and them and they are closing.
What would you do?
Would you be justified in shooting them? Will hands/feet/legs stand up in court as "deadly weapons"?
Thanks for any opinions and thoughts. :)
gcrookston
11-20-2010, 21:13
Hypothetically, they are an immediate threat and I would utilize whatever assets I had to defend myself.
Byte Stryke
11-20-2010, 21:35
These 2-3 guys have no guns or knives drawn but threaten to beat the shit out of you if you do not comply.
COLORADO STATUTES REGARDING DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE AND CARRYING
CONCEALED FIREARMS
18-1-704 Use Of Physical Force In Defense Of A Person
1. Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force
upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use
or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he
reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
2. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is
inadequate and:
a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent
danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
b) The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a
dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections
18-4-202 to 184-204; or
c) The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section
18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 184-301 or 184-302, sexual assault as set forth in section
18-3-402 or 18-3-403, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 or 18-3-203.
3. Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a person is not justified in using physical
force if:
a) With intent to cause bodily injury or death to another person, he provokes the use of unlawful physical
force by that other person; or
b) He is the initial aggressor, except that his use of physical force upon another person under the
circumstances is justifiable if he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other
person his intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or threatens the use of unlawful physical force;
or
c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.
http://www.bouldercounty.org/sheriff/pdf/permitInfoPack.pdf
Usually all of this is covered in your Class and it is ALWAYS available in your permit pack.
MOST LEOs will also answer questions in this regard if you approach it in a sincere manner.
All advice is that of a NON Attorney, it is only cited as free advice. all legal questions SHOULD be referred to your attorney
I was jumped by two guys before. However, had I been carrying a gun at the time, it would have been murder if I had used it.
Byte Stryke
11-20-2010, 21:47
I was jumped by two guys before. However, had I been carrying a gun at the time, it would have been murder if I had used it.
???
Explain?
gnihcraes
11-20-2010, 22:29
Turn and burn if at all possible. Use the surroundings to keep distance between you and them. Trained for this many times in karate class. If they get too close and are determined to physically harm and I see no other options, a weapon would be displayed and possibly used. I'm also going based on what I recently saw in the video tapes of the people being attacked at the gas station on broadway. No weapons, but fear of bodily harm by beating was an active there.
Regardless of how you handle the situation, you will be judged by people who weren't there and cannot know what was in your mind at the time it was happening. If you have any conscience, you will relive those moments and have doubts for many years if not the rest of your life.
If you have a gun and you believe that one (number doesn't matter) person is about to cause you serious bodily injury or death with their hands and or feet, you can be reasonably sure they will take your gun if they find it and finish the job. If you won't use it, don't carry it.
Its a cliche but it expresses the point: Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
Hold on, the fights are on. Basically some dicks were hopped up on shit and looking for trouble in the parking garage. They stood in front of my car so I couldn't drive out. When the prick finally moved, he kicked my car as I drove by. I stopped, got out and got beat up. I'd never been in a fight before. I shouldn't have gotten beat up, but I didn't do anything.
hurley842002
11-20-2010, 22:39
While you would certainly be justified, you'd really have to weigh the consequences. I can A) Toss the guys my wallet, and hopefully they will go away (I don't usually carry cash anyway), or I can B) Use lethal force, and risk ruining my financial future paying attorneys fees, not to mention the guys robbing you, will likely sue you. Just something to think about. Now if you toss the wallet, and they are still looking to do you harm, then by all means, do what you need to do.
Byte Stryke
11-20-2010, 23:13
While you would certainly be justified, you'd really have to weigh the consequences. I can A) Toss the guys my wallet, and hopefully they will go away (I don't usually carry cash anyway), or I can B) Use lethal force, and risk ruining my financial future paying attorneys fees, not to mention the guys robbing you, will likely sue you. Just something to think about. Now if you toss the wallet, and they are still looking to do you harm, then by all means, do what you need to do.
I Agree...
by all means use any option available to you:
go into a shop
Call out to someone as if you know them.
throw the wallet to them
always try to keep distance between you and them
AS A LAST RESORT:
It is better to use your weapon on someone else than it is to have them use it on you.
I Have often wondered if in a situation like that, Pull to Ready, Menacing?
I would say "non-lethal deterrent"
but that's me.
hurley842002
11-20-2010, 23:25
I Have often wondered if in a situation like that, Pull to Ready, Menacing?
I would say "non-lethal deterrent"
but that's me.
Unless you are in Denver, I suppose you could go from concealed to open carry in a matter of seconds, if that doesn't deter them, they are looking for serious trouble and it's time to handle business.
My two cents would be put distance between you and the aggressor or aggressors. And do your absolute best to diffuse the situation. Toss them a wallet, or tuck tail and run. Personally I have no issue with running away.
If they were to keep it up and become very violent, and not keep the distance I have tried to maintain the game has changed. Menacing a weapon at that point would not be a concern to me, my life would be, 3-4 on one, potentially under the influence is not a safe environment. I would most likely draw or announce I was armed and assess the situation.
Have a cell, call 911. Do your best to not draw and use your weapon. Unless it is life or death.
Just my 2 cents not any sort of legal advice haha.
ChunkyMonkey
11-21-2010, 00:15
If you have your CCW, you should have gone through many many scenarios and legal circumstances with your instructor as Byte mentioned. It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.
You know, I started a thread in the CCW section specifically to address various situations. I thought it was a good thread.
ChunkyMonkey
11-21-2010, 00:29
Yeah, too bad our opinions and thoughts don't count in real situation. I know it's not fun, but consult your lawyer if you want to hear a real answer. [Coffee]
Byte Stryke
11-21-2010, 01:38
It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.
There is no such things as too much Info though...
Maybe he is a recently discharged Vet?
THOSE things are not covered...
all angles
just saying
gnihcraes
11-21-2010, 09:41
Hold on, the fights are on. Basically some dicks were hopped up on shit and looking for trouble in the parking garage. They stood in front of my car so I couldn't drive out. When the prick finally moved, he kicked my car as I drove by. I stopped, got out and got beat up. I'd never been in a fight before. I shouldn't have gotten beat up, but I didn't do anything.
Police/Court response: So you were free to go, safe and unharmed in your car and then you stopped and got out and were assaulted because someone kicked your car?
Should have kept driving to a safe location and contacted police.
Dusty Johnson
11-21-2010, 10:36
If you have your CCW, you should have gone through many many scenarios and legal circumstances with your instructor as Byte mentioned. It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.
I have gone through the CCW class and I am waiting on my permit.
These types of questions were answered in the class and I read and understand the laws. I asked the questions to gain more information and get peoples thoughts and opinions on what they would do if they were in that situation.
There is no such things as too much Info though...
This is one of the reasons I started this thread. :)
Police/Court response: So you were free to go, safe and unharmed in your car and then you stopped and got out and were assaulted because someone kicked your car?
Should have kept driving to a safe location and contacted police.
Yep, that's why if I had a gun at the time, I couldn't have really gotten out of the car, just kept driving. Should have done done that anyway I guess.
My two cents would be put distance between you and the aggressor or aggressors. And do your absolute best to diffuse the situation. Toss them a wallet, or tuck tail and run. Personally I have no issue with running away.
If they were to keep it up and become very violent, and not keep the distance I have tried to maintain the game has changed. Menacing a weapon at that point would not be a concern to me, my life would be, 3-4 on one, potentially under the influence is not a safe environment. I would most likely draw or announce I was armed and assess the situation.
Have a cell, call 911. Do your best to not draw and use your weapon. Unless it is life or death.
Just my 2 cents not any sort of legal advice haha.This is the best advice.
xiondavis
11-21-2010, 17:26
If you have your CCW, you should have gone through many many scenarios and legal circumstances with your instructor as Byte mentioned. It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.
Byte Stryke
11-21-2010, 20:38
I will add the following:
IF I have to pull and fire my weapon, It will be in a manner that will most effectively eliminate the threat posed to myself or my family.
It will not hurt my feelings in the least bit at all if the assailant(s) cannot be present in the courtroom to render their biased version of the events due to appointments with supreme beings or other religious deities.
'nough said.
Daniel_187
11-22-2010, 10:04
I will add the following:
IF I have to pull and fire my weapon, It will be in a manner that will most effectively eliminate the threat posed to myself or my family.
It will not hurt my feelings in the least bit at all if the assailant(s) cannot be present in the courtroom to render their biased version of the events due to appointments with supreme beings or other religious deities.
'nough said.
+1 Dead men tell no tales
ghettodub
11-22-2010, 10:06
I will add the following:
IF I have to pull and fire my weapon, It will be in a manner that will most effectively eliminate the threat posed to myself or my family.
It will not hurt my feelings in the least bit at all if the assailant(s) cannot be present in the courtroom to render their biased version of the events due to appointments with supreme beings or other religious deities.
'nough said.
Agreed
This brings up another question: Assuming you are outnumbered, and in "reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death", and you are forced to actually shoot someone to remove the threat, post shooting, do you:
A) Call 911, tell them there's been a shooting, keep them on the line until cops/EMS arrive, administer first aid, in an attempt to save a life (and does this look better in the eyes of a jury?)?
or
B) Call 911, blah blah blah, and move away from the "threat" in keeping with the "fear for my life" scenario(no first aid, as it seems to show remorse)?
I know what my answer is, just curious about the rest of you.
I have a similar question.
If there are 5 guys, will you make your way through guys until they start running? Do you always start with the mouthy one?
I have a similar question.
If there are 5 guys, will you make your way through guys until they start running? Do you always start with the mouthy one?
When he says you can't get them all, shoot him and say that he's probably right but you'll get an A for effort. This will intimidate them long enough for you to take them into some immigrant's shop so you can destroy it while beating up the remaining 4. Done this way, you will face no charges.
I carry 13 rounds in case 26 guys show up. end of story.
[Tooth]
BushMasterBoy
11-22-2010, 17:44
I got mugged in LA...I managed to run away...got into a crowd of white people. The muggers started fighting other white people...I managed to make it back to my car! They had smashed a beer bottle on the back of head, I escaped unarmed. The scene I left was just short of a mini riot. As I drove off, I heard gun shots, I hope they got what they deserved. If I had been armed... I would have shot the three of them. Never went back to LA.
If you shoot some bad guys, pray I am on your jury if the asshole liberal DA's press charges.
Gun shots in LA? I doubt it was white people shooting.
Byte Stryke
11-22-2010, 22:39
This brings up another question: Assuming you are outnumbered, and in "reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death", and you are forced to actually shoot someone to remove the threat, post shooting, do you:
A) Call 911, tell them there's been a shooting, keep them on the line until cops/EMS arrive, administer first aid, in an attempt to save a life (and does this look better in the eyes of a jury?)?
or
B) Call 911, blah blah blah, and move away from the "threat" in keeping with the "fear for my life" scenario(no first aid, as it seems to show remorse)?
I know what my answer is, just curious about the rest of you.
I am going to assume, probably pretty safely, that if you drop one and they keep coming, Drop another and they will either arm or run.
As soon as the person is down, the law typically considers the threat neutralized.(there's always circumstances)
What to say when you get on with 911 and this should be happening before the weapon even starts to cool.
(this should also be covered in your classes)
1) I Was being/about to be attacked by (Persons) and I thought I Was going to die and I Shot (persons) defending myself.
2) I WAS AM TERRIFIED! I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO AFRAID IN MY LIFE!
3) PLEASE, Send an ambulance quickly He is/they are Hurt.
If you giggle on the phone with 911, trust me, it will be used against you.
You are going to have to go through Criminal investigation and a Civil battle. That recording will be used in Both.
You are Scared, you are sincere, you are concerned for the life and well being of your fellow man.
You are also calling your attorney as soon as 911 is done with you.
Regardless of how in the right you are, keep your trap shut.
Tell the Officer that due to potential civil actions resulting, you would like to wait before answering any questions until you can speak to your attorney or Request an attorney.
I Would also recommend you run this same question past your legal representative and not just take my word for it.
My two cents would be put distance between you and the aggressor or aggressors. And do your absolute best to diffuse the situation. Toss them a wallet, or tuck tail and run. Personally I have no issue with running away.
If they were to keep it up and become very violent, and not keep the distance I have tried to maintain the game has changed. Menacing a weapon at that point would not be a concern to me, my life would be, 3-4 on one, potentially under the influence is not a safe environment. I would most likely draw or announce I was armed and assess the situation.
Have a cell, call 911. Do your best to not draw and use your weapon. Unless it is life or death.
Just my 2 cents not any sort of legal advice haha.
I would NOT announce I was armed, especially if there are multiple assailants. If they are traveling in packs and mugging people, chances are good that at least one of them is armed too. Last thing you want to do is tell them before they find out the hard way, giving them precious time to "jump start" you to a gun. I'm guessing they will not hesitate to use their gun(s) in this situation! It would be tough to keep your eyes on all of them at the same time, so if it comes down to it, pull it out and use it if necessary! Don't give them a warning until it is pointed at them IMO, and keep trying to increase distance when this is done.
Otherwise great suggestions!
Colorado Luckydog
11-22-2010, 23:11
If I'm in fear for my life or serious injury, I'm going to use my weapon. If I really think they are unarmed, they would get a chance to back off. However, I wouldn't take a beating from multiple unarmed thugs and hope they choose not to kill me. If I have reason to belive they are armed, they will get all I got as fast as I can give it.
If I feel my life is in danger, all this Mickey Mouse shit about what would happen in court will not be of any concern to me at all. If I have my family with me, it will be of even less concern. In a high pressure situation where you could be killed, who gives a rats ass about what might happen in court.
I think you guys watch too much TV.[ROFL1]
I wouldn't say anything on the 911 call except that I need an ambulance.
Byte Stryke
11-22-2010, 23:27
If I'm in fear for my life or serious injury, I'm going to use my weapon. If I really think they are unarmed, they would get a chance to back off. However, I wouldn't take a beating from multiple unarmed thugs and hope they choose not to kill me. If I have reason to belive they are armed, they will get all I got as fast as I can give it.
If I feel my life is in danger, all this Mickey Mouse shit about what would happen in court will not be of any concern to me at all. If I have my family with me, it will be of even less concern. In a high pressure situation where you could be killed, who gives a rats ass about what might happen in court.
I think you guys watch too much TV.[ROFL1]
I Do not question the actions.
I am just offering advice for the after-action which is just as important
Even you just "Show it", they back down and a shot is never fired... you need to be on the phone with 911.
Otherwise they hear this first:
"Deys dis crazy muthafuka wiff a gun!"
First dirt wins.
Geology Rocks
11-22-2010, 23:52
I would....Yell out to them at the top of my lungs with my support hand outstretched. "I do not want a problem!!! Someone please call 911 and them to keep their distance." Hopefully someone near by will say they heard me yelling at the top of the lungs to stay back and call 911. If they dont listen I turn and burn...if they give chase and catch me I have reason to believe I am in danger and therefore I will defend myself.
joe
My fiance has a top running speed of about 8 mph. I know, I've checked. Running is not an option.
Geology Rocks
11-23-2010, 01:54
My fiance has a top running speed of about 8 mph. I know, I've checked. Running is not an option.
i would still try and exercise every way out option. Yes we can stand our ground and not retreat. In a car? drive away.
joe
ok, here's my take...
defend yourself first.
when it's over, move away from the dead/injured. don't touch them, talk to them or try to help them.
call 911.
"There has been a shooting at [location], there are [number of assailants] wounded. Please send EMS and police to [location again] immediately. The person on scene [give your description] is a good guy DO NOT SHOOT HIM"
hang up. the operator will try to keep you on the line and ask you questions to get more detail. don't let them.
holster your firearm and wait for the police.
when they arrive don't move or shout and keep your hands visible. tell the police that you are armed and tell them without pointing or reaching where your firearm is located. Say you were in fear for your life and defended yourself, and that you don't feel well and would like to go to the hospital. then DON'T SAY ANYTHING ELSE.
as soon as you can call an attorney and also write down every detail of the situation while it's fresh in your mind.
with this plan you defend yourself, call for help without admitting you shot anyone, maintain control of your firearm until police disarm you, and also protect yourself from prosecution and counter suit.
that's my general plan, I'm open to critique and suggestion.
Elhuero hit it right on the money IMO and from what I was taught. As before the shooting if you have any way outs...take them. Defend youself in a last resort option and if you ever feel your life is in danger or fear of severe bodily harm you have every right to defend yourself. If they want just your money or car give it to them those things can always be replaced even if you may lose your pride. If that's not enough and they keep coming at you and you can't get away, SHOOT EM! 3 guys can still kill you whether or not they have weapons, they can tap dance on your head and kill you pretty easily or cause you severe bodily harm. You will always have the BS to deal with after the fact it's just unavoidable.
[M2]
Can't say as I agree with some of the comments here, I do however think there's been a ton of excellent post engagement information. Guys, while we who carry often run these scenarios through our heads, its healthy to have open discussions about them. My advise though is to keep to the specific topic and to avoid comments that might be construed as indicating at a later date, that you have a proclivity towards shooting first. The internet is forever and if you believe that organizations like CBI, BATFE or other LE agencies don't keep track of these specific forums, you would be gravely mistaken.
Something that might be useful for the newer CCW folks, and even some of us older hands, might be a running list of scenarios to think through. Not the array of comments, just a running list of situations to run the mental exercise on.
ellyka112
11-23-2010, 10:51
???
Explain?
Turn and burn if at all possible. Use the surroundings to keep distance between you and them. Trained for this many times in karate class. If they get too close and are determined to physically harm and I see no other options, a weapon would be displayed and possibly used. I'm also going based on what I recently saw in the video tapes of the people being attacked at the gas station on broadway. No weapons, but fear of bodily harm by beating was an active there.
I'm a know-nothing punk, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents: I don't see the scenario of "what ifs" as being productive. In any scenario you should -
Evade/talk out if you can. If not, execute immediate and extreme violence until the threat is neutralized or destroyed. Preferrably destroyed so a second chance meeting will not be an option.
buckshotbarlow
11-23-2010, 11:41
My fiance has a top running speed of about 8 mph. I know, I've checked. Running is not an option.
whoot, my kids top speed=0 10 month olds don't run 2 fast
3 guys can still kill you whether or not they have weapons, they can tap dance on your head and kill you pretty easily or cause you severe bodily harm.
I definitely had my face stomped on in a concrete parking garage and a lot of my previously perfect teeth were broken.
hurley842002
11-23-2010, 17:06
I definitely had my face stomped on in a concrete parking garage and a lot of my previously perfect teeth were broken.
That's too bad Stuart, sorry to hear. My room mate was downtown several years ago, had just left a bar, and was waiting for his taxi, 3 CSU (I think it was CSU) football players mistook him for someone that was allegedly hitting on one of their "chicks", well they beat him badly, broke his neck, and fractured his skull. He was pretty bad for quite awhile, worst part was, they were friends with the door guy, they ran and the door guy didn't see nuttin. Found out awhile back, one of them died from a heart attack, hmmmmm.
College sports players using cocaine? Impossible! ;)
What bar was it in front of? I used to man the door of a bar a few years ago.
I was totally sober the night I got jumped by the way.
hurley842002
11-23-2010, 17:25
College sports players using cocaine? Impossible! ;)
What bar was it in front of? I used to man the door of a bar a few years ago.
I was totally sober the night I got jumped by the way.
Ya know, I don't even remember what bar he said it was in front of, He used to spend a lot of time at Sports Column, but not certain that's what bar it was.
reddevil1111
11-24-2010, 13:18
This happened to me.
I was working for a smaller ATM Company about 10-15 years ago. We would drive all over Colorado in an armored mini van or full size armored van and repair and replenish money in ATM's. (good overtime, bad pay dont ever do it)
So we had a mountain route we did two times every week. The company would sometimes rent a van or sport ute if our armored van was out of service (yeah just a plain van, unarmored)
On one trip in a plain white rental van we drove from Berthoud to Georgetown. A 4x4 pickup was harrasing us throwing beer bottles and trash at us. We were driving the speed limit and that upset them. So as soon as we had cell range we contacted the police via 911.
My driver was a good friend and he was new on the job. He had no knowledge or proper training on what-if situations. The company just got him his Denver county open carry lic. and gave him a .357 for work.
As we were driving they became more aggressive. When we pulled into Georgetown we recontacted the police and told them the situation and even broke our company policy and told them we were carring a large amount of cash (around 4.3 million)
Then it happened, the driver of our van pulled into an open parking lot filled with debris (old gas station now tourist center) and when he pulled in he managed to block us in (busy traffic to the rear, concrete and other objects to our front) bad guys pulled into a shamrock gas station about 200 meters away (it was our next ATM as well)
I observed 5 guys running towards our van several were holding bars/bats.I had no idea if any were armed with guns. I was talking with Georgetown dispatch 911 telling them the situation.
I have to tell you this all took place over 30-40 minutes. If the police wanted to be there they could have.
As the guys got to within 100 meters of the van I told the 911 operator I was armed, was exiting the van to protect the life of the driver and to protect our cargo and that I would be using deadly force if help did not arrive very quickly.
I handed the cell to the driver and told him that if they got past me, for him to start shooting and to back up even if it meant causing an accident. (we had to assume they knew we had the money and were unarmored)
I stepped out of the van and put my hand on the butt of my .45 pistol (still holstered)
I yelled out for them to halt, get on thier knees and interlace their fingers behind their heads. By now they were 20 feet from me and the van. They kept running. I drew my weapon, pointed it at the closest runner and cocked the weapon.
I will tell you this was nothing like the times in the Marine Corps when I had to fire my weapon. Time seemed to stand still and I ran through the make my day law (I had memorized, it it used to be much shorter) I was afraid I might not be right to defend myself. I questioned my actions and tried to find a way out. I realized there was no options, I was right in my actions and I said to the guy that was less that 5 feet from me (he had stopped running and was standing still)- I told him the same order,-to get on the ground and to interlace his fingers. I think I used some very strong language as well. I know I said it with complete confidence and conviction.
He told his buddies to rush me that I would not shoot. All the sudden he complied and assumed the position and so did his buddies. About 3 minutes later (it seemed forever) the police showed up. I still had them at gunpoint. I was disarmed but not cuffed. I was taken two blocks to the police station and interviewed and informed they were charging me with felony menacing. I gave my statement and was released about 3 hours later. I was never booked or charged with anything and was given my weapon when I was told I could go.
Several days later my company discharged me as they had never had a situation where the employee had never not fired. The company policy was to fire anyone who used their weapon for any reason (go figure huh?)
The driver forced us into the situation. I held no malice to his error. We ended up becoming very close friends and have talked about the situation only one time. While we were talking, I told him I came real close to shooting those men. He told me he knew that and thats why they complied. I asked him how he knew? He said the pistol became rock solid and stopped moving around. And that was how he knew. I was doing my sight picture on the weapon.
I later discovered that the guys who were coming at us were violent felons,driving a stolen pickup, were drunk driving, had kidnapped a minor from Winter Park --all on that day we ran into them. So they never left the police station.
One other thing, the Police treated me like a criminal even after the situation and even advised me to stay out of Georgetown, that they had no place for gun happy guys like me. The local paper ran a story about the run in and painted me up as a crack pot with a gun (very liberal paper I guess) they had very few of the facts and never contacted me for my version of the situation.
What I did learn: communication is vital if your not alone. Tell others what needs to be done if you have more training and knowledge. Dont assume they will act as you would.
Try to get the police there fast but defend yourself if you have to do it.
Dont shoot to wound. Threat assesment is critical! The guy with the uzi mouth might be the right one to shoot first as the others will waver at the first gunshot. Or even the threat of being shot.
Despite what anyone else might think or say, you will be armchair quarterbacking me on this situation. I acted correctly and in my mind I was in the clear to defend myself,the driver and that money. It was my job and duty to do so.
I will never rely on the police to protect me. EVER.
I run this situation over in my head a lot. I have been shot at and have shot my weapon at others while in the Marines. I never had a doubt of my ability to use the weapon, I only wanted to make sure I was right to act and take a life or five if needed.
I hope none of you ever face this situation. And to the guys who think its cool to carry ccw and have the gun "print" they are looking for the wrong kind of action. Those guys should stop carrying until they realize the burden that comes with ccw. my .02 Dan
That's a great story. Please post it in my "When was the closest you've ever come to shooting someone?" thread.
+1 for sharing your story. I am happy for you that you didn't have to discharge your weapon. Only you know what was in your head. Only you, and your Maker, will ever know whether you did the right thing. You know, and you described so well, why you did what you did and how you are at peace with the decisions you made. Every incident is a chain of known and unknown factors. It is kind of like walking into the middle of a movie, watching ten minutes and then having to make a life or death decision about what should be done next. Often what you learn after the fact can be devastating and turn your whole thought process up-side down. Being armchair quarterbacked by people who have access to more information and without the stress of dealing with the imminent danger is less than productive. It is stupid.
I like the idea of thinking out scenarios and even mentally playing them out. I've never once had real life go the way it did in my head. Maybe some day.
Be alert. Be safe.
Wow, as stated, if you are not in your house and draw a weapon, the police will treat you as the criminal, so you say NOTHING. Also, if you CC, you had better have a CC lawyer right now, IMO.
You have to be ready to 'Lawyer up' if you do a shooting. Thats going to run about $20 Grand minimum? because this is not your house you are defending. The odds are running 80/20 I think, for taking out a gun, and taking out a gun and using it against "unarmed" opponents. Plus, they will most likely be minorities, which may bring in the race card, and you will not be able to bring up past arrests in court.
God, self-defense with a weapon sounds like a nightmare
I would like to know how much it costs on average to 'lawyer up' for a shooting. For a non-shooting/brandishing, its probably still a lawyer fee of 2-3000 if you are charged. Guessing
Dusty Johnson
12-02-2010, 19:56
Wow, as stated, if you are not in your house and draw a weapon, the police will treat you as the criminal, so you say NOTHING. Also, if you CC, you had better have a CC lawyer right now, IMO.
You have to be ready to 'Lawyer up' if you do a shooting. Thats going to run about $20 Grand minimum? because this is not your house you are defending. The odds are running 80/20 I think, for taking out a gun, and taking out a gun and using it against "unarmed" opponents. Plus, they will most likely be minorities, which may bring in the race card, and you will not be able to bring up past arrests in court.
God, self-defense with a weapon sounds like a nightmare
I would like to know how much it costs on average to 'lawyer up' for a shooting. For a non-shooting/brandishing, its probably still a lawyer fee of 2-3000 if you are charged. Guessing
"Defense of a criminal charge average in the neighborhood of $100,000 even if its a righteous shoot"
http://www.mmdbrokers.com/
Ok, I was just thinking about insurance for CC. So, are these guys having a good track record though? Know anything about them?
Its well worth the $ if its $350 a year. I think its a must.
http://www.mmdbrokers.com/
Hmmm, the NRA also has $250,000 of coverage for $250.00 a year. They have $100,000 coverage for less, so something is available for not alot of mula. Seems like a good deal,
I would like to hear more about people involved in protective shootings outside the house. I know that guy who shot the illegal stealing his trailer last year got weaned for 80-100,000 Gs, and his camper burned down, but that was not a clear cut shooting, he was outside the house and handled it badly. [Stooge]Forgot his name...
The DA let the illegals out and romp around stealing all the while...[Rant1]
If anything looks suspicious about your shooting, the NRA will drop you like a hot rock.
If anything looks suspicious about your shooting, the NRA will drop you like a hot rock.
I don't know what the rules are, but unless its clearcut, I'd think they have to put you through the system you paid for the coverage, and the system rules guilty or not. If your found guilty, you have a whole lot more trouble than bankruptcy.
http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28958
You'd think it'd be that way.
OgenRwot
12-03-2010, 21:04
I don't know what the rules are, but unless its clearcut, I'd think they have to put you through the system you paid for the coverage, and the system rules guilty or not.
You'd think it'd be that way.
It's the NRA...nothing surprises me anymore.
Well, then I would want to know what track record any cc insurance company has, does anyone have any track records? Have you heard of case studies with the NRA that they have dropped the ball, or is it just they are a little soft on semi-auto gunrights?
The only thing I know of was a guy who lived out in a rural area, called his insurance agent to discuss potentially switching his personal insurance to the same company as his business insurance company, the same company I was working for. The guy had like a 1/4 mile long driveway, and was messing around with his rifle when the agent showed up. The guy was watching the agent drive in through the scope of the rifle, pulled the trigger, and he ended up killing the agent by shooting him through his windshield.
The shooter had his commercial policy with the company I worked for, and he said that since the agent was coming over to discuss his commercial insurance, that it was related to his business so his commercial policy should cover him. The company didn't really agree, but didn't want to risk having to pay MORE money in punitive damages in court if they lost, so they just paid the full amount of damages on his commercial policy $2 million to the dead agent's family.
That was one of the first stories they told our class on our first day of training.
lead_magnet
12-04-2010, 18:48
I realize I'm chiming in here a little late, but I figured maybe my 2 cents might be of some value to someone.
First off, do whatever is nessessary to survive the event. I weigh 130 pounts and I'm guessing thier collective strength vs. mine is way too far tipped into thier favor for me to use my hands as a means of defending myself. Thats all I'm going to say about the pre-shooting situation, I agree with the others on directing questions to either leo's or lawyers.
My thoughts on the AFTER the shooting portion:
In this senario I would leave the immediate area, how do you know there aren't more? Get away and stay alive! I wouldn't go too far and I would be on the phone with 911 while I'm doing this.
On the phone with 911, tell them there has been a shooting and that you were attacked and need help, this should be a "help me!" call not a "come clean up my mess" call, remember you're still fleeing from these guys, they may or may not be down, you don't know for sure so you still need help. Rember this is recorded and EVERYTHING you do and say now is going to come under a microscope.
When the cops arrive, I am going to tell them something like this "I was attacked by three or four guys at (location), I had to fire my weapon to get away". Keep in mind these cops are people, you need to set the tone for the investigation right now! If you clam up and say nothing, what do you think they are going to be thinking. Probably something like "this asshole is hiding something..." and you've just become a "bad guy" in thier eyes, not where you want to be. Set the tone right of the bat that you are the good guy, you were attacked and had no other choice. Say as little as possible, don't say who shot who, how many shots fired, what exactly happened. Now is when you shut up, and I mean SHUT UP and ask for a lawyer. Name, address and the basic overview of what happened, thats it.
I know its against the norm to advocate talking to the police right after the shooting, you just have to think from thier shoes. If you start off on the wrong foot, they start look at you as the bad guy. You want them looking for evidence against the bad guys, not you. Keep it to one, maybe two sentences at most and then shut your trap.
Not to mention, whoever said that about going to the hospital, that is a VERY good idea, especailly if there was any sort of scuffle before the shooting.
One more word of warning. DO NOT get so affraid of the legal system, shooting unarmed men and pulling your gun in public etc. that you loose the fight because your're afraid of a judge. Do whats right, with the right intentions and things will work out. Unarmed or not these are MEN attacking you, most dangerous animal on the planet, and unless your built like arnold and have skills like jackie chan, you had damned well bring a weapon to a 3 vs. 1 fight, or start hoping your family gets a dicount on a pine box.
I never understood getting wrapped around the axel about defending yourself. It is all pretty straightforward, if you are in danger, real danger, then do what ever it takes to survive and avoid harm. It might sound cliched but I would always consider my safety and security first before considering what a court judge or jury might think. I would rather survive the immediate threat to my life and deal with any consequence later.
Most are reasonable people here, we are not criminals and we are not trigger happy thugs, so if you think you are in danger do whatever it takes, no matter what, to survive.
Everything else is not really an issue.
Cameron
This has been a very interesting thread to read and it's difficult to really know what you will do until the situation presents itself. Like others here, I've been in the military and have killed men in my life - but that was different on so many levels. When the enemy is coming at you they have one thing on their mind, kill, so it's a little easier to pull the trigger and put him down.
When you are talking about some guy on the street you have no idea what he is thinking, you can only make judgment based on his current actions and hope you are correct. I think I would question myself at some point if I shot someone, wondering "what was his intent?" and that would likely bother me for a long time.
I know a lot of gung-ho types that would shoot first and ask questions later. Even with my training and my self confidence in defending myself with or without a weapon, I have a pretty set policy of 1) diplomacy first - even in a fist fight, try to talk everyone down and make it a peaceful resolution - this includes giving some guy my wallet and my car if I have to, 2) compliance with what they want if it is within reason and keeps me and my loved ones safe, 3) run if possible and 4) fight as a last resort.
A friend of mine from the Army got into a fist fight some years back and went to prison for ten years because he was defending himself from an attacker and killed the attacker with his bare hands - but with his military training (and particularly his Ranger training) meant that he was judged as a deadly weapon. So it really doesn't matter if it's a gun, a stick or your bare hands, deadly force should be the last possible resort for any number of reasons.
If I had to fight then I would absolutely shoot to kill, no questions asked and no regrets and if I go to prison for it or lose everything I have defending my actions then that's the way it must be if it means that my life and the life of another is spared. Because I would have tried diplomacy and every other means to avoid it in the first place I can't beat myself up for the rest of my life when I tried every peaceful resolution.
Even though I see my CCW as a RIGHT and not a privilege, in reality and in the current climate, it is still a privilege and I'm not going to draw down on someone unless there just is no other way and risk my freedom just for the sake of taking advantage of my license to carry a firearm when there could be ANY other way to avoid it. That's a sad situation I suppose, but it's the real situation that we all live in - pull a gun and no matter what else happens, you are the aggressor.
I never understood getting wrapped around the axel about defending yourself. It is all pretty straightforward, if you are in danger, real danger, then do what ever it takes to survive and avoid harm. It might sound cliched but I would always consider my safety and security first before considering what a court judge or jury might think. I would rather survive the immediate threat to my life and deal with any consequence later.
Most are reasonable people here, we are not criminals and we are not trigger happy thugs, so if you think you are in danger do whatever it takes, no matter what, to survive.
Everything else is not really an issue.
Cameron
We are wrapped around the axle because the state will come after you, and try to put you in prison. Thats why we discuss insurance, because it will cost you past $50,000 to defend yourself in court. This is NOT a home based castle defense, they will come after you even if it was legit. They can't have vigilantees running around shooting criminals and getting off scott-free. Actually, the NRA I think filed the lawsuit to make CC a right, not dependent upon the chosen local Sheriff's opinion.
A 'casual' attitude could be detrimental on the part of the self-defended.
The only thing I know of was a guy who lived out in a rural area, called his insurance agent to discuss potentially switching his personal insurance to the same company as his business insurance company, the same company I was working for. The guy had like a 1/4 mile long driveway, and was messing around with his rifle when the agent showed up. The guy was watching the agent drive in through the scope of the rifle, pulled the trigger, and he ended up killing the agent by shooting him through his windshield.
The shooter had his commercial policy with the company I worked for, and he said that since the agent was coming over to discuss his commercial insurance, that it was related to his business so his commercial policy should cover him. The company didn't really agree, but didn't want to risk having to pay MORE money in punitive damages in court if they lost, so they just paid the full amount of damages on his commercial policy $2 million to the dead agent's family.
That was one of the first stories they told our class on our first day of training.
My God, this guy didn't go to jail for manslaughter? Broke 2 big rules and what was the consequence?
Thats also not about self-defense. I would like to hear some 'Urban' self-defense stories. I know alot of Urban areas ban gun CC, but there are 250,000 stories a year when a cc or gun in general was used in self-defence.
I don't remember if he went to jail or not.
gnihcraes
12-06-2010, 19:40
It's not the gang banger trying to steal your wallet, that you can possibly reason with by giving it up, its the mental case who really just doesn't care or understand social behavior or the consequences of his actions. That is the one to watch out for, turn and burn if at all possible. This seems to be the ones I've had experience with, mental and no reasoning with them.
gnihcraes
12-06-2010, 20:30
nu5j8C2Hrc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu5j8C2Hrc0)
Good video. Thanks for posting. It is worth the seven minutes to watch for anyone who is trying to decide whether a CCW is worth the hassle.
How many times has it been posted: Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
ldmaster
01-07-2011, 23:11
I've been there, done that, too. Had to defend myself and had to face the aftermath.
My advice is thus.
1. There is no law saying you have to STAY in the area the attack took place in, in fact it's quite justifiable for you to drive to the nearest place of safety before calling the police. You're fleeing for your life, and you have NO obligation to inform the police that you just had to fire your weapon IMMEDIATELY. You need to un-ass the area til you feel safe.
2. There is no time to determine if you can flee, there just isn't. And the law in Colorado does not require you to do so. There is the "sufficient time for reflection" standard that I've seen used though. I would never ever indicate that I "made a decision that I could not flee".
3. The moment the police arrive, you ARE under arrest - consider that this is the case until you know otherwise. They can and WILL charge you weeks or months later with an offense if they want to (happened to me).
4. Say nothing. If you feel you have to call 911 to report something, then use the bad-guys phone, if the bad guy does not have one, drive to a payphone. Getting away means you avoid any followup attack, and you give yourself time to come down a bit from your adrenaline high, you'll be spouting like a geyser on the phone if you call in the immediate aftermath on a cell phone. If you MUST make that immediate call, then call 911, say there's been trouble at your location, ask for medical and police and hang up. You'll get an immediate call back, dont answer. You dont have to explain a damn thing about why you didn't answer, you're the victim of a violent attack, of course you were not capable of doing anything useful for quite a long while. People who act calm on a 911 call are suspect, people who blather on about the fight will have it used against them, people who try to communicate the maximum amount of information, again, are building a case against themselves.
5. Do not respond to any commands from a dispatcher. They are not a police officer, and they are not there. Again, you've already hung up so this shouldn't come into play, but keep in mind that you cannot do yourself any good by staying on the phone with them.
6. Since you left the area before contacting the police, you can, and should, put your gun (unloaded) in plain view on the hood of your car and stepped away from it before they arrive. Don't put it IN your car, that subjects your car to a cursory search, your car should be LOCKED and parked legally.
7. You have nothing to "clear up" and no "side of the story" to tell. Your statement should be simple and very very brief.
I was driving home from work/school/etc. I was stopping to use the ATM when several (never give a number) threatening men demanded money from me and threatened my life. I drew my weapon and told them to leave me alone. When they attacked me, I shot at them.
never personalize it, like, "the guy in the white t-shirt came at me first, so I shot him" ALWAYS "they attacked me and I shot at THEM". If it's ONE guy, then it's easier.
this will not please the police officer, by now he's gotten the hint that you are NOT as cooperative victim. He's going to try to get more out of you, and at this point you have only ONE THING you need to ask for.
Medical help, you feel short of breath (you probably do) you feel dizzy and your left arm is aching. I dont care how young you are, you are dizzy and you ARE short of breath - it's the way adrenaline eliminates itself from your system. It causes narrow vision, blurry images, momentary deafness, vomiting and diarrhea. You DO need medical help. They cannot refuse your request, and in the face of this, to continue to question you shouldn't happen. While waiting for medical to arrive, the adrenaline will eliminate itself from your body and you can have a clearer head about what you need to say - which is "I think I need a lawyer before I talk to you". If he says you dont need one, then ask him if you are free to go - if you are NOT, then you must consider yourself under arrest (even though you aren't technically at this point).
There is absolutely NOTHING YOU CAN SAY that will make you look like a hero/victim in a self-defense situation. NOTHING. No matter how smart you think you are, when your words are read back to you in front of a jury I can guarantee you that you're going to regret saying them.
Cops are not your friend in this scenario. Never. They are "clean up" and aside from making sure nothing more bad happens, they are on a search for people to arrest. They often arrest BOTH parties in any kind of self-defense situation, dont count on a cop being sympathetic to you. A large segment of them actually believe that only cops have an absolute right to self-defense, yeah, no kidding. A citizen should "call 911" or "try to avoid trouble" or anything else. You dont know if this is the kind of cop you're talking to, so you should shut up.
Call someone to be with you at the crime scene, and immediately give them the key to your car. You should already have put your wallet in the car and any other things of a personal nature. If you're arrested the police CAN seize your car, in many cases as long as there is an adult there to take your car they will let them do it. Unless you like paying 300 dollars to get it out of impound. You do have to ID yourself to the police, but not law requires you to "produce ID". Just tell them your name, address and date of birth honestly and you're fine.
The police have a lifetime of indoctrination under YOUR belt. You went to school and learned that you had to have official permission to even go to the bathroom. You got a job and found that you had to tell the government about every penny you earned. You carefully measure the buttstock on that used shotgun you just bought, becaue if you're even 1/20th of an inch too short, you will go to prison and have your life's savings taken away. When you want to visit your grandmother you've also learned that you must submit yourself to someone groping your genetalia. You're already indoctrinated to "obey" authority. And the ultimate symbol of that authority is a police officer, you will almost WANT to talk to them at length. If they do the intimidation thing, well, most people cannot resist succumbing to the pressure - and while you're on adrenaline and potentially mentally injured? Forget it, you dont stand a chance. The deck is stacked against you. The chattiest person I ever got a statement out of was someone still high on adrenaline, a normally street-wise gangbanger talks AT LENGTH while under it's influence. Try to get them to even say "hi" an hour later and they'll just give you that blank empty stare they reserve for the police.
Your only chance to avoid their interrogation techniques is in asking for a lawyer, at that point if you've already identified yourself and your role in the incident - there is nothing more they can talk to you about concerning what happened. If they persist, start collecting business cards and ask for a supervisor. It WILL mark you out as "one of those people" (you know, those people who know their rights) and it wont make you any friends. But the last time I checked, no cop ever came forward to pay the defense costs of a citizen who defended themselves because they felt friendship for the citizen. You have no obligation to make that cops job one iota easier in this respect.
I DO understand the caveats that folks like Bailey's Guns post about asking your lawyer about this stuff, it keeps liability away. You should wield your lawyer like a weapon, carry his business card in your wallet and keep a spare in your car. Wave it around like a vorpal sword. You DONT have to have a lawyer under retainer to use his business card to cut off the police from talking to you.
While reading the statements about whether people should or should not be "required" to train, there is only ONE PLACE in the Bill of Rights that uses the language "Shall not be infringed", what part of that seems to allow the government to require ANYTHING?
ChunkyMonkey
01-08-2011, 01:01
Good write up. Thanks
gnihcraes
01-08-2011, 08:56
Call 911, tell them you have been the Innocent Victim of a crime, and where they need to arrive.
Massad Ayoob also says to do this when they arrive: Point out the person who attacked you, point out those who are witnesses, and that is about it I believe. I'll look for the video from Ayoob.
Dusty Johnson
01-09-2011, 11:41
I've been there, done that, too. Had to defend myself and had to face the aftermath.
My advice is thus.
1. There is no law saying you have to STAY in the area the attack took place in, in fact it's quite justifiable for you to drive to the nearest place of safety before calling the police. You're fleeing for your life, and you have NO obligation to inform the police that you just had to fire your weapon IMMEDIATELY. You need to un-ass the area til you feel safe.
2. There is no time to determine if you can flee, there just isn't. And the law in Colorado does not require you to do so. There is the "sufficient time for reflection" standard that I've seen used though. I would never ever indicate that I "made a decision that I could not flee".
3. The moment the police arrive, you ARE under arrest - consider that this is the case until you know otherwise. They can and WILL charge you weeks or months later with an offense if they want to (happened to me).
4. Say nothing. If you feel you have to call 911 to report something, then use the bad-guys phone, if the bad guy does not have one, drive to a payphone. Getting away means you avoid any followup attack, and you give yourself time to come down a bit from your adrenaline high, you'll be spouting like a geyser on the phone if you call in the immediate aftermath on a cell phone. If you MUST make that immediate call, then call 911, say there's been trouble at your location, ask for medical and police and hang up. You'll get an immediate call back, dont answer. You dont have to explain a damn thing about why you didn't answer, you're the victim of a violent attack, of course you were not capable of doing anything useful for quite a long while. People who act calm on a 911 call are suspect, people who blather on about the fight will have it used against them, people who try to communicate the maximum amount of information, again, are building a case against themselves.
5. Do not respond to any commands from a dispatcher. They are not a police officer, and they are not there. Again, you've already hung up so this shouldn't come into play, but keep in mind that you cannot do yourself any good by staying on the phone with them.
6. Since you left the area before contacting the police, you can, and should, put your gun (unloaded) in plain view on the hood of your car and stepped away from it before they arrive. Don't put it IN your car, that subjects your car to a cursory search, your car should be LOCKED and parked legally.
7. You have nothing to "clear up" and no "side of the story" to tell. Your statement should be simple and very very brief.
I was driving home from work/school/etc. I was stopping to use the ATM when several (never give a number) threatening men demanded money from me and threatened my life. I drew my weapon and told them to leave me alone. When they attacked me, I shot at them.
never personalize it, like, "the guy in the white t-shirt came at me first, so I shot him" ALWAYS "they attacked me and I shot at THEM". If it's ONE guy, then it's easier.
this will not please the police officer, by now he's gotten the hint that you are NOT as cooperative victim. He's going to try to get more out of you, and at this point you have only ONE THING you need to ask for.
Medical help, you feel short of breath (you probably do) you feel dizzy and your left arm is aching. I dont care how young you are, you are dizzy and you ARE short of breath - it's the way adrenaline eliminates itself from your system. It causes narrow vision, blurry images, momentary deafness, vomiting and diarrhea. You DO need medical help. They cannot refuse your request, and in the face of this, to continue to question you shouldn't happen. While waiting for medical to arrive, the adrenaline will eliminate itself from your body and you can have a clearer head about what you need to say - which is "I think I need a lawyer before I talk to you". If he says you dont need one, then ask him if you are free to go - if you are NOT, then you must consider yourself under arrest (even though you aren't technically at this point).
There is absolutely NOTHING YOU CAN SAY that will make you look like a hero/victim in a self-defense situation. NOTHING. No matter how smart you think you are, when your words are read back to you in front of a jury I can guarantee you that you're going to regret saying them.
Cops are not your friend in this scenario. Never. They are "clean up" and aside from making sure nothing more bad happens, they are on a search for people to arrest. They often arrest BOTH parties in any kind of self-defense situation, dont count on a cop being sympathetic to you. A large segment of them actually believe that only cops have an absolute right to self-defense, yeah, no kidding. A citizen should "call 911" or "try to avoid trouble" or anything else. You dont know if this is the kind of cop you're talking to, so you should shut up.
Call someone to be with you at the crime scene, and immediately give them the key to your car. You should already have put your wallet in the car and any other things of a personal nature. If you're arrested the police CAN seize your car, in many cases as long as there is an adult there to take your car they will let them do it. Unless you like paying 300 dollars to get it out of impound. You do have to ID yourself to the police, but not law requires you to "produce ID". Just tell them your name, address and date of birth honestly and you're fine.
The police have a lifetime of indoctrination under YOUR belt. You went to school and learned that you had to have official permission to even go to the bathroom. You got a job and found that you had to tell the government about every penny you earned. You carefully measure the buttstock on that used shotgun you just bought, becaue if you're even 1/20th of an inch too short, you will go to prison and have your life's savings taken away. When you want to visit your grandmother you've also learned that you must submit yourself to someone groping your genetalia. You're already indoctrinated to "obey" authority. And the ultimate symbol of that authority is a police officer, you will almost WANT to talk to them at length. If they do the intimidation thing, well, most people cannot resist succumbing to the pressure - and while you're on adrenaline and potentially mentally injured? Forget it, you dont stand a chance. The deck is stacked against you. The chattiest person I ever got a statement out of was someone still high on adrenaline, a normally street-wise gangbanger talks AT LENGTH while under it's influence. Try to get them to even say "hi" an hour later and they'll just give you that blank empty stare they reserve for the police.
Your only chance to avoid their interrogation techniques is in asking for a lawyer, at that point if you've already identified yourself and your role in the incident - there is nothing more they can talk to you about concerning what happened. If they persist, start collecting business cards and ask for a supervisor. It WILL mark you out as "one of those people" (you know, those people who know their rights) and it wont make you any friends. But the last time I checked, no cop ever came forward to pay the defense costs of a citizen who defended themselves because they felt friendship for the citizen. You have no obligation to make that cops job one iota easier in this respect.
I DO understand the caveats that folks like Bailey's Guns post about asking your lawyer about this stuff, it keeps liability away. You should wield your lawyer like a weapon, carry his business card in your wallet and keep a spare in your car. Wave it around like a vorpal sword. You DONT have to have a lawyer under retainer to use his business card to cut off the police from talking to you.
While reading the statements about whether people should or should not be "required" to train, there is only ONE PLACE in the Bill of Rights that uses the language "Shall not be infringed", what part of that seems to allow the government to require ANYTHING?
Would you be willing to tell us your story on how you had to defend yourself and what happened?
Thanks
If you do, put it in the thread I started about the time you came closest to shooting someone.
I'm old, I'm fat, I have two bad knees and a bad back. I can't run, and I can't fight young guys. But I DO carry a .45! "Getting jumped" by thugs could be fatal to me or leave me crippled, definitely have detrimental effects on my life. If anybody jumps me, they'd better run like hell when Mr. Loudmouth appears, or their momma's gonna be cryin'. I'm no badass, but if I'm threatened I'm not gonna fuck around. I'll fight until I can fire, and if I have to fire I'm not stopping until the BG's are down.
rockhound
02-13-2011, 12:55
I am not a large man either, that being said i have had some martial arts training off and on as well as I am no pu..y, I am not afraid of many people and have backed off many a loud mouth ahole with just my attitude, most recently over christmas, a guy that was threatening my mother's husband, he is 73. (yes technically my step father, but I have already had two dads and don't need a third)
when i am out and about I am generally with my family, a shoot no shoot scenarios such as this one is a no brainer for me. one guy three guys makes no difference. they are approaching myself and or my kids and wife, they will back off or die.
the threat to my family is more than enough justification in my mind to use any force necessary.
If you have your CCW, you should have gone through many many scenarios and legal circumstances with your instructor as Byte mentioned. It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.
Agreed. Not all training is equal. Kinda tough for a couple hour class to cover all the intricacies of the law.
Hands down best class I took about the OP's question was Southnarks. Bust out the Fist helmets and the Sim guns and do some role playing. Learned a lot just by watching others cycle through the drills.
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