View Full Version : I want to get a feeler for a first handgun purchase
Lex_Luthor
12-02-2010, 12:21
Hey everyone, I searched through the archives for about 15 pages, but didn't really see a thread about a first handgun purchase, although I'm sure there's got to be some in there.
Anyway, I am going to be in the market soon for a handgun, and would like it's primary function to be a home defense weapon, with the option for concealed carry. I am not entirely sure that I will apply for my ccw permit, but I have the option on the table more as a "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" option. I would prefer to stick to something not REALLY expensive as this will be my first handgun. I've been tossing some ideas around in my head and I've read up on and handled a few firearms lately. I think I will go with 9mm so I can get plenty of practice (myself and my fiance) without having to spend large amounts of $ on ammo. I would also like to get a .22 eventually (or should I make it my first?) for practice and plinking. I'm considering a Walther p22 or Sig Mosquito.
I've handled a few Glocks, but my hands aren't all that big and the grip doesn't feel very comfortable to me. I did like the Taurus 24/7 compact 9mm. I've seen some pretty good deals on cologunmarket.com for some Ruger P series. Although it would be awesome to get a Sig or HK, I don't think that's too realistic at this point, as far as cost goes. I'll be using my tax return, haha.
What are your suggestions?
Zundfolge
12-02-2010, 12:42
If you can find one priced within your budget (and if you're looking at Glocks it should be), the S&W M&P 9c is probably your best choice for a concealable (but not too tiny) polymer 9mm.
Taurus pistols aren't bad as long as you don't get a bad one ... the real problem with Taurus is their customer service.
You mentioned a Ruger P series ... their new SR9 is not a bad piece.
Go try some out at the range. How they feel when you just hold it and when you shoot it can be completely different. You test drive a car before you buy one, don't you? Most ranges have rentals that you can try out, especially if you are in the market for one. I suggest the best you can afford, that works well with you when shooting. Guns rarely depreciate and you usually get what you pay for, ie. more $$$ most likely means better quality & reliability. If a firearm is the same as another manufacturer but half the price....WHY? In the end, it's your decision, your money, and your life. Get what you are comfortable with, physically and financially and don't let anyone else make that decision for you.
Some reputable manufacturers include:
Glock
Springfield Armory
Smith & Wesson
Kimber (depending on who you talk to...net getting into that one here)
Ruger
Sig Sauer
HK
Walther
Browning
I would aviod these:
Star
Jennings
Hi-Point
anything that is an appearent knock off...
Hope this helps
BPTactical
12-02-2010, 13:28
Hey everyone, I searched through the archives for about 15 pages, but didn't really see a thread about a first handgun purchase, although I'm sure there's got to be some in there.
Anyway, I am going to be in the market soon for a handgun, and would like it's primary function to be a home defense weapon, with the option for concealed carry. I am not entirely sure that I will apply for my ccw permit, but I have the option on the table more as a "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" option. I would prefer to stick to something not REALLY expensive as this will be my first handgun. I've been tossing some ideas around in my head and I've read up on and handled a few firearms lately. I think I will go with 9mm so I can get plenty of practice (myself and my fiance) without having to spend large amounts of $ on ammo. I would also like to get a .22 eventually (or should I make it my first?) for practice and plinking. I'm considering a Walther p22 or Sig Mosquito.
I've handled a few Glocks, but my hands aren't all that big and the grip doesn't feel very comfortable to me. I did like the Taurus 24/7 compact 9mm. I've seen some pretty good deals on cologunmarket.com for some Ruger P series. Although it would be awesome to get a Sig or HK, I don't think that's too realistic at this point, as far as cost goes. I'll be using my tax return, haha.
What are your suggestions?
Well nobody can make the decision for you but I am sure you will get some good feedback here.
What kind of handgun experience do you have?
If this is your very first handgun and you have minimal trigger time I would strongly suggest against a Glock. They are awesome pistols and the AK-47 of the pistol world but they are a no nonsense combat handgun and are very unforgiving of an error in handling.
You mentioned a very important consideration: how it feels in your hand. The pistol has to be an extension of you and it will not matter what brand or how much you spend. If it does not feel right in your hand you will not like it, you will not shoot it to its full potential and this is not what you want in a defensive handgun.
Get what fits and feels RIGHT for YOUR hand, never mind what you buddy swears is right for you.
When I worked in a shop a very popular semi auto for first timers was the Springfield XD/XDM series. Good pistols with good safety features and a lifetime warranty for the rare occasion if there is a problem.
Ruger makes a decent pistol but to me they have always had the ergonomics of a brick and seemed clunky. At one point in time there was an issue with the slides flying off of higher round count pistols IIRC. The SR9 feels a bunch better but aside from handling them in a shop environment I have no trigger time on them.
Taurus is fair to poor, they have a lifetime warranty as well but it is also the warranty I saw used the most. Fit and finish leaves a bit to be desired. From a Gunsmiths point they are a PITA. Some of the parts are available only from the factory and they will not sell some parts, even to a FFL. They demand you send it back to the factory. Plus the fact they do not hold resale worth a damn. You do get what you pay for.
Take a look at the Smith and Wesson M&P line. Not overly expensive with a good company backing them, interchangeable backstrap to tweak the fit and they have a good track record for reliability.
SIG and HK are the top of the heap qualitywise, but you will pay for it. You will also be assured your money was spent well though. HK to me is the best execution of a polymer framed pistol and nothing else shoots as well IMHO.
Personally I am a die hard 1911 fan. Pretty hard to beat and a helluva track record but that is my personal preference.
You have better choices when it comes to 22 pistols than what you noted. Both are VERY finicky ammowise. This is one place where it is really hard to beat the Ruger MK III lineup. They have basically been around since the 50's and are reliable as hell. They will digest about any ammo made, decent ergonomics similar to the feel of a Luger and with the fiance' learning to shoot recoil is minimal due to the weight of them.
For around the house it is hard to beat a 12 gauge with a pistol grip and 18" barrel. Just the sound of the slide racking is enough to make a punk re-evaluate their intentions. You don't have to be as perfect of aim in a SHTF situation, and one thing to consider is what happens if you miss. A high velocity handgun round can easily end up 3 houses down in Mrs Jone knitting on her couch.
Buckshot or Birdshot will not over penetrate as much but it will stop a bad guy with ill intent.
Go to a shop with a good selection and get as much hands on with different firearms as possible. Try to find people that own pistols you are interested in and get some trigger time.
Buy a .22 first. You've gotten good advice above to get what feels right to you, or what works best for you. The problem is that you don't know yet what you like. Even a quick test drive will not be very effective considering your limited experience.
I'd buy a .22, and I'm partial to the Ruger 22/45 or the Browning Buckmarks. Shoot it a lot. Once you have 5,000 rounds down it, you'll probably know how to shoot and be a more discerning buyer.
While you're shooting those 5,000 rounds, take every opportunity to shoot every gun you can get your hands on. Once you have a pistol, you'll find yourself at the range a lot. A respectful and polite request to shoot someone's gun (and an offer to pay for the ammo) will often yield you an opportunity to try something new.
Once all that it done, I think your decision will be easy because you'll know what you like.
Edited to add: It's a long drive, but if you'd like to try an XD in 9mm, some high end 1911's, and a selection of revolvers, I'd be happy to help. Others here would too, I'll bet.
ghettodub
12-02-2010, 14:25
Go to a shop with a good selection and get as much hands on with different firearms as possible.
This. Can't stress this one enough. Regardless of what our opinions are, a big part of it will be seeing how it feels and fits your hand. Gotta make sure it's easy to handle, and that you are confident in handling it if shit ever does hit the fan [Beer]
StagLefty
12-02-2010, 14:26
Go Tanner Gun Show this weekend. You don't have to buy but it will give you a chance to shop and handle guns that interest you. That should help with a decision. JMHO [Beer]
BPTactical
12-02-2010, 14:47
Go Tanner Gun Show this weekend. You don't have to buy but it will give you a chance to shop and handle guns that interest you. That should help with a decision. JMHO [Beer]
Stag you are a genius of the obvious! The Gunshow is a great place to go and fondle various items and get a feel for what fits you.
Besides you can invest in some overpriced beef jerky and get stocking stuffers with all the knick-knacks and crafts for sale!
One thing to think about- if you decide you want to try a SIG but don't want to plunk the big bottle of Glue for one keep your eyes open for a P6. Great little single stack 9mm and the last one I saw was about 350.00.
Good deal for a great pistol.
SA Friday
12-02-2010, 16:54
Buy what feels good to shoot for you.
Buy quality, don't skimp and get a POS, get something that will consistantly run (Taurus isn't quality, nor are the P series Rugers).
Buy an ass-load of ammo.
Practice a lot.
Professional training shortens the learning curve.
Everything else is pretty much fluff.
Eldorado556
12-02-2010, 20:04
Handling all the pistols you can is the best advice. I was in the market for a 9mm auto and settled on the Springfield XDM-9. I have small hands and it was the only one that had controls I could easily operate with one hand.
Getting a .22 pistol to start with is good also. 9mm is fairly inexpensive but you can shoot all day with $10 of .22lr. I have a Ruger Mark II I picked up used for a little under $300.
No matter what gun you get, you will never, EVER say to yourself, "Boy, I wish I would have gotten that cheaper gun."
Lex_Luthor
12-03-2010, 09:45
Thanks for the responses, and for moving my thread. I didn't realize I posted it in the wrong section. I have had some handgun shooting experience, but not a lot. I primarily want a gun that both myself and my fiance can shoot, and have a good time doing it. Thanks for the info on the Sig P6, I like it, and I really do like Sigs a lot, I just figured they were out of my range because I see them at $700+ a lot. I will have to keep my eyes out for the next gun show; I won't be able to go this weekend. I've talked to a couple friends who have some firearms they'd be willing to let me shoot, as well as my cousin in the Springs. If I get the chance to make it down there, maybe some others can join up!
No matter what gun you get, you will never, EVER say to yourself, "Boy, I wish I would have gotten that cheaper gun."
Some folks have said that to themselves. Think XD(m) vs. Glock.
I was waiting for someone to tell the story of how they ditch Kimber for Glock.
I was waiting for someone to tell the story of how they ditch Kimber for Glock.
hehe, I did... just wasn't a 1911 guy....
BPTactical
12-03-2010, 11:16
hehe, I did... just wasn't a 1991 guy....
I would drop a Kimber or Para and grab a Glock in a heartbeat. At least the Glock is gonna go Boom everytime.
[Tooth]
Lex_Luthor
12-07-2010, 13:33
Thanks for the input guys, and for those of you that offered to let me try your guns for an idea of what I'd want in a first pistol. I really like the Sig P6, and have found some pretty enticing deals online. I'll also keep my eyes on the Classifieds here and other sites as well. I think learning a lesson in patience will help me make a wise choice, and I'm actually pretty glad I don't have the money yet, so it's not just burning a hole in my pocket, and have me drooling over every firearm I see.[Bounce]
I have mainly had hand guns since I have been shooting and collecting. My first thing I would tell you is take some time and go to the nearest guns shop around and hold the gun. Get a gun that is comfortable if this is going to be a PDW of yours. You want accuracy. That comes much easier with a gun you are comfortable with. Get one that is reliable. You don't want to sacrifice that at all. With those two main issues down, next would be cal size. I love my 45's, but my wife hates em and fell in love with her new 380. 22's are just too damn small to consider I think for a PDW. Then there is the actual gun and a lot of us will throw out our two cents on what is the best. Frankly if you had the money I would tell you to go get a MK23 and you will never look at another hand gun the same after owning one. Manufactures I would recommend with new lower priced guns would be Sig, and Walther. I know you can get a Sig P250 45 in full size or compact DAO for $370 new. The Walthers for a PK380 run about $310. The nice thing about the Walther is the contoured handle that my wife loves to death and size. Anyway, go check the feel of some out.
CO-Exprs
12-10-2010, 17:09
The glock G19/G23 are probably the most versatile handguns on the planet. A friend of mine always says, the biggest gun that carries like a small gun, the smallest gun that shoots like a big gun. I hate Glocks, but own a G23, because of the versatility, functionality, upgradability and shootability. The ergos and sights just plain suck and it has the sex appeal of a brick, but when your behind the sights they just plain work and work well. To me, they defy all conventional wisdom, and yet they manage to do very well, that which they simply shouldn't be able to. If you can't get on board the G train, then the S&W M&P 9c is a very good choice too. The ergos are better, its more comfortable to shoot and works extremely well too. I would try to find one with the external safety. You don't have to use it if you don't want, but its there for an extra measure. I also can't tell you how fast you will accelerate your learning curve by getting a 22 and burning about 20 bricks. The ability to work on sight picture and trigger control while isolating recoil inpulse will really help you develope your skills faster. I am a heavy competitor in the local USPSA single stack division so I'm not recoil shy, but I still run as many rounds through my box stock Buckmark as I do through my 45. Its all trigger time. Good luck with your purchase.
ronaldrwl
12-10-2010, 17:35
Come to the shoot Saturday morning and you can try some different ones.
Lex_Luthor
12-13-2010, 13:48
Thanks for the invite! Sorry I didn't make it, Saturdays are pretty hectic for me usually. I will keep my eyes out for the next shoot, as I'd really like to meet some of you, and I'm very appreciative of the offers for me to shoot some of your firearms. :D
patrick0685
12-14-2010, 03:51
the biggest thing is how it fits you, i love my xd's because i know i can pull the gun up and the site picture will be perfect every time, find that gun and never look back[Beer]
Lex_Luthor
12-14-2010, 10:59
I went to the store and held a few. I still haven't gotten to hold a Sig p6, which I would love to give that gun a try. I did like the Walther pk380 though, it felt really nice. I held a xd9c and liked it for the most part, but I'm not a huge fan of the trigger mechanism thingy. I like external safeties....
Byte Stryke
12-14-2010, 13:34
I will echo the sentiment that everyone else here has stated
Gets lots of hands on a variety of weapons before committing to one.
I will disagree with the Anti-Ruger statements.
Ive had a P-89 and I now own a KP944
Both are/were really reliable weapons.
I wont sit here and Bash or prop one brand over another.
its like the ford/GM/Ferrari argument. each and every brand has their purpose and they perform that purpose well.
More to the point I would like to discuss Purpose and Caliber.
I noticed you are leaning towards a 9mm for home defense and was wondering why.
Unless you are planning on firing on targets inside of a car, on the other side of a door, etc do you really want a round with so much penetration?
It's just my opinion but I think you should be considering Caliber before brand name, then sort and try them out from there.
Lex_Luthor
12-14-2010, 16:51
I gotcha. That is definitely something to consider. I am looking for a good gun to cover a few areas.
1. First handgun purchase - something quality, reliable, but also not TOO expensive as I'm on a shortened budget.
2. CCW option - not too big (I'm 5'8", 145lbs) but not as small as a .22
3. Initial cost and cost for plenty of practice
4. I want my fiance to get accustomed to handling/firing a pistol so she has the option and ability to use it while at home alone. (pitbull insurance currently in use :D)
5. Enjoyability and practicality to shoot and spend some time together on the range or out in open land on hikes, camping, etc.
My fiance is under 5 feet tall, fairly small, so I don't think she would be too comfortable firing something like a .45. I think I'm leaning toward 9mm or .38 for those reasons. I am not planning on shooting through anything, no. I have considered the idea of a shotgun for home defense as well, but I think I'd like to get started with a handgun purchase to get the fiance used to the idea of having a gun in the home. She was against it until she saw my reasoning.
jerrymrc
12-14-2010, 17:20
I gotcha. That is definitely something to consider. I am looking for a good gun to cover a few areas.
1. First handgun purchase - something quality, reliable, but also not TOO expensive as I'm on a shortened budget.
2. CCW option - not too big (I'm 5'8", 145lbs) but not as small as a .22
3. Initial cost and cost for plenty of practice
4. I want my fiance to get accustomed to handling/firing a pistol so she has the option and ability to use it while at home alone. (pitbull insurance currently in use :D)
5. Enjoyability and practicality to shoot and spend some time together on the range or out in open land on hikes, camping, etc.
My fiance is under 5 feet tall, fairly small, so I don't think she would be too comfortable firing something like a .45. I think I'm leaning toward 9mm or .38 for those reasons. I am not planning on shooting through anything, no. I have considered the idea of a shotgun for home defense as well, but I think I'd like to get started with a handgun purchase to get the fiance used to the idea of having a gun in the home. She was against it until she saw my reasoning.
Your going to want to try many. Now I will say that there are many factors besides caliber you have to look at. The smallest caliber does not mean the gun will shoot soft so to speak.
My wife is under 5' as well. Her gun of choice is the Makarov after a few tweaks. I know many that do not like to shoot the smaller pistols because they can be a handful.
For the most part the heaver the gun vs the smaller the caliber makes an easy recoiling gun.
Size of the grip and the angle are some of the other factors that will come into play.
Some for me are very easy to shoot and some are more of a challenge. Since you are new to this and are not set on what you like or dislike (like us old farts) the field is wide open.
Just some thoughts.:)
Byte Stryke
12-15-2010, 05:42
I gotcha. That is definitely something to consider. I am looking for a good gun to cover a few areas.
1. First handgun purchase - something quality, reliable, but also not TOO expensive as I'm on a shortened budget.
2. CCW option - not too big (I'm 5'8", 145lbs) but not as small as a .22
3. Initial cost and cost for plenty of practice
4. I want my fiance to get accustomed to handling/firing a pistol so she has the option and ability to use it while at home alone. (pitbull insurance currently in use :D)
5. Enjoyability and practicality to shoot and spend some time together on the range or out in open land on hikes, camping, etc.
My fiance is under 5 feet tall, fairly small, so I don't think she would be too comfortable firing something like a .45. I think I'm leaning toward 9mm or .38 for those reasons. I am not planning on shooting through anything, no. I have considered the idea of a shotgun for home defense as well, but I think I'd like to get started with a handgun purchase to get the fiance used to the idea of having a gun in the home. She was against it until she saw my reasoning.
I would have to believe the recommendation for a .22 wasn't intended for the defense as much as it was for practicing your Basic pistol marksmanship.
500 rounds of 22LR is a hella cheaper that 500 rounds of .45ACP.
The recoil is different, but the mechanics are the same.
+1 on the tiny stature wife. Mine says she likes my KP944 (All Metal) because the heavier frame absorbs more of the recoil than my XD.
Go Figure.
I gotcha. That is definitely something to consider. I am looking for a good gun to cover a few areas.
1. First handgun purchase - something quality, reliable, but also not TOO expensive as I'm on a shortened budget. Get the best you can afford. Save longer if you have to. Don't get a cheap gun just to save a few bucks....
2. CCW option - not too big (I'm 5'8", 145lbs) but not as small as a .22 I'm not much larger & I carry a full size 1911, even in the summer. comcealment is more a matter of clothing selection than body config.
3. Initial cost and cost for plenty of practice Again, something with a .22 conversion or similar in .22 is advisible (the wife will love it)
4. I want my fiance to get accustomed to handling/firing a pistol so she has the option and ability to use it while at home alone. (pitbull insurance currently in use :D) Again, the .22 is ideal to start her with
5. Enjoyability and practicality to shoot and spend some time together on the range or out in open land on hikes, camping, etc. It's a firearm & being outside, what's not to enjoy!
My fiance is under 5 feet tall, fairly small, so I don't think she would be too comfortable firing something like a .45. I think I'm leaning toward 9mm or .38 for those reasons. I am not planning on shooting through anything, no. I have considered the idea of a shotgun for home defense as well, but I think I'd like to get started with a handgun purchase to get the fiance used to the idea of having a gun in the home. She was against it until she saw my reasoning.
Lex_Luthor
12-15-2010, 12:03
I would have to believe the recommendation for a .22 wasn't intended for the defense as much as it was for practicing your Basic pistol marksmanship.
500 rounds of 22LR is a hella cheaper that 500 rounds of .45ACP.
The recoil is different, but the mechanics are the same.
Yeah I'm aware of that. I do want a .22 and it'll be for practice and plinking fun for sure. I think that'll definitely be a second gun purchase. I'd rather go for the defense/concealment gun first, practice the hell out of it, pick up a second one when $$ allows, and continue practicing the hell out of both. +1 for the cost of .22 ammo!
+1 on the tiny stature wife. Mine says she likes my KP944 (All Metal) because the heavier frame absorbs more of the recoil than my XD.
Go Figure.
Cool, yeah I definitely won't skimp on a firearm. I'd much rather have something that would outlast me so I could pass it down the line.
You know, I didn't put this in earlier and since I just mentioned this in another post, I thought I should put it in this one for you. As I stated earlier, my wife picked up a PK380 because of its fit, and size. It is a nice gun. A lot of people look down on the 380 because of the size of the round. However when you compare what you can get for a 380, by that I mean a 95 grain +P JHP rated at 1125 fps compared to the standard 9mm at 115 grains and 1190 fps, you're not too far off. For a home protection or a carry piece I think that will do ok. Whatever you get, just make sure you practice. Placement is the key.
cwripinz
01-01-2011, 12:17
I realize that this may not be a popular position to take, but here goes... What about a nice, solid, dependable, simple PDW like a S&W Model 65 Wheel Gun for a First Handgun? It checks off all of the boxes and even more. You can practice with relatively cheap .38 Special Loads and carry something like Remington Golden Sabers or 158 Grain Honnady XTP JHP in +P for that .357 Magnum "Effectiveness" when you NEED it. Round Counts in PD Scenarios tend to be very low... 3 to 5 rounds expended... perfect 6-Gun Territory. No Safety, 3" or 4" Barrel, Stainless Steel, Good Size Frame (I liked mine so much that I got one for my Mom... 5'1/2" @ 110-ish lbs... I put a nice set of Houges on it for her... out at 50 feet she will put 3 rapid-fire, center-mass every time... arthritis and all... she is 86 years old... DO NOT Mess With Momma). Simple and Highly Effective. No Sight to Adjust (Top Strap is Notched and Barrel Blade is Fixed in Position). Factory Trigger Pull is nice, too, and can be smithed to accommodate a wide range of requirements. Cheap to practice with and plenty of BOOM when required. I strongly suggest that you go out to a range (like Firing Line) where they have similar guns that you can rent (cheaply) and and run a few rounds through it... you and your wife... and some other Wheel Guns, too. Not as Sexy or Gee-Whiz as an Automatic, but much simpler to maintain and every bit as effective in a PDW scenario... in some cases, even more so as "clearing a jam or misfire" requires merely pulling the trigger again to cycle the cylinder & hammer into the next firing position. Additionally, I feel that this is a much more reasonable alternative to buying Two Quality Weapons (a .22 to practice with and then something else you are really going to carry) as Practicing with One Weapon and Betting Your Life on a Completely Different Weapon makes no sense to me. This is a very handily sized PDW for Easy Conceal/Carry. No Rust Issues in SS and Really Easy to Clean, too! Worried about the Hammer Tang Catching on Clothing? You can just Just Grind It Off! I keep one next to my bed loaded with Remington Golden Sabers and I sleep very soundly... here it is:
5485
(CLICK ON THUMBNAIL FOR LARGER IMAGE)
Troublco
01-03-2011, 09:52
BPTactical, SA Friday, Byte, and others have really covered this. But cwripinz does have a vaild point, IMHO. No reason a wheelgun couldn't be a valid alternative. Ultra reliable, available with exposed, shrouded, or concealed hammer, good range of calibers, and the ability to easily change grips to fit you. Wood, plastic, rubber, take your pick. My GP pistol for hunting, travel, and everything else for years was my 686; only recently replaced by my Glock 20. Only downside I can really see is that .38 Special isn't as cheap as it used to be for practice, but the 357 is still a good round and Glasers take care of the overpenetration issue.
Otherwise, purely for the home defense issue, I second BP's shotgun suggestion. Even birdshot, used at home defense distances, will make a big hole; and it doesn't have the overpenetration issue as the small pellets will quickly lose energy and not go through the house next door's wall even if they make it through yours. Practice ammo is cheap and readily available (100 packs of Federal or Winchester at Wal-Mart). And you have the psychological factor of having the person on the other end looking down a sewer pipe contemplating their next move.
Lex_Luthor
01-06-2011, 10:15
Thanks guys! I haven't really considered a revolver yet. I know there are some really great guns out there, and it's great to add that to the list of things to research. I'm leaning toward getting a shotgun for home defense, because I live in pretty close proximity to a school. I'd rather not have to encounter a situation where I had a stray bullet fly through my house in that direction. I just don't know yet what I want to get first. I still want to get a pistol for my fiance, so I'm considering the PK380 due to the lightened slide pull. She has carpal tunnel syndrome, and she's trying to fight it off. I want her to be able to proficiently and confidently operate it. I'm considering a Mossberg 12 guage for home defense with some bird shot maybe, but if the situation arises where she's home alone, I doubt if she can effectively operate a shotgun yet. That'll be something I'll have to take her to practice on. So now I have to consider what to get first? I'm still leaning toward the pistol first. Still gotta wait for my tax return though, and I'll be suing my ex boss as well, so that might open up a little financial breathing room. :)
ghettodub
01-06-2011, 10:28
I still want to get a pistol for my fiance, so I'm considering the PK380
I haven't fired one, but I'm a huge fan of my P22, and it's my favourite pistol to shoot. I'd like to pick up the .380 version as well.
I still want to get a pistol for my fiance, so I'm considering the PK380 due to the lightened slide pull.
I am not a small caliber fan by any means, but I have to admit my fondness for my wifes PK380. You won't be sorry about the purchase. I think it will be a great first hand gun purchase for you two.
cwripinz
01-08-2011, 18:17
I'm seeing a lot of REALLY good advice in this thread. Great Job Y'all!
IMHO: As a PDW Weapons Pairing, the 12 Gauge Pump Gun is an IDEAL Home Defense Weapon and a Snub Nosed .357 Wheel Gun is a Very Good General Purpose PDW. And... as an illustration of my fondness for such a pairing... on my side of the bed is that S&W Model 65 .357 3" with Golden Sabers I discussed earlier in this thread. On the wife's side is the Remington 870 18" Marine Magnum 12 Gauge Pump with some Very Nasty Loads in the feed tube and one waiting up the pipe. Flick off the safety and squeeze the easy-applicator trigger... BOOOOOMMMMM! Schklick-Clack... BOOOOOMMMMM! Repeat as required.
If your wife has carpel tunnel syndrome, she will find the 12 Gauge Pump Gun much more "User Friendly" than either Revolvers or Semi Autos. Yes, it's a bunch bigger, but that pump is very easy to work... and let's not forget the psychological impact upon an intruder when hearing someone jacking in a shell... that is a VERY DISTINCTIVE Sound, indeed. (I keep one up the pipe as I feel that giving warning by jacking in a round is more courtesy than a miscreant in my abode deserves. But I realize that there are those of a differing mind set. Both positions are valid... especially so with "little ones" at home.) Plus, if your wife does "let fly" with a volley or two, that 12 Gauge's Mass will be much less detrimental to her already distressed extremities than any excepting the smallest of Pistols out there.
And let's not discount the 12 Gauge's added advantage of not having to be pinpoint accurate in a potential "high adrenaline" situation in order to "get the job done".
Yes... a Compact 12 Gauge Pump and a Snubby Magnum Wheel Gun. Very Formidable.
As a side note: I'm a BIG FAN of Alloy, Stainless and Nickel Weapons. Reduced Corrosion Issues... that's "good news" to me. Well worth the negligible added cost.
You don't have to be "pinpoint" accurate, but you still have to be just as accurate as with a pistol.
cwripinz
01-09-2011, 16:05
You don't have to be "pinpoint" accurate, but you still have to be just as accurate as with a pistol.
I must differ here, Stuart. That "spray" out of a 12 Gauge in a Household Defense Scenario affords so much more advantage with greatly diminished accuracy requirements and much improved "return on investment" over a pistol... especially that of the .380 currently being considered by this thread's initiator.
If I'm 6" off target with a 12 Foot Center Mass .380 shot, that could glance off of ribs or just stick in the meat of the flank, arm or shoulder... heck, maybe even do a thru-n-thru. Heck, a High Quality Leather Jacket with a Sweater under it is likely to defeat that .380 round. At 12 Feet that 12 Gauge 3" Magnum with 000 Buckshot is delivering about 10 Pellets at 71 Grains Each of .36 inch Diameter (.36 Cal.) in a roughly 5" pattern at roughly 1300 fps. If I pop someone in the Shoulder or Bicep or get a Rib Glance with a .380 from 12 feet, they might just keep on coming... heck, it the heat of the moment they might not even be aware of being shot! If I do the same thing with 000 Buckshot out of a 12 Gauge packing a 3" Magnum Shell, they are, without question:
a) Getting Knocked Violently To The Ground
b) Going To Know That They Have Been Shot
c) Not Getting Up
and/or
d) Going To Die
In other words, neutralizing the assailant's threat quickly and efficiently. After all... that is the objective of this exercise.
If one is concerned about the thru-n-thru potential with 000 Buckshot, then might I suggest 2-3/4" Shells with #1 Buckshot? 15 Pellets of about 40 Grains each in .30" Diameter (.30 Cal)... with a lessened liklihood of "wall penetration" in about the same spread or pattern that transfers the same, or even more, energy into the target than the 000 Buckshot Shell.
This Webpage provides some very useful insight into the matter of Shotguns and Good Tactical Loads for Home Defense: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Excellent Impartial Home Defense Shotgun vs Pistol Analysis as well as In-Depth Load Analysis & Recommendations. It's only one page and well worth quick read. Don't forget to click on the Ammunition Preformance Data link in the article. More great data!
12ga - 2-3/4" 00 Buck > Any other 12ga load. IMO.
A 5" spread @ 12yds is a bit of a stretch. And "Getting Knocked Violently To The Ground"? Pretty much only in Hollywood. You're still going to have to aim with a shotgun.
I guess we'll just have to disagree. Guns don't violently knock people down.
Please watch the 4th video down.
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2010/10/08/firearms-training-incredible-videos-and-my-comments/
I realize this video is fake though, since the assistant didn't run away when the shooter pumped a round into the chamber of the shotgun.
I don't know what Mansions you guys live in, but in my house, the barrel of a 12 ga would practically reach the other side of the room. So how much "spray" is there? I am totally in disagreement with a 12 ga for home defense because you don't have to aim. If the argument is over-penetration, I'm all for a 12 ga. Right now, there's a 45 Glock with Crismson Trace by my bed, and I am happy to have it there.
For a first gun, get a mid-size or full size, preferably polymer framed, name brand 9mm. One with a thumb safety is best. Once you know that gun, you can expand into the guns that are harder to mainpulate (pocket pistols) or need more situational awareness (revolvers and safe-action semis).
cwripinz
01-09-2011, 18:22
C'mon Guys... Mansion? It's an 18" Barrel... waist height... shoot from the hip or across your waist and use your body as a brace and anchor. If you can walk down the hall... your 12 gauge can come with you. Still too big? Try changing out the stock for a pistol grip. And, yeah, about a 5" spread including outliers... a tight pattern would be 3".... normal would be about 4". Average pattern spread is about 1" per yard with those loads. Don't believe me? Check out http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm#Federal Want a bigger spread? They tested some Home Defense Loads that had about DOUBLE that!
I didn't say "blow 'em back out the window" like that fake movie stuff. Contemplate being hit in the chest with a sledge hammer. That will VIOLENTLY DROP SOMEONE TO THE GROUND... Just like a 12 Gauge. It ain't gonna blow them back out the window... through a door... or a wall. Both are gonna hurt... Both are gonna leave a mark... and Both are gonna drop them into a heap on the floor like dropping a wet rag.
Additionally, I did not say that you do not have to aim. I said that the 12 Gauge requires a lesser degree of accuracy to do the same (or better) job and, as anyone who has ever been unfortunate enough to be in a close proximity gun battle will tell you, a little lattitude in that area can make all of the difference... to that end, please use link in paragraph 1.
There is a reason that the Military and the Police have been using basically the same 12 Gauge Shotguns that you can buy for nearly a century... they work.
using #4 buck seems like a good choise to me. That is what I use.
FWIW
Randy
whatever you have is better than nothing at all.
I am a “newbie” but I am focused on three items. 1) Whatever the firearm, make sure there is a good fit for the hand. 2) To carry, there needs to be a “good fit” on the body and 3) if drawn, the adrenaline level will be over the top. From this perspective, I have a Kel Tek PF9 (single stack 9mm). Now just a lot of practice. This is not the “fun gun” for relaxing at the range; this is one only for CC.
I don't know what Mansions you guys live in, but in my house, the barrel of a 12 ga would practically reach the other side of the room. So how much "spray" is there? I am totally in disagreement with a 12 ga for home defense because you don't have to aim. If the argument is over-penetration, I'm all for a 12 ga. Right now, there's a 45 Glock with Crismson Trace by my bed, and I am happy to have it there.
For a first gun, get a mid-size or full size, preferably polymer framed, name brand 9mm. One with a thumb safety is best. Once you know that gun, you can expand into the guns that are harder to mainpulate (pocket pistols) or need more situational awareness (revolvers and safe-action semis).
Not to bring back the home defense thread, but your Glock overpenetrates more than most 12 ga rounds. Watch this (http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm)
patrick0685
01-16-2011, 19:03
al-x have you decided on anything?
Lex_Luthor
01-17-2011, 12:55
Thanks for all the replies guys. I haven't fully decided on anything yet, but I'm definitely leaning toward a 12ga and the PK380. I think it's now just a matter of which to choose first. Price-wise, they are going to be fairly similar, the shotgun can be had for a bit less. I think I will still consider getting the PK380 first, so we both can spend some time at the range, and for her to get familiar with a gun. I'm thinking I might get a Mossberg 12ga with 18" or 20" barrel, and find one with pistol grip and shoulder stock combination. My fiance has the carpal tunnel synd in her right wrist, which would be the one taking most of the impact on recoil, so shoulder support would definitely help. I want the option of the handgun so I/we (she, if she's interested but that might take some time and communication/convincing) can apply for ccw in the near future.
The main thing is to just wait for funds to permit a gun purchase. I'm dedicating my tax return to it, and I'll be filing the lawsuit against my ex-employer (thread about it in the general discussion forum) soon. I'm quite certain that the lawsuit will take more time than my tax return to get here, so I'm being patient and doing lots of reading. :)
Lex_Luthor
01-28-2011, 13:04
I've been seeing some used Smith & Wesson SW99's for decent (comparable to a new PK380) prices too.... Now I'm wondering if I should just go with 9mm or .40 and pick up a SW99.
Thoughts?
Personal preference. If you are set on a semi-auto, try the 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .357 SIG. I personally like handguns that can switch calibers with a barrel change. Options are good.
Generally if you can hit the target consistently with those calibers, you can stop the threat.
I must differ here, Stuart. That "spray" out of a 12 Gauge in a Household Defense Scenario affords so much more advantage with greatly diminished accuracy requirements and much improved "return on investment" over a pistol... especially that of the .380 currently being considered by this thread's initiator.
Well I am going to have to call bullshit, or stupidity on this part here. I currently own a 380 and bought one for my wife. They can be almost affective as a 9mm with +P ammo and with fang face rounds, a lot more affective.
If I'm 6" off target with a 12 Foot Center Mass .380 shot, that could glance off of ribs or just stick in the meat of the flank, arm or shoulder... heck, maybe even do a thru-n-thru. Heck, a High Quality Leather Jacket with a Sweater under it is likely to defeat that .380 round. You see, I have to interrupt at this sentence also and call BS or stupidity once again. You apparently don't know much about a 380 and must believe everything you read by ignorant people. I have personally put a normal 380 round through a 3mm cast iron skillet (wife's old one, she got a new one). At 12 Feet that 12 Gauge 3" Magnum with 000 Buckshot is delivering about 10 Pellets at 71 Grains Each of .36 inch Diameter (.36 Cal.) in a roughly 5" pattern at roughly 1300 fps. If I pop someone in the Shoulder or Bicep or get a Rib Glance with a .380 from 12 feet, they might just keep on coming... heck, it the heat of the moment they might not even be aware of being shot! First of all cupcake, if you shoot someone with a 380, they are going to feel it. If you Shoot them with the right ammo (fang face), they are going down. If I do the same thing with 000 Buckshot out of a 12 Gauge packing a 3" Magnum Shell, they are, without question:
a) Getting Knocked Violently To The Ground BS
b) Going To Know That They Have Been Shot True, look at that, one true statement....... luck.....
c) Not Getting Up and/or Lie, there are plenty of vids on this in real life situations.
d) Going To Die You could easily kill someone with a 380 by the way.
In other words, neutralizing the assailant's threat quickly and efficiently. After all... that is the objective of this exercise.
If one is concerned about the thru-n-thru potential with 000 Buckshot, then might I suggest 2-3/4" Shells with #1 Buckshot? 15 Pellets of about 40 Grains each in .30" Diameter (.30 Cal)... with a lessened liklihood of "wall penetration" in about the same spread or pattern that transfers the same, or even more, energy into the target than the 000 Buckshot Shell.
This Webpage provides some very useful insight into the matter of Shotguns and Good Tactical Loads for Home Defense: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
Excellent Impartial Home Defense Shotgun vs Pistol Analysis as well as In-Depth Load Analysis & Recommendations. It's only one page and well worth quick read. Don't forget to click on the Ammunition Preformance Data link in the article. It looks like you forgot to do this yourself or you would have found out that a 380 can be a very affective round. With the +P the nubmers come close to those of your standard 9mm. Again, with the fang face, the trauma caused by one 380 would be way more than that of a 9mm, maybe even than a shotgun, especially since it is still an affective round at 15 yards. More great data!
The current rounds I have for our 380 is Buffalo Bore's +P 90 grain. It is rated at 1200 fps with 288 ft. lbs of M.E. where your normal 9mm 115 grain is rated at 1145 fps with 335 ft. lbs of M.E., this is remingtons normal ammo. Look at the numbers, think about them, then give back accurate info if you can about your arguement against owning a 380. I figure when someone asks a question seriously about something like this, you give facts, not opinions. To anyone wanting to know about a 380, they are more than enough to get the job done. If you know how to shoot good enough, so is a 22 for that matter. I guess if you are not sure about your shooting skills, you might want to just get a double barrel and saw the end off load one side with shot and the other with a slug and hope for the best. Personally, I believe if you are going to own a gun, you should practice with it and get good at using it, otherwise you just have a hunk of metal that makes a lot of noise, that goes with a shotgun also. Those can miss too, even from a few feet away.
Lex_Luthor
02-02-2011, 11:52
I filed my tax return today, $590 federal and $139 state.[Weight]
My fiance and I are going to go on an anniversary date to the shooting range and rent a couple guns, if they have a PK380 I'll rent one, that'll be for her, and might be an eventual purchase. I'm also going to rent an XD 9mm (SC if they have one available). I'm really starting to like the XD 9 subcompact. I'll probably keep my eye out for a used one, to keep cost down a little, rather than buying brand new. So you guys might see a wanted ad from me soon. :D
patrick0685
02-02-2011, 11:55
a few weeks ago the north Gander had a xd9 sc for 400
Lex_Luthor
02-02-2011, 13:16
[Faint]Loveland? I hope I can find one at that price in about 2 weeks!! Brand new?
EDIT: doh! The internet > me. Thornton is the north store. That's 5 minutes from where I live. I'll have to bounce back and forth between there, Sportsman's, local gun stores and pawn shops and see what turns out. I'll probably be posting a wanted ad soon too.
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