Razor HD

[Dinosdeuce]

Anyone have a Vortex Razor HD??? I would like to see one in person and have not been able to look through one but am intrigued.

Thanks
Dino

[tmckay2]

ive seen the pst's and they are SICK. you will never find a better optic for the money, or with such a great warranty. i have a regular viper and am getting a pst when they come out. i haven't seen the razor but ive read a lot of reviews from reputable people who say it will compete with anything else on the market. that being said, having looked through nightforces and us optics, i really don't get the price jump (from, say, a $700 pst to a $2000 razor, or other comparable optic). the glass is a little better, and maybe they have a feature or two, but thats a HUGE price jump for what i believe to be a small improvement. its only my opinion, but id try checking out a pst first unless you KNOW you want the razor.

i have dealt with vortex numerous times and their customer service is top notch. i recommend them to absolutely everyone, couldn't be happier. even the viper (which is a middle of the road optic price wise) has seemed to me just as good as any leupold i have ever used or looked through.

[Dinosdeuce]

tmckay2,

Thanks for the reply. I too am wanting to check out the PST's when they get them squared away. I know of another person waiting on one as well.

That is a big a price jump no doubt. I can't say the price jump is proportional, but what you are paying for is quality in the internals with repeatability and the optics at the higher magnifications. If you are paying almost $200 to shoot a match and have traveled 4-6 hours, the last thing you want is the scope to let go. If you are dialing evelvation for every shot you want to know it is not your scope when there are repeated misses. Don't know if you can say that about the middle of the road scopes. Now, the top scopes have broken too, but you don't hear about them very often.
Time will tell if the PST's will hold up. I hope they will as I would buy one in FFP.

As far as the Razor I have read probably the same reviews as you and they are really good reviews. The only thing I am on the bubble about is the eye relief and tight eye box. I just want to check it out in person first before I make a decision of spending that kind of money on an optic.

Thanks again for your input.

Dino

[tmckay2]

i suppose, about the breaking issue and have repeatability issues, but really at least with vortex's lines, ive never heard of quality being an issue, besides it can always be replaced for free. but like i said, if you have the money i guess why not get the razor. im still in school so its an impossibility.

the other thing i look at to some degree is that military snipes often don't use insane optics and are still very good marksmen. sure, they have more training, but im just saying that you often don't need crazy good scopes, just reliable ones that are consistent and that you are comfortable with. heck, id get a razor if i could, i just don't want you to waste money simply because its "top of the line". but ive never even seen one in person so what do i know? haha

lastly, i emailed vortex a week or so ago and they said they are planning on shipping the pst's to dealers by the end of december. of course there are lots of backorders and what not, so they probably won't be readily available til around february. as far as the razor goes, i am sort of curious if it would be possible to have a place like basspro order one in for you to check out. they sell other vortex scopes so it might be possible. also, go to vortex's site and look for "where to find products" and there is a place in denver that is going to supply pst's and stuff, maybe they have a razor. have you checked any of the gun shows? somebody has to have one around here

[k2peaker]

On Razor HD:
I don't have one but have looked through the 1-4x on a range when Scott from Vortex was at the RockyMtn 3-gun match. It was a solid, well made scope. Comparable to my 1.5-6x USO scope. As good as the Swaro Z or S&B ShortDot optically? Not quite.

I've looked at the higher mag Razor's at Shot last year. Under the indoor conditions, they also looked quite good. As they are in the "second tier" class with NF & lesser config'd USOs, my take is they are on par with these scopes for sure. Having met a couple Vortex folks, they definitely take CS very seriously (as does USO in my experience).

And, I agree with your enthusiasm for the PSTs. I think they will be a category killer. The right feature set (FFP, Mil/Mil) with decent optics.
We'll see.

On the diminishing returns of optics quality: I run PremierReticles for my LR rigs. And, have quite a bit of experience with S&Bs. The first tier of optics are definitely worth their $2.5K-$3K+ price tags. From what I've seen in addition to PR & S&B, Zeiss/Hensoldt & March are probably in that class. But, it's hard to convince someone that hasn't used this class of optic that they are worth the $$. Are there good shooters using less expensive scopes and competing/serving well? Sure. But, if you look at most of what is high on the leaderboard at most matches, you see mostly the first and second tier brands.

Military uses: imo, optics technology adoption usually lags what the competitive sports folks are using. For example, look how long IPSC/3-gun users were using red dots and optics before the mil adopted (on the AR platform in particular). Granted, it takes time, requires a higher standard of reliability, the procurement juggernaught, etc. We are now seeing the elite sniper units getting there with PR and the USMC contract, S&Bs on top of others, etc. And also look to other countries' sniper units -- S&Bs mounted on Accuracy International AWs...

[970TJ]

I can't comment on their scopes, but I can on their bino's. My dad bought a pair about 4 months ago, and I'm very impressed. I have a pair of Leopould Cascades, which are in about the same price range and I notice quite a difference in sharpness and clarity. I'm going to be looking into their scopes as well for a few different rifles so I'm subscribed.

[k2peaker]

Hey guys,
Another thought that I had on this topic.

Trying out a scope. I'm like you in that I want to put my hands on a scope and look through it before buying. Getting some idea of the FOV, brightness, whether I like the reticle, the tactile feel of the turrets, etc.
But, in my experience, there's no substitute for having it mounted on a rifle and being in the field. That's where the higher quality of the glass really shines (like I think you'll find on the Razor). I guess no substitute for real world use; lying on your belly (get off the bench!), target location, sun beaming down, mirage, the whole 9 yards...

Tough to demo scopes in a shop to this level (or, worse yet, at SHOT show). That's why at competitions when we're not up, often times we spend time behind buddies scopes getting a sense of the benes & differences.
For example, Hoser's P_dog match in Pueblo. You'll see a wide range of equipment. I don't know of anyone running a Razor right now but I'll keep an eye out. The PSTs will start showing up quickly given that price point. What a great scope to put on a $800-$900 Rem 700 or a Savage or a...

[DocMedic]

I'll be running a razor HD 1-4 this season for 3gun, I was kinda on the fence on one since I really wanted the new S&B 1-8Shortdot, which I might still get... But I got a deal on a "slightly" used one. the only thing I do not like about the scope is, even at is brightest setting it barely stands out during a bright day. Other then that I really loving the no bs warrenty and the 55grain BDC is pretty close to my load.

[k2peaker]

Looking at the SHOT samples of the 1-8x ShortDot and the 1-8x Premier, those really may be category gold standards. I still wonder how much of a market in 3-gun given the price point though. Funny that both were announced at SHOT 2010 and both are not to production yet.

Daytime Illumination:
I hear ya on that one. I've resigned myself to the fact that most of the tactically oriented scope companies just don't understand what it is that we want. They can't help but think of illumination for night/low light situations only and can't get their minds wrapped around us 3-gunners running around in bright western sun, wanting bright red (or green) illumination in the middle of the day. I don't know, maybe it is a more difficult design trade off than I realize. FWIW, I have the same problem with my USO. I've just learned to lower my expectations and get used to a black reticle. On some of the shaded, low contrast targets I'll usually turn it on and it occasionally helps.

By the way, the early reviews that I've been reading on the Viper PSTs on SnipersHide sound encouraging. May be a category killer. Go Vortex!

[tmckay2]

heres what happens: if you go for bright illumination that clearly shows during the day, you generally get a little bit of fuzziness from the bright illumination which messes with the shooter's eyes. the goal is to use as little illumination as possible to keep the lines sharp, but to also provide the ability to shoot in low light situations. its not a design flaw or anything, its the physics of illumination. you simply can't make something that bright and not have the fuzziness factor play a role on the lines. this is why the cheap scopes like ncstar and stuff have very bright illumination settings and also crappy glass and reticles.


Looking at the SHOT samples of the 1-8x ShortDot and the 1-8x Premier, those really may be category gold standards. I still wonder how much of a market in 3-gun given the price point though. Funny that both were announced at SHOT 2010 and both are not to production yet.

Daytime Illumination:
I hear ya on that one. I've resigned myself to the fact that most of the tactically oriented scope companies just don't understand what it is that we want. They can't help but think of illumination for night/low light situations only and can't get their minds wrapped around us 3-gunners running around in bright western sun, wanting bright red (or green) illumination in the middle of the day. I don't know, maybe it is a more difficult design trade off than I realize. FWIW, I have the same problem with my USO. I've just learned to lower my expectations and get used to a black reticle. On some of the shaded, low contrast targets I'll usually turn it on and it occasionally helps.

By the way, the early reviews that I've been reading on the Viper PSTs on SnipersHide sound encouraging. May be a category killer. Go Vortex!

[Hoser]

you simply can't make something that bright and not have the fuzziness factor play a role on the lines.

Never looked through a S&B Short Dot have you?

[tmckay2]

Never looked through a S&B Short Dot have you?

are you really trying to compare a short dot reticle and magification (as well as illumination) to a razor? its like comparing apples to oranges.

on that note, yes i have looked through one. a buddy has one. i really don't see what you are getting at besides the fact that it has nice glass.

[Hoser]

are you really trying to compare a short dot reticle and magification (as well as illumination) to a razor? its like comparing apples to oranges.

I was just addressing your post above where you said "you simply can't make something that bright and not have the fuzziness factor play a role on the lines."

The daylight visible dot is clear and sharp in that scope.

The Razor is an excellent quality scope. If it had the dot quality of a Short Dot I would dump both my S&B Short Dots tomorrow.

[tmckay2]

I was just addressing your post above where you said "you simply can't make something that bright and not have the fuzziness factor play a role on the lines."

The daylight visible dot is clear and sharp in that scope.

The Razor is an excellent quality scope. If it had the dot quality of a Short Dot I would dump both my S&B Short Dots tomorrow.


right but its a dot. thats a completely different issue. fuzziness is a lot harder to see on a dot than on a complete reticle with graduations.

[tmckay2]

well ill have my pst in a day or so. ill let you know the preliminary report

[daddygat]

Had my AR at the Gunsmith for a month to get some work on a scope problem, well needless to say after being told it would be ready in 2 weeks , I gave him an additional two weeks to see what he could do for me.

One month to the day from when I dropped it off, went in to see where we were and he had not looked at it at all.

So back to the drawing board.

I came across a Colt 3x21 with the bullet drop compensator. What caught my eye in the ad was the reference to the fact that it was made in Japan.

Japanese optics can be good if I was looking for a camera, but this is a different rodeo.

Can anyone give me first hand feedback on this particular scope, saw it advertised on the GUNSAMERICA site for about $400.00

QUESTIONS:

Is that a reasonable price?

Does the Made in Japan reference cause any reason for concern for this type item?

Does Colt farm out mfg on this item overseas?? Or is this possibly some Gray market knock off.

Anyone on the site with this current set up on their AR would be really a good source of first hand feedback, pros V. con of their experience with the scope.

Will not be using for any thing beyond 200 yards.

Thanks In Advance

[tmckay2]

japan pretty much makes the best scopes, with a few exceptions. that doesn't mean they don't make bad ones too though

[banks74]

japan pretty much makes the best scopes, with a few exceptions. that doesn't mean they don't make bad ones too though

Not so sure I buy into that.