View Full Version : Killed over a water nozzle?
Scanker19
12-13-2010, 23:43
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_water_nozzle_shooting
Sounds fishy.
It seems to me if they had time to observe him they could have determined that it wasn't a gun.
theGinsue
12-14-2010, 00:05
I normally don't try to second guess an LEO's actions in most situations like this simply because I wasn't faced with the situation and they were, but...
Something here isn't right. If the information in the article is accurate, I think the officers missed an opportunity to end this without the use of lethal force.
Whether he was holding the spray nozzle like a gun or not, if no one was clearly as risk of being shot, I don't understand why the officers in this case didn't try to make some contact with this man before firing upon him. No commands to "drop the weapon", anything.
Like I said before, something isn't right here. It reminds me of Kansas City, KS back in the early '80's. Their PD was notorious for "Stop, or I'll <boom> <boom> shoot!"
Another entry for "Good Idea, Bad Idea"
Its a tragedy for everyone involved. While there are cops who may not care about shooting people, even when it is necessary, I haven't met them. Once the first round is fired, the other officer(s) will almost always fire. Its almost impossible to determine exactly who is shooting when that first round goes off, and most people naturally conclude that they are the intended target, so they immediately return fire.
Six rounds from a 12 or 15 round magazine means that if only one officer fired his handgun, he wasn't firing randomly. If there were two officers who fired their pistols, that displays even more discipline. The shotgun going off close by just adds to the complexity of what must have gone through the officers minds in a second to a second and a half.
Just a bad day all around for everyone involved.
Byte Stryke
12-14-2010, 00:35
Something smells like Shit on a Durian with that.
even if opportunity was not there for a forward contact, they could have done an L Contact covering him from the rear and contacting him from a side.
not to mention... So what if someone is sitting on their back stoop with a handgun. unless I am missing something, its not illegal.
Exactly what warranted the entry?
"911, what is the nature of your emergency?"
"I am alarmed, there is a family having a picnic next door and the Man has a Spatula!"
"Stay in your Home, we are dispatching Sharpshooters and SWAT to your Location."
/sarcasm
Police are allowed to do basically anything they want to make themselves feel "safe"
not trying to bash cops, just stating a fact.
2ndChildhood
12-14-2010, 07:20
I guess I'd better stop hanging out in neighborhoods where I'm unfamiliar and fooling around with gun-shaped objects.
Bitter Clinger
12-14-2010, 07:59
Those cops fucked up. Period. Sounds like the nosy fuckin neighbors can sleep better at night too.
KevDen2005
12-14-2010, 08:12
Those cops fucked up. Period. Sounds like the nosy fuckin neighbors can sleep better at night too.
So you were there? Just curious as to how you know exactly what happened?
Holy crap! So you mean to tell me that we're being over run by a bunch of blood-thirsty JBT's with a pass to kill in their back pocket????
Give me a fucking break dude, I know there a few crap sticks out there with badges but the thought that the majority of cops are out to get a kill fix is outright ludicrous. Given the fact that the info is from a reporter I'm positive the article isn't 100% accurate but when a cop shows up to a "man with a gun" call, he can only hope to come out alive; survival - it's a human instinct. Bad calls were made on both ends that's for sure and it's a damn shame that it costed a life.
Holy crap! So you mean to tell me that we're being over run by a bunch of blood-thirsty JBT's with a pass to kill in their back pocket????
go to youtube and search "largest street gang in america".
six part video.
KevDen2005
12-14-2010, 08:34
Yeah I have seen it...it is completely factual too
alan0269
12-14-2010, 08:40
I'm not defending what happened (as we don't know fully all the details about time between actions taken by the parties involved), but it sounds to me like they had a split second to react to what they perceived to be a deadly threat to them. They were called to a scene where they believed someone had a small handgun; when they arrived, the man used a two handed hold on the object and pointed it at one of the officers, at which time the officers fired at him. I'm sorry, but common sense tells me that you don't touch a red hot piece of iron, punch a wild grizzly in the face, or point anything that could be perceived as a weapon at someone that has a real weapon aka a police officer. As far as not telling the man to "drop the weapon", etc - they apparently didn't think they had time to do so as they perceived they had an immediate threat to an officer's life. I don't personally believe that a police officer should have to be shot at before they can fire at someone - again, COMMON F***ING SENSE tells you not to point anything at an officer that they could perceive as a threat to their life or the life of someone else! If he was so innocent, why wouldn't he have put the object down and told the police "I only have a spray nozzle for a hose"? There are just some things in life you don't joke about!!!
"As the subject was in a seated position, he used a two-handed pistol-grip hold on an object with his arms fully extended," Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said. "Somebody that is impaired and waving what appears to witnesses and police to be a handgun. That's what the officers were faced with."
go to youtube and search "largest street gang in america".
six part video.
I'll check that out.
I have quite a few family and friends in law enforcement and far as I can tell, killing a man is the one of the last things on their mind next to dying.
Scanker19
12-14-2010, 08:59
I'm not defending what happened (as we don't know fully all the details about time between actions taken by the parties involved), but it sounds to me like they had a split second to react to what they perceived to be a deadly threat to them. They were called to a scene where they believed someone had a small handgun; when they arrived, the man used a two handed hold on the object and pointed it at one of the officers, at which time the officers fired at him. I'm sorry, but common sense tells me that you don't touch a red hot piece of iron, punch a wild grizzly in the face, or point anything that could be perceived as a weapon at someone that has a real weapon aka a police officer. As far as not telling the man to "drop the weapon", etc - they apparently didn't think they had time to do so as they perceived they had an immediate threat to an officer's life. I don't personally believe that a police officer should have to be shot at before they can fire at someone - again, COMMON F***ING SENSE tells you not to point anything at an officer that they could perceive as a threat to their life or the life of someone else! If he was so innocent, why wouldn't he have put the object down and told the police "I only have a spray nozzle for a hose"? There are just some things in life you don't joke about!!!
"As the subject was in a seated position, he used a two-handed pistol-grip hold on an object with his arms fully extended," Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said. "Somebody that is impaired and waving what appears to witnesses and police to be a handgun. That's what the officers were faced with."
If that was the case then I would support the cops, but it sounded like they had time to asses. The article said they had observed him, for what sounded like more than a split second.
Now that lady in that police video who pointed a phone at them, yes, cap her ass.
I sometimes wonder about the UK police firearms policy. Most street cops with non-lethals, really really great non-lethals, and teams of dudes armed to the teeth patrolling around in vans, not acting as street cops but making sure everyone knows the PD still have big teeth. Maybe street cops still have guns, just in the trunk or in a cross draw but their non-lethals as primary.
I don't think the police are bad, I do realize however, that one cop killing one innocent person makes it harder on every single cop as people don't trust the police. I really don't know of anyone who fully trusts the police, several police included. There are just too many stories of SWAT busting down the wrong door, and killing the wrong guy. Frankly as a law abbdiding person not involved in any gang/drug activity in an apartment, that's probably my most likely lethal-level-threat home invasion threat. I know every cop isn't out to take people down and use their firearm, but all it takes as a few and suddenly they all are suspect. Right or wrong when I get pulled over I don't see "officer X" is see a blue shirt and a badge.
Bitter Clinger
12-14-2010, 09:45
So you were there? Just curious as to how you know exactly what happened?
No. I was not there, reading the small article it does say the police observed him. Why did they not wait for backup? I don't know. I am not a cop.
But it seems to me a Guy who was guilty of trying to not drink and drive lost his life for doing the right thing.
The article also states that neighbors called 911 stating they seen a Guy sitting on some steps with a gun. Ok SO FUCKING WHAT? I oftentimes am walking around my backyard and garage with drills, water nozzles, hell sometimes I even have a watergun. Should I expect to be gunned down?
IF we are getting the full story then yes the cops fucked up. But with stories like this we rarely get the full story.
Byte Stryke
12-14-2010, 12:24
I am not saying all cops are bad.
I am not saying that we have the whole story or not.
I'm just saying that the story sounds a lot like my kid coming home and telling me he was suspended from school "Because" or "For no reason."
there's more to to this and it already stinks of someone fucking something up somewhere.
So the poor bastard didn't even know the cops were there? He's just drunk, sitting on the stoop playing with a hose nozzle like it was a pistol, and making "pew, pew, pew" noises? Good thing I don't drink, I've been known to "pew" at birds, squirrels and pasture rats with a finger pistol.
The incident sounds like "suicide by cop" to me. The poor fellow did not have the guts to do himself in, as is with a majority of suicide attempts. So he let the cops do it.
The incident sounds like "suicide by cop" to me. The poor fellow did not have the guts to do himself in, as is with a majority of suicide attempts. So he let the cops do it.
This could be true, but theres also the fact that he was a "drunk" (see the last sentence of the news article).
Moral of the story. Always keep hoses connected to water nozzles and drink safely.
Byte Stryke
12-14-2010, 16:26
The incident sounds like "suicide by cop" to me. The poor fellow did not have the guts to do himself in, as is with a majority of suicide attempts. So he let the cops do it.
PD Never made command or contact.
He didn't even know they were there.
The article is unclear with who/where the man was pointing the hose nozzle at. If he pointed it AT the police, the police don't need to say anything for him to know that they were there, he was looking at them. I can't make it out based on the article though; so I can't really make an opinion either way.
OneGuy67
12-14-2010, 22:27
Here is a photo of the nozzle....
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz210/bluebouyz/LBPD-waternozzel-3.jpg
Pretty soon all the hose nozzles in California will be required to be painted bright orange.
Would it be in extremely bad taste to paint my range gun safety orange?
it is in california. I am guessing the guy was mentally fucked up from living in that forsaken state and probably was on drugs as well.
I don't know what people are all worked up about. last time I read any cali related threads most people want it to fall in the ocean.
OneGuy67
12-15-2010, 10:51
it is in california. I am guessing the guy was mentally fucked up from living in that forsaken state and probably was on drugs as well.
I don't know what people are all worked up about. last time I read any cali related threads most people want it to fall in the ocean.
Still want it to fall into the ocean and I want it to take all the liberal Californians with it, to include those who moved here in the past two decades.
One time, I had a police officer go for his gun, just because I had a beer can in my hand in a darkened room, with a ceiling lamp lit up behind me. The open beer can was being held waist high, and not pointed at the two officer's. He had a startled look on his face, then he put his hand on the pistol when he saw me come around the corner hallway, but he did not draw it out of his holster. I was unaware of there presence, until I turned around that corner.
[Beer]
Erno
Here is a photo of the nozzle....
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz210/bluebouyz/LBPD-waternozzel-3.jpg
I betcha John Dillinger would have loved to have that water nozzle, instead of that wooden pistol; that he used to break out of prison with.
Though I am a bit apprehensive, especially when I dry fire my 1911 in my living room every day; with only the screen front door locked. But the door is connected to the living room. When it's warm outside, I just use the screen door.
No, I have'nt shot out my TV set yet!
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