you guys see this shooting? i guess only the shooter was killed [Archive] - Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums

68Charger

12-15-2010, 00:10

Yeah, when I heard about this on the radio, they just said that a guy pulled a gun at a school board meeting and shot himself. I didn't realize that he actually tried to shoot the people sitting up there.

looking at the video, it's debatable that he tried to shoot them- but that was the impression he was trying for... I know I wouldn't miss at that range- he had plenty of time to aim.

This looked like SBC, pure and simple... a case were Less-than-lethal alternatives would be a better outcome- take him out with a Taser or the like- and get him some help.

At the very least, he got his wish- however bad that wish was.
This is an example of somebody that is mentally ill that has a gun.

68Charger

12-15-2010, 00:12

Why a V? Why?

it's from V for Vendetta, he was trying to re-play the ending sequence, possibly... deranged individual.

DeusExMachina

12-15-2010, 00:12

He ended up shooting himself, so I don't think anything could have been done.

Edit: I know what its from, it just doesn't make any sense.

68Charger

12-15-2010, 00:24

He ended up shooting himself, so I don't think anything could have been done.

Edit: I know what its from, it just doesn't make any sense.

it doesn't make sense because you're not in the same mental state...

Not sure it would have wound up any different with any option, it's just sad that he died because he let evil take him over- that's my view...

Geardo

12-15-2010, 00:27

This looked like SBC, pure and simple... a case were Less-than-lethal alternatives would be a better outcome- take him out with a Taser or the like- and get him some help.
I totally agree that less than lethal is a viable option in this situation but what do you think the correct course of action would be for a civilian CC'ing in this room? What would you guys do? Shout Show Shove Shoot Shoot?

68Charger

12-15-2010, 00:37

I totally agree that less than lethal is a viable option in this situation but what do you think the correct course of action would be for a civilian CC'ing in this room? What would you guys do? Shout Show Shove Shoot Shoot?

Gun-free zone, AFAIK... which means civilians wouldn't be legally CC'ing in that room...

That aside, the best outcome would have been disarming the agressor... I think someone who is not armed would have had the best chance- anyone armed would have been perceived by him as the 'cop' that would enable his suicide.

That would require skills and bravery beyond the average person to perform.

Geardo

12-15-2010, 00:49

Whoops I honestly didn't even think about the gun-free zone, maybe its time for me to get some sleep. But yeah that would require some balls and some sweet krav maga.

Irving

12-15-2010, 01:01

What is the V you guys are talking about?

By the way, all joking aside, I found that video terrifying. I need to get back to competitions asap. I've missed at closer than that range at my very first match. I figured I was so close that I could just point and shoot. I was wrong.

Geardo

12-15-2010, 01:08

The red "V" on the wall. The video didn't really show it happening but I believe the gunman painted it prior to pulling the gun.

ChunkyMonkey

12-15-2010, 01:09

Gun Free Zone at its finest!

Jer

12-15-2010, 01:37

I watched the video and this is yet another example of why I carry EVERYWHERE. I jump through whatever hoops that are available to me to do so legally but that doesn't mean if there's a 'no gun zone' I don't carry. I don't condone it but at the same time I'll be damned if I'm going to be reduced to begging for my life to a deranged person who is going to kill himself anyway. He doesn't care about the repercussions of his actions so who's to say he wouldn't shoot you and everyone else there? Just think of the wives, mothers and kids of those men on that board had the guy come in with the intention and ability to kill. They'll all go home because of one thing... luck. I value my life WAY to much to gamble with it and trust it to chance. If I go out, I'm going out with a fight.

sniper7

12-15-2010, 01:59

at least the right guy died at the end of the day. needlessly, but that seems to be what he wanted.

very noble of the guy that signed the papers to try and get the others free.

gun free schools, gun free school boards, all failed logic. This guy should have been dropped from the instant the gun was presented. they are all just lucky he was too drunk to hit anything.

Gunner

12-15-2010, 02:02

Wow that's crazy

lead_magnet

12-15-2010, 03:48

Some verbal judo on the part of the pannel could have helped some it seemed. They guy in red (HORRIBLE suit by the way) was doing a good job of keeping him calm, the head hancho was arguing with him, lucky that didn't cost him his life.

I'm +1 for carrying in "no gun" zones. Yep, I said it. I carry a gun in places where it is illegal to do so. If a cop happens to decide to come pat me down and I get thrown in jail, so be it, I don't go unarmed ANYWHERE. I'm not condoning it either, that's a decision everyone has to make for themselfs. Are you willing to risk a criminal charge? Are you willing to risk being in a shooting with no weapon? I've personally been stoped by police where I have been carring illegally or in an illegal fashion (carried concealed without a permit for a LOOOONG time). This has happened to me twice in my life, and both times I was blessed to be faced by a compitent police officer who was able to tell a good guy who couldn't afford a permit, and sent me on my way with my gun. One even gave me a ride (car broke down, in california no less, and the Cali highway patrol gave me and my pistol a ride even though he said I was "carring a concealed and loaded weapon" illegaly.)

Anywho, sorry for getting off track (drinking a little tonight), if I was a panel member I vote for run the hell out of there and make him hit a very skinny moving target, the others can either follow my lead or sit there and get shot at, not my problem.

Bailey Guns

12-15-2010, 05:49

That is NOT a situation for the application of less lethal. You have no idea if that guy was actually trying to shoot/kill the hostages or not. There is no way to judge his intentions just because he's missing. No to mention the fact that, if I didn't know the outcome I would've thought several of those people were hit based on their reactions...especially the first guy that grabs the left side of his chest/arm. Looked like the guy was trying to hit people to me. As soon as he raised his arm just prior to firing I'd say would be the time to start ventilating him.

Frankly, he didn't look that well trained in gun handling/shooting to me based on the way he carried the gun, little muzzle discipline (not that he was really worried about that...but it does speak to training), the way the gun recoiled after he fired, etc...so it doesn't surprise me that he didn't hit anyone.

There is zero chance that a cop is going to wait for him to fire a couple of rounds and say, "Oh...he isn't hitting anyone. Let's whack him with a Taser (or beanbag, or whatever)." Zero chance.

Whoever shot him from behind (or wherever they were) did exactly what he should have done...fire on the guy until he was no longer a threat. When he fired on the last guy on the left it sure as hell looked to me like he was trying to hit him. Personally I think his shooting skills just sucked.

If you look how he reacted after being shot with the first round or two, that really seemed to strengthen his determination to shoot people. He probably wouldn't have reacted any differently had he been whacked with a bean bag. I can't tell how far away the officer that fired was but it appears to be too far for a Taser shot.

No...bubba needed killin'...right then and there.

Elhuero

12-15-2010, 08:02

gun free zone is right, those sheep on the school board are extremely lucky.

they were completely at his mercy and if he had been determined to kill them they would be dead.

68Charger

12-15-2010, 09:11

Bailey, I wasn't suggesting that they tase him after he started shooting- at that point they were out of options.

I'm just saying that the lady with the purse had another course of action- just the wrong tool... someone bigger & better trained could have disarmed him at that time- and that would have been the best outcome, but it also could have lead to something much worse... risky

Even shooting the "maniac with the gun" is dangerous, he could get some shots off before he goes down.

I've been wondering why I have any desire to save his life- I think it's because he WANTED somebody to shoot him... so I wanted to deny him that.

TriggerHappy

12-15-2010, 09:42

Gun free schools, gun free school boards, all failed logic. This guy should have been dropped from the instant the gun was presented.

+1. Bust em!!!! Why wait for the gunman to have an opportunity. He lost all of his outs the moment he pulled the gun and pointed it at anyone.

GhostRider

12-15-2010, 09:50

I agree with Bailey 100% couldn't have said any better, this guy determined the outcome before he went in.

ghettodub

12-15-2010, 10:09

Crazy stuff, and like it was said before, I can't believe how calm everyone was. That's nuts.

Another reason as also stated on why I carry everywhere I can. I think that lady was a moron too. I commend her for trying something, but that was just stupid.

ruthabagah

12-15-2010, 10:29

The real hero here is Ginger Littleton. I quote " so I could either walk away and try to live with myself because I knew something bad was going to happen, or I could try to defend, delay, somehow or other divert hoping that the cavalry would come soon.... My guys had three-rings binders and pencils to protect themselves, so I whacked him with the purse, hoping I could get him to drop the gun. Obviously that didn't work... I did not have a plan B"

This lady is the real hero.

OneGuy67

12-15-2010, 11:27

looking at the video, it's debatable that he tried to shoot them- but that was the impression he was trying for... I know I wouldn't miss at that range- he had plenty of time to aim.

This looked like SBC, pure and simple... a case were Less-than-lethal alternatives would be a better outcome- take him out with a Taser or the like- and get him some help.

At the very least, he got his wish- however bad that wish was.
This is an example of somebody that is mentally ill that has a gun.

The suspect has shown a propensity to use his firearm, deadly force, and you want the officers to respond with a lesser force against him? This particular person is what we refer to as an Emotionally Disturbed Person (EDP) and he mentions over and over "I'm gonna die" and "I'm gonna die tonight" and knows the cops are coming. He is calm and set in his decision. He escalated it to a deadly force confrontation by firing his weapon in the general direction of the hostages. There is no cop around who is going to bring less lethal options to bear in this situation. Too many people who could get hurt.

Byte Stryke

12-15-2010, 11:37

The suspect has shown a propensity to use his firearm, deadly force, and you want the officers to respond with a lesser force against him? This particular person is what we refer to as an Emotionally Disturbed Person (EDP) and he mentions over and over "I'm gonna die" and "I'm gonna die tonight" and knows the cops are coming. He is calm and set in his decision. He escalated it to a deadly force confrontation by firing his weapon in the general direction of the hostages. There is no cop around who is going to bring less lethal options to bear in this situation. Too many people who could get hurt.

dammit...
You know its going to be a bad day when I agree with OneGuy67.

:D

ChunkyMonkey

12-15-2010, 11:37

I've been wondering why I have any desire to save his life- I think it's because he WANTED somebody to shoot him... so I wanted to deny him that.

That's just because you have seen the outcome of the event - Noone else got hurt. Could you honestly say the same if you were there as the event developing? To me, decision point was the moment he was waving around that gun and told everyone to get out.

68Charger

12-15-2010, 11:56

That's just because you have seen the outcome of the event - Noone else got hurt. Could you honestly say the same if you were there as the event developing? To me, decision point was the moment he was waving around that gun and told everyone to get out.

I agree- I'm playing armchair commando

The suspect has shown a propensity to use his firearm, deadly force, and you want the officers to respond with a lesser force against him? This particular person is what we refer to as an Emotionally Disturbed Person (EDP) and he mentions over and over "I'm gonna die" and "I'm gonna die tonight" and knows the cops are coming. He is calm and set in his decision. He escalated it to a deadly force confrontation by firing his weapon in the general direction of the hostages. There is no cop around who is going to bring less lethal options to bear in this situation. Too many people who could get hurt.

please see my later post clarifying that once he fired, then deadly force was the only course left- before he was pointing the gun at anyone, LTL >could< have been an option... I'm not a cop, and I was thinking it's a gun-free zone...

I agree once he POINTED the gun at the hostages, deadly force was required... when he had his guard down, and the gun at his side, disarming him could have been an option.

and to re-iterate a previous post of mine- for some reason, I didn't want to see him shot- possibly because he wanted it... and Suicide is cowardly, SBC is particularly abhorrent.

tmckay2

12-15-2010, 12:27

i like how he shoots the floor on accident after the first shot and almost blows his foot off. i don't think the guy had any idea what he was doing.

one of my friends who used to live in texas said it would have been funny to see him pull this stunt there, you would have heard about 10 hammers click back right when he pulled his gun out

68Charger

12-15-2010, 12:31

reviewing the video again, it's hard to tell for certain when the police/ armed security arrived... but it's probably either just before or just after the 1st shot was fired.

By the time they arrived, there was no other choice but deadly force.

I'm not sure that an armed civilian in the room would have changed the outcome, but the shots on the board members could have been prevented.

I was reacting out of emotion that I wanted to deny him SBC- once he decided that was going to be his fate, cowardly or not- it was most likely going to end that way.

2008f450

12-15-2010, 14:07

Yet another reason why I carry everywhere all the time. I see that video and see why I prctice my draw from concealment and practice getting 2 well placed shots off as quickly and accuarately as possible. I showed my wife the video and explained to her this is why I carry. Its like wearing a seatbelt. I pray I never need it but wear it just in case.

SA Friday

12-15-2010, 14:59

This was a deadly force scenario as soon as he said he was going to die that night, long before the first shot was fired.

Dear Ginger, bad things happen to good people every day. Next time think it through a little. Very bad move IMO. Get everyone possible out and away from the threat. Instigating violence while armed with a purse with a 260+ lb man armed with a pistol is foolhardy.

The guy talking to him was stalling for time hoping for that armed guard, I bet. He focused the anger toward him and him alone, lessening the threat to others and he stalled for time for assistance to get there. He's the hero. He's the reason the shooting didn't start sooner.

It appears this school's gun free zone force-field seems to have failed. [Bang]

BigBear

12-15-2010, 15:00

It appears this school's gun free zone force-field seems to have failed. [Bang]

No way man! It worked as advertised! No one had a gun to defend themselves!!! [ROFL1][Beer]

[Mad][Rant1][Bang]

ERNO

12-15-2010, 16:30

When that brave woman tried to disarm the shooter, I believe that he was distracted enough for all the board member's to charge him at once.
It seemed like the board members believed that they could talk him out of it. When the shooter raised his gun, I definitly would have made myself a moving target, or just hid under the table, at least.
When he raised his pistol, he did the fishing method, which is a sign of inexperience. That was some of the worst pistol shooting that I have ever seen!
The question is: Did he intentionaly miss the board member's, with just "suicide by cop" on his mind? When he found out that he was just wounded, he finished his lowly piece of trash himself.

DeusExMachina

12-15-2010, 16:31

What do you mean by "fishing method"?

ERNO

12-15-2010, 16:38

What do you mean by "fishing method"?

You raise the pistol like you're casting a fishing rod, instead of just jutting the pistol straight out to eye level with the sight's, which saves precious milliseconds before the shot.

Erno

OneGuy67

12-15-2010, 16:38

Drunk, angry, nerves shot, 7 yards, and people moving? I bet you would miss.

If he wasn't trying to shoot them he would have fired into the air or something. You don't try to scare someone by shooting directly at them.

Not sure he was drunk; he didn't exhibit what you'd normally see. Slurred speech, swaying, etc. He was calm, especially seen in the enhance videos shown on other programs and had clear speech. He wasn't swaying or having difficulty in walking over and above his obvious weight issue/sway.

As for the shooting, it is difficult to determine what he was doing. Was he firing over their heads or trying to purposefully miss them or was he a bad shot? He knew how this was going to end, but what was the outcome he was looking for from the board? An apology? To kill one or more of them? To embarrass them? To get his wifre re-hired (which as of today, there is no indication she even worked for the school board)?

As to the no-gun zone...where has anyone found information on that or are you just making an assumption? Most school boards aren't held on school grounds if they have a council room like what is shown. I'm going to guess they were at school district office somewhere, which may or may not be part of or attached to, an actual school.

Elhuero

12-15-2010, 16:44

the woman who hit the guy with her bag gets ten points for guts but -12 points to the rest of the sheep.

she got the drop on him and if others had acted he could have been stopped.

gnihcraes

12-15-2010, 16:49

Some people need training on how to fight with purses and pencils. She tried, and it could have worked if done properly. Everyone should practice every day fighting with random objects. My opinion. Pencil, pen, letter opener, computer power cord, belt, purse strap, broom handle, pair of scissors, etc.

Glad everyone is ok in this situation.

cstone

12-16-2010, 13:15

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40701074/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

"I’m not a hero folks," Jones said, adding, "I wasn't in this building five minutes and I was in a gun fight. It happened that quick."

20 year veteran cop. His comments fit more of what I have experienced with cops after they have shot someone. I've never met a cop who was overjoyed they hurt or killed someone. If anything, some officers express relief (looks like happiness) they aren't hurt or someone else (bystander) is now safe.

I will admit, as I have before on this board, there are bad cops. For any auto mechanics or plumbers, I've met some of those who were bad as well. There are some in every group. [Coffee]

TFOGGER

12-16-2010, 13:47

Geology Rocks

12-16-2010, 14:20

Not sure he was drunk; he didn't exhibit what you'd normally see. Slurred speech, swaying, etc. He was calm, especially seen in the enhance videos shown on other programs and had clear speech. He wasn't swaying or having difficulty in walking over and above his obvious weight issue/sway.

As for the shooting, it is difficult to determine what he was doing. Was he firing over their heads or trying to purposefully miss them or was he a bad shot? He knew how this was going to end, but what was the outcome he was looking for from the board? An apology? To kill one or more of them? To embarrass them? To get his wifre re-hired (which as of today, there is no indication she even worked for the school board)?

As to the no-gun zone...where has anyone found information on that or are you just making an assumption? Most school boards aren't held on school grounds if they have a council room like what is shown. I'm going to guess they were at school district office somewhere, which may or may not be part of or attached to, an actual school.

even if its not at a school wouldnt a school board or meeting building like this be considered a Governmental building? last I heard you cant carry in a city or state gov. building right? Also you guys are missing the fact that he has a ND right after firing the first shot. He aims the gun at the guy he is talking too, then after he fires he points the gun to the ground where he pulls the trigger again shooting the floor.

joe

TFOGGER

12-16-2010, 14:41

even if its not at a school wouldnt a school board or meeting building like this be considered a Governmental building? last I heard you cant carry in a city or state gov. building right?

joe

Not sure about Florida law, but in CO, city and state buildings are only off limits if posted, with permanent security in place (metal detectors and personnel). Cities CAN post against open carry, but CCW holders are not included. School district owned buildings are considered "schools" under CO law, and are off limits.

http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16931

ERNO

12-16-2010, 14:42

Not sure he was drunk; he didn't exhibit what you'd normally see. Slurred speech, swaying, etc. He was calm, especially seen in the enhance videos shown on other programs and had clear speech. He wasn't swaying or having difficulty in walking over and above his obvious weight issue/sway.

As for the shooting, it is difficult to determine what he was doing. Was he firing over their heads or trying to purposefully miss them or was he a bad shot? He knew how this was going to end, but what was the outcome he was looking for from the board? An apology? To kill one or more of them? To embarrass them? To get his wifre re-hired (which as of today, there is no indication she even worked for the school board)?

As to the no-gun zone...where has anyone found information on that or are you just making an assumption? Most school boards aren't held on school grounds if they have a council room like what is shown. I'm going to guess they were at school district office somewhere, which may or may not be part of or attached to, an actual school.

My latest opinion, is that the shooter was purposely missing his victims.
Except for when he shot himself, in which I did not see that part.
My guess, is that the retired police officer had to wait for everybody to scatter for him to get an open clear shot.
Also, I noticed the shooter seemed to be looking at the camera for a moment. My other guess, is that he wanted it all to come down, while being video taped.
The "V" he painted on the wall, stood for that movie called the "VENDETTA," which I have not seen yet.

spyder

12-16-2010, 15:21

In a situation like that, there are a lot of variables to toss around to know for sure of what is going on. For someone to do that they are either crying for help, or, they mean what they say. If you know which is which, then you act accordingly of course. None of the people there knew what his true motives were and to make it worse, he was under the influence of something which changes everything all together. If you can see he is under the influence as a cop or security from behind, even if you had less lethal ways of trying to stop him (taser ect.) you wouldn't want to use it. When people are jacked up on things, those less lethal ways don't always work and you will just piss the person off, and in that case, a person with a gun. Your only option is deadly force. We are talking about the people in the video here, not any of us. I am positive that if it was a group of us in a room and some jack ass tried to pull a gun, it would have a very different outcome all together. My view is, the moment some idiot points a gun at someone for no reason, they gave up their right to live. If you wait to see if the person is a killer or not, you risk giving up an innocent life. It is just not worth it. I give props to the stupid lady who without any training disregarded her life to try to save others. That kind of heroism isn't seen much anymore.