View Full Version : Need Help: Checking/Cleaning Old Firearms...
Brother in law number 2 is coming into town and bringing two rifles he'd liked to get checked out (family pass downs). All he knows about them:
- a 1938 mousin nagant (7.62)
A. Not sure if it's in working condition
B. A few signs of rust, but no "pitting"
- hawken black powder (.50)
A. Knows the powder trigger and fire chute needs to be cleaned
He would like them to be inspected, fixed if need be, cleaned, checked for safe firing, etc... Who would I take them too and about how much might this run to get them in working condition? I know it's hard to quote without pics etc and I'll try to post some tonight, but in the meantime, guess away or things that I could look at, etc....
jreifsch80
12-28-2010, 16:45
What part of the state are you in? As for the mosin take it to the range to test it for firing condition ;)
I'm in the Springs. I would prefer to have the guns checked over before firing... I value my fingers and face, lol.
BPTactical
12-28-2010, 18:34
I'm in the Springs. I would prefer to have the guns checked over before firing... I value my fingers and face, lol.
Hickman Rifles
Hickman Rifles
Have any contact info or should I just google?
BPTactical
12-31-2010, 16:18
Have any contact info or should I just google?
Just Google them Bear- good bunch of guys.
Just Google them Bear- good bunch of guys.
Just got back from Hickman. Can say enough GOOD things about them! Close to my house, very knowledgable it seemed. Were willing to explain things over and over to me, etc.
Intersting things, they checked out the guns.
Seems like the Hawken .50 is in great shape, just needs a quick clean. It could stand to have the trigger replaced as the bar for the set trigger was slightly bent and it made the first trigger have like a 10lb pull. They don't know where to get the part except from the manufacturer and it's easy enough to install that I can do it and clean, etc. The gun is valued at over $600 apparently... wow.
The Mosion, likewise is in great shape. It just needs a little rub down with some cleaner and steel wool to take off some of the beginning rust. The grooves were in excellent condistion, trigger was fine, no blockages, etc. Interesting thing about this was is that it is NOT a conversion model. Apparently sometime in the early 1900's someone took all teh Nagants and chambered them in a losser .324 and stamped a big "S" on the recievers indicating this. This firearm does not bear that mark and the bore is measured at .318.
- So, can anyone dig up anymore info/background on this firearm?
- And apparently I have to look for specific .318 7mm ammo,.. can someone explain that, I didn't quite understand what the good fellow said and didn't want to ask for the 15th time to reexplain....
AND - they can thread my .308 with teh barrel still attached to teh reciever!!! I've been to umpteen number of shops that said they had to take off the reciever, but on the HOWA, the barrel is "stuck" in there tight.... and there was no reason to cut off a barrel that isn't completely shot yet.
So, Hickman Rifles, big +1 FTW from this guy.
The Mosin should be 7.62x54R caliber. Surplus ammo for it is plentiful and cheap. .318 on the bore is way too big, sure they measured it right?
Well, no cause I had no idea what they were doing. All I know for sure is that they said it was a pre-conversion Mosin (No "S" stamp on the reciever) and that I should only fire .318 ammo and not the "standard" .324.... it's not too hard to find but I'm supposed to make sure it's not "overloaded" (hot loads?)
Didn't make sense to me either.
Well, no cause I had no idea what they were doing. All I know for sure is that they said it was a pre-conversion Mosin (No "S" stamp on the reciever) and that I should only fire .318 ammo and not the "standard" .324.... it's not too hard to find but I'm supposed to make sure it's not "overloaded" (hot loads?)
Didn't make sense to me either.
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all. "Pre-conversion?" What conversion? Is GUN! Is meant for SHOOT GERMANS! [M9130]
lol, I'm not an old gun person. I'll have to go back and get stuff in writing to understand it all.
Apparently, way back some Mosins were taken and converted to a larger chamber and the reciever now bears a "S" stamp in the rollmark. Mine doesn't have this stamp...
However, I can find no mention of "mosin" and "S-stamp" in wikipedia or google....
and I look here: http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSerial.htm and see no "S" stamps on their proofings...
SA Friday
01-04-2011, 15:21
Some of the older Mosin's from WWI were captured and converted to various 8mm calibers. All Mosin's that were issued to troops shoot 7.62x54r cartridges. This is a slightly larger diameter bullet than the 308. Some Mosin's that has crappy accuracy or were shot out have had the first couple of inches of the crown bored out and made smooth. Some say these bored out guns have crappy accuracy, some say they work just fine... I say it depends on how well they bored out the crown as to if it's a lemon or a peach.
Use a 9mm bore brush if you clean it. A 308 brush is too small.
Don't expect amazing accuracy from it. Mosin's were made fast and cheap. With that said, some Mosin's are real shooters, but they are the exception in this case. Shooting them is cheap as there is ample 7.62x54r surplus ammo out there.
So, go shoot it.
Some of the older Mosin's from WWI were captured and converted to various 8mm calibers. All Mosin's that were issued to troops shoot 7.62x54r cartridges. This is a slightly larger diameter bullet than the 308. Some Mosin's that has crappy accuracy or were shot out have had the first couple of inches of the crown bored out and made smooth. Some say these bored out guns have crappy accuracy, some say they work just fine... I say it depends on how well they bored out the crown as to if it's a lemon or a peach.
Use a 9mm bore brush if you clean it. A 308 brush is too small.
Don't expect amazing accuracy from it. Mosin's were made fast and cheap. With that said, some Mosin's are real shooters, but they are the exception in this case. Shooting them is cheap as there is ample 7.62x54r surplus ammo out there.
So, go shoot it.
So... come down here and shoot it yourself! I'm still not sure what the guy was talking about in regards to ammo to buy for it! lol.
It's not my gun and I don't expect my BIL wants it to be super accurate. He just wanted it checked out for function, safe to fire etc. I'll let him actually fire it. I was just trying to get info about them since they are in my possession for the time being.
Would still like to get together sometime (in the next 100 years) with you and run a few boxes through my .308 for stuff... ect. "One of these days"...
SA Friday
01-04-2011, 16:23
Would still like to get together sometime (in the next 100 years) with you and run a few boxes through my .308 for stuff... ect. "One of these days"...
I have the 12th and 13th off next week (no school, no lab, no work...very rare occurances for me now a days). Pick one and weather permitting, we can meet up at Ben Lomand.
Gunsmiths, please chime in.
Same firearms as in original post.
BIL never made it up here, but he is on his way now.
Need to clean firearms.
Light rust on the outside of barrel on Mosin. I know to use very fine steel wool (what grade/number?) but what oil/cleaner do I use to remove it? Where to find cheap ammo in the Springs?
Hawkin black powder? What areas are a must for cleaning? Do I use anything special?
Any online manuals for either of these firearms for breakdown? I can get 'em apart but I'd like to have a backup in case I can't get 'em back together... BIL knows nothing about firearms and I barely know anything about these two particular firearms....
Thanks a plenty.
[Beer]
BPTactical
03-17-2011, 19:00
Haaay Bear-
If you have ANY doubt whatsoever of the caliber DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SHOOT IT!
It is far easier to "Cast" the chamber and confirm the cartridge than it is to pull a bolt or shrapnel outta your sexy mug!
For the rust try ATF and some blue jean denim. The ATF has real strong detergent properties and as far as the denim, it is plenty strong for some minor buffing action but easy on the finish-use the steel wool only as a last resort. The longer you can keep the rusty spots wet with the ATF, the better.
As far as the smokepole goes-Hot soapy water is the best bet. I like plain old Ivory soap flakes and boiling water. If you can remove the barrel from the stock, great. If you can't and don't want to chance getting the stock wet here is what to do: Get about 18" of vacuum line that will fit tightly on the nipple. Toss the other end in the pan of soap solution (which is on the floor) and with a cleaning jag and wet patch acting like a piston, pump the solution into the bore. Let it set a minute, a binder clip is handy to pinch the line. Let it drain and repeat however many times, changing the soap solution a couple of times until the solution comes out of the bore pretty clean. You will feel the bore getting cleaner, the smoother the pumping action the cleaner it is getting. Rinse the bore with boiling water and let it flash dry and oil it well immediately after.
If it has been sitting awhile with fouling in it count on some rust in the bore. Black powder fouling attracts moisture (Hygroscopic).
If it was I- I would also pull the lock and check for any corrosion/fouling behind the drum/nipple area.
What is the maker on this rifle by chance?
Haaay Bear-
If you have ANY doubt whatsoever of the caliber DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SHOOT IT!
It is far easier to "Cast" the chamber and confirm the cartridge than it is to pull a bolt or shrapnel outta your sexy mug!
For the rust try ATF and some blue jean denim. The ATF has real strong detergent properties and as far as the denim, it is plenty strong for some minor buffing action but easy on the finish-use the steel wool only as a last resort. The longer you can keep the rusty spots wet with the ATF, the better.
As far as the smokepole goes-Hot soapy water is the best bet. I like plain old Ivory soap flakes and boiling water. If you can remove the barrel from the stock, great. If you can't and don't want to chance getting the stock wet here is what to do: Get about 18" of vacuum line that will fit tightly on the nipple. Toss the other end in the pan of soap solution (which is on the floor) and with a cleaning jag and wet patch acting like a piston, pump the solution into the bore. Let it set a minute, a binder clip is handy to pinch the line. Let it drain and repeat however many times, changing the soap solution a couple of times until the solution comes out of the bore pretty clean. You will feel the bore getting cleaner, the smoother the pumping action the cleaner it is getting. Rinse the bore with boiling water and let it flash dry and oil it well immediately after.
If it has been sitting awhile with fouling in it count on some rust in the bore. Black powder fouling attracts moisture (Hygroscopic).
If it was I- I would also pull the lock and check for any corrosion/fouling behind the drum/nipple area.
What is the maker on this rifle by chance?
BP, you rock dude.
The Black powder rifle is a Thompson center Hawkin remake. It's a .50.... I am able to break it down and remove barrel... I just hope I can remember to re-engingeer the trigger components... may have to take pics as I dissasemble.... Where can I find powder, ball, etc?
The Mosin... I'm a little confused on what caliber it is as when I talked to a different gunsmith to get it checked for suitability of firing, he said something about it being a "preconversion" and only to use a certain type of ammo and blah, blah blah.... I may try to post pics here tomorrow evening to see if you guys can help identify it... but that won't happen till after work.
Also, what is "ATF" and where can I find it? Dicks, Wally World, Ace, etc...
Thanks. I really appreciate it. Hopefully my BIL will too, HAHA. We'll get the cleaning done Sat morn prob and see if we can't shoot it sometime that afternoon if I feel comfortable enough, etc... I understand the ka-boom risk.
No, I don't have life insurance and the wife has dibs on guns.
StagLefty
03-18-2011, 08:30
Powder,ball,patches,and caps should be available at Gander or Sportsmans.
Wish I'd known you needed them I sold about $200 worth of components last week. I had enough that I could have donated some to you [Beer]
Where you been by the way ?
BPTactical
03-18-2011, 08:47
ATF= Automatic Transmission Fluid, it doesn't matter what type BTW.
I would question the "appraisal" of 600.00 though.
The T/C "Hawken" is about as close to a Hawken as a Glock is to a 1911. About the closest commercial copy of a true Hawken pattern rifle is the Lyman Plains rifle and at best for a used one you are talking 400ish.
Again on the Moisin- if you have any doubts of the chambering don't attempt to shoot it.
Missed this the first time around, Must have been doing the battle of the for sale section.
First off, Being that it is a M38, Chances that it was rebored to 8mm is very slim. And if the date on it is post 1942 it's even slimmer. SA is correct about WWI ones. There were a few documented cases where the Romainians rebored captures late in WWII. Been awhile, But I seem to recall them being M44's for the most part.
"Normal" bore size on any nagant is .312. NOT .318 That is starting to get into 8mm territory. Look down the barrel, if it is counterbored that may be the reason for the larger measurement. And if that is the case, Never let that guy touch another rifle. At least not a Nagent
Counterbored just means that they removed the last 2" of rifling out of the bore to "improve" accuracy.
As far as the "S" goes, If the rifle was rearsenaled after WWII, it has a "S" on it. Cyrillic alphabet and all. Just means they fixed the wood, minor repairs to the gun, dipped in cosmo and it sat for 45-50 years.
Chances are it's just fine. But a few "low brow" checks you can do are (If you can get a hold of 7.62X54R round anyway.)
1- Pull the bolt, Check the fit under the extractor should fit with a bit of slop.
2- Drop round in chamber, it should be a decent fit.
3- Using a brand new .30 cal bore brush, run it through the bore, there should be "mild" resistance, But not the kind if you ran it through a .30/06.
If none one of those happens, Then, you may have problems.
Awaiting pic's [Tooth]
Was it mentioned that this is an M38? Did they even make M38's in 1938?
Well if the Russian Army worked on the same principle as everybody else, 1938 would have been the year it was adopted for service. It may have not made it into full production until a year or so later.
The oldest one I have seen myself had a 1940 date on it.
Well, no cause I had no idea what they were doing. All I know for sure is that they said it was a pre-conversion Mosin (No "S" stamp on the reciever) and that I should only fire .318 ammo and not the "standard" .324.... it's not too hard to find but I'm supposed to make sure it's not "overloaded" (hot loads?)
Didn't make sense to me either.
The only thing I can even think of on this is, If it was bored out to 8mm, it was post war.
Do the simple checks I mentioned in my previous post, and see if that is the case.
Well if the Russian Army worked on the same principle as everybody else, 1938 would have been the year it was adopted for service. It may have not made it into full production until a year or so later.
The oldest one I have seen myself had a 1940 date on it.
Just curious. My 91/30 is a 1938, my M38 is a 1943.
Powder,ball,patches,and caps should be available at Gander or Sportsmans.
Wish I'd known you needed them I sold about $200 worth of components last week. I had enough that I could have donated some to you [Beer]
Where you been by the way ?
That sucks about you selling the components... Where have I been? Well, I've been here, just lurking around. Was getting turned off with all the political threads and people bashin' each other etc... But more recently, I've been gone because I lost my job and have been using most of my time to find another.
ATF= Automatic Transmission Fluid, it doesn't matter what type BTW.
....
Again on the Moisin- if you have any doubts of the chambering don't attempt to shoot it.
Yes Sir.
...
Chances are it's just fine. But a few "low brow" checks you can do are (If you can get a hold of 7.62X54R round anyway.)
1- Pull the bolt, Check the fit under the extractor should fit with a bit of slop.
2- Drop round in chamber, it should be a decent fit.
3- Using a brand new .30 cal bore brush, run it through the bore, there should be "mild" resistance, But not the kind if you ran it through a .30/06.
If none one of those happens, Then, you may have problems.
Awaiting pic's [Tooth]
Need to go find some ammo then I'll try this.
I'm not a very good picture taker but I'll try to descirbe 'em too.
Edit: Apparently my pics are too big.... trying to remember my photobucket stuff....
In the meantime:
Rear of the bolt on the Moison has a crescent moon with a star, and the numbers 48
The "Logo" on the the action of the Moison has the same crescent moon. Around the moon it says (as best as I can see) "TC-AS-FA-ANK-ARA-1938"
I see NO "S" stamp but DO see an "M" marked on the rail of the reciever body (where you'd chamber a round).
On front barrel band it reads (as best as I can see) "B.9.[cryllic R].R.8.80", oppositge side of band justg says "10"
All parts move and seem in good shape. Clear rifling. Has bayo lug, sling points and rubber butt pad. Pretty darn sure the butt pad is aftermarket.....
http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac224/BigBeartrumpet/MoisinLogo.jpg
http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac224/BigBeartrumpet/MoisinAction.jpg
http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac224/BigBeartrumpet/HawkinAction.jpg
http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac224/BigBeartrumpet/Both.jpg
I take horrible pics... I know... sry
Don't worry about it, They look as good as you do. [Tooth]
I can't put my finger on it. Just something about the Nagant just is a bit off..
ETA; Your "Nagant" sounds a little "Turkish"
And, does it have any import marks?
My recollection of Nagant stuff is a little fuzzy, but I was under the impression that most military ammo for the 7.62x54R used .311 diameter bullets. My Nagant slugged at .308, so I never shoot surplus ammo in it (it seems ok, but flattens primers). Mine was actually built by Sako in Finland ~1938.
BINGO!
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/turkconversion.html
It just might be 8MM
ETA: Does your reciever mark look like this?
[quote]http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/turkconversioncrest.jpg
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/conversiontop.jpg
My recollection of Nagant stuff is a little fuzzy, but I was under the impression that most military ammo for the 7.62x54R used .311 diameter bullets. My Nagant slugged at .308, so I never shoot surplus ammo in it (it seems ok, but flattens primers). Mine was actually built by Sako in Finland ~1938.
The Finns took a good idea and improved it a bit. And if I remember correctly, They had the belief in the .308 version of 7.62mm as opposed to the Russian .311. Basicly because they Hate the Russians with a passion. Thus, got bullets elsewhere.
Oh, And I still have no faith in the dude at Hickman's.
BINGO!
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/turkconversion.html
It just might be 8MM
ETA: Does your reciever mark look like this?
[quote]http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/turkconversioncrest.jpg
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/conversiontop.jpg
That's it exactly... so details, this is a 8mm? We are having a bit of trouble taking the lower wood off the barrel. Have a dissasemble technique?
Did you look at the link?
[Tooth]
Couple of links in that one that should get you a little more info.
I just figured after reading your description, There was no way it was a Nagant..;)
And the pictures confirmed it.
Did you look at the link?
[Tooth]
Couple of links in that one that should get you a little more info.
I just figured after reading your description, There was no way it was a Nagant..;)
And the pictures confirmed it.
Rgr,
After more research it does seem to be a 8mm Turkish mauser... however, the bolt does not match the original (different numbers too) so it must be a replacement... so much weirdness... this is why I prefer newer firearms.
However, everything is clean and gtg. Thanks for all the help suggestions, etc.
Take care.
Bear
Just pay heed to this;
The same care should be taken in shooting the Turkish converted rifles as with any other M1888 German Commission Mauser. Even though they have been re-barreled to the modern .323 bore these rifles should only fired with minimum hand loads and preferably cast bullets. The receivers where built over 100 years ago and were not designed to take the pressures of modern ammo. It is recommended they not be fired with any Modern European or American Ammo.
With your question on the bolt though, I'd say you have a great wall hanger.
Just pay heed to this;
With your question on the bolt though, I'd say you have a great wall hanger.
Rgr, thanks again everyone for all the help etc. We went ahead and cleaned em all. The BP gun should be fine. The Mauser, I did tell him he could just get a "real" (known firearm) for just a few hundred. Told him I personally wouldn't shoot it. We still can't find a pic online of the rear of the bolt head that looks like his...
No, I can't take pics. He left a few hours ago. It looked like an old skeleton key (lock part) flattened and screwed onto the rear of the bolt... but we couldn't get it unscrewed or even the bolt seperated to clean teh firing pin, etc... Previous owner also apparently GLUED the barrel to the stock at the front sling point under teh barrel band... weird stuff...
My guess to that might be the safety.. Tell him to see if it pulls back and rotates and locks everything up.
ldmaster
03-19-2011, 23:27
If the denim doesn't do the trick (I love ATF, it's what predominates my soaking tank) you shouldn't use steel wool for a couple of reasons.
The microscopic particles of steel wool will embed in the steel and quickly start rusting again, even if you use oil you can't help but leave behind small particles.
The more Zeros (0) in a steel wool, the finer it is up to 000000. Typical stuff you'll find is 000 or 0.
Use brass wool, just as available and it doesn't scuff the steel, the rust is pretty soft and the brass wool floats it right off without marring the surface. Can't have too much lubrication, so dip it in ATF, rub, dip, etc...
Remember that most "blueing" is, essentially, a highly polished rust coating. It's how they make that deep blue, most Mosin's I've seen have a very light blueing coat, so it's prone to rust because it's finish is basically rust - keep it oiled!
S&W used to do 10 coats of rust/card/buff by HAND on their revolvers - oh for the good old days...
I'd cast the chamber to make sure the gun is a particular caliber, it's cheap to get the kit from brownells and it's reusable!
SOME Mosin's also made it into service with the Israeli's during the formation of their country. They always overstamped the barrel chambering, so it would be obvious if it was one of those.
The 762x54R catridge is sorta like the 45acp, it's been made with bullets from 100 to 220 grains, huge pressure differences and variations by manufacturers. This was mostly due to application, there was not "universal" loading for this round, it was almost always purpose made and issued only to those units with the gun it was intended for. Not to even talk about the East bloc rounds that hit the market, they varied hugely too.
The greatest difficulty a gunsmith would face with the 54R round is that it is a RIMMED cartridge, 8mm mauser, 762nato are all rimless designs. I've never seen a conversion that didn't involve a new barrel. If you haven't already done so, remove the action from the stock and inspect the barrel for arsenal marks, I'm betting it's an original barrel.
The federal 7.62x54R is a pretty mild load, and if it's the original barrel, should shoot safely.
Rinodods
04-05-2011, 08:06
I'd say you have a Turk GEW88 there. http://www.turkmauser.com/gew88/
If they actually told you that was a Mosin they are nuts. The mag does look similar but that is about it. The bolt release on the side should have been a giveaway at the least. Not to mention the receiver, bolt, sight....and on. lol
Glad you didn't waste any money on 7.62x54 ammo. I'm guessing their mention of conversions might have been in reference to some mausers being 7mm and them being converted to 8mm later. This is actually why most 8mm mauser commercial ammo is actually load pretty light. Just in case you fire it off in a 7mm rifle.
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