View Full Version : Shoot - No shoot? Your thoughts...
funkfool
12-29-2010, 14:29
http://www.newsfirst5.com/news/springs-store-owner-fires-a-gun-at-a-would-be-robber/
Springs store owner fires a gun at a would-be robber
Posted: Dec 24, 2010 6:02 PM by Matt Stafford
Updated: Dec 24, 2010 8:01 PM
Edward McNulty, a local jeweler, has been working hard to finish up a long list of Christmas orders. He stayed late Thursday night catching up, but when he left his shop, McNulty Jewelers at Union Blvd. and Briargate Parkway, around 10 p.m. he did something unusual, he grabbed his gun.
"For some reason I just picked it up and walked to my vehicle," says McNulty, recapping the events of the night before.
He didn't think he'd need the gun; he's never had a need to use it before. However on his way to his car, a man came from the side of the building, with his hand in is pocket, telling McNulty he had a gun and threatening him.
"He said that he had my family," McNulty explains.
But the robber didn't know that McNulty had a gun.
McNulty chased the robber across the parking lot, with the robber throwing rocks at him along the way. Eventually the robber got in a truck and headed straight for McNulty.
"He was driving after me," McNulty describes. "I got out of the way and I shot his tire."
The robber left the scene before police arrived. He didn't take anything, and didn't have McNulty's family.
Colorado Springs Police have been investigating. They say it's usually safer to cooperate in a situation like that, but it sounds like McNulty had a right to shoot.
"It sounds reasonable at this point," says Lt. Brian Ritz of the Colorado Springs Police Department. "The person has a right to use force to protect himself; whether it be deadly physical force or whatever the appropriate level of force may be to protect himself or his family."
The day after McNulty is still recovering. He's thinking about what happened. One part he's thinking a lot about is what made him get his gun before he left?
"I have no idea why I brought my gun out, but the situation could have been completely different if I didn't have my gun."
McNulty has his concealed weapons license, and plans to carry his gun more often.
Police are looking for a heavy set man, about 5'10". He was wearing a orange, puffy coat, a black hooded-sweatshirt, and a mask during the attempted robbery. They say his vehicle was a late-model, white, Ford F-150. If you have any information, please call Springs Police at 444-7000.
From the story it sounds like he may be justified here - however, if the 'robber' resorted to throwing rocks... I doubt he was armed...
But driving a vehicle at someone... that is deadly force..
too much hollywood trying to shoot at the tire...
I think it was a justifiable shoot... claimed he was holding hostages, tried to use vehicular manslaughter, etc...
I damn sure wouldn't have shot at the tire.....
If I knew he was trying to run me down, the front of the truck would have has some holes in it along with the side, and if it kept on going, the back. Of course I would have to be completely sure he was gunning for me and not just trying to drive by without getting shot scared as hell.
[UZI] [Driver]
This is something that concerns me. I don't know, but I'm under the impression that it is rather common for people to rob other people with just their hand in their pocket, pretending that they have a gun. I'm not likely to call the person's bluff, but when the police show up and find a shot up guy with no weapon, what position does that put me into as a shooter defending himself? If the guy tells me he has a gun, or makes me believe that he has a gun, then as far as I know, my life is threatened.
I would have kneecapped the kid and called the cops.
but then I'm a chairborne internet tough guy.
DeusExMachina
12-29-2010, 21:35
This is something that concerns me. I don't know, but I'm under the impression that it is rather common for people to rob other people with just their hand in their pocket, pretending that they have a gun. I'm not likely to call the person's bluff, but when the police show up and find a shot up guy with no weapon, what position does that put me into as a shooter defending himself? If the guy tells me he has a gun, or makes me believe that he has a gun, then as far as I know, my life is threatened.
Wondering the same thing. Better hope you have a better lawyer than the other guy?
I nearly forgot to answer the question. Guy in his vehicle? No shoot at that point. I'm surprised the police have said what they have so far.
No shoot legally anyway. Personally, I'm glad a would be, bitch made, thief got shot at.
DeusExMachina
12-29-2010, 21:46
I nearly forgot to answer the question. Guy in his vehicle? No shoot at that point. I'm surprised the police have said what they have so far.
No shoot legally anyway. Personally, I'm glad a would be, bitch made, thief got shot at.
Guy driving his vehicle at you and you wouldn't shoot? Its justified at that point. A vehicle is a deadly weapon.
kidicarus13
12-29-2010, 22:08
Guy driving his vehicle at you and you wouldn't shoot? Its justified at that point. A vehicle is a deadly weapon.
Not if it would reasonable to get out the truck's way. His chance was when the man approached, hand a hand in his pocket claiming it was a gun AND he claimed he had tje jeweler's family. The aftermath of the shooting would be hell if there was no gun but it would have been better than the jeweler getting shot/killed.
DeusExMachina
12-29-2010, 22:11
Not if it would reasonable to get out the truck's way. His chance was when the man approached, hand a hand in his pocket claiming it was a gun AND he claimed he had tje jeweler's family. The aftermath of the shooting would be hell if there was no gun but it would have been better than the jeweler getting shot/killed.
Across a parking lot with a truck driving straight at you, I'm not going to be trying to outrun the truck.
But if I had a gun, and a guy was pointing his pocket at me and said, "I have a gun", shots would have been fired before the rest of the story happened.
Across a parking lot with a truck driving straight at you, I'm not going to be trying to outrun the truck.
But if I had a gun, and a guy was pointing his pocket at me and said, "I have a gun", shots would have been fired before the rest of the story happened.
I agree with this second part. I'm not super worried about someone trying to run me over in a vehicle while we are in a parking lot. The guy was a jeweler, not a Costco manager. How big of a parking lot could it have been? Since he chased the guy TO his truck, it's not like he didn't had no idea what was coming. Dodging a car from a stop is different than trying to cross the highway or something.
kidicarus13
12-29-2010, 22:29
And you'd be up a creek if any witnesseses saw you stand in the path of the truck for more than 2-3 seconds and then shot at the truck after you chased the bad guy to the truck. I think the reasonable person attempts to escape when given the chance (i.e. when the bad guy starts running away)
This is a sticky one, so let's break it down into parts:
1. Guy walks up and threatens you with an unseen gun and threats against your family.
Do you have reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm? Yes. Bang.
2. Said idiot balks when you resist his threats and attempts to flee, while throwing rocks at you while you you are chasing him.
Do you have reason to shoot at this point? No. You should have broken off pursuit, and called law enforcement. Try to be a good witness, getting as much detail about the person and his vehicle as possible.
3. After you chase the miscreant to his vehicle, he sees you as a threat and tries to run you down.
Shoot? Depends. If he is deliberately trying to injure or kill you with the vehicle and you have no reasonable way to avoid it, yes. If he is trying to escape and you are blocking the only exit, you may be at fault as an aggressor. This is the grey area that might be trouble down the road.
I try to play these scenarios out in my head in advance, so I already have made the best possible decision before I'm put to the test. I REALLY don't want to have to shoot someone, but if I find myself in that situation, I'd like to think that I'll make a good decision.
The thing that gets me about shooting someone in a vehicle is the whole "He's coming right at me!" deal doesn't really apply. The only time I could see myself shooting at someone inside a vehicle, is if they were repeatedly trying to run me over, or they had a gun they were going to shoot me with. Even if someone was driving straight at you, shooting the operator isn't going to stop the vehicle, so you still have to move out of the way.
The other thing about this guy making a bad shoot, is that he said he shot at the tire. If you're not shooting to save your life, the life of someone else, then you shouldn't be shooting.
The only time I can think of that it might be appropriate to shoot at someone's tire, radiator, etc to stop a vehicle, is if the culprit has just kidnapped someone and stopping the vehicle is key to stopping the crime.
Agreed. Shooting a tire is Hollywood stupidity at best, particularly if the criminal is driving AT you. Playing cowboy is a great way to be looking at a set of prison bars from the wrong side.
This is a sticky one, so let's break it down into parts:
1. Guy walks up and threatens you with an unseen gun and threats against your family.
Do you have reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm? Yes. Bang.
2. Said idiot balks when you resist his threats and attempts to flee, while throwing rocks at you while you you are chasing him.
Do you have reason to shoot at this point? No. You should have broken off pursuit, and called law enforcement. Try to be a good witness, getting as much detail about the person and his vehicle as possible.
3. After you chase the miscreant to his vehicle, he sees you as a threat and tries to run you down.
Shoot? Depends. If he is deliberately trying to injure or kill you with the vehicle and you have no reasonable way to avoid it, yes. If he is trying to escape and you are blocking the only exit, you may be at fault as an aggressor. This is the grey area that might be trouble down the road.
I try to play these scenarios out in my head in advance, so I already have made the best possible decision before I'm put to the test. I REALLY don't want to have to shoot someone, but if I find myself in that situation, I'd like to think that I'll make a good decision.
I agree here on your break down. My thoughts exactly. If some1 approaches you and claims to have a gun wether you see it or not you have great fear of death or bodily harm so at that point BANG. Even though I feel most people that claim to have a gun in their pocket probably don't but at that point can you afford to find out? Also chasing him and he's throwing rocks? at that point I'd let him go and go back to saftey and call police with a discription but was he chasing him because he believed him to have his family and didn't want him to get away? If rocks was his choice of defense he probably didn't have a gun but since he was trying to get away shooting would not be a choice because you definately would pay for that 1 in court. Trying to run you down in his car, police use deadly force to defend themselves in that situation because YES, it is justifiable to shoot. Shooting the tire? waist of time but the guy is trying to run you down to get away putting your life in danger again so BANG. But will chasing him down when he was trying to get away then shooting him when he tried to run you down to defend yourself when you had a chance to get away to saftey and call police hurt you in court? May not be a good decision but if you are in that situation and have no choice then yes BANG.
I'd run someone over with my car if I felt they were an immediate danger to me. The thief probably felt the same way. Can you have two, opposing cases of self-defense?
buffalobo
01-03-2011, 20:27
This is a sticky one, so let's break it down into parts:
1. Guy walks up and threatens you with an unseen gun and threats against your family.
Do you have reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm? Yes. Bang.
2. Said idiot balks when you resist his threats and attempts to flee, while throwing rocks at you while you you are chasing him.
Do you have reason to shoot at this point? No. You should have broken off pursuit, and called law enforcement. Try to be a good witness, getting as much detail about the person and his vehicle as possible.
3. After you chase the miscreant to his vehicle, he sees you as a threat and tries to run you down.
Shoot? Depends. If he is deliberately trying to injure or kill you with the vehicle and you have no reasonable way to avoid it, yes. If he is trying to escape and you are blocking the only exit, you may be at fault as an aggressor. This is the grey area that might be trouble down the road.
I try to play these scenarios out in my head in advance, so I already have made the best possible decision before I'm put to the test. I REALLY don't want to have to shoot someone, but if I find myself in that situation, I'd like to think that I'll make a good decision.
+1, well said.
A person should have not had to fear being run over(see bold above) as you are carrying to defend yourself, not apprehend would be robbers. When the would be robber runs away the threat recedes along with the need to shoot. You should secure your position/safety(prepare for possible return of would be robber) and become a witness as TFOGGER stated.
Forgot to add, would be robber would likely be dead before we got to number 2
I'd run someone over with my car if I felt they were an immediate danger to me. The thief probably felt the same way. Can you have two, opposing cases of self-defense?
The would-be robber has no claim of self defense, as he was the original aggressor. Even if he was fleeing, he was guilty of felony menacing (if I wasn't so lazy, I'd post up the relevant statute).
Yeah, but once you try to break away from the conflict, and are pursued, the tables turn right? Or because he was trying to commit a felony is that not true?
The would-be robber has no claim of self defense, as he was the original aggressor. Even if he was fleeing, he was guilty of felony menacing (if I wasn't so lazy, I'd post up the relevant statute).
Here you go:
18-3-206. Menacing.
(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.
Yeah, but once you try to break away from the conflict, and are pursued, the tables turn right? Or because he was trying to commit a felony is that not true?
A non-LEO doesn't have a duty to pursue but he is still legally covered if he chooses to (within the parameters of the law). Is it a good idea to do so? If I were in his shoes, I probably wouldn't have done it...
16-3-201. Arrest by a private person.
A person who is not a peace officer may arrest another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the presence of the person making the arrest.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-04-2011, 15:00
This is something that concerns me. I don't know, but I'm under the impression that it is rather common for people to rob other people with just their hand in their pocket, pretending that they have a gun. I'm not likely to call the person's bluff, but when the police show up and find a shot up guy with no weapon, what position does that put me into as a shooter defending himself? If the guy tells me he has a gun, or makes me believe that he has a gun, then as far as I know, my life is threatened.
That's why you wait for the lawyer before you start talking.
I think the whole case is interesting because of the kidnapping threat. The threat doesn't end when the BG turns tail and runs- that is just a movement towards another threat. After all this is over and the BG is unarmed and doesn't have your family I don't doubt you are going to have some legal problems that will not inexpensively go away- but they should go away. My priorities are family safety first and legal bills second.
To me the threat and the encounter doesn't end until I have secured my family. Shoot him in the back as he runs away, thru the windshield- I am eliminating a viable and current threat to my family.
Being dumb, ill-equiped and unprepared is not a defense for armed robbery and kidnapping. You stand up at the plate of big-boy crime, you had better be able to handle the heat that people pitch at you.
A hardened criminal isn't going to give you a time out and I'm not going to give any quarter to someone attacking me of my family.
2008f450
01-04-2011, 15:45
This is a sticky one, so let's break it down into parts:
1. Guy walks up and threatens you with an unseen gun and threats against your family.
Do you have reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm? Yes. Bang.
2. Said idiot balks when you resist his threats and attempts to flee, while throwing rocks at you while you you are chasing him.
Do you have reason to shoot at this point? No. You should have broken off pursuit, and called law enforcement. Try to be a good witness, getting as much detail about the person and his vehicle as possible.
3. After you chase the miscreant to his vehicle, he sees you as a threat and tries to run you down.
Shoot? Depends. If he is deliberately trying to injure or kill you with the vehicle and you have no reasonable way to avoid it, yes. If he is trying to escape and you are blocking the only exit, you may be at fault as an aggressor. This is the grey area that might be trouble down the road.
I try to play these scenarios out in my head in advance, so I already have made the best possible decision before I'm put to the test. I REALLY don't want to have to shoot someone, but if I find myself in that situation, I'd like to think that I'll make a good decision.
At step one im drawn and pointing at BGs chest. At that point im yelling stop stop put your hands where i can see them. if his hand is still in pocket and i feel he is a threat its 2 to the chest.I wouldnt chase him across the parking lot. i would just try to get good description and lic. plate number while calling LE. But in the heat of the moment who knows
DeusExMachina
01-04-2011, 15:52
Not sure if I'd go as far as yelling at him...its not easy to shoot someone from your pocket but I don't think I'd want to risk it since I can't see what he's doing in there.
Geology Rocks
01-04-2011, 17:05
my opinion is no. when the suspect decided to run that was you chance to go the other direction or get into your car and drive away. this guy became the aggressor which you cant prove fear of life and limnb if you are actively chasing the guy.
joe
steveopia
01-04-2011, 18:24
16-3-201. Arrest by a private person.
A person who is not a peace officer may arrest another person when any crime has been or is being committed by the arrested person in the presence of the person making the arrest.
At step one im drawn and pointing at BGs chest. At that point im yelling stop stop put your hands where i can see them. if his hand is still in pocket and i feel he is a threat its 2 to the chest.I wouldnt chase him across the parking lot. i would just try to get good description and lic. plate number while calling LE. But in the heat of the moment who knows
This was my initial thought as well. However, I can fully appreciate DeusExMachina's point also.
Having the cops show up and the would be robber not having a weapon on him (as brought up earlier by Stuart in post #5) is absolutely frightening to me. At that point, short of being lucky enough to have a video camera pointing your direction, how do you even prove that this guy was trying to rob you? I guess that's what made me think it'd be good to start with trying to yell at the guy or attempting to "apprehend" him.
Potentially the biggest gamble of your life either way.
Not sure if I'd go as far as yelling at him...its not easy to shoot someone from your pocket but I don't think I'd want to risk it since I can't see what he's doing in there.
Colorado Springs Police have been investigating. They say it's usually safer to cooperate in a situation like that
"usually safer"
if I have a gun I'm not going to bet my life or my family's life on "usually"
Ak47Ar15Glock26
02-20-2011, 22:37
+1 for the guy at least being armed. no gun, no chance. ida shot the prick after "ive got a gun"
Chad4000
02-26-2011, 11:38
But if I had a gun, and a guy was pointing his pocket at me and said, "I have a gun", shots would have been fired before the rest of the story happened.
agreed
KevDen2005
02-26-2011, 14:38
http://www.newsfirst5.com/news/springs-store-owner-fires-a-gun-at-a-would-be-robber/
From the story it sounds like he may be justified here - however, if the 'robber' resorted to throwing rocks... I doubt he was armed...
But driving a vehicle at someone... that is deadly force..
I would say a rock getting thrown at my head is deadly force...I was also afraid for my life...
ldmaster
02-27-2011, 00:46
Like some/many here, I've used my gun for work and have faced these situations.
While training and doctrine are simplistic BY DESIGN, even necessarily simplistic. I don't actually think a single person here would draw and shoot someone just because he SAID he was going to shoot you. Easy to say, much much harder to actually do. That doesn't mean you wouldnt draw, or even that you wouldn't shoot, it just means that the statement of what you do almost never matches the reality of a real confrontation.
Someone said something about "show me your hands" being the thing to shout.
Consider that eyewitness testimony as to what physically happened is almost always flawed and/or full of inconsistencies with the truth, BUT, a person's auditory memory is much more accurate.
I would much rather have witnesses here me yelling at someone to "drop your weapon" than "let me see your hands". In fact, studies have shown that the linkage between what someone hears and what they perceive they saw can be significantly influenced by what was said. In fact I know that there have been instances where eyewitnesses present have made the statement, "the cop said to show him his hands, and when the gun was pulling his hands to DO WHAT THE COP said, the cop just shot him for no reason."
It's not enough to BE justified, it's not about the truth - it's about what you can prove and what the evidence will support. Politicians (which includes all DA's) live and breath for weeding out what they call "vigilante justice". Since government has seized the full scope of the criminal justice system in the 1930's they don't tolerate the perception that anyone besides them has the absolute right to enforce any law, or preserve the public's safety, prior to that the district attorney function was mainly limited to crimes against the state, not crimes against persons.
I can't tell you the number of stupid situations I have simply run or walked away from where my life was in danger, you'd think I was a 20 year old adrenaline junkie, for me, stuff just HAPPENS. In most cases the bad guy didn't even know he was risking his life. I don't bother calling the police anymore either unless someone else wants it. On a vacation in San Diego a year or so back I intervened when a drunken man punched a woman in the face while she was defending her children from his drunken antics. It was out of the blue, entirely unprovoked. It took SIX HOURS for San Diego PD to show up to take the report. It wasn't that any particular cop wouldn't have loved to catch the guy, but the manpower wasn't there to respond to such "low priority" calls. For myself I would have just beat the guy up, but once confronted by a man, he backed off and just got belligerent. I was barefoot and in swimming trunks, not the ideal tactical outfit.
What SHOULD I have done? I dont' know, only know what I did. What should YOU do? Take each event as it develops, but never ever tell yourself that you will or wont do a particular thing - you just dont know beyond some basic stuff.
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