View Full Version : making an llc
can someone walk me through EVERYTHING with an llc? ive seen conflicting data all across the net.
do you have to do taxes if you don't make any profits? is it a one time fee, or once a year fee? any specific info you have to know or do to comply with atf?
You have to have an annual meeting or something with all your members (even if you're the only member).
i am not trying to be annoying but would someone be willing to walk me through it, either here or through pm? i don't want to make a big booboo when doing it and want to know the time and cost involved ahead of time.
Go here and start at the top and work your way down through the list of things to do.
http://www.colorado.gov/cbe/stepsNew.html
but what i am concerned about is whether there is anything specific i need to do since its for nfa. or is there something special i need to send to the atf, or just simply put the llc name on the form?
ZombieKiller25
01-01-2011, 22:48
but what i am concerned about is whether there is anything specific i need to do since its for nfa. or is there something special i need to send to the atf, or just simply put the llc name on the form?
Here's the down and dirty version:
Create the LLC through the State of Colorado website. It should cost you no more than $50
Print and save a copy of your Articles of Organization (You get this after your registration is complete) as you'll need this later.
Fill out your Form1/4 with your LLC information. You dont need fingerprints or CLEO signoff. Leave those areas blank.
Mail your Form1/4 along with your check, Articles of Organization and I usually throw in a State Certificate of Good Standing for my LLC for safety. I don't think the good standing cert if actually needed, just an extra.
Poof....your done. Every year you'll have to file an annual report through the states website and I believe thats $10 to file.
You have to send some doument to show that there is a LLC.
Here is my Standard Reference advice- Download thew BATFE NFA Handbook-
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/
Page 59 Section 9.4.2.2 kinda vaguely addresses it.
"ATF requires that the Form 4 or Form 5 include documentation evidencing the existence of the entity. This documentation would include,without limitation, partnership agreements, articles of incorporation, corporate registration,..."
HTH
Steve A
Just to be clear, you DO still have to send a finger print card in with your form correct?
Just to be clear, you DO still have to send a finger print card in with your form correct?
I think its one of the things you don't have to do since its a LLC.
So you have to do it with a CLEO sign off and a trust, but not with an LLC?
Rattatatt
01-02-2011, 01:38
You need fingerprints done if you are an individual (CLEO signoff). I don't know about the
Trust. You can't fingerprint a business entity so none required on a Corporation or LLC.
Bob
You do need to send in a finger print card on a trust. I just assumed it was the same for an LLC.
ZombieKiller25
01-02-2011, 08:55
You DO NOT need fingerprints cards or CLEO sign off with a Trust or LLC. Anyone you want to be able to handle your NFA items when your not around will need to be listed as members of the LLC when you register the company. No different than listing people on a trust for access to the NFA items.
What are the advantages/disadvantages of a trust vs a LLC?
ZombieKiller25
01-02-2011, 10:02
What are the advantages/disadvantages of a trust vs a LLC?
They are pretty much even. To get a good trust written, you'll need a lawyer that knows NFA laws. Typically I've heard people paying $750 - $1000 for a good trust. LLC's cost $50 up front and $10 a year after that. So with the trust you pay up front and the LLC is like a payment plan.
Plus with a Trust or LLC, you can list other people on there that will be able to have access to the NFA items when your not around. If you go the individual route, no one can have access to NFA items unless your present.
Personally I think both are viable options than getting prints, pics and signatures.
A trust doesn't need anything done to keep it alive. A LLC has to have stuff done annually to keep it going. If you fail to keep it going your LLC ceases to exist and you then posses NFA items illegally.
A trust doesn't need anything done to keep it alive. A LLC has to have stuff done annually to keep it going. If you fail to keep it going your LLC ceases to exist and you then posses NFA items illegally.
true, but i think cost wise its worth it for the extra "work"
You DO NOT need fingerprints cards or CLEO sign off with a Trust or LLC. Anyone you want to be able to handle your NFA items when your not around will need to be listed as members of the LLC when you register the company. No different than listing people on a trust for access to the NFA items.
Have you personally gotten a Form 1 or Form 4 approved on a trust without supplying a finger print card?
ZombieKiller25
01-02-2011, 15:28
Have you personally gotten a Form 1 or Form 4 approved on a trust without supplying a finger print card?
Me personally? No, I don't go the trust route. I do however have several friends I go shooting with a monthly basis that went the trust route and they've never submitted fingerprints for a trust. Kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it?
That's good to know. I always assumed people turning in forms with finger print cards had trusts.
Have you personally gotten a Form 1 or Form 4 approved on a trust without supplying a finger print card?
Yes, I have had both Form 1's and Form 4's approved on a trust without submitting fingerprints or other personal information. On the Form 4s I had to fill out a 4473 when I picked them up but there was no background check done then.
On a related subject -
The ATF had a table at a recent Tanner gun show in Denver. They said to me that the ATF has changed its' policy concerning background checks for NFA items. I was told that from now on that the individual picking up a item on a trust or corporate type entity will have to pass a background check as if they were picking up a regular gun. I haven't been able to find anything on the BATFE website about this though.
This is great news. I remember back in 08-09 people were having a real difficult time finding finger print cards. I guess they all lived in areas with sheriffs that followed the law.
ZombieKiller25
01-02-2011, 19:24
That's good to know. I always assumed people turning in forms with finger print cards had trusts.
The only time you actually need to turn in cards is when your doing it as an individual.
Now if we could just get the registry open or eliminated for machine guns we could all put our LLC's to good use.
hey on one of the forms it asked if you will be using this llc for alcohol, tobacco, or firearms. what do i answer there? also do i have to fill out the unemployment form or anything else other than the initial form that i pay the $50 for and the EIN? want to make sure i got all the bases covered.
also, to the atf im sending two copies of the form 1, a copy of my llc organization paper, and two copies of the compliance forms and the $200 check. thats it right?
ZombieKiller25
01-03-2011, 19:43
hey on one of the forms it asked if you will be using this llc for alcohol, tobacco, or firearms. what do i answer there? also do i have to fill out the unemployment form or anything else other than the initial form that i pay the $50 for and the EIN? want to make sure i got all the bases covered.
also, to the atf im sending two copies of the form 1, a copy of my llc organization paper, and two copies of the compliance forms and the $200 check. thats it right?
I'm not sure what form your talking about when it comes to A, T or F. I never had those questions when I filled out my LLC on the state website. You also don't need an EIN as you won't be filing taxes.
When I submit my Form's I send two copies of everything.
For what it's worth, i just talked to the Denver office of the BATF yesterday and they told me the would not issue a stamp to a LLC
ZombieKiller25
01-05-2011, 17:22
For what it's worth, i just talked to the Denver office of the BATF yesterday and they told me the would not issue a stamp to a LLC
LOL...and he obviously doesn't know his ass from his elbow.
Just repeating what i was told, here is their number 3/844-7545.
I live in Adams Co. and the Sheriff will not sign off if you are a "collector"
so i am trying to get around the county, my gun dealer said the best way would be to develop a Trust which would allow me to skip the county.
Now looking for an Attorney that is savy to the process.
The local field office doesn't have anything to do with NFA transfers. I would contact the ATF headquarters before I did a trust. That's if you would rather do it on a LLC or something else. It would be a radical change if they stopped. I'm sure the other NFA forums I frequent would be screaming about it if they have stopped taking LLC's.
ZombieKiller25
01-08-2011, 16:00
The local field office doesn't have anything to do with NFA transfers. I would contact the ATF headquarters before I did a trust. That's if you would rather do it on a LLC or something else. It would be a radical change if they stopped. I'm sure the other NFA forums I frequent would be screaming about it if they have stopped taking LLC's.
True. The ATF wouldn't stop accepting LLC's / Corps because that would put people like H&K, Bushmaster, Colt, etc out of business as they wouldn't be able to register any new MG's.
ive got mixed answers on the yearly fee thing. does the state warn you its about to expire or do you just have to be on the ball? do you just go online and pay? how much is it?
i think ive got everything else figured out. they accepted my sbr paperwork (isnt it funny how they cash the check so early but still make you wait), and im in the process of using it for a suppressor. nice thing is you don;t have to do any taxes on it. so if i understand correctly, the only thing you have to do is stay in good active standing with colorado by paying yearly
ZombieKiller25
02-04-2011, 23:22
ive got mixed answers on the yearly fee thing. does the state warn you its about to expire or do you just have to be on the ball? do you just go online and pay? how much is it?
i think ive got everything else figured out. they accepted my sbr paperwork (isnt it funny how they cash the check so early but still make you wait), and im in the process of using it for a suppressor. nice thing is you don;t have to do any taxes on it. so if i understand correctly, the only thing you have to do is stay in good active standing with colorado by paying yearly
Correct. I get a notice from the state about 30 days out stating that I need to file my annual report. I head to the state websites, pay my $10 and file my report. All done, nice and easy
TriggerHappy
02-13-2011, 20:24
Can you take people off your llc and add people as you see fit? (members allowed to handle NFA goodies) How does that work? Also can you write off ammunition and such?
ZombieKiller25
02-15-2011, 16:11
Can you take people off your llc and add people as you see fit? (members allowed to handle NFA goodies) How does that work? Also can you write off ammunition and such?
In talking with an ATF examiner, they said you can go one of two ways. Either type up on company letterhead who in the LLC is authorized to possess NFA items or amend your AOO with the state to list additional members.
TriggerHappy
02-15-2011, 23:27
"Articles of Organization" Correct me if I am wrong.
ZombieKiller25
02-16-2011, 17:16
"Articles of Organization" Correct me if I am wrong.
You got it
Is there anyone in this thread with a Trust or LLC that wishes that they had gone the other way? I always assumed that I would go with a trust, but now I'm very interested in going the route of an LLC.
What all is involved in filing the annual "report?" Just updating what is owned by the LLC?
Is there anyone in this thread with a Trust or LLC that wishes that they had gone the other way? I always assumed that I would go with a trust, but now I'm very interested in going the route of an LLC.
What all is involved in filing the annual "report?" Just updating what is owned by the LLC?
Me too I just recently started researching NFA and have so many questions right now.
ZombieKiller25
02-22-2011, 17:23
Is there anyone in this thread with a Trust or LLC that wishes that they had gone the other way? I always assumed that I would go with a trust, but now I'm very interested in going the route of an LLC.
What all is involved in filing the annual "report?" Just updating what is owned by the LLC?
They both do the same thing, so its pay up front or over time. Personally I like the LLC route but thats my opinion.
The annual report is nothing more than going online with the state and basically verifying all of your info is still correct and paying $10.
Zombie you have a PM.
The jist of my question is, "What is the business purpose you put down when creating the LLC? Don't you have to have a business purpose?"
Me too I just recently started researching NFA and have so many questions right now.
ATF National Firearms Act Handbook
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/
The ATF website is a good place to get information. It doesn't ahve much on LLCs or Trusts though.
ZombieKiller25
02-23-2011, 20:42
Zombie you have a PM.
The jist of my question is, "What is the business purpose you put down when creating the LLC? Don't you have to have a business purpose?"
Replied! For everyone else, you don't have to tell the State or the ATF what the LLC actually does or hold. All they care about is that you filled out the paperwork and you have a name thats available for register.
So does the NFA investment register to the LLC or to the person that owns it?
So does the NFA investment register to the LLC or to the person that owns it?
The LLC owns the NFA item. A LLC is a "person" under NFA regulations. The paperwork only refers to the LLC. The NFA registry will only list the LLC.
So when you show someone your stamp, when someone wants to verify that you are legally in possession of the weapon; is the stamp good enough, or are they going to want you to produce even more documentation proving your relationship with the LLC?
So when you show someone your stamp, when someone wants to verify that you are legally in possession of the weapon; is the stamp good enough, or are they going to want you to produce even more documentation proving your relationship with the LLC?
The Form 4 (or whatever) will only have your LLC info on it. To show the chain tieing it to you it would require some documentation that you are part of the LLC, if the LLC information doesn't tie you to the LLC. If the LLC is Blue Sky LLC it would be different then John Q Smith LLC.
The only thing in your possession proving the NFA item you have is legally in your possession will be the form you sent in with the canceled stamp on it. The original form you sent in is returned with a canceled stamp on it.
The same tax stamp that caused a revolution BTW.
ZombieKiller25
02-24-2011, 07:08
Normally what I do is have a copy of my Form1/4, and a letter on my "LLC letterhead" stating which company employees can possess the NFA items. Talked with the ATF about that several times and they said thats fine.
When your register an LLC with the state, it'll ask who the main member is and you can just list yourself. If you didn't want to go the letterhead route then you'll list yourself as the Manager and your family members as members during the registration and that a copy of your AOO along with you.
So when you show someone your stamp, when someone wants to verify that you are legally in possession of the weapon; is the stamp good enough, or are they going to want you to produce even more documentation proving your relationship with the LLC?
If you're showing your stamp to a local cop because he pulled you over or something he's not going to know what the hell it is anyways. This is one area where a trust may be beneficial, my trust is the "RTR revocable trust", that is what the Form 4s say, so if I have to show them to someone having that and my ID makes things pretty obvious.
ZombieKiller25
02-24-2011, 22:24
If you're showing your stamp to a local cop because he pulled you over or something he's not going to know what the hell it is anyways. This is one area where a trust may be beneficial, my trust is the "RTR revocable trust", that is what the Form 4s say, so if I have to show them to someone having that and my ID makes things pretty obvious.
Honestly, a bunch of cops won't know the difference between trust paperwork or an LLC.
Normally what I do is have a copy of my Form1/4, and a letter on my "LLC letterhead" stating which company employees can possess the NFA items. Talked with the ATF about that several times and they said thats fine.
When your register an LLC with the state, it'll ask who the main member is and you can just list yourself. If you didn't want to go the letterhead route then you'll list yourself as the Manager and your family members as members during the registration and that a copy of your AOO along with you.
If you list employees, don't you then have to get an EIN number?
ZombieKiller25
02-25-2011, 05:11
If you list employees, don't you then have to get an EIN number?
No. The only time your need an EIN is if your business will be taking in revenue and you need to report that to the IRS.
Question for those in the know. Can only members (owners/partners) be in possession of NFA firearms or can employees also be in possession?
my form 4 were all approved with an LLC. This is how I do it
Example LLC (my name)
Honestly most of my form 4's were approved like this. Some examiners let this slide an approve and some do not. I just got an approval on thurs. Like this done but my form 4 that was approved 2 weeks before was sent back to me to cross out my name. Btw this was the same examiner for both.
ZombieKiller25
02-27-2011, 10:28
Question for those in the know. Can only members (owners/partners) be in possession of NFA firearms or can employees also be in possession?
Asked the ATF and either is fine. Managers/Members of the LLC are listed on the AOO which is pretty easy. Or you can type something up on LLC letterhead to state which "employees" can possess NFA items.
UNFmoose
03-02-2011, 10:34
So I registered an LLC last night. Does the state now send me the AOO? Or, is it something I can print off online and get going on Form 1 right away? Also, I didn't list any members last night other than myself, is that something that is easy to change? I probably should have asked these questions first [Abused], but I am also not in a big hurry or anything.
I don't think the state sends you anything. You are going to have to set up the AOO yourself but I don't know if you file with the state or not?
ZombieKiller25
03-02-2011, 21:11
So I registered an LLC last night. Does the state now send me the AOO? Or, is it something I can print off online and get going on Form 1 right away? Also, I didn't list any members last night other than myself, is that something that is easy to change? I probably should have asked these questions first [Abused], but I am also not in a big hurry or anything.
The AOO is that PDF thing that your supposed to print out and save at the very end of your registration. If you didn't happen to save/print, you can always go back to the website, run a search for your company and print it off.
It's very easy to go back and add members, no big deal. Takes all of a couple minutes on the state site.
UNFmoose
03-02-2011, 23:23
The AOO is that PDF thing that your supposed to print out and save at the very end of your registration. If you didn't happen to save/print, you can always go back to the website, run a search for your company and print it off.
It's very easy to go back and add members, no big deal. Takes all of a couple minutes on the state site.
Sweet, I have looked it up a couple of times but wasn't sure that the "official" document. I'll print it out at work tomorrow. So, now I just need to re-read the thread and find the post with everything I need to send in. Thanks Zombie!
ZombieKiller25
03-03-2011, 20:16
Sweet, I have looked it up a couple of times but wasn't sure that the "official" document. I'll print it out at work tomorrow. So, now I just need to re-read the thread and find the post with everything I need to send in. Thanks Zombie!
No problem. The only things you'll need to send in is your Form1/4, copy of your AOO and I usually throw in a cert of good standing that is from the state as well. Remember, duplicates of each. And don't forget your check to uncle sugar.
after ZK's advice, i went the LLC route and its crazy easy and crazy cheap. i understand you the person won't own the nfa items and all that, but for how easy and cheap it is it seems like the best way to go to me.
UNFmoose
03-04-2011, 11:58
No problem. The only things you'll need to send in is your Form1/4, copy of your AOO and I usually throw in a cert of good standing that is from the state as well. Remember, duplicates of each. And don't forget your check to uncle sugar.
Thanks! Got it all and going in the mail today! Now time to start getting parts for the lower and save for the upper...
philip_g
03-04-2011, 13:52
thanks for all the advice in this thread guys.
philip_g
03-04-2011, 13:54
Have you personally gotten a Form 1 or Form 4 approved on a trust without supplying a finger print card?
I have. I can certainly post it with the appropriate information omitted.
No problem. The only things you'll need to send in is your Form1/4, copy of your AOO and I usually throw in a cert of good standing that is from the state as well. Remember, duplicates of each. And don't forget your check to uncle sugar.
Do you have to send in copies of the compliance forms also?
What are all the forms you sent in?
I'm wondering what I should send and what can be left out?
UNFmoose
03-10-2011, 12:38
I sent my completed From 1, cert of compliance, AOO, cert of good standing, and a check. This was last Friday, so I don't know for sure if that was all I need, but based off of what zombie said and a couple other sites, that should do. Everything was in duplicate.
ZombieKiller25
03-10-2011, 23:00
I sent my completed From 1, cert of compliance, AOO, cert of good standing, and a check. This was last Friday, so I don't know for sure if that was all I need, but based off of what zombie said and a couple other sites, that should do. Everything was in duplicate.
Thats all you should need!
UNFmoose
03-15-2011, 17:29
Well, my check cleared today...let's hope I did everything right!
heres an interesting question that i was recently asked.
if you have an llc under a certain business name (for arguments sakes lets say its magpul investment) and then you want to change it to magpul dynamics, can you do that if its still the same business?
a friend was asking because he wants to change his llc name but already sent in for an sbr with the old name. i find it hard to believe the atf (maybe even the state) would allow this, but told him id ask around anyways.
TriggerHappy
03-20-2011, 11:47
Just pulled the trigger and made an LLC. Working on Form 1/4 this week. Been saving for Gemtax on the 15th. Lets see how it goes.
patrick0685
03-20-2011, 12:52
Just pulled the trigger and made an LLC. Working on Form 1/4 this week. Been saving for Gemtax on the 15th. Lets see how it goes.
so exciting hopefully ill get to play with the new toy this summer[Beer]
TriggerHappy
03-20-2011, 17:17
so exciting hopefully ill get to play with the new toy this summer[Beer]
Hopefully you don't move to NC.
UNFmoose
07-13-2011, 09:14
Well, my check cleared today...let's hope I did everything right!
I'm retarded. Got my stamp back on June 17th, only to realize I flipped the first 2 letters of my serial number on Form 1. In the process of getting it changed now...
UNFmoose
07-25-2011, 15:35
Well, all is right in my world again. Received my corrected stamp today!
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