Sand vs Salt....when will they figure it out?

[cms81586]

Coming from PA where we probably get more snow than in CO (with the exception of some places in the mountains) I'm used to the State salting the roads. All I've seen in Colorado is sand. What's the deal with this and when will they figure out that salt does a whole lot more than spreading a little sand on top of the ice? Just sort of frustrating that the roads could have been salted yesterday, would have dried by today, and there would be no issue with driving this evening. Just a little fired up after almost being hit by no less than 3 idiots who can't figure out that you need to slow down when you're driving on solid ice.

CMS

[hurley842002]

I don't know about you, but i'd prefer my vehicle not be eaten up by rust, do to salting the roads (not that we've had enough snow this year to warrant a problem). Last time I checked, mag chloride is used primarily, with sand being dropped at slick stopping points.

[newracer]

Also it is sunny here a lot.

[SNAFU]

Its a sand/salt mix..speced at 15% salt
Can't remember the exact weight ratio.
.

[CrufflerSteve]

When I moved here in '76 I was amazed to see all the old cars in great shape. Back east they rusted to pieces from the massive salting of the roads. The gravel and sand might be rough on windshields but with the sun it works well.

This is also a dry state. If the roads were completely salted there might not be enough water to wash it away so they'd be dead zones.

Steve

[jerrymrc]

Coming from PA where we probably get more snow than in CO (with the exception of some places in the mountains) I'm used to the State salting the roads. All I've seen in Colorado is sand. What's the deal with this and when will they figure out that salt does a whole lot more than spreading a little sand on top of the ice? Just sort of frustrating that the roads could have been salted yesterday, would have dried by today, and there would be no issue with driving this evening. Just a little fired up after almost being hit by no less than 3 idiots who can't figure out that you need to slow down when you're driving on solid ice.

CMS

All I will say is you saw one of the rare times that the normal chain of events did not happen. About once every 4-5 years mother nature does not cooperate with how it works and you see what happens. The last was 4 years ago and all the people from out of state howled just like they do when Fifi gets snatched in the parks by a mountain lion.

Almost all the western states have been doing it this way for decades.

[llostwolf]

anything is better than mag cloride.... The stuff causes black ice when the temp drops.

[Inspector Fowler]

The mag chloride seems to work well most of the time. I hate how hard it is to clean off my windows and paint, though. I also get pretty upset when they lay it down so thick and then the snow never materializes - it really does act like a layer of oil on the road.

[jmg8550]

I would prefer they used only sand. Mag Chloride eats automotive wiring and is conductive to electricity. Also I would prefer people would learn how to drive in the snow and ice.

[gnihcraes]

Don't let them fool you with Mag Chloride, it does rust equipment. I know a person who worked for local county that used mag chloride, it eats the frames of the trucks just as quick as salt. They quit buying trucks with double frames because it would get in between the frame rails and was worse than the salt. FYI.

[hurley842002]

Also I would prefer people would learn how to drive in the snow and ice.

^^^^ This, all the Salt/Sand/Mag Chlor, in the world won't do a thing if people drive like asses. Most folks on the road drive horribly enough when it's dry out, then they drive even worse when it snows or rains.

[car-15]

^^^^ This, all the Salt/Sand/Mag Chlor, in the world won't do a thing if people drive like asses. Most folks on the road drive horribly enough when it's dry out, then they drive even worse when it snows or rains.
+1000

[mx'r]

It is salt. Cdot uses 12-15% salt with course sand. Most cities use salt/sand that is treated with mag-chloride. That's the ice-slicer that they talk about on the news. The reason we dont have as much rust is the humidity level. I've been selling salt/sand to local municipalities for the last 8 years. Believe me, when you see sand there is salt with it. Also in PA and other eastern states, they use ground coal cinder on the roads along with salt instead of sand. Lot's of big industry makes a great bi-product.

[hurley842002]

It is salt. Cdot uses 12-15% salt with course sand. Most cities use salt/sand that is treated with mag-chloride. That's the ice-slicer that they talk about on the news. The reason we dont have as much rust is the humidity level. I've been selling salt/sand to local municipalities for the last 8 years. Believe me, when you see sand there is salt with it. Also in PA and other eastern states, they use ground coal cinder on the roads along with salt instead of sand. Lot's of big industry makes a great bi-product.

Shows how much I know about the subject. The humidity makes sense as well, I didn't even think of that, but should have known.

Also another thing i've noticed, is there are an awful lot of folks running around with bald tires, I see it all the time in parking lots, and by bald, I mean dangerously bald even for dry conditions. It's usually the people with big trucks and oversize tires (guess they don't think of the cost of tires when buying a lifted truck). WE LIVE IN COLORADO PEOPLE, KEEP GOOD TIRES ON YOUR VEHICLE!!!

[cms81586]

I would prefer they used only sand. Mag Chloride eats automotive wiring and is conductive to electricity. Also I would prefer people would learn how to drive in the snow and ice.


That's asking a lot! I guess I'm just frustrated because there's so many bad drivers around here and I'm used to people knowing how to drive on snow. Either way...looks like it will all be gone in a few days.

CMS

[ChunkyMonkey]

WE LIVE IN COLORADO PEOPLE, KEEP GOOD TIRES ON YOUR VEHICLE!!!

+1... And amazingly the few accidents I have seen in Centennial area are caused by over confident jerks in 4x4.

[BPTactical]

The State uses 3 products basically:
Ice Slicer, which is a concentrated salt product out of Utah that is mixed with a clay binder. This is used statewide and is good to 10 degrees give or take. Used to cut ice that has already formed on the roadway surface and the binder gives a little traction similar to sand, but does not require post storm sweeping the way sand does for cleanup.

Magnesium Chloride in solution, concentration varies according to location. Generally good to 10 below. Application rates i.e. gallons per mile is critical and this is where things get fouled up most often. Too little and it wont work and too much results in residual on the road. The residual is what causes problems as it is hygroscopic and attracts moisture. It does leave a nasty scum and is hell on wiring, concrete and will pit aluminum. No matter what they may say it is not good in solution if it gets on lawns, trees or plants. It will kill them-look on I-70 just west of Dillon heading up the hill- trees are browning out on either side of the highway and it aint beetle kill. It is best used PRIOR to the storm to prevent ice from binding to the roadway surface.

Cinders mixed with light salt concentrate. Used mostly in the mountain areas that are enviromentally sensitive and cant take much salt. This is primarily a traction aid rather than a de-icer.

You also need to consider the weather conditions. If it is snowing it does not make sense to put down much material because you are just going to plow it off in your next laps.
With it being this cold any deicer is going to have a tough time from freezing up again, often creating a worse issue than you had to start with.
Sometimes you are better off leaving it alone as snow. Snow has some traction, ice doesnt.
The ground is still pretty warm, which meant anything that fell early on melted and froze quick and it is tough to stay ahead of it.
The nice thing though-anyplace that has been treated will go brown and get "mealy" the second sunshine hits it. Once it goes "mealy" it will melt quickly.

[TFOGGER]

Growing up here, I have watched the amount of salt in the salt/sand mix reduced greatly, as well as the amount of sand being put down. If I recall correctly, it has to do with the EPA regulating both the level of airborne dust from the sand and the level of salt discharged into streams as runoff. The other thing I've seen is the declining level of skill and concentration exhibited by drivers. Maybe if they'd put down the coffee and the cell phones, they could avoid some of the vehicle fusion experiments....[Rant1]

[BPTactical]

Growing up here, I have watched the amount of salt in the salt/sand mix reduced greatly, as well as the amount of sand being put down. If I recall correctly, it has to do with the EPA regulating both the level of airborne dust from the sand and the level of salt discharged into streams as runoff. The other thing I've seen is the declining level of skill and concentration exhibited by drivers. Maybe if they'd put down the coffee and the cell phones, they could avoid some of the vehicle fusion experiments....[Rant1]

You are correct as far as the enviromental restrictions-They are known as PM-10 and MS-4 requirements and are brought to you by DRCOG and EPA/Colorado Dept of Health, respectivley.
PM-10 deals with airborne particulates and although I forget what the PPM requirement is, it has been gradually reduced in the doctrine. The airborne PPM is a substantial ingredient in Denvers "Brown Cloud" and this is where the Ice-Slicer and Mag Chloride comes in. It does not leave a dusty residue the same as sand does. We used to have to sweep after every storm and only had 3 days to do it otherwise CDOT could be fined. Now they only have to sweep a couple times a season due to the reduction in particulates.

MS-4 deals with runoff into waterways and the sand was a major issue. There is a creek up by Eisenhower and by Vail Pass that were totally choked off by sedimentation. CDH wants basically "clean" runoff and again Ice Slicer and Mag have helped. They havent griped about the magnesium salts in the water yet.

TFOGGER-Not sure if you are referring to the general public or the plow drivers. If it is the plow drivers I do not agree with you. The overwhelming majority of them are just as dedicated as a LEO, EMT or fireman. They bust their ass for long hours so you can get where you need to go. They give up holidays, weekends, kids school events and just about everything else in the snow season so you can get around town. I always told my guys to treat every road they were responsible for as if their wife, daughter or mom was driving on it. I also told them that they were the difference between somebody kissing the jersey barrier and them making it home for dinner.
I will agree with you about the cell phones though, when I supervised crews if somebody was on the phone while they were in the plow they got a written reprimand. No questions, no excuses.
You guys gripe about spending an hour in traffic to get home in this crap. Yeah, it is aggravating.
Now think about the guys in the plows. We spend 12 hours at a minimum in it, trying to make it safe for yall to get home. You are on snowshift without a day off until the roads are dry, not really fun when you have storms like the Xmas storms of 2006. I had guys in plows for 6 weeks straight without a day off. You get home from a 12- 16 hour snowshift and you are totally wiped out. You spend the entire time in the truck, worrying about a 14' plow, 20,000 pounds of de-icer, 38,000 pounds of truck, your other trucks plowing with you, trying to remember every curb bullnose and bridge expansion joint or anything else that would tear up a plow, monitoring a two way, 10,000 idiots around you that can't drive, 10,000 other idiots in 4x4's that think they can drive and realizing that Omaha orange trucks have an affinity for attracting every sliding and slipping vehicle to it like a tractor beam.
Then when that shift is done you go home, try to relax and spend a little time with the family. When you try to go to sleep and close your eyes you still "see" the flashing of the strobes, especially if you were following a plow the entire shift.
After a few hours of fitful sleep you get to do it all over again.....
Give em a little space and don't try to pass them on the right!

[hurley842002]

Thanks for sharing your expertise on the subject BP, I don't doubt plow drivers are VERY dedicated and deal with a lot of peoples crap while trying to do their jobs, however I don't think TFOGGER was referring to plow drivers, but rather the general public. I've always thought driving a snow plow would be an awesome job, I'm one of the few that actually enjoy driving in the snow (drive a mildly modified rig and KNOW it's limits, and how to safely drive it in slick conditions), watching those rigs blast through, large and in charge, just awesome IMO.

[BPTactical]

I don't think TFOGGER was referring to plow drivers, but rather the general public.


Thanks Hurley- I took it that he was looking to the plows.
It does have its fine points, like lining up 12 plows and pulling I-25 all the way across from Hwy 7 all the way down to Lincoln Avenue and turning around and doing it all the way back.

TFOGGER- If you were referring to J.Q. Public I could not agree more and my apologies.

I was on an Accident Review Board for a while and the subject of making the public aware of snow removal operations came up. A little education would go a long way. The thing that always fried me: You have the drivers license test available in 7 different languages and aside from a small paragraph in the manual, there is little mention of snow removal.
Foreginers- How the hell is some foreigner from Vietnam, Saudi Arabia or any othe "Banana Belt" country supposed to be able to drive in this crap.

I guess thats why RTD buses and Taxis are always stuck[Muaha]

[hurley842002]

I guess thats why RTD buses and Taxis are always stuck[Muaha]

LMAO

I believe there are some serious flaws with the Dept of Motor Vehicles, with lack of any winter driving teaching being one of them. Not evaluating folks over a certain age being my top beef however, but that's a completely different topic for a different day.

[TFOGGER]

You are correct as far as the enviromental restrictions-They are known as PM-10 and MS-4 requirements and are brought to you by DRCOG and EPA/Colorado Dept of Health, respectivley.
PM-10 deals with airborne particulates and although I forget what the PPM requirement is, it has been gradually reduced in the doctrine. The airborne PPM is a substantial ingredient in Denvers "Brown Cloud" and this is where the Ice-Slicer and Mag Chloride comes in. It does not leave a dusty residue the same as sand does. We used to have to sweep after every storm and only had 3 days to do it otherwise CDOT could be fined. Now they only have to sweep a couple times a season due to the reduction in particulates.

MS-4 deals with runoff into waterways and the sand was a major issue. There is a creek up by Eisenhower and by Vail Pass that were totally choked off by sedimentation. CDH wants basically "clean" runoff and again Ice Slicer and Mag have helped. They havent griped about the magnesium salts in the water yet.

As far as the declining skill of the drivers after dealing with them for near 20 years your dead wrong TFOGGER. The overwhelming majority of them are just as dedicated as a LEO, EMT or fireman. They bust their ass for long hours so you can get where you need to go. They give up holidays, weekends, kids school events and just about everything else in the snow season so you can get around town. I always told my guys to treat every road they were responsible for as if their wife, daughter or mom was driving on it. I also told them that they were the difference between somebody kissing the jersey barrier and them making it home for dinner.
I will agree with you about the cell phones though, when I supervised crews if somebody was on the phone while they were in the plow they got a written reprimand. No questions, no excuses.
You guys gripe about spending an hour in traffic to get home in this crap. Yeah, it is aggravating.
Now think about the guys in the plows. We spend 12 hours at a minimum in it, trying to make it safe for yall to get home. You are on snowshift without a day off until the roads are dry, not really fun when you have storms like the Xmas storms of 2006. I had guys in plows for 6 weeks straight without a day off. You get home from a 12- 16 hour snowshift and you are totally wiped out. You spend the entire time in the truck, worrying about a 14' plow, 20,000 pounds of de-icer, 38,000 pounds of truck, your other trucks plowing with you, trying to remember every curb bullnose and bridge expansion joint or anything else that would tear up a plow, monitoring a two way, 10,000 idiots around you that can't drive, 10,000 other idiots in 4x4's that think they can drive and realizing that Omaha orange trucks have an affinity for attracting every sliding and slipping vehicle to it like a tractor beam.
Then when that shift is done you go home, try to relax and spend a little time with the family. When you try to go to sleep and close your eyes you still "see" the flashing of the strobes, especially if you were following a plow the entire shift.
After a few hours of fitful sleep you get to do it all over again.....
Give em a little space and don't try to pass them on the right!

I wasn't referring to the plow drivers, those guys are great(as well as incredibly tolerant). I was referring to the sunbelt soccer moms with starbucks and cell phones...

[roberth]

BP, I just learned a truckload about CDOT and stuff that I didn't know before.

Thanks!!!

[BPTactical]

I wasn't referring to the plow drivers, those guys are great(as well as incredibly tolerant). I was referring to the sunbelt soccer moms with starbucks and cell phones...

My apologies Sir-
Where I come from when somebody says "Drivers" in this weather my first thought is to the plows.

[spyder]

Hey at least you have that kind of stuff where you guys live. Here in Junction, you're lucky if you even see a normal plow around here.

[BPTactical]

Hey at least you have that kind of stuff where you guys live. Here in Junction, you're lucky if you even see a normal plow around here.

My folks live on the western slope and told me when GJ got 6 inches of snow they pulled plows from as far as Vail to plow in Junction.
You Banana Belt folks...........




Originally Posted by roberth http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.co-ar15.com/forums/showthread.php?p=280280#post280280)
BP, I just learned a truckload about CDOT and stuff that I didn't know before.

Thanks!!!


Absolutely and incredibly useless knowledge but fun at parties and bars[Tooth]

[Inspector Fowler]

Friday I drove from Fort Collins to Vail and back, and I had a lot of respect for the plow drivers who - even during the course of my drive - made the roads safe for everybody, experienced drivers and idiots alike.

[SA Friday]

Well, this is all based in chemistry. First, salts. A salt is a metal cation ionically bonded to a non-metal anion. So, sodium chloride (table salt) is what most people think of as salt, but magnesium chloride is also a salt. Magnesium bromide is also a salt... Some salts are soluble in water and some are not. Mag chloride disassociates in water, but the salt silver chloride really doesn't disassociate (technically it does but in such small amounts it's considered non-soluble). Almost all soluble salts are electrolytes, thus conduct electricity while in pure water. Pure water does not conduct electricity. When disassociate a salt in water you effect the water's colligative properties (freezing point goes down, boiling point goes up, and I won't confuse the issue with the rest of the changes). Depending on the salt, the effects are changed differently. According to both of my chemistry books, the freezing point of a pure mixture of MgCl2 and H2O is 5 degrees F.

Because we are at a higher altitude, we are effected to a greater extent by the particalization of gravel and clay than in lower and more humid areas. It's a huge problem to use gravel. Using the mag chloride is also a huge problem for run off as a lot of the water sources within the state is surface water. Not to mention environmental impacts to the state. So, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. There are other salts that can be used, but they are not as effective or are equally or more destructive to vehicles and the environment. Peat gravel seems to work well as long as it's removed immediately after the snow isn't an issue, but that would take tripling the work force and equipment to remove it (higher taxes). Shutting down the roads would have even worse inlays to the economy like putting huge dents in the skiing industry.

It is what it is. There is no easy fix.

[Irving]

Some of my best memories are of passing snow plows on the right.

[Dunno]

Also, when I was around 17 I spun out on I-70, doing about 70 mph, because of the magnesium chloride and it scared the living shit out of me. I've been a pussy about turns ever since. If I see any amount of glare on the road now, my butthole puckers. I spun out through a turn doing about 70 mph and I'd taken that same turn doing 95mph in a car that didn't handle as well as the car I was driving. It ruined me as a driver.

[theGinsue]

Last time I checked, mag chloride is used primarily, with sand being dropped at slick stopping points.

Not seeing too much of this getting put down this year. Normally I'd have seen it spread many times by now, but haven't seen any sign of it this year (in COS).


When I moved here in '76 I was amazed to see all the old cars in great shape. Back east they rusted to pieces from the massive salting of the roads. The gravel and sand might be rough on windshields but with the sun it works well.

This is also a dry state. If the roads were completely salted there might not be enough water to wash it away so they'd be dead zones.

Steve

After moving here from the midwest (MO, IL) I, too, noticed the number of old cars here that are still in great condition and was surprised. I think that hte combo of the dry, arid, conditions with the limited use of salt has played a major role in that.


anything is better than mag cloride.... The stuff causes black ice when the temp drops.

Been there, done t hat. Pulled a 360 in my Dodge Ram 2 years ago when I was making a left turn onto a road that had recently had the mag-chloride applied (didn't notice it at the start of my turn - couldn't miss it after my stunt driving!).


I b!tch about the policy of plows being kept 1" - 2" off of the pavement, but I seldom b!tch about the plow drivers (okay, sometimes on a case-by-case basis). I could NEVER do that job. Too much involved and too much liability for me. I'll stick with computers where the worst thing that I have to consider is losing someones files.

[BlasterBob]

We retired out here in Colorado from Illinois (Chicagoland area) where we were used to seeing most vehicles kinda rusting away. Now when we see a vehicle with quite a bit of rust we almost always say, "hey, there's another Illinois car".
My guns sure enjoy this lack of humidity!!

[blackford76]

Mag chloride eats aluminium, and works its way into electrical connectors. Plus it is a bitch to get off your windshield and mirrors, and it still freezes.
Sand, in states that use it, not like Colorado which uses 3/4 inch minus, works pretty good, if you don't put it down too heavy, and if you sweep it up afterwards. Just buy stock in windshield companies.
Salt, or a mix of salt/sand/de-icer, works great. If you don't like rust, stay on top of vehicle maintenance.
None are perfect, I prefer states who simply plow thier roads with the blades ALL the way down. When was the last time you saw sparks off of a CDOT blade? And use ice slicer, a mix of sand, salt and chemicals, I put it down on my driveway last winter twice, it lasted all winter. It melts snow/ice on contact, even in sub zero temps.

[BPTactical]

Mag chloride eats aluminium, and works its way into electrical connectors. Plus it is a bitch to get off your windshield and mirrors, and it still freezes.
Sand, in states that use it, not like Colorado which uses 3/4 inch minus, works pretty good, if you don't put it down too heavy, and if you sweep it up afterwards. Just buy stock in windshield companies.
Salt, or a mix of salt/sand/de-icer, works great. If you don't like rust, stay on top of vehicle maintenance.
None are perfect, I prefer states who simply plow thier roads with the blades ALL the way down. When was the last time you saw sparks off of a CDOT blade? And use ice slicer, a mix of sand, salt and chemicals, I put it down on my driveway last winter twice, it lasted all winter. It melts snow/ice on contact, even in sub zero temps.

You know why you don't see sparks off CDOT plow blades?
They have brazed carbide inserts and don't throw sparks. If you see sparks then they have worn through the carbide into the steel blade and it is time to change blades. CDOT plows use no skid shoes or bogey wheels to hold the blade off the pavement like most municipalities. Steel on pavement policy and it is not unusual to change blades every 12 hour shift.
This is not cheap. One 6' carbide blade is about 300.00. Each 12' plow uses 2 6' blades and 3 4' blades with the joints staggered for strength. They run double blades for wear. Multiply that times 98 trucks on average in Denver metro not to mention Ice Slicer/Mag Chloride, fuel at 60 gallons per truck per shift not to mention miscellaneous repairs, flat tires and such. Not to mention wages. An average 1 day snow event runs CDOT and average of 300K to 500K.
Your tax dollars at work.
Running with the blade on pavement has its challenges. You feel every crack, pothole and rain groove. Not to mention water valve boxes, manholes and utility access lids. Beats the hell out of you!
CDOT spends a lot of time prior to the snow season making sure that box lids and manhole covers are below the pavement surface by 3/4 to 1". Hard to believe but a water valve box that weighs 25 pounds can and will stop a 60,000# truck in its tracks! The real hazard is curb bullnoses and bridge expansion joints. They will tear a plow right off a truck( don't ask how I know). Funny thing is if you are cruising at 20 MPH or above the plow will bounce off and it won't hurt anything but if you are going slow it will catch and tear the plow off of the headframe.
That shit hurts man!
Most municipalities don't have the budget for blades or the resources to make sure that all the hazards are below pavement level and that is why they run with plows on bogeys or skid shoes.

[SNAFU]

BP don't forget all those nice hydrolic lines that love to rupture. Oh how fun crawling under a truck to replace those. At least all you flatlander plowers get to change out complete plows. How I love coming in after 4hrs just to change those nice "light" blades. All the time the snows melting off on you. 3215 {McClure Pass/Carbondale}

[BPTactical]

BP don't forget all those nice hydrolic lines that love to rupture. Oh how fun crawling under a truck to replace those. At least all you flatlander plowers get to change out complete plows. How I love coming in after 4hrs just to change those nice "light" blades. All the time the snows melting off on you. 3215 {McClure Pass/Carbondale}



[Beer]
To you SNAFU!
We don't swap complete plows unless one gets damaged, we are doing the same "Slush Hustle" swapping blades as you. And no, they aren't light-double hernia as evidence[Mad]
6858 (Denver Traffic)
Stay warm up there amigo!


Mag is a pain to clean off of your vehicle. Wash it well after every storm including the undercarrige. One thing I do at the end of each winter- I put the sprinkler under each of our vehicles for at least an hour and really let it flush well. Any electrical connections such as trailer sockets and light sockets get a dose of dielectric grease annually.

[JohnTRourke]

Ok
I do snow removal (privately) and most of the drivers (not plow guys) fucking blow ass around here.
Yeah, I'm hammering, but no I'm not insane.
a. I can drive
b. I am in a properly equipped vehicle for the conditions
c. it's a dead straight fucking road idiot and it's 3 in the morning, take the goddamn bus if you are so frightened.

oh, and I have studded snow tires (which are truly fucking amazing BTW, stop, start, whatever you want and I"m out way before the roads are clean for your late risers).

And if I didn't have to be working THERE'S NO WAY I WOULD BE OUT IN THIS SHIT. People are just dumber than rocks.

mag choride sucks
doesn't melt snow/ice
slicker than shit
makes it impossible to see either on the road or thru your windshield.

great thing about Montana
30 below keeps the riffraff out.

It would be a good policy to adopt here.

[theGinsue]

CDOT plows use no skid shoes or bogey wheels to hold the blade off the pavement like most municipalities. Steel on pavement policy and it is not unusual to change blades every 12 hour shift.

I certainly wish Colo Spr would adopt this policy. When they get their plows out the blades are at least 1" to 2" above the road surface. All this does is creates the largest ice skating rink known to man. I contend that with the existing Colo Spr snow removal policy, we'd be safer if the plows kept off of the streets.

On the other hand: Great job CDOT!

[hurley842002]

I certainly wish Colo Spr would adopt this policy. When they get their plows out the blades are at least 1" to 2" above the road surface. All this does is creates the largest ice skating rink known to man. I contend that with the existing Colo Spr snow removal policy, we'd be safer if the plows kept off of the streets.

On the other hand: Great job CDOT!

Crappy deal right there, From the sound of things according to BP (cost), looks as tho the city of CS doesn't want to foot the bill for doing things the right way.

[blackford76]

I've changed a cutting edge or two over the years. Carbide will spark, so will two rocks. Doesn't alter the fact that CDOT is a huge waste. The plow in front, blade 3 feet in the air, dumping rock like he is getting paid by the load, the dip-shit following him blade down, saving his load for traction wieght.
The CDOT yard 1/2 way down Crow Hill is a perfect example. After the snow melts try going down the hill. You will catch air, because every tard left the yard on max dump, and they have left a 8" berm across the hiway.
CDOT S.O.P. "the sun will come out eventually and melt this shit, lets just drive around and see how many accidents we can cause"