Match attendance, web sight, what else to fix?

[dvc]

The little poll on the general competetion forum showed only the crappy websight and the lack of ranges as the problems with FRIDPA, and Tom Freeman had some great observations about other culprits. Our last Clear Creek match had only 16 shooters.

So, we have a new websight. I have tried some searches, and I am finding it easier and easier to stumble into info on FRIDPA. As far as there not being enough ranges, I can't agree because we can't even fill the two we have. So here is the question and the crux of my post: what do we do now? What is the next step in fixing this thing and getting participation back up to a reasonable leveL (which I will arbitrarily define as, say 30-40 like it was a couple of years ago). In addition to new shooters, we have dozens if not hundreds of experienced shooters who are now staying away in droves. We have a mostly new board, we have several very "new people oriented" shooters such as Tom, and the politics seems to be calming down.

So what is it? Is it the stages? Is is holdover from all of the strife? I wonder if we need to do a little marketing. The BOD can't do it all, would the general membership be willing to ask thier Gun dealers of choice to hand out cards or flyers with gun purchases or something of that nature? What about a gun show booth? Would that even help?

I worry that at the current participation level, CCCSC is going to decide that we are not bringing in enough revenue to justify the range time. Within the bounds of constructive criticism, I think a little brainstorming would be healthy. BTW, it was good to see you back at the CC FRIDPA match, Tom.

-Matt Freeman, FRIDPA BOD

[un-tactical]

One thing that would be helpful is putting the class schedule up front. I've a few friends who were interested up until I told them about the required class, which we could never find.

[cheapo]

I agree. Knowing when the class is, how much it costs, how long it is, will someone be able to compete the same day as the class, etc would be helpful to new shooters.

I also think that 16 at CC for January isn't too bad. Many IDPA folks are 'fair weather' shooters. How many January's in the past several years have we even had a IDPA match in January?

Having flyers available at as many CCW classes as you can find will increase IDPA matches. Granted IDPA is a 'game' but any new CCW holder will be able to improve their skills by participating. It would be good to appoach new shooters that way, that it will improve their skills.

my 2 cents.

Maybe 16 in Jan. isn't that bad (although Pueblo's Jan. match was at least twice that size) but our matches have been averaging maybe 20 shooters for a while now, and almost all new people (not that there is anything wring w/ new people, but I think a mix with more experience helps everyone). So the January match specifically was not my point. In general, we are not getting very good turnouts. I think the point about tracking down the safety class is a valid one; I remember how hard it was for me.

[DanaT]

How to get more participation. That is a very good question.

One thing that I want to point out is that you give away C-notes to all shooters and it wouldn't change some things. For instance, my work schedule has me travelling alot at the moment. In fact I just got back from a 3 week trip with 2 of those weeks being in Europe. Basically, if I am travelling for work, I can't attend no matter how good things are.

To take that a step further, if I know I will be away from the family for a period of time, the weekend before and after are also normally tied up with family stuff.

So, I point this out because some things people will choose over a hobby.

Drawing more people is hard. You have to do it by word of mouth. Getting rid of the polical strife will help a lot.

What I think would be good (although not really liked) is more classifier matches. Why? They are a standard to judge yourself against. Am I improving?

Another thing that I personally think would be good (although who/what/when/where/why/how are the problems) would be "workshops". It is one thing to participate, but to get good typically coaching helps. It kind of like the "tacitcal" schools but modified to be 1) in the area 2) catered twoards IPDA 3) reasonable priced.

Kind of a knock-off of this is to do a "buddy-system" where less experienced shooters team up with more experienced shooters to get pointers/advice from the more experienced guys.

As far as the matches go, I think breaking up into smaller groups so there is more trigger time and less waiting time helps. The blind stages are fun, but limit them. They take a long time.

I like BUG gun matches too. Maybe let people run the complete match with a BUG instead of a regular pistol? I know it would have to be broken up separating pistols from revolvers but maybe it would work. The nice thing with a complete BUG match is it encourages people use CCW weapons that they may actually carry. And let them use them as they carry them! I dont carry 5 rounds in the mag and then a pocket-full of loose bullets. I carry a loaded full mag with a loaded full mag backup! I would be easy just to have "BUG" along with SSP, etc.

I guess what I like is to 1) get better 2) get input on how to get better 3) have some measure to show I am getting better 4) to use real world equipment and 5) to have fun.

Maybe I have given some ideas...

-Dana

[thenewguy]

Hey matt,
I used to shoot with FRIDPA every 2nd saturday, but I've stayed away because of other commitments. Another reason is the traffic during ski season and the cold mornings there before the sun comes up over the hill. When the weather warms and I can get away, I'll be there.

[bbadmin]

Proud to be hosting the new FRIDPA web page!


Anyway, most of the guys I know have issues on Sundays and will never be able to shoot on Sundays. At least not in the AM. After lunch maybe. That and there is no IDPA stuff going on in Colo. Spgs. We can drive to Pueblo, but by the time we got there on Sundays it would be really late.

We need a range and opportunity to shoot on Saturdays. That wouldn't solve the whole attendance issue, but it would certainly help.



.

[Colorado Osprey]

Years ago I looked into joining, but because of mine any many others I know work schedule weekends are a no go.
I wish sometime that people would remember that 45-55% of the working public do not get weekends off.

The problem with people who work weekends is that you have no way to tell which week days that most have off. Unfortunately, that other 50% of people who can't make weekends is spread between those 5 other days.

Perposed: Maybe one weekday a month and people can schedule their work schedules around to attend? Who knows it might work.

[Mule]

Well, as a newbie, I can add a couple things here.

1st. The fact that nobody knows about you.
I found out about the IDPA and joined it before I ever knew you guys were here. When I mentioned the IDPA at a local store, the clerk said I should check out IPSC instead. He shoots it himself. I don't know how to get info out other than getting some of the sales people informed. Hold an event for them! Give them free range time, but don't do anything above what a normal shoot consists of. Is the local gun shops and sporting good stores open to having flyers in their stores? When I did the CCW class, there was no other info available.

2nd. Have some more pictures on the web page to get people interested. I like to see what I am getting into, I had one heck of a time getting over that not knowing paranoia. The whole page is secretive. Go look at the N. CO club's page.

Push some bonuses to being in IDPA and not some ot the other orgs.
The fact that I can shoot my $429.00 XD-40 with others in the same price range and NOT shooting $2000.00 pimped out guns is comforting.
I walked on with shaking hands from being nervous. Granted, Susan was great at makeing me feel welcome. The rest of the people were very friendly too. It's a good group of people to hang out with for 4 hours. After the first stage, the positive atmosphere took any worries away of bing in the wrong club.

I like the idea of having a week day shoot. After work type thing???? But, it's hard for those of us who work South of Denver to get to CCCSC very quickly. Some low light sims would be great.

On other thing, I think people would like to see some How To type clinics or practice techniques. What about having a stage that incorporates a specific technique. IE foot work - side step - 360 degree response, Close Contact Position. It's a BIG draw for new CCW recruits like my brother and I AND the 20+ people that were in our class.


Ok, so that was more than a couple things. I'm going on vacation tomorrow and I think my brain has left me already. Work? what work?

Greg

[Mule]

PS,
I can't shoot on Sundays either.

[Hoser]

We try to get the word out. Really we do. Fixing the crappy website helped a little I hope. Some gunshops really look down on IDPA and IPSC. I dont know why. Pueblo IPSC, IDPA and 3-Gun has done the flyer thing and gunshow table thing in the past. Was not that successful.

We are going to try to take some pics and get them up, but a lot of times its hard cause I and most staff guys end up on a timer or a clipboard. I hardly get to enjoy shooting sometimes as I am just trying to keep things moving along safe and steady. Our webmaster has a job that keeps him busy, so we hate to make the site too much of a time hog.

IDPA does indeed push the you dont need a $2K gun to compete. However, please remember there are different divisions in IDPA and IPSC/USPSA. If you go to an IPSC match with your XD, you are *NOT* competing against a pimped out $2-3K optically sighted, 29 round, open class pistola. You would be shooting in Production division, IPSC version of SSP. The current US champ is shooting a almost stock Glock 34, and a G-17 when he shoots outside the US.

The after work or during the week thing is tough. Someone has to set stuff up and take it down. Huge time killer. We shoot Wed afternoon/evening steel matches in Pueblo. I get there around 3:00 and get home well after dark most times. Its a lot of work for 10-15 shooters.

The skills issue should be tested every match. Sometimes its not as evident as some, but they all test a different skill. Not just drawing and blazing away. Its has to be fun and safe above all else. Its a fine line to walk with stage design. Too hard, people wont like it and might not come back. Too easy and the better shooters get bored and dont come back. thats why we try to mix it up. Some skills cant be tested in a match. They have to be done in a class type environment. We try to dance around retention shooting as safely as we can, same with shooting while retreating.

The Sunday thing is a killer for a lot of people. But the scheduling thing is up to the host range, not us. We are there because they let (charge) us. I tried to get a Saturday for IDPA and was told flat out, no. No more matches. Club members dont like the fact matches are there taking up space on their berms.

[Mule]

I had a guy that shoots IPSC tell me that if I did go to a IPSC match, I would be shooting aginst guys w/ $2K guns. That's why I never looked into it.

It is tough to keep it down the middle of the skills.
I was envolved in a large 4x4 club here in Denver. Any time I lead trails or we had our yearly event, it was a challenge to offer everyone something they wanted.

As for ranges. It might be a good idea to talk to the guy that owns the land where the range is East of Brighton. He lets others use the range other than the club. I have his info if you want it, email me. He talked about putting in a combat training range elsewhere on his property. Really nice guy too!

Last Saturday was put together very well, every stage was a different thing and made people think.

Greg

[JohnTRourke]

FNG here
The wife and I both want to get into different games, but it's hard, the whole paranoia will I screw up thing. (although it never turns out that way, it's hard to get over that)
Sundays are tough, but honestly that's the biggest draw day for any range, so I think there is nothing you can do about that.
instead of flyers, work with a local gun store and say "here, with any new pistol bought, give them this coupon" and the coupon is for a free entry fee and has all the information on it.
this costs the gun store owner nothing and adds extra value to their selling so it's a plus for them.
This coupon has all the contact information, etc. website, phone numbers, emails, ask any questions, etc
Boom, you get your name and contact info out there for free and people see it as a value.
You have to take a class????????

oh, get rid of the tactical reload, dumb dumb dumb, it's just not going to happen, and personally I think it kills IPDA. But that's just me and I'm FNG so feel free to ignore me. :-)

[Mule]

Not a four hour thing. From what I saw in other posts it wsa done at one time....
We did the 30 minute Safety class. How not to get into trouble (look like a complete bafoon) - not to shoot someone or get kicked out of the range. Basic rules, commands ect. Very helpfull in telling me what was expected.

I like the idea of the coupon thing, I would have been all over that one.
Greg

[Hoser]

I had a guy that shoots IPSC tell me that if I did go to a IPSC match, I would be shooting aginst guys w/ $2K guns.
He is an idiot and should be beat. I shoot a little IPSC. In fact, I used to be the IPSC section coordinator for the state for a couple of years, was the Pueblo IPSC Club president from 1998-2004, and have been the IPSC State Match Match director three times and shoot IPSC for the Air Force Shooting Team.

There has always been different divisions in IPSC, well after 1993 that is. Thats when red dot scopes, high cap guns and the 38 Super started taking over. Shortly after that, Tactical/Limited Class was born. Now there is Open, Limited, Limited 10, Single Stack, Revolver and Production divisions.

The source for a lot of bad info on IDPA and IPSC is gunstore commandos and gun rags like American Handgunner.


oh, get rid of the tactical reload, dumb dumb dumb, it's just not going to happen, and personally I think it kills IPDA. But that's just me and I'm FNG so feel free to ignore me. :-)
I dont care for it either. We try to leave it up to the shooter to pick his reload when we call for a mandatory reload. Either Tactical or reload with retention. For what its worth, the RWR is always faster and easier.

Your first match is the hardest. You dont know many people, there is so many rules, you dont want to screw up and be laughed at, ect. We all had our first match. Just to help get people out, we dont charge a dime for your first match.

Your ideas for handing out flyers is great. I like the coupon idea. However, it all comes down to time. All of us that run the show are volunteers. Between work, kids, ect, some things just cant get done. Not an excuse, just a reason why sometimes not everything gets done. Now that I am back stateside, I have some time off from the military. Let me put some new flyers together and see if I can start getting them out again.

[JohnTRourke]

[quote=JohnTRourke]oh, get rid of the tactical reload, dumb dumb dumb, it's just not going to happen, and personally I think it kills IPDA. But that's just me and I'm FNG so feel free to ignore me. :-)
I dont care for it either. We try to leave it up to the shooter to pick his reload when we call for a mandatory reload. Either Tactical or reload with retention. For what its worth, the RWR is always faster and easier.
quote]

What is a Reload with retention??????

[Hoser]

What is a Reload with retention??????
Take the mag out of the gun, put it in a pocket, and insert a new mag.

Here is a video of Steve Broom doing both. http://www.doublealpha.biz/images/mikael_vieira.jpg Steve had just moved to Pueblo before he died suddenly in early 2005. We competed and practiced together often. He was a good man.

[JohnTRourke]

realizing this is getting off track, why would you put it in your pocket?
IT'S EMPTY
the only thing more useless than an unloaded gun is an empty magazine.
Seriously, this rationale I gotta hear.

[Hoser]

Ahhh grasshopper. You are in need of a rulebook. www.idpa.com has a link to it.

Here is the deal. Empty mags are worthless and can be tossed on the ground. Mags with ammo left in them are required to be retained somehow, just in case you need that ammo later.

So, if you want to do a reload and the mag still has ammo in it, you have a choice. Tac reload or RWR.

If you have a jam, you can ditch the possibly bad mag and ammo.

(in IPSC you just reload whenever you want and do whatever you want with the mag.)

[PaulHyder]

realizing this is getting off track, why would you put it in your pocket?
IT'S EMPTY
the only thing more useless than an unloaded gun is an empty magazine.
Seriously, this rationale I gotta hear.

Gosh I hate to get into the tactical reload discussion but the rule for what to do with an empty magazine if you aren't at slidelock actually is based on logic:

You weren't at slide lock and >chose< to reload. Why on earth would you look at the magazine at all. (The bad guys are elsewhere.)

Of course the early tactical journal discussion ended up pointing out that this rule was part of the set to limit the potential for gaming.
Paul

[SigsRule]

Getting back to the original point of this thread, getting more shooters out. I'm a consultant and also travel a lot. I'm either returning from a trip or stuck in some ungodly place over the weekend many of the 2nd Saturdays so I've missed more matches than I've made. The April match was my first in a long time. I have slightly more flexibility now and hope to make more in the future. Now to the suggestions.

1) I personally hope to shoot at home more often and will always try to talk my shooting friends into coming along. If everybody did that the attendance should go up.

2) For newbies, I suggest that you point them to one of the excellent books on tactical shooting. The one by Gabe Suarez gives step by step instructions for practicing presenting from a draw, dry fire practice, etc. I followed the instructions and did a lot of dry fire practice before my 2nd and subsequent matches. It removed a lot of apprehension about gun handling and looking like a dufuss. The other thing is shooting your first match in a very friendly enviornment. I was lucky in shooting my first match in that kind of environment in Houston before I discovered FRIDPA. From what I've seen, our matches at CCCSC are also that kind of environment.

3) I think posting pictures is a wonderful idea. As a semi-professional photographer with a digital camera and a lot of lenses, I'd be glad to take pictures at our matches (the ones I'm able to attend) for the website.

4) Along the same lines, a short video showing an average shooter completing a simple stage would also help beginners get over the initial apprehension.

I'm thinking about shooting IPSC just to get more trigger time, but I'm having the same apprehension because I just don't know - how it differs from IDPA, what the rules are, who the shooters are, etc. It's easy to see how a beginner would be terrified unless they're dragged to a IDPA match by a fellow shooter.

Ray

[Mule]

I got the second of Gabe's books, it IS a great help! I wish I had it before the first match, but that's ok.

I like SigsRule's idea of a video too.
From my perspective, that would give a lot of uncertain people a big boost in confidence for that first shoot. There is no longer a mystery.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. The CCCS group was very friendly, helpful and understanding.
Greg

[newracer]

One thing that would be helpful is putting the class schedule up front. I've a few friends who were interested up until I told them about the required class, which we could never find.I still cannot find info on the class. [poke]

[Hoser]

I still cannot find info on the class.
What exactly would you like to know? You have come to the right place... For what its worth, the new shooters safety class is offered before every match as long as you tell us you are going to be there.

http://www.coloradoshooting.org/FRIDPA/FRIDPA_NewShooters.htm has a little tidbit about the class, but it does need updating. I will try and get our webmaster update it.

[newracer]

.... the new shooters safety class is offered before every match as long as you tell us you are going to be there.
That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks.

[newracer]

How much ammo is used during a typical day?

[Hoser]

How much ammo is used during a typical day?I recommend bringing no less than 150 rounds. You can always take it home if you dont use it.

Bring as many mags as you own. No less than three. The more you have, the easier it is. I bring a dozen and load them all up driving to the match. I usually dont have to deal with loading mags all day.

[SigsRule]

Gee, I can barely load my mags when sitting still, let alone driving. [roll]

I did get one of those loading tools and it helps a lot trying to cram that eight round into my Sig P220 magazines.

Seriously though, I have 11 magazines (I know it's a wierd number) and preload all of them before the match. At 8 rounds per magazine that's 88 rounds and it's rare that I have to load up any more during the match. Although, I'm pretty parsimonious about the number of rounds sent downrange unlike some of the shooters - I treat the shoots as practice for a real life encounter and don't want to waste any rounds.

[SigsRule]

Walking the talk, I'll be bringing a friend to the next Clear Creek match for his very first IDPA shoot. He'll need to attend the safety course that morning and we'll plan to be there at 0730.

[Hoser]

I will be at the Dean Williams Benefit Match at Highlands Ranch, otherwise I would be there.

Have fun, pet Mollie for me.

[SigsRule]

My friends opted out of trying to shoot (a wise choice as it turns out because they're not that comfortable with their weapons yet), but they did show up to observe and went away chomping at the bit to get into IDPA themselves. They live in Florida but are planning to move to Colorado within the next year.

BTW, I enjoyed the stages and shot better than I have in ages. Guess I'm finally getting used to the new shooting glasses with different prescriptons in each eye.

Ray

[kevinpagano]

Hello everyone. I have not looked at IDPA in a couple years. I been shooting IPSC have grown somewhat uninterested. The improvements to the web site etc are great so far. Tom, Tim's seems like you guys are doing a great job. I will tell you the one thing that made me lose interest.

1. The lack of a bigger match anywhere close to Colorado. I love practicing and shooting and preparing for a big match. I know this takes alot of work. I helped put one on when I was in Utah. The last state match that we had here from what I remember was a great success at least from my opinion.

2. I also think we need another club to shoot at to possibly bring members of those clubs interest up in the sport. I am a member at Ben Lomand and think that would be a great in between place for a match.

I will be at a match soon. Look forward to seeing all of you guys and gals.

Kevin

[SigsRule]

welcome to the community. BTW, where is Ben Lomand?

[kevinpagano]

it is about 10 miles east of calhan or out past Elizabeth a ways. Probably 45 min or an hour from you. Great range lots of berms, and there is a IPSC club shooting there. I like shooting out there cause not an issue for getting on a berm for practice.

Kevin

[Mule]

I have a new one to add.

There is "seemingly" no real group/club. I realize there is a group of people that shoot at one or both of the two monthly matches. BUT, no membership, no feeling of belonging to something real. Even if membership is free per se. It's hard to feel connected or excited about something that doesn't really have an existing body of members.... Do you understand what I am trying so terribly to say?????

I managed to join CCCSC last night and was talking to Tom P. and another new member that shoot IPSIC. I got interested just because they are more of a club and are more "official". I really can't make Sunday matches, so it's not very likely I will ever attend an event. Butttttttt

Anyway, if the FRIDPA would have an actual membership roster, I think it might boost the post count. I mean attendance..... LOL

Greg