View Full Version : New nut case control laws needed instead of gun control
I read an article in a news paper today that struck a nerve. The topic was about increased gun control needed in the midst of the shooting of the congress woman. The basic point of the writer was that we should have more stringent gun control to eliminate the legality of a citizen to buy or own semiautomatic firearms. Their stance was that there was no good “Reason” why someone would need a semiautomatic weapon so it should be illegal to buy or own one.
I know that gun control has been beat to death based on opinions and facts from both sides of the argument, so I am not going to get into that. The thing that I fail to understand is why people continually think that applying additional rules or laws to further restrict the choices of upstanding sane people is going to make a difference in what law breaking or insane people do. Law breaking or insane people only adhere to whatever THEY feel is right or wrong. They could give a crap about what others think.
The other thing that really grates on me is that most people blame the tool used in an incident verses the individuals choice to do bad things with whatever tool they used. “If Johnny didn’t have a gun he wouldn’t have gone crazy and killed that person”…..WHAT???!!! That makes no sense at all. Johnny is crazy and would have used a #2 pencil to stab someone to death if that was the only tool he had to use. If someone is hell bent on attacking or killing someone else the tool they use has very little to do with detouring their intended actions.
I just don’t understand how the vast majority of people in this world focus on the wrong thing. “Johnny” is the deadly weapon set loose on society, not what’s in his hands as he is committing his acts of terror.
The other thing that I don’t understand is that people are always surprised when the next nut case comes out of their hiding place and does something tragic. There will always be the next nut case as its statistically impossible to not have a certain percentage of humans in this world turn out to be nut cases. Nut cases will always be part of society so why don’t we focus on “Fixing” the nut cases verses creating more restrictive laws that apply to everyone?
Oh well, sorry about the rant. The ignorance of what is presented in modern media astounds me some times and I have to say something.
A while back I worked with a guy from tennessee, as big of a hick as hick can be.
ever see king of the hill? know that toon on the show called boomhauer? I shit you not this guy sounded exactly like him when he talked.
tried to talk guns with him and was surprised to find that he didn't like them or own any, and didn't think anybody else should be allowed to.
his reason?
he said that if he owned a gun he didn't think he'd be able to not get mad and shoot someone with it.
Elhuero> No problem with that. At least he is smart enough to make the right choice in not owning a gun because he knows that he wouldn't be able to control himself when he got mad if he did.
I know a couple guys like that.
Elhuero> No problem with that. At least he is smart enough to make the right choice in not owning a gun because he knows that he wouldn't be able to control himself when he got mad if he did.
True, but he thought all guns should be banned for the same reason.
he was sure that there were people out there crazier than he and didn't want them to do the same thing.
Inspector Fowler
01-12-2011, 20:12
I think that a lot of it is that in these days you're not allowed to "label" people. I work up at CSU and it is always surprising to me how hesitant people - students, faculty, and staff - are to address it when somebody is having substantial mental problems. They don't want to get somebody in trouble, or be accused of labeling somebody.
I also think that as the national population density increases people with mental problems are increasingly forced into much closer proximity with others where decades ago they might have lived with fewer stimuli to make their problems worse.
the gun control crazies are just that, crazy.
this guy would not have been stopped. he was a loner, a loser, a pot smoker, a conspiracy theorist, a drop out, and couldn't get in the .mil. the guy was an absolute failure.
he would have got his drug dealer to get him a gun. we would have got a gun no matter what. he could have got ammo just as easy.
thinking more gun control is going to equal out to less crime and less murders and deaths is just another farce that has been proven over and over, especially with clintons AWB. even the gun control advocates somewhat understand this.
there has been way too many positives for the pro-2nd crowd in the last few years, even with a democratic controlled house senate and white house to have anything too serious even have a chance to make it to a vote. what that tells me is the supreme court is one of the most important places we need to have a majority. 2nd is that we need to keep the voice of the people free, keep on the elected officials and let them know we will not give up our rights. we will remove them from office, just as we did in 2010.
(R) King up in NY should be next on the list and needs to be removed next time the vote comes up. his bullshit elitist comments need to be taken seriously, not lightly. he is on the side of bloomberg, MAIG and the other gun control advocates that believe they are above the ordinary citizen. fuck them all.
1000' bubble around elected officials? ask Kennedy how that worked for him. Kennedy wasn't killed by a high cap mag gun, he wasn't killed with a semi-auto. yet those "evil" guns are on the hit list for the anti-gunners.
more ignorance in this world as a result of liberals.
theGinsue
01-12-2011, 22:23
I still contend that until you can remove the evil out of the hearts of people (never happen), we will always have violent crimes against others.
Why'd you put pot smoking on the list?
Troublco
01-12-2011, 22:50
So after they get done with the guns, they'll decide we don't need those evil assault baseball bats....then we won't need those wicked screwdrivers and CLAW HAMMERS!!! And we certainly have no need for an AXE!! Someone might get hurt! And all you golfers out there, you're just a problem waiting to happen...we might as well take care of your CLUBS preemptively...[ROFL1]
Ignorant power hungry elitist bas***ds.....ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
Why'd you put pot smoking on the list?
because he was a habitual user, not a casual smoker. I know those guys who smoke every once in a while and like them, they are normal. the ones who are high all the time are beyond gone and really fucked themselves up.
same with alcohol. you know the people who are constantly drunk and you don't want to be around them, typically violent. the casual drinker is usually fun. most guys on here drink on occasion but aren't raging alcoholics.
big difference between use and abuse. this guy abused and even his friends said so.
theGinsue
01-13-2011, 00:15
So after they get done with the guns, they'll decide we don't need those evil assault baseball bats....then we won't need those wicked screwdrivers and CLAW HAMMERS!!! And we certainly have no need for an AXE!! Someone might get hurt! And all you golfers out there, you're just a problem waiting to happen...we might as well take care of your CLUBS preemptively...[ROFL1]
Ignorant power hungry elitist bas***ds.....ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!
There are plenty of nay sayers who would disagree with this and say it's too far fetched and could never happen and that it's just an exaggerated/paranoid fear of gun owners.
Of course, I believe they felt the same way in the UK where many of the items you've listed are now illegal since guns were banned but the criminals still figured out how to commit violent acts on innocent people without guns. Crime is way up in the UK and the use of non-firearm items to commit violent acts is well documented.
because he was a habitual user, not a casual smoker. I know those guys who smoke every once in a while and like them, they are normal. the ones who are high all the time are beyond gone and really fucked themselves up.
same with alcohol. you know the people who are constantly drunk and you don't want to be around them, typically violent. the casual drinker is usually fun. most guys on here drink on occasion but aren't raging alcoholics.
big difference between use and abuse. this guy abused and even his friends said so.
Holy shit, I must have missed a lot, when did we start getting on smoking and drinking? Well shit, I guess we all know how quickly the subject changes around here huh? We should ban fat girls in tight cloths! 50 pounds of shit in a 10 pound bag is not good to look at.
Geology Rocks
01-13-2011, 08:26
I know that if my wife, who is a school teacher, says that a child needs help mentally/physically/educationally to the parents the school is on the hook for the bill until the child is released or cleared from whatever the needed help from in the beginning. Teachers as a whole are told specifically to never say anything as the school doesnt wanna pay for it all.
joe
I know that if my wife, who is a school teacher, says that a child needs help mentally/physically/educationally to the parents the school is on the hook for the bill until the child is released or cleared from whatever the needed help from in the beginning. Teachers as a whole are told specifically to never say anything as the school doesnt wanna pay for it all.
joe
If it is a public school, then you could substitute "the school" with "the local taxpayers." IMO we already pay a lot in taxes per student. How much more do we have to spend to make everyone healthy? How much do we have to spend to make everyone smart? How much more do we have to spend to make everyone equal? Let's make the question more broad. How much more do we have to spend to make everyone safe?
At least local governments, including school districts, can only spend what we give them. Let them print blank checks like the federal government. Look where that is taking us.
If it is a public school, then you could substitute "the school" with "the local taxpayers." IMO we already pay a lot in taxes per student. How much more do we have to spend to make everyone healthy? How much do we have to spend to make everyone smart? How much more do we have to spend to make everyone equal? Let's make the question more broad. How much more do we have to spend to make everyone safe?
At least local governments, including school districts, can only spend what we give them. Let them print blank checks like the federal government. Look where that is taking us.
This is just an experience based guess.
I've worked in a psych hospital and on an ambulance.
The people in question, those that would be put into a mental institution, rarely if ever, are able to contribute monitarily to society, in fact the drain on society is rather large from my experience. Look at it like this, you drive a dude to an ER on an ambulance where he then spends the night to "get out of the cold" "to be safe from the voices" "because he's too high" etc. and then is released. you are looking at a bill in the neighborhood of 10-20 K. paid for by the US tax payers. Said dude will do this again frequently, perhaps every night, and no one in that chain can say no. sound unrealistic, sadly I was on a first name basis with many of Tucson's psych patient frequent fliers, it is very common.
Other option, open a place for them to stay, long term. It keeps them safer, keeps the public safer and will in term, cost much, much less. A night in the psych hospital was several hundred dollars, and that was for highly acute patients who had many needs, for longer term, less intense care, it would be significantly less expensive. Still costly, but by comparison to the emergency medical system, it would be vastly cheaper' by my estimation. That's not to mention the significant benefits for quality of life for these people and safety for all involved. We had to release patients when their time was up, knowing full well they could barely get by and we would see them again, some violent, with worries for their family and friends.
$.02...you're welcome, even if you didn't want it!
I respect your experience and concur. I saw the same thing from the "street cop" perspective.
We already spend money on all of the things I mentioned in my last post. That is why I asked "how much more do we have to spend?" If I knew what the actual, full cost was going to be, then I could make an informed decision. In reality, we are shooting at a moving target.
Uh oh, a gun metaphor. Now I'm guilty of using heated rhetoric. I apologize to all those who are offended [Pepsi]
ChadAmberg
01-13-2011, 10:33
Maybe the 4473 form you must fill out needs to be changed.
"I’m sorry, we can’t sell you a firearm. You’ve checked here you voted for democratic candidates, and thus you fit the psychological profile of a mass murderer."
Why is it accepted that everyone is entitled to unlimited attempts at getting help? This on top of there being zero negative cost to the abuser?
How about this, you get three changes to leverage the "System" for help. On the third chance, your get a finger cut off. Then your Chances start over. Every third chance you get another finger cut off. This at least puts a very real and personal price to being a habitual fuck up.
You could even start by cutting off their trigger finger so the Gun Control people wouldn't have a leg to stand on when they blame firearms as the root cause of all evil.
I don't know if you can tell but I have zero remorse for the people that bleed our system dry without providing any positive input [Mad]
Waiting for the "you're a cold hearted bastard" people to chime in.
I completely agree with you Cha-Lee. I've said for a long time we need to go to a "three strikes and your out" program. Fourth strike and you get a bullet to the head. One or two examples to be made and our society would be a lot more pleasant to live in in about a week.
But for most heinous crimes it should be instant.
You murdered someone purposely? Boom.
I'm sorry, you "accidently killed" her when she fought back due to you mugging her? Boom.
etc.
Sometimes there should not be more "do-overs". Look at some of the scum that Ritter pardoned/commuted during his last few days in office for examples.
I'm sorry, if you have just crashed your car into someone else without a license, while hammered, after flunking out of court ordered rehab, after your 3rd DUI, you're not going to get to go home for dinner. Ever.
While we're at it, let's make prisons prisons again. Hard, productive labor paid @ $2.00 an hour, less the actual cost of incarceration. No TV, no conjugal visits, no electric lights, no "good time" sentence reductions.No "minimum security". If prisons were less like country clubs and more like punishment, perhaps there would be more incentive for criminals to avoid them. Join or participate in a gang in prison? Welcome to 24 hour lockdown in solitary. Same for starting a fight or assaulting a guard. Plus years on your sentence. Make the prisoners pay their way. Chain gangs seem to work in Maricopa county, why not elsewhere?
We'll never be able to weed out the whackos, and experience in other countries has shown that if they can't get a gun, they'll use a knife, or an axe, or a club, or a fire....
/rambling rant
...
I'm sorry, if you have just crashed your car into someone else without a license, while hammered, after flunking out of court ordered rehab, after your 3rd DUI, you're not going to get to go home for dinner. Ever.
While we're at it, let's make prisons prisons again. Hard, productive labor paid @ $2.00 an hour, less the actual cost of incarceration. No TV, no conjugal visits, no electric lights, no "good time" sentence reductions.No "minimum security". If prisons were less like country clubs and more like punishment, perhaps there would be more incentive for criminals to avoid them. Join or participate in a gang in prison? Welcome to 24 hour lockdown in solitary. Same for starting a fight or assaulting a guard. Plus years on your sentence. Make the prisoners pay their way. Chain gangs seem to work in Maricopa county, why not elsewhere?
We'll never be able to weed out the whackos, and experience in other countries has shown that if they can't get a gun, they'll use a knife, or an axe, or a club, or a fire....
/rambling rant
+1000
Sometimes there should not be more "do-overs". Look at some of the scum that Ritter pardoned/commuted during his last few days in office for examples.
I'm sorry, if you have just crashed your car into someone else without a license, while hammered, after flunking out of court ordered rehab, after your 3rd DUI, you're not going to get to go home for dinner. Ever.
While we're at it, let's make prisons prisons again. Hard, productive labor paid @ $2.00 an hour, less the actual cost of incarceration. No TV, no conjugal visits, no electric lights, no "good time" sentence reductions.No "minimum security". If prisons were less like country clubs and more like punishment, perhaps there would be more incentive for criminals to avoid them. Join or participate in a gang in prison? Welcome to 24 hour lockdown in solitary. Same for starting a fight or assaulting a guard. Plus years on your sentence. Make the prisoners pay their way. Chain gangs seem to work in Maricopa county, why not elsewhere?
We'll never be able to weed out the whackos, and experience in other countries has shown that if they can't get a gun, they'll use a knife, or an axe, or a club, or a fire....
/rambling rant
I would like to add if a person is in for a life sentence without parole and it is undeniable evidence and the person is truly guilty then they should receive the death sentence...immediately. no waiting. Just walk out to the spot. Ban. Done.
I would like to add if a person is in for a life sentence without parole and it is undeniable evidence and the person is truly guilty then they should receive the death sentence...immediately. no waiting. Just walk out to the spot. Ban. Done.
This,, And consecutive life sentances or even 100+ years in prison.
If what they did was bad enough to warrent 3-400 years in prison, well then, maybe it was bad enough to assume room temp as quick as possible..
While we're at it, let's make prisons prisons again. Hard, productive labor paid @ $2.00 an hour, less the actual cost of incarceration. No TV, no conjugal visits, no electric lights, no "good time" sentence reductions.No "minimum security". If prisons were less like country clubs and more like punishment, perhaps there would be more incentive for criminals to avoid them. Join or participate in a gang in prison? Welcome to 24 hour lockdown in solitary. Same for starting a fight or assaulting a guard. Plus years on your sentence. Make the prisoners pay their way. Chain gangs seem to work in Maricopa county, why not elsewhere?
Prisons are way too easy on the people in them. They should be a place in which you do not want to go to, ever. My brother (actual brother) has been in and out since he was 18. I think he is on his 5th felony... He explained it almost as a frat house. They have more in prison than a lot of people working their asses off trying to make ends meet. It is pathetic. I think they can sleep on the floor instead of a bed. They can shit in a hole instead of a nice shiney shitter. Instead of TV, they can stare at the cracks in their wall getting bigger over time. The only fresh air they need is when the little door opens to give them their one meal of mush served in a bowl at the end of the day in their cell. That would be perfectly fine I think.
Byte Stryke
01-13-2011, 14:03
I agree with the fact that crazy shits hell bent on killing people will always find a way.
if the cannot acquire a firearm, it is probable they will use a hammer or a knife or a bat, or fire.
then it will fall to hammer, Knife, Bat or fire control advocates.
Lets clean our yard and make sure our fences are in order.
Make the drug and psychological lists work the same way the CBI Felony lists do.
I Understand they will still break the law to get a gun. and maybe then the soft hearted bleeding liberals will understand the saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
In the mean-time we scramble around trying to rearrange deck chairs on the titanic because we aren't addressing the cause of the problem. We don't need more laws. we need the laws we have to work.
before anyone can quote this they must first explain how someone deemed mentally defective by the US Army, and with an arrest record for drugs legally purchased a fucking firearm.
The system we have is broken, fix what we have before we add more to it!
I completely agree with you Cha-Lee. I've said for a long time we need to go to a "three strikes and your out" program. Fourth strike and you get a bullet to the head. One or two examples to be made and our society would be a lot more pleasant to live in in about a week.
But for most heinous crimes it should be instant.
You murdered someone purposely? Boom.
I'm sorry, you "accidently killed" her when she fought back due to you mugging her? Boom.
etc.
I agree completely. One 45 or whatever to the head and be done with it.
Troublco
01-13-2011, 23:00
I know that if my wife, who is a school teacher, says that a child needs help mentally/physically/educationally to the parents the school is on the hook for the bill until the child is released or cleared from whatever the needed help from in the beginning. Teachers as a whole are told specifically to never say anything as the school doesnt wanna pay for it all.
joe
The schools will deliberately not mention things, even if they have the legal obligation to handle those issues. They will deny services that are not only needed but that they are legally obligated to support, and force the parents to pursue legal action before they will agree to do what they are supposed to anyway. And then, they'll get the judge to slap a gag on it. Anyone who thinks I'm kidding, I'm not, nor am I exaggerating. Schools will STILL also cover up abuse, and make a real show out of so-called "bullyproofing"; but it's just a big bunch of smoke and mirrors. And I'm talking about a district that's supposed to be one of the best, if not the best, in the state.
And another little tidbit for you. If you find that the school district was negligent regarding anything, let's say that you found that your child was being abused by another and the multiple staff members (a minimum of 3 and max of 6 in the room at any given time for special needs students, for no more than 18 students in this particular case) not only knew about it, and ignored it, but made up excuses when you go to meetings with them to try to figure out what's going on - then, you have 60 days to file suit. 60 days! So make sure you know that BEFORE you have a problem, because otherwise by the time you find out it'll be too late. Even if you have them admitting all sorts of things ON TAPE. That is the statute of limitations in Colorado for that sort of thing. Go check it out yourself if you don't believe me. I have all sorts of interesting little bits of knowledge in this area. Don't ask me how I know.
Rant over...[Bang]
Sixteen minutes later, at 10:10 a.m., Loughner opened fire, gravely wounding Giffords and killing six, including one of her aides, a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl, sheriff's officials say.
According to sheriff's officials, Loughner bought a Glock 9mm handgun on Nov. 30.
At 10:11 a.m., 911 dispatchers received calls that there had been gunfire at a Safeway. Four minutes later, a sheriff's deputy arrived at the shopping center and detained Loughner. Medical personnel, including paramedics, showed up minutes later.
About 10:41 a.m., Giffords was transported to University Medical Center, roughly 8 miles away. Doctors have said she was in an operating room 38 minutes after the shooting began.
Two things struck me in this timeline just released by Pima County.
One: four minutes is a long time to wait for the police to show up. It is actually a pretty good response time for the police. If it was late at night or out in the boonies, it could be a lot longer.
Second: 38 minutes from shooting to surgery. What a country! I don't believe she got faster service because of who she is. The emergency medical system in this country is one of the most amazing things I've ever witnessed. When you go overseas and see people who may never see a doctor or health care provider and then return here to see anyone and everyone being seen at all hours of the day and night...
It makes me wonder who believed any of that Michael Moore health care in Cuba garbage?
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