Self defense load characteristics

[michael_aos]

Disregarding caliber specifics. Not the "9mm -vs- .45 ACP" discussion.

What you you suggest as a good self-defense (people) load, expressed as bullet-weight x velocity / power-factor / ft-lbs of energy?

Examples:

125gr x 1000fps = 125 PF = 277.5 fp/e
170gr x 900fps = 153 PF = 305.69 fp/e
200gr x 1000fps = 200 PF = 444.0 fp/e
230gr x 800fps = 184 PF = 326.78 fp/e

I'm kind of thinking anything around 300 fp/e would be fine.

What do you feel would make an ideal self-defense combination?

Mike

[Colorado Osprey]

I'm a believer in Massad Ayoob teachings in self defense.

Largest caliber in the heaviest lead faced bullet you can handle in a given firearm under stress.
To some that is a .22lr to some that is a .500S&W.

My personal is a 200 grain at 1300ft/sec. More and I become recoil sensative. Less and I feel it's not enough from me.

[michael_aos]

My personal is a 200 grain at 1300ft/sec.

Now we're talking ~750 ft/lbs of mechanical energy.

Maybe for the outdoors, but isn't that a bit much for a typical urban encounter that takes place at "conversation" distance?

What about overpentration? Followup shots? Flash?

Mike

[Zak Smith]

Wrong algorithm. There is no necessary correlation between terminal effects and momentum. Within the same bullet type/construction, it might be true, but it means nothing on its own.

A good JHP out of 9x19 or larger is good to go.

Worry less about load/caliber bullshit and more about mindset, tactics, and skill.

[Colorado Osprey]

Yes, what I shoot is overkill. I admit it. I've been shot by a 9x19 and I'm still here. In fact it didn't even penetrate the leather jacket I was wearing. Speaking of leather jackets, you need to keep in mind everyone isn't always walking around in a t-shirt and if some one is wearing heavy clothing, it really slows down pistol bullets.

Remember shot placement, and do shooting drills until the target is no longer a threat. It's amazing how many people will shoot, get a hit and stop. Keep shooting until a threat no longer is a threat. To an untrained civilian defending themselves this usually means empty your weapon into the target. This also helps substantiate the fact that they were a threat and you were in fear for your life.

Having recieved and I am trained for CQB and defensive shooting I could not get away with emptying my gun. This is why my personal gun might be a little overkill.

Overpenetration: Colorado Law protects those who are in law enforcement from prosecution from discharging their firearm in the line of duty. The burdon of a miss or a pass through falls on the perpatrator because they caused the law enforcement officer to discharge their weapon.

Follow up shots:Like I said before, it's what you can handle. I have no problem shooting a 10mm or a .357 mag. Some do, and they need to choose something lighter. Some can handle something bigger. I can't.

Flash: Anyone who shoots in selfdefense is not worried about muzzle flash...your not a sniper. Muzzle flash at night can actually aid you in your target picture to help line up the sites if you don't have night sites.

[michael_aos]

A good JHP out of 9x19 or larger is good to go.

Worry less about load/caliber bulletshit and more about mindset, tactics, and skill.

I agree with you.

I bought a lightweight .41 Magnum for hiking. The conventional "Internet wisdom" was that the .41 was the right minimum defensive cartridge for bear & lion.

I've also read of issues with crimp-jump on heavy .44 mag loads in lightweight revolvers.

So I figure if you've got to download .44 anyway, might as well go with a .41.

Now the question becomes, what's the "minimum" .41 load for outdoors?

And as long as I've got it, why not use it as a "car gun" when I'm not hiking?

So the next question, it's what's a minimum self-defense load in .41? I suspect even the lightest factory loads are more than I need.

Mike

[Zak Smith]

[quote=Zak Smith]
Now the question becomes, what's the "minimum" .41 load for outdoors?

3" magnum slugs, or 308 or 3006 FMJ for large things that want to eat you, a 9x19 for bad people.

[michael_aos]

3" magnum slugs, or 308 or 3006 FMJ for large things that want to eat you, a 9x19 for bad people.

And again. I agree. That's the correct answer.

But it seems like the whole PURPOSE of a handgun is for when a rifle isn't practical or available.

Honestly, I've never even SEEN anything camping or hiking to indicate bears or lions would be a problem.

Psychologically though, there's something reassuring about a large-caliber double-action revolver in the woods.

So if we say ~700 fp/e gets us to .357 / 10mm. And that's "not enough".
And we say the ~1200 fp/e of of .44 is too much.

We're probably looking at ~800+ fp/e minimum for .41. Any less, and you forfeit the advantage of .41.

Although perhaps the perceived recoil of a 180gr @ 1400fps is different than the perceived recoil of a 265gr @ 1150 fps?

Mike

[michael_aos]

I've read that when the .41 Magnum was first conceptualized, it was a 210gr @ 950 fps = 420 fp/e.

That reminds me of a .44 Special round.

Mike

[michael_aos]

I've found I really like the CCI Blazer 200gr GDHP .44 Special in my S&W Mountain Gun. I haven't run them over my chrono, but I'd expect ~850fps.

There's a Speer Gold Dot 210gr JHP in .41 Magnum, but the reviews suggest it's a LOT hotter than a .44 Special.

I bought a box of the Winchester 175gr Silvertip HP's in .41 Magnum but I haven't shot them yet.

Mike

[Marlin]

I bought a box of the Winchester 175gr Silvertip HP's in .41 Magnum but I haven't shot them yet.

Mike


If they are on par with, or a little hotter than the ones I shoot out of the 10MM You'll be quite happy I think. :D

[michael_aos]

I think the appeal of 9mm are the factors of bullet weight, construction, velocity and capacity, combined to form a very "shootable" platform.

I expect factory .41 Magnum loads have me "covered" with regard to self-defense in the woods.

What I'm really after are the characteristics that comprise a good self-defense (people) load. I'd like to use that information to roll-my-own .41 load so this revolver could double as a "car gun".

Mike

[michael_aos]

Any thoughts on how these 2 compare?

Hornady 210gr XTP JHP ($12.99/100)
Speer Gold Dot 210gr JHP ($15.99/100)

I'm initially hoping to drive these around ~850fps.

Mike

[Marlin]

I have tried the XTP's, in The 10MM, .45 Colt and .454 Casull, I have been very pleased with the result for all of them. I don't have any personal experiance with the Gold Dots, But I have relly heard or read anything negitive about them.

[michael_aos]

FYI, it seems lately I carry a Glock 34 w/124gr TAP in a thigh holster when camping. Especially at night.

That .41 Magnum really does carry great, but being on my belt makes layering a pain as the weather changes, or when donning a backpack with a waist-belt.

Mike

[car-15]

in my glock 32c I load my own, its a .357sig I use 7.6 grains of hodgdon hs-6 powder, 147 grain xtp hp's, for a velocity of around 1175 fps. as far as power factor, I dont know the math to get it, but I would not want to be on the recieving end of it :cool:

[michael_aos]

in my glock 32c I load my own, its a .357sig I use 7.6 grains of hodgdon hs-6 powder, 147 grain xtp hp's, for a velocity of around 1175 fps. as far as power factor, I dont know the math to get it, but I would not want to be on the recieving end of it :cool:

I get 450 fp/e.

That reminds me though. I've read that the original blackpowder lever-action designs were based on bottleneck cartridges. Seems like .357 Sig would be pretty cool in a lever-gun.

Mike