denial

[Natan706]

I was just denied my CCW in Arapahoe County, apparently out of state court cases that were dismissed, are reasons to deny. I was under the impression that you arent convicted until the case has been ruled upon. Apparently I was wrong. It wasnt a felony or anything, nor was it anything to do with domestic violence but they still saw fit to deny me. :x Wish I would have know that before I spent the $252.50 on the firearms class, CBI, and the payment for the sherrif to deny me. :roll: So I think its time to move. I wont live anywhere where I can't carry. Im thinking of moving to Washington state.

[rtr]

So what did you do in the dismissed cases?

What makes you think WA will issue to you?

[HunterCO]

First off you can request the reason for denial that is what I would do. I was charged with felony menacing and it was dismissed by the prossecution and never went to trial. I have a CCW permit I even obtained my permit back before it was shall issue and they gave me one. If you were never convicted under the new law they can not deny you based on that.

The first step is to find out on what grounds they denied you it could be a mistake. You also have the right to make the sheriffs dept. appear before a judge to explain the reason for the denial.

I will give you an example of what could have happend. My felony charge was reported to CBI. Guess what when the charges were dismissed that NEVER got reported. I waited over six months and nothing. I could not buy a gun because they would deny me when they did the background check. I had to go to the court house pull the court records take them to CBI to show them the charges were dismissed. It took them about a month to update the system and clear me to purchase a gun. Shortley after that I applied for my CCW permit. This could be what has happend with you it is very common for them to report what charges were filed against you yet they seem to get amnesia when reporting the outcome of the charges filled against you IF AND ONLY IF THEY ARE DISMISSED OR YOUR FOUND TO BE INNOCENT! If they would have found you guilty once again they would have made sure to report that. Funny how that works.

[kwando]

wow that sucks! what about getting a UT or FL ccw permit.

[KarlPMann]

No need, he can get one here sorta easy. He does have the right to an appeal. He WILL get it!!! They sometimes deny for strange reasons, then when reviewed, they see their mistake and correct it. Trust me, just appeal through the state. I hear it's pretty easy. Karl. :?

[Natan706]

I just noticed that I put court cases. It was just 1 case, sorry.

What happened was I was arrested for possesion of a controled substance in California. Which I dont even think at the time was a felony, I could be wrong though. Anyhow I was given the chance to do Diversion (deffered entry of judgement), which means that I had to plead guilty. The Judge then suspended the caseand my case remained open until successful completion of the program, then the trial resumed and the judge dismissed my case. It was also explained to me that by doing this it would make it as though I had never been arrested. BUT apparently thats not the case.
I was contacted by a Deputy last month and questioned about 2 of my answers on the CCW application. He said that he needed a written explanation of why I answered question:

#6 “Have you been convicted in any court of a felony, or attempt or conspiracy to commit a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?”

with a NO.
and question:

#8 “Are you an unlawful user or, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?”

which I also answered NO. Look Im not gonna lie here. I have done a few drugs back in the day. Who hasnt? But do I currently or have I within the last 4 years? No. I dont even smoke cigarettes anymore. ANYHOW...

I complied with his request and hand delivered it to him that day. He looked it over and basically dismissed it right there. He kept telling me that by making a guilty plead then I am automatically CONVICTED. And in his opinion I lied on my app.
A few weeks later I recieved a certified letter in the mail from them telling me that I was denied. Their reason was that I was arrested in 2002 for possesion of controled substance. It also states in the letter that they are aware that I was given differed judgement of entry and completed it successfully.

Guys Im not going to sit here and pretend I know anything about how the law works but according to a bunch of "law" websites I should have NO record.

I'm quoting www.drcrime.com/diversion.html

"Criminal record retention and disposition resulting from participation in deferred entry of judgement
Upon successful completion of the deferred entry of judgement program, the arrest upon which the judgement was deferred is considered to have never occurred. The defendant may respond to any questions concerning his/her prior criminal record that he/she was not arrested or granted deferred entry of judgement to the offense, except that the arrest may be disclosed by the Department of Justice in response to any peace officer application request, and he/she must disclose the arrest in response to any direct question contained in any questionnaire or application for a position as a peace officer as defined in P.C. 830.
If due to unsatisfactory conduct or performance in the program, defendant's plea of guilty is entered pursuant to P.C. 1000.3, it shall constitute a conviction. "

Am I reading this incorrectly?

Thanks for your time guys and please be honest.
If I AM wrong, I will accept it like a man.

[Natan706]

So what did you do in the dismissed cases?

What makes you think WA will issue to you?

I have friends and family up there. They dont scour your background to find any little piece of dirt that could disqualify you from carrying.

Here is washingtons CCW app. As you can see its VERY easy to get a CCW there.

ftp://ftp.owt.com/pub/bc/cpl%20application.pdf

[ruger]

If you really are considering moving just for this, move to Vermont or Alaska.

They both have so-called "Vermont" style laws. All citizens are allowed to carry a concealed weapon. No permit. No fingerprints. No application.

See http://www.packing.org/state/ for more info.

-Ruger

[Natan706]

If you really are considering moving just for this, move to Vermont or Alaska.



I am only considering Washington because of the family that lives there.


Are there any lawyers that specialize in situations like these?
I am going to Appeal. I know I dont need a lawyer but I would just like to have someone there that knows more about this stuff.

[KarlPMann]

Hmmm, lemme see now, lawyer that specializes in gun law in the Denver area? :twisted: I know, what about James O. Bardwell? He's the nations top IMHO, and he's local. I tried to look him up, but he isn't listed any more... :? :? :? Well, if you can find him, he's good. Karl.

[bbadmin]

I'll check on this tonight. I have a connection at A County.

Sounds like a technicality. But it could be that this is a discretionary area for the Sheriff.

I'll let you know if I find out anything.




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[Natan706]

Thanks everyone for all the ideas and help. I really appreciate it!! Im going to try to schedule an appointment with a lawyer about it, but lack the funds to do so at this point in time. So for now Im just reading a lot.


Thank you all once again!

[bbadmin]

Okay, here's the deal. I asked around and here is the answer I got. The responders were law enforcement officers who work with CCW permits for a living. I promised not to quote them, but rest assured they are in the know. Take it for what its worth.



The 9 criteria in the Gun Control Act (which the CRS based the Concealed Handgun Permit criteria on) are:

If any of the following apply, you may not own a firearm:

1. Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable
by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
2. Fugitives from justice
3. Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled
substance;
4. Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or
have been committed to a mental institution;
5. Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States
under a nonimmigrant visa;
6. Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the military;
7. Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship
8. Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders, and;
9. Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of Domestic
Violence.

So, if your guy can't legally possess a handgun under Federal Law, he
can't carry a concealed handgun under Colorado law.

Point 1: if he took a plea bargain, even if the judgment or sentence was deferred, it's still a conviction. If the original charge was a crime punishable by more than 1 year imprisonment, it's a disqualifier.

Point 2: The Concealed Handgun Permit process is CIVIL, not Criminal. We don't have to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt, only by a preponderance of evidence. That means he was conviced of a drug crime, no matter how long ago, that's enough evidence that he's an "unlawful user of any controlled substance".

Point 3: He's entitled to an appeal hearing with the Sheriff. That's his chance to refute the evidence the cops put together to deny him. If he doesn't exercise his rights under the law, then he can just live with the decision. Remind him that he has a limited time to call and schedule his appeal. I have no idea how Arapahoe handles their appeal process, so he need to call their CHP staff, and find out how to appeal.


Again let me state, I understand what you've told us, I am just passing on the response I got. If you feel its worth it, I'd appeal it. At the least it might be worth getting a legal opinion on for future reference.


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[Natan706]

Thanks for looking into that for me. I appreciate the effort that you've made.
I know that you were just passing on info, but according to everything that Ive read online Point 1 is completely false. Which is the only reason Im upset. I honestly dont care if I get the CCW or not anymore.
I still plan on talking to a lawyer, even if to just clear up the "conviction" term regarding differed entry of judgement. Thank you all for your time.

[KarlPMann]

Well, I WILL do some quoting/naming here. When this law was first being discussed and then passed, I spoke to James Bardwell, an attorney in Denver. He is VERY well known for his work with, and expertise in, the law in regards to firearms. He is probably the nations best know lawyer on gun issues.

He has made a small fortune suing police departments for not issuing permits both before the must issue law and after. According to him, they cannot deny you for something that isn't on your record. I understand their approach, but if they did it to me and I could afford it, I'd sue.

Karl.

[bbadmin]

I think you really need a lawyer to talk to. This could, according to some interpretations, be more serious then just being denied a carry permit.



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[KarlPMann]

He's right, it could mean the loss of your right to even own a gun. On the other hand, since the record is sealed, they'd have no way of knowing. I'd still talk to a lawyer. Karl. :cry:

[Natan706]

No its really not that serious. Being that I bought 2 guns in 2005 through with the CBI check and there were no problems.
The record is not sealed. The record isnt supposed to exist!!! Thats the whole point of doing the Differed Entry of Judgement.
Im going to talk to a lwayer if any of the ones Ive called will ever call me back. Until then I will be patient and continue to learn about the law.

[KarlPMann]

If you can legally own a gun, then you're supposed to be able to get the CCW. Karl.

[Gman]

I am not aware of any issues that prevent you from getting a CCW that aren't listed right on the ATF 4473 you fill out to purchase a firearm.

[bbadmin]

So I spent some time talking to an investigator with a DA's office in the metro area this weekend. It could be that both positions on this are correct.

You are correct that your deferrment should not count as a criminal conviction.

And it could be that the statement that you have an active conviction is correct.

Sometimes a deferred sentence / judgement requires action from you before it is closed completely. Some jurisdictions require you to submit a petition or motion to have the case closed. If you don't do that, then the case may remain open and cause you problems.

If you didn't do anything to close the case after the period of time specified in the case, it could still be open. If that is the case, then the case still exists, and your "conviction" is visible. Once the thing is closed, the record are supposed to be expunged and it never happened.

Again, it sounds like an attorney is required to make sense of this. The suggestion was made that you contact the attorney that represented you in this case. If there wasn't one, then you should consult with one in the jurisdiction where this took place, since that's were any additional paper work will half to be filed.

Hope that helps.



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[Natan706]

Ok well its starting to make sense I suppose. Thank you all for your information and for talking to others about this. I am going to go ahead and contact a lawyer back where the case took place and have them take care of this once and for all.
I found a document in my files that will make this go smoothly too. It is the document that proves the successful completion of Diversion (ie Differed Entry of Judgement) and the recommendation for dismissal of all pending charges. So that should help.

Thanks again for all of your advise!

[usafk9leads]

did you ever get this cleared up?

[Natan706]

No, I have tried to find a lawyer in CA that could help get this off my record, but Im not having much luck. I have been told that I need to be there in person, which isnt a possibility for me at this point in time. I just cant afford the trip let alone the court fees!