Utah Man Shot to Death by Police for Raising a Golf Club...

[ChunkyMonkey]

WV6Bq8xeQrU

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/364/589/Horrifying:_Utah_Man_Shot_to_Death_by_Police_for_R aising_Golf_Club.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/utah-video-police-kill-man-drug-raid_n_810420.html

Remember this? Thoughts on no-knock warrants?

[DeusExMachina]

Cop was startled, opened fire.

Dude with a golf club hearing people breaking into his house is completely justified.

Shooting him from 20 feet away is not.

[Zundfolge]

Thoughts on no-knock warrants?

No-knock warrants have ZERO place in a free society outside of hostage rescue. PERIOD.

This is one place where I part with my conservative brethren, we need to end this God-awful stupid war on drugs because a single dead man with a golf club in his hand is worse then 1,000,000 new pot heads.

[CrufflerSteve]

No-knock warrants have ZERO place in a free society outside of hostage rescue. PERIOD.

This is one place where I part with my conservative brethren, we need to end this God-awful stupid war on drugs because a single dead man with a golf club in his hand is worse then 1,000,000 new pot heads.

Amen Bro! No knock raids have no place in any sort of free society. The (lost) war on drugs has led to all sorts of abuses of the constitution. I have never felt comfortable with people who proclaim themselves conservatives and are in favor of such activities. Putting heavily armed cops into no knock raids on what has too often been faulty info crosses the line int JBT territory.

Steve

[Lex_Luthor]

Police tried to detain Blair so that he wouldn't be in the house when it was raided, but pulled over the wrong person. Despite that mistake, and despite the knowledge that the roommate had moved out, the raid on Blair was still carried out. It was hastily planned, reported the Tribune, diverting from protocol. Burnett, who shot Blair, told investigators that it is "absolutely not our standard" to carry out such a raid with as little planning as was done, according to the Tribune.

It was so hastily carried out, in fact, that police forgot the warrant. According to the Tribune, in the video it obtained an officer can be heard asking: "Did somebody grab a copy of the warrant off my desk?"


Burnett replies: "Oh, don't tell me that." He then complains to the other officers: "He doesn't have a copy of the warrant."
Minutes later, Blair would be dead.

Sad day.

[Troublco]

So, they deviated from standard procedure, rushed, it was done in the knowledge that the person they were after did not live there anymore, AND they didn't have a copy of the warrant. Nah, no problems here.

I have no problems with police, in fact I have lots of them in my family.

I do have a huge problem with departments not adhering to policy, not using common sense, and acting in a cavalier fashion like this. I too think no-knock warrants need to be reined in, severely. Do I think police should take unnecessary risks? No. But it is by nature a dangerous job. And on a bad case like this, they should have taken extra care. Someone who was not the target of the warrant that they didn't even have with them died as a result of their cascade of errors. This was not an oops. It was a tragedy.

[TEAMRICO]

Even with the grainy video I could tell it was a club! Who the hell holds a rifle or pistol like a baseball bat? Cops overreacting. I know there must be a training scenario for this.
With a no knock entry I could see ANYONE, even a drug dealer, reacting like that! Someone barging into your home like that, even the police yelling and screaming. It is called home invasion and the yelling is to SCARE you and CONFUSE you! Seems like he was just defending his home.
It is your home and I know my Saiga12 would have have been making happy flashes regardless who it was.

[funkfool]

Complete FUBAR.

[OneGuy67]

Huffingtonpost and Beforeitsnews are unabashidely liberal news sources. Here is the post from the Salt Lake Tribune who posted the video. It appears to be more balanced.


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50932722-76/blair-officer-force-deadly.html.csp?page=1#

From their report, the police didn't know the girlfriend was no longer living there. The house was the target of the search warrant; the reports don't mention if there were arrest warrants for either him or his girlfriend.

Having a copy of the warrant at the time of the execution isn't a fatal error. You are required to leave a copy of the signed warrant face at the place searched, along with an inventory of seized items. You don't have to be holding the warrant in hand when going through the door. Of course, it would be nice to have it in hand when executing, but things do happen and if you have to send someone back to the office to get it before you leave, then you do so.

Police do train for scenarios in which someone approaches them holding a club, bat or other blugeoning device. (Good) SWAT teams do practice dynamic entries where a situation like this might occur.

[theGinsue]

Terribly sad and wholey avoidable tragedy.

[funkfool]

Having a copy of the warrant at the time of the execution isn't a fatal error.

Well, for the poor golf club wielding resident it quite literally is.


Of course, it would be nice to have it in hand when executing,...
Again... not the best nomenclature to be using to describe this sort of event...
(have what... a nine iron?)
Not to make light of this but... stop now if you are easily offended...
He should have shouted "FORE!"


Terribly sad and wholey avoidable tragedy.
Agreed.

[Bailey Guns]

I'm a little torn on this. I watched the video and read the far more comprehensive version of events from the SLC Tribune.

There is no excuse for the sloppy police work that led up to the execution of the warrant.

I also disagree with the no-knock warrant in this instance, as I do in most instances. I have issues, myself, with the so-called "war on drugs", it's effectiveness and cost to society. So I'm disappointed a no-knock warrant was used in this particular case.

Having said all that, when the officers entered, the officer who fired said he thought the object held by Blair may have been a sword. And they were only about 8' apart...not 20. The officer who fired was the first through the door and had moved to the right after advancing into the home. I can't really fault him for firing in this case.

Of course, without the warrant, whether or not he should have fired would've been a moot point.

It's very tragic anyway you look at it. But, given the circumstances, I agree the shooting itself (discounting all other factors) was justified. Judging the shooting in light of the totality of the circumstances is a different matter.

[BigBear]

Ban Police!!! It's for teh childrens!!! .... "damnit Bear, get back to your corner...."

[DeusExMachina]

I think its a hell of a lot more than 8'. Its clear across a living room. Officer saw the guy standing there and shot. The guy didn't seem to make any sort of threatening move.

I have a feeling if he was standing there with nothing in his hands he would have been shot anyway. The officer's reaction upon seeing the guy was to fire.

[TFOGGER]

I'm probably going to offend some LEOs, but I have an observation:

These "dynamic entry teams" and "drug task force" squads seem to attract the "cowboys" on the force. My impression from meeting a number of them (my stepkid is LEO) is that a lot of them are pretty cocky, and some are downright overconfident and condescending towards anyone that is not a part of the "team". Seriously, why would they have to make a no-knock entry, dressed like frickin ninjas, on a relatively minor drug warrant? It's not like they were assaulting the main stronghold of the Reynosa cartel. The fact that the officer involved had previously been involved in a (good) shoot also adds fuel to the fire in a civil trial, even if this shoot were entirely justified. Obviously, we don't have all of the facts, just what the news media wants us to have, so this shooting MAY have been justified, but it appears to me that a number of serious errors probably occurred.

Edit: Someone bouncing up the stairs in my house in the middle of the night dressed like a ninja and yelling, will probably go bouncing back down the stairs looking a lot like a ninja full of .45 caliber holes...

[palepainter]

Sad. It could have possibly been any one of us here getting served like that. Who knows for what. The outcome would have been different with any other means than a golf club.

Terribly disturbing.

[Bailey Guns]

The distance from Burnett to Blair has been estimated between “a little more than an arm’s length away,” according to Burnett, to 8 feet, as reflected by a scale diagram showing positions of the shell casings.

Obviously it was more than an arm's length. 8' doesn't seem unreasonable. If he (the shooting officer) thought it was a sword and the guy was inside of 21' he would've been facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat.

[ronaldrwl]

No-knock warrants have ZERO place in a free society outside of hostage rescue. PERIOD.

This is one place where I part with my conservative brethren, we need to end this God-awful stupid war on drugs because a single dead man with a golf club in his hand is worse then 1,000,000 new pot heads.

+1

And there should be jail time for the shooter.

[OneGuy67]

I'm probably going to offend some LEOs, but I have an observation:

These "dynamic entry teams" and "drug task force" squads seem to attract the "cowboys" on the force. My impression from meeting a number of them (my stepkid is LEO) is that a lot of them are pretty cocky, and some are downright overconfident and condescending towards anyone that is not a part of the "team". Seriously, why would they have to make a no-knock entry, dressed like frickin ninjas, on a relatively minor drug warrant? It's not like they were assaulting the main stronghold of the Reynosa cartel. The fact that the officer involved had previously been involved in a (good) shoot also adds fuel to the fire in a civil trial, even if this shoot were entirely justified. Obviously, we don't have all of the facts, just what the news media wants us to have, so this shooting MAY have been justified, but it appears to me that a number of serious errors probably occurred.

Edit: Someone bouncing up the stairs in my house in the middle of the night dressed like a ninja and yelling, will probably go bouncing back down the stairs looking a lot like a ninja full of .45 caliber holes...


You aren't offending me with your observations. There definitely is an "attitude" from those who volunteer for specifically the tactical unit. The narcotics unit, not necessarily, from my experience.

From what I gather from the SLC article, the actual warrant execution was conducted by their SWAT or tactical unit and not the narc unit, although from the video there appeared to be one narc in the stack that went in.

I've had the opportunity to observe Denver's full time SWAT unit execute warrants and they are fast, smooth and professional. Of course, they practice and train all the time and have no other work obligations other than SWAT. The rest of the agencies I've worked with have part time SWAT or tactical teams who train together when they can, from 8 hours a month to 8 hours a quarter. These are the teams I have concerns with and are the ones who usually have this issue.

[CrufflerSteve]

A Libertarian magazine, http://reason.com/ has kept track of botched no knock raids. There have been too many with incorrect addresses and bad data.

Suppose this happened in Colorado. How many posters here keep loaded guns in the house? How many would use them to defend their family if intruders burst into the house?

I think the War on Drugs has been a actually a war on the constitution. It wasn't intended that way but it happened. I think a pretty good argument could be made that we have lost this war and should cut our losses.

Steve

[Zundfolge]

It wasn't intended that way but it happened.
I'm not convinced of that.


As for the officer that did the shooting, I think he should be at least on desk duty if not fired, but I'm not even going to go so far as to say he should be in jail ... the policy of conducting any form of no-knock raid put this officer in the position where he shot a man he claims he thought had a sword.

Except for a situation where someone's life is in immediate danger, there is just zero reason I can think of that a no-knock raid is called for.

Loss of evidence? Keeping someone from buying/selling/using drugs? Neither is worth the shredding of the 4th Amendment. Neither is worth turning our police into military style special forces operators (which violates the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act if not the letter).

[TFOGGER]

A Libertarian magazine, http://reason.com/ has kept track of botched no knock raids. There have been too many with incorrect addresses and bad data.

Suppose this happened in Colorado. How many posters here keep loaded guns in the house? How many would use them to defend their family if intruders burst into the house?

I think the War on Drugs has been a actually a war on the constitution. It wasn't intended that way but it happened. I think a pretty good argument could be made that we have lost this war and should cut our losses.

Steve

This HAS happened in Colorado, and it's cost 2 men their lives, and the citizens of Denver millions of dollars....

1st one I remember was a no knock on the wrong address, they shot the homeowner as he walked out of a bedroom, 2nd was when they shot a man with a coke can in his hand while he was lying in bed.

[OneGuy67]

This HAS happened in Colorado, and it's cost 2 men their lives, and the citizens of Denver millions of dollars....

1st one I remember was a no knock on the wrong address, they shot the homeowner as he walked out of a bedroom, 2nd was when they shot a man with a coke can in his hand while he was lying in bed.


The first you refer to is Ismael Mena and was a wrong address on the warrant as the DPD officer took the word of his informant as to the address of the house and didn't check for himself, nor did he adequately describe the residence as required.

The second wasn't a warrant intrusion. The officer gained entry into the residence through an upstairs window and surprised/was surprised by the shooting victim, Frank Lobato. The call was a domestic violence call and Lobato was not the suspect.

[BigMat]

Loss of evidence? Keeping someone from buying/selling/using drugs? Neither is worth the shredding of the 4th Amendment. Neither is worth turning our police into military style special forces operators (which violates the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act if not the letter).
AGREED!

personally I think this whole business is really pushing the limits of the law, and not for search and seizure reasons.

I am/was friends with more than a few cops and I feel that a lot of PDs and most importantly SWAT is becoming very militaristic, taking ranking, equipment, sharing in training, many don't even refer to themselves as civilians anymore. Its much too close to US military acting on US soil.

No knock raids have no reason to exist outside of hostage situations, period, if you can't nail a jerk with the drugs, more police work, get him later, turn off the water, I don't care, but one dead innocent man is unacceptable and at this point there is a lot of blood on the wrong hands. It is not just hurting innocents, it is hurting PDs because perfectly law abiding citizens don't trust police anymore, that is terrible.

[Elhuero]

I'm a little torn on this. I watched the video and read the far more comprehensive version of events from the SLC Tribune.

There is no excuse for the sloppy police work that led up to the execution of the warrant.

I also disagree with the no-knock warrant in this instance, as I do in most instances. I have issues, myself, with the so-called "war on drugs", it's effectiveness and cost to society. So I'm disappointed a no-knock warrant was used in this particular case.

Having said all that, when the officers entered, the officer who fired said he thought the object held by Blair may have been a sword. And they were only about 8' apart...not 20. The officer who fired was the first through the door and had moved to the right after advancing into the home. I can't really fault him for firing in this case.

Of course, without the warrant, whether or not he should have fired would've been a moot point.

It's very tragic anyway you look at it. But, given the circumstances, I agree the shooting itself (discounting all other factors) was justified. Judging the shooting in light of the totality of the circumstances is a different matter.

you have GOT to be kidding me.



here's hoping they don't mess up and no-knock my address.

[BushMasterBoy]

Another American unjustly executed...whats new? Too bad it wasn't a federal judge or a congress member, that is the only way this thuggery is going to stop.
Makes me want to build a bomb proof bunker and stay inside where it is safe from the government!

[BigMat]

I also don't think the cop should be off the hook for something like this! In any other career, if you do something that takes another persons life or even just breaks the law, you are responsible.

As an EMT and now nursing student if I screw up and give meds, even in they are prescribed by a doc, but poorly or in error, its my ass too, end of story. Maybe not jail, but I for sure am not a nurse anymore and beyond a shadow of a doubt I am getting tagged with a big old law suit. If I chrashed my box into someone, code three call or not, I could promise you I was in trouble.

If you are going to carry a gun you are responsible for where the bullets land, that is a choice you make. The law should apply equally to all in this country, that is a big part of what keeps us free.

[Elhuero]

maybe the backlash has already started


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41235743/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

[Byte Stryke]

I Honestly do not feel that the illegal execution of an unlawful entry can be followed by a justified shooting.

So what you are saying is, if at 2am a bunch of storm troopers confused your address with a meth lab and raided your house, you wouldn't try to protect your home as a law abiding citizen?
So your Widow and Orphans will just fend for themselves in the streets?
Because if you are killed by police in a "Clean Shoot" you do know most life insurances will not pay as obviously you had committed an act that voluntarily perpetuated your own death.
I believe the common term is "PD Suicide."

Unless you have a warrant and present it upon entry, you are in violation of the fourth. Thus your illegal entry will be seen as a threat to the safety and welfare of my family and you will be fired upon with extreme prejudice.

CHP/CCW regardless
Come take the guns and I will stab you in the damned neck with a butter knife. I am really sick of the Gestapo tactics and double standards by the Police.


Just my two cents

[OneGuy67]

I Honestly do not feel that the illegal execution of an unlawful entry can be followed by a justified shooting.

Byte, what was illegal? They had a search warrant signed by a judge. Even if they had it on scene at the time, they aren't going to wave it around while executing a rapid entry. It is usually something handed to the resident once the residence and its occupants are secured.

[Elhuero]

Byte, what was illegal? They had a search warrant signed by a judge. Even if they had it on scene at the time, they aren't going to wave it around while executing a rapid entry. It is usually something handed to the resident once the residence and its occupants are secured.


ugh. I'm done here. I don't want to argue.

[Byte Stryke]

well hell lets just search now and worry about the warrant later... I'll take your word for it.

what if you were the shooter? Knowing you had taken the life of an innocent man startled from his sleep by a wrongful entry? he wasn't a drug dealer... he was an innocent man facing a breach of his home.

warrant? yeah we will get that later... trust me.


Show me in a single term how a "no knock raid" doesn't violate reasonable search and seizure.
Justify to me the reasoning why you cannot knock on the door with the building surrounded. whats he going to do? take his family hostage? weigh that against some gestapo ass-clowns killing a little kid and me paying higher taxes for it for the next 80 years when the PD gets sued into bankruptcy

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

take your "Oh, its totally legal" Attitude and check it against the civil rights.

No knock raids have NO PLACE in a civil and constitutional country.

[OneGuy67]

well hell lets just search now and worry about the warrant later... I'll take your word for it.

what if you were the shooter? Knowing you had taken the life of an innocent man startled from his sleep by a wrongful entry? he wasn't a drug dealer... he was an innocent man facing a breach of his home.

warrant? yeah we will get that later... trust me.


Show me in a single term how a "no knock raid" doesn't violate reasonable search and seizure.
Justify to me the reasoning why you cannot knock on the door with the building surrounded. whats he going to do? take his family hostage? weigh that against some gestapo ass-clowns killing a little kid and me paying higher taxes for it for the next 80 years when the PD gets sued into bankruptcy

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

take your "Oh, its totally legal" Attitude and check it against the civil rights.

No knock raids have NO PLACE in a civil and constitutional country.

Whoa! Gettin' some attitude. I asked simply what was illegal. They had a legal warrant at the time of the execution, not after. They had a judges permission to search the home. There was no search now and get a warrant later. His innocence? According to the reports, he wasn't innocent, although he may not have been a dealer. He may have been simply a user, but drugs were dealt out of the house, either by him or his girlfriend who lived with him.

My "Oh, its totally legal" attitude as you state is pretty misguided. Where in the what, three posts I put on this did I say anything at all about it being "totally legal" or that I agreed with the no-knock premise? During the two years I was assigned to the DEA drug task force, we never did a no-knock warrant. They are difficult to get and you have to provide a lot of good reasons why the judge should allow one.

[Irving]

Everything that needs to be said has been covered already.


There is a HUGE disconnect here though. Warrants are for search and seizure right? Or is the killing of people some where in the small print?

Didn't a lady shot at some officers that were conducting a no-knock raid on the wrong house get charged? While every time a person is killed in botched no-knock didn't get any charges at all? Ever?

[OneGuy67]

Everything that needs to be said has been covered already.


There is a HUGE disconnect here though. Warrants are for search and seizure right? Or is the killing of people some where in the small print?

Didn't a lady shot at some officers that were conducting a no-knock raid on the wrong house get charged? While every time a person is killed in botched no-knock didn't get any charges at all? Ever?

There isn't a disconnect. SEARCH warrants are for the search of items that are stolen or embezzled, are designed or intended for use as a means of committing a criminal offense or have been used for committing a criminal offense, are illegal to possess, would be material evidence in a subsequent criminal prosecution or is a person, property or thing the seizure of which is expressly required, authorized or permitted by statute of the State of Colorado or is kept, stored, transported, sold, dispensed or possessed in violation of a statute of of the State of Colorado under circumstances involving a serious threat to public safety, or order, or to the public health. These are the things that can authorize a search warrant by a judge, here in Colorado.



You are associating the two together into one issue and it isn't. An officer may use deadly force if he feels there is a threat to himself or to others. Executing a search warrant is one thing. Being threatened and defending yourself is another. The issue presented here is whether or not the officer was being threatened or felt threatened and had a right of self defense to use deadly force. Lots and lots of search warrants are executed without any issues daily that you don't hear about. Some are as Byte describes and asks about, some are more dynamic, some are extremely mundane.

I can't speak for your first example as I've not heard of any such circumstances here in Colorado, but the second one, there were officers charged, I believe in Atlanta, over a botched no-knock. Although I get a number of police related periodicals, magazines, and emails relating to these out of state events, I don't really follow them too closely because they don't have an effect here in Colorado for Colorado law enforcment.

[Bailey Guns]

you have GOT to be kidding me.



here's hoping they don't mess up and no-knock my address.

Why don't you try actually understanding the point I was trying to make.

I was referring to only the circumstances in which the shooting took place. Not the circumstances that lead to the shooting. You have a:
dynamic entry
in low light
with unknown person rushing into view
and holding unknown shiny item that appeared to the shooter to possibly be a deadly weapon
which it potentially was
and he was in dangerously close proximity to the officerAnd apparently the DA agrees.

Now, the whole thing, no-knock warrant and all that BS that lead up to the above circumstances...different story.

And that's why I wrote I agree the shooting itself (discounting all other factors) was justified.(Emphasis yours)

[Bailey Guns]

You are associating the two together into one issue and it isn't. An officer may use deadly force if he feels there is a threat to himself or to others. Executing a search warrant is one thing. Being threatened and defending yourself is another. The issue presented here is whether or not the officer was being threatened or felt threatened and had a right of self defense to use deadly force.

Exactly. Given ONLY the issue of self-defense in this case, with the circumstances presented to the officer I believe he was justified in shooting to protect himself and others.

A civil court will decide on whether or not they should have been there in the first place and whether the resulting death was justified or not in light of the sloppy police work that lead to the shooting.

In my opinion they shouldn't have been there under those circumstances.

[TFOGGER]

One question for OneGuy67:

If someone kicks your door in at 2 AM, and comes into the house shouting unintelligibly, how would you respond?

I know for damn sure my first response would not be to fall face first on the floor and put my hands on the back of my head.

No knock warrants SHOULD be all but impossible to obtain. Execution of them presents an extreme level of danger for both the officers and the subjects, particularly when the intel used to issue them is suspect (Israel Mena).

[Irving]

I know full well that I'm mixing the two issues. I'm purposely doing it because they are intermingled in real life. No-knock raids are kind of like that quantum theory analogy about the cat inside the box.

You have a car inside a sealed box. You want to know if it is dead or alive. You can't observe the cat without directly affecting the experiment. Is the cat dead, or is the cat alive? The answer is "Yes."

You are about to kick down the door on an unsuspecting person. Do they have a gun they are going to threaten you with? Are they asleep and not immediately endangering anyone? The answer is "Yes."

All lame attempts at connecting quantum theories with no-knock raids, your life is ALWAYS threatened if you are invading another person's property/personal space. Police officers have the right to kill anyone they perceive as a threat, at all times, under any circumstances, with little to no consequences. With that set-up, disaster is inevitable and it shouldn't be.

[Irving]

I actually agree with Bailey that given just the situation that the cop was put in, I'm not surprised that he shot. Put a guy in a shitty situation, don't be surprised when you get a shitty outcome. I'd lay the blame more on the person who allowed this situation to take place at all.

[Byte Stryke]

[ROFL1]

DA Agreed....


as if a DA would ever turn against the Blue line without pressure from above.

[ROFL2]


Let a DA prosecute a cop without a huge push from above and the DA Commits career suicide.


DA Agreed...

[LOL]

can't



stop



laughing.



I Only have one question for everyone.

How am I Supposed to know when my 4th amendment rights have been revoked with my right to protect my home and my family during a no knock raid?

That's like getting pulled over and finding out your CCW/CHP has been revoked AFTER you are arrested for carrying an illegal concealed weapon.

[Bailey Guns]

I love threads that are long on emotion and short on logic.

I can tell you from experience. If you ever find yourself on the wrong end of a multi-million dollar civil suit as a cop...for something you didn't do...you might think differently about that this whole nonsense about "cops can do anything and get away with it".

I find a lot of the chest thumping here amusing as well. Go ahead and play tough guy with a gun when the cops bust down your door. Have fun while it lasts...cause it won't last long.

Lots of things to laugh at in this thread.

[OneGuy67]

One question for OneGuy67:

If someone kicks your door in at 2 AM, and comes into the house shouting unintelligibly, how would you respond?

I know for damn sure my first response would not be to fall face first on the floor and put my hands on the back of my head.

No knock warrants SHOULD be all but impossible to obtain. Execution of them presents an extreme level of danger for both the officers and the subjects, particularly when the intel used to issue them is suspect (Israel Mena).

Truthfully, I don't know what I would do. Given how hard I sleep, I would probably be still in my bed dazed and confused, trying to shake the cobwebs out of my noggin with the dogs barking like crazy and people shouting at me.

As with everything in our lives, the issue with search warrants is reactive. Because of the Mena issue, judges tightened up the requirements for search warrants even more than they already were. They made obtaining a no-knock warrant more difficult and the reasons for one needed to be spelled out more. I have no issues with any of the things that are required now. Never have. As with everything that usually gets discussed here, it is relative to whether or not it happened in Colorado or not, as the laws are different. Apples and Oranges. Not to say it couldn't happen, but you would have to give a lot of compeling arguments to the judge to get a no-knock on a drug case and given what I've read on this particular case, it probaby would not have been granted here in Colorado.

The one thing I would ask of the members here is this: please don't lump Colorado law enforcement into what you see in other states. Each state is its own entity and has separate laws, rules, educational requirments, etc. With that, please don't lump Colorado law enforcement in with the Denver PD and believe what happens in Denver, happens everywhere. There are 1,500 officers in Denver and another 4,500-5,000 officers (Approximate. There may be more I've forgotten to count towards the number) everywhere else in Colorado. We all don't act like the Denver officers seen on videos recently.

There's a thread on the amount of officers killed recently. Lots of theories as to why, but what tends to be forgotten is that officers are the embodiment of government that most people ever get to see. Food for thought.

[Byte Stryke]

So I Will ask again,


How am I to know that my right to defend my home against intrusion has been revoked for a no knock raid?



I believe this is a Police-state tactic.

"Well we broke into his home in the middle of the night screaming, unannounced, he should have known!"

I Still do not buy it and think that short of absolute proof of some sort of large scale destructive device... knock on the fucking door and serve the warrant first.

[Graves]

Wow, whole lotta "no experience, but I'll judge anyhow" in this thread.

Welcome to the internet Kelly.

[Bailey Guns]

I'm not real thrilled with the quality of the warrant in this case, but the shoot itself was good. Sorry.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

[OneGuy67]

So I Will ask again,


How am I to know that my right to defend my home against intrusion has been revoked for a no knock raid?



I believe this is a Police-state tactic.

"Well we broke into his home in the middle of the night screaming, unannounced, he should have known!"

I Still do not buy it and think that short of absolute proof of some sort of large scale destructive device... knock on the fucking door and serve the warrant first.


Truthfully and I'm really not being sarcastic...don't do anything like selling drugs out of your house that would cause you to be on the police radar. It becomes a police state when normal, law abiding citizens are having their doors caved in and not just those who are involved in activities THAT ARE CRIMINAL.

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.

[Marlin]

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.


Not all are. But, the ones that are, and do, need to be delt with severly, and not Protected at all costs by the union. Because, Like everything else, there are just some people who should not be cops.

[TFOGGER]

I'm not blaming the officer, I'm blaming the process, and the judge that signed off on a no knock warrant, when it clearly wasn't ...er...warranted. Even IF the subject had 2 ounces of heroin, clearly, this isn't going to be a record drug bust for the "Strike Force". This guy was NOT a major player, their intel was horrible, execution sucked, and a man lost his life over it. The officer did exactly what he was trained to do. The problem is that he was placed in a situation, needlessly, that forced him to rely on his training. We're big on constitutional rights on this forum, and we talk a lot about our First and Second Amendment rights, but what has happened to the Fourth Amendment? This was obviously a big deal for the founding fathers, why should it be any less so with us? And how do sealed warrants and confidential informants reconcile with the Sixth Amendment? When do we finally say that the Bill of Rights applies to all of the people all of time? I realize the guy who was killed was no angel, he had a well documented history of (minor) criminal activity. Does that mean that he should die based on shaky intel and vague accusations, just because he chose to try to protect himself from parties unknown invading his home in the middle of the night?

/rambling rant

[Bailey Guns]

No, it doesn't mean the guy should've died. However, there's a process in place called the court system. That system is in place to deal with inappropriate police behavior.

You deal with a bad warrant, 4th amendment violation, etc...when you go to court. Not by raising a potentially lethal weapon over your head as if you mean to strike an armed police officer with it. Courts frequently rule against cops in search and seizure activities. If it's bad, it'll likely come to light in a courtroom.

The guy had a history of making bad decisions. This was just another in a long line. And who knows? Maybe he was under the influence of various drugs when this whole thing happened.

[TFOGGER]

No, it doesn't mean the guy should've died. However, there's a process in place called the court system. That system is in place to deal with inappropriate police behavior.

You deal with a bad warrant, 4th amendment violation, etc...when you go to court. Not by raising a potentially lethal weapon over your head as if you mean to strike an armed police officer with it. Courts frequently rule against cops in search and seizure activities. If it's bad, it'll likely come to light in a courtroom.

The guy had a history of making bad decisions. This was just another in a long line. And who knows? Maybe he was under the influence of various drugs when this whole thing happened.

Not to belabor the point, but the alleged drug dealer won't get his day in court.

No knock warrants/dynamic entries are DESIGNED to confuse and frighten the targets. Evolution has programmed us to respond to such stimuli with one of 2 reactions: Flight or Fight.

Given the rising incidence of home invasion robberies and assaults in recent years, was his response unreasonable? Would you assume that someone kicking the door in in the middle of the night was a police officer?

[Bailey Guns]

Well, quite honestly, I really don't worry about it because, as mentioned a little earlier, I don't put myself in situations that might cause the police to do that.

I also don't do drugs or other substances (alcohol) to the extent it impairs my judgment.

I gotta tell ya. I CLEARLY heard and understood what the officers were saying on the video. Several of them yelled quite loud and legibly who they were. If I could easily hear and comprehend it from a YouTube video, I'm pretty sure I could've identified them inside my home. The dead guy won't get his day in court because he made a bad judgment call for whatever reason.

That's another thing I find kinda funny from a bunch of people who are self-professed "gun guys". A key tenent in using a gun in self-defense is identifying your target. If someone were to be awakened by a commotion in their home I certainly hope they'd take the time to positively identify a target prior to shooting at said target. And if they did identify that target as a police officer (or several of them all dressed in what appeared to be police SWAT uniforms), why would that person shoot?

[Zundfolge]

That's another thing I find kinda funny from a bunch of people who are self-professed "gun guys". A key tenent in using a gun in self-defense is identifying your target. If someone were to be awakened by a commotion in their home I certainly hope they'd take the time to positively identify a target prior to shooting at said target. And if they did identify that target as a police officer (or several of them all dressed in what appeared to be police SWAT uniforms), why would that person shoot?

Because like you I don't engage in any criminal activity so I have to assume if there are guys dressed like a SWAT team yelling "Police" and kicking in my door they are robbers pretending to be cops.

[BigBear]

To throw something out there...

There have been several instances lately where people dressed as LEO's have broken down doors and robbed/raped claiming they were "pol-eeeeeece" to entince the cooperation of the victims.

I would imagine that one would need more than yelling "Police" while pointing a gun at me after a no-knock entrance to take it seriously... From his past, could he have thought it would be some bangers trying to rip off his stash, etc?

Dunno, just thoughts. I just hope I never have a confused no-knock cause I'd probably end up dead. Knock on the door, show me your creds and you can have free reign of the house.... Knock down the door yelling (I don't care what) and there will most likely be a confused shootout with someone ending up dead.

[Bailey Guns]

Well, I don't have every instance of a home invasion where the bad guys dress up like cops memorized. However, my gut tells me they all have one thing in common. And that one thing ain't the fact that everyone in the home is a fine, upstanding, contributing member of society. I'd also be willing to bet that when this does happen it wouldn't take a real genius to determine maybe the intruders weren't real cops.

I know it sometimes happens to innocent people and it shouldn't. But I'd wager it happens far more often to those who really aren't innocent. Sometimes you have to make your own luck.

[TFOGGER]

Well, quite honestly, I really don't worry about it because, as mentioned a little earlier, I don't put myself in situations that might cause the police to do that.



But as was pointed out earlier, mistakes have been made. Police have crashed the wrong party on many occasions. You might not have made bad decisions, but perhaps your neighbor has. Granted, the police get it right more often than they get it wrong, but they get it wrong often enough to make it a legitimate concern in my mind.

I would be likely to respond to a violent invasion of my home with force (and probably get myself killed) primarily BECAUSE I have not knowingly given the police a reason to take an interest in my activities, therefore I would not expect them to be behind a violent entry. Just because the are screaming "POLICE!! SEARCH WARRANT!" doesn't mean that I am going to understand what they are saying in my adrenaline rush, or if I do, that I am going to believe them.

[Bailey Guns]

This is a test.

If police officers were to kick down your door during the execution of a search warrant, do you think they might say:

a) Yelling loud, repeated verbal commands: "POLICE!!! SEARCH WARRANT!"

b) In loud voices: "Yo muthafukka. Gitchyo bitchass on the muthafukkin' flo fo I bus a muthafukkin cap in you bitchass. Where da shit, huh? Where it at?"

c) Both of the above

d) Neither of the above

[Bailey Guns]

But as was pointed out earlier, mistakes have been made. Police have crashed the wrong party on many occasions. You might not have made bad decisions, but perhaps your neighbor has. Granted, the police get it right more often than they get it wrong, but they get it wrong often enough to make it a legitimate concern in my mind.

I would be likely to respond to a violent invasion of my home with force (and probably get myself killed) primarily BECAUSE I have not knowingly given the police a reason to take an interest in my activities, therefore I would not expect them to be behind a violent entry. Just because the are screaming "POLICE!! SEARCH WARRANT!" doesn't mean that I am going to understand what they are saying in my adrenaline rush, or if I do, that I am going to believe them.

Well, I guess that's the difference between you and me. I don't worry about it. I would worry more about being eaten alive by sharks in Bailey than worry about the police mistakenly breaking into my home.

But to each his own.

[68Charger]

Truthfully and I'm really not being sarcastic...don't do anything like selling drugs out of your house that would cause you to be on the police radar. It becomes a police state when normal, law abiding citizens are having their doors caved in and not just those who are involved in activities THAT ARE CRIMINAL.
This assumes that warrants are always issued on factual information, and no mistakes are ever made... Police are human, and subject to mistakes. Execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house (for various reasons- wrong address, bad intel, etc) and it could happen to an innocent person... or maybe there are innocent visitors present?


This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.
Or the assumption that all suspects are guilty?

I'm not "worried" about it happening to me, not much point in that- if it did, it would probably be a couple/few of my dogs that would be shot first...

[TFOGGER]

Well, I guess that's the difference between you and me. I don't worry about it. I would worry more about being eaten alive by sharks in Bailey than worry about the police mistakenly breaking into my home.

But to each his own.

I would be a lot less concerned if I lived in Bailey. In reality, I live in Aurora. Yes, there are home invasions there. Yes, there are cops there that don't know the difference between 16th Avenue and 16th Place (a story for another time). But until such a time as I can afford to become a hermit, that's part of my reality.

No hard feelings, just a different point of view. [Beer]


BTW, I'll prolly be in Bailey at the Cutthroat for breakfast on the 13th, before the Elephant Ride in Grant.....[Beer]

[Mtn.man]

You must register your golf clubs however up here.

[OneGuy67]

Not all are. But, the ones that are, and do, need to be delt with severly, and not Protected at all costs by the union. Because, Like everything else, there are just some people who should not be cops.


I don't disagree Marlin. However, when one uses the term 'union', one must believe all cops are part of a union, which implies a traditional union one thinks of when thinking of General Motors. Police unions are big...back east where unions are big. West of the Mississippi river, law enforcement unions are not what they are back east.

Other than the Denver PPA, Aurora, Pueblo and possibly Colo Spgs (there may be a few more, but I don't keep track of all agencies for that reason), most law enforcement officers belong to their local FOP lodge, which provides nothing other than legal representation funding assistance. Most law enforcement agencies do not have collective bargaining rights or contracts for service.

Like all citizens in this country, officers should be allowed to be represented by an attorney to ensure they receive a fair shake by the system, whether it be the criminal justice system or the city or county or state personnel system. That is what most FOP lodges pay for. Given most do not have collective bargaining or a seat at the table, they cannot argue for the retention or the dismissal of an individual officer.

I agree with you on the premise there are people who should not be cops. My police academy graduated 30 people and only 18 or so of us got jobs. Out of that 18, only about 10 are still on the job after nearly 20 years. Some got out for disciplinary issues, some for family issues, some just didn't like the job.

I also agree that those agencies who do have a seat at the table do protect the bad eggs (Denver PD) and that needs to stop. The only way it will is a revocation of the collective bargaining rights. I sincerely don't know how that would be done in Denver, but other agencies have gotten their citizens to vote to allow them collective bargaining rights and the citizens there could revoke them as well.

[OneGuy67]

This assumes that warrants are always issued on factual information, and no mistakes are ever made... Police are human, and subject to mistakes. Execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house (for various reasons- wrong address, bad intel, etc) and it could happen to an innocent person... or maybe there are innocent visitors present?

Once again, there is the belief the cops are lying on affidavits to the judges or mistakes are made that show officers to be grossly incompetent. Really? You do realize the level of trouble an officer can get into if a judge finds out you lied on and swore to a false affidavit? Mistakes can and do happen and I know of one search warrant in Durango that one of my co-workers was associated with, but did not engage or participate in the execution of that was the wrong house. The house was correctly identified in the warrant, but the officers went to the wrong house. Cost that agency about $20,000. Rightly so.

However, search warrants and their executions are like plane crashes in that there are a thousands of flights every day that take off and land without incident, but the one that doesn't makes the news and causes unneccesary concern over airplane safety.

As for suspects being guilty? Generally speaking, yes. If I, through my extensive years of experience and training, identify you as being the suspect of a crime and I present a case to the DA's office indicating that, in my mind, you are guilty. Whether or not that plays out in a court is another thing. I cannot control what the DA decides to prosecute or not.

[68Charger]

Once again, there is the belief the cops are lying on affidavits to the judges or mistakes are made that show officers to be grossly incompetent. Really? You do realize the level of trouble an officer can get into if a judge finds out you lied on and swore to a false affidavit? Mistakes can and do happen and I know of one search warrant in Durango that one of my co-workers was associated with, but did not engage or participate in the execution of that was the wrong house. The house was correctly identified in the warrant, but the officers went to the wrong house. Cost that agency about $20,000. Rightly so.

I think you're a little overly sensitive here- I never said, or even directly implied that I believe an officer would deliberately lie to get a warrant... and I certainly didn't use phrases even remotely like "grossly incompetent" Could they be lied to? Could he/she use the below assumption of guilt to jump to conclusions he/she shouldn't? They're human, after all...


As for suspects being guilty? Generally speaking, yes. If I, through my extensive years of experience and training, identify you as being the suspect of a crime and I present a case to the DA's office indicating that, in my mind, you are guilty. Whether or not that plays out in a court is another thing. I cannot control what the DA decides to prosecute or not.
This kind of thinking can incrementally lead to a lapse in judgment that could get an innocent person killed... The road to hell is paved with good intentions... stack up a few smaller mistakes made in different places, even by different people, and you get a travesty of justice.

I'm not trying to lecture, or bash... just debating...

[SA Friday]

Wow, I get busy in school again, and I miss out on pages of a thread like this. So, OK...

The 21' rule is if your gun is holstered, period.

Posse Comitatus has NOTHING to do with this warrant, scenario, act, shooting, politics of it, the basis of the act itself or should have never even been mentioned in this thread. Having been a Federal Agent for the Air Force, and a degree in criminal Justice, I'm thinking I have a better grasp on this than whoever mentioned it before; unless you've got Judege advocate time under your belt.

I've never seen a ninja suit with the word POLICE in blazing yellow on it before... Guess I missed that Terintino movie or something. Also, they didn't willy-nilly their self-identification in the video either. I'm pretty sure they were police, and pretty sure they were executing a search.

I can think of one really good reason for a no-knock warrant. I don't like getting my ass shot off because I have to announce to some previously violent slack jawed dick-head with a machine gun that I'm coming into his house to do a search. I don't like no-knocks, and never have even as a cop. If one was warranted to be used, I never wanted to be a part of the entry team. Federally, they are MFers to justify and if you could, it was better to just take the guy down somewhere else if all possible. With that said, I would never, ever say I can think of only one reason for this capability. That's just ignorant and short-sighted.

Afraid of having higher taxes because the city got sued? Cops lives are cheaper, the payoff is cheaper than possibly losing in court. What if the cop sued because he was placed in unnecessarily high levels of danger because a no-knock was disallowed? Not to mention the fact it indirectly states a cops life is worth less than possibly getting sued. Bad arguement.

Having been in a few entries, I have to admit, this cop was really fast on the trigger. As soon as you can visually comprehend what is happening in the video, he shoots. There are two people alive on this planet right now that can be very thankful I wasn't that fast on the bang lever. My personal opinion that the firing occurred way too fast based on the video. With that said, I have no background info on the entry or the players in this event other than narcotics as mentioned. I am highly suspect of the lack of any information concerning prior acts of violence and weapons concerning this no-knock. The media never omits info to the betterment of their articles, right?

How many successful no-knock warrants have you all read about in the papers, seen on youtube, or watch about on TV? When they do happen, the news simply states a search warrant was executed... No need to give info that isn't going to sell the TV time. You think you might only hear about "the gunman had a 30 round magazine" when it's printable? And yet "those bastards" always want to ban high cap mags when shit like this happens.

"Just one bad shoot in a no-knock is enough to stop all of them." Hey, this is big-boy really-real world shit being discussed here... Pick a scenario concering the following factors: society, drug. Someone is going to die. No matter what decision is made on the right way to handle it, someone is going to die as a direct result of that decision. Legalize all drugs, stop the war of drugs, fight the war on drugs... Some innocent person is gonna get smoked because of it. It's just the baggage that comes along with drugs.

[OneGuy67]

I think you're a little overly sensitive here- I never said, or even directly implied that I believe an officer would deliberately lie to get a warrant... and I certainly didn't use phrases even remotely like "grossly incompetent" Could they be lied to? Could he/she use the below assumption of guilt to jump to conclusions he/she shouldn't? They're human, after all...

This kind of thinking can incrementally lead to a lapse in judgment that could get an innocent person killed... The road to hell is paved with good intentions... stack up a few smaller mistakes made in different places, even by different people, and you get a travesty of justice.

I'm not trying to lecture, or bash... just debating...

No, I'm not being overly sensitive. I do tire of the police bash mentality that is presented here most days. Our bigger bashers haven't really commented on the thread; they must be busy. Most don't pass the opportunity to take a swipe at the cops here.

"Grossly incompetent" are my words and weren't a phrase taken from you.

Officers could certainly be lied to. Happens every day, all day. People on this forum advocate the lying to cops in everyday contacts with them. The thing is, you can't go to a judge and say "Judge, I need a warrant to search 68Charger's home because Irving told me he might have some heroin." You have to do some legwork; you have show how the information is accurate, how the residence is involved, how the suspect is known, what actions prompted a reasonable person to believe the suspect is involved in the criminal activity, how accurate information provided to you in the past from this informant is, etc. Otherwise, any idiot with a vendetta could get the police to search or arrest people they don't like.

My kind of thinking is how law enforcement operates. You identify a suspect through the evidence and you present a case to the DA. Every case I present to the DA for prosecution, I KNOW the suspect is guilty of the crime(s). I not only meet my required threshold of 'probable cause', but I meet the DA's threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

I'm trying to educate, not bash.

[StagLefty]

We all know Irving is a poser-he never has the heroin he says he has or 68charger has [ROFL1]

[68Charger]

No, I'm not being overly sensitive. I do tire of the police bash mentality that is presented here most days. Our bigger bashers haven't really commented on the thread; they must be busy. Most don't pass the opportunity to take a swipe at the cops here.
fair enough, it's the internet- but not everyone presenting an opposing viewpoint is attacking you...



"Grossly incompetent" are my words and weren't a phrase taken from you.

Officers could certainly be lied to. Happens every day, all day. People on this forum advocate the lying to cops in everyday contacts with them. The thing is, you can't go to a judge and say "Judge, I need a warrant to search [B]68Charger's home because Irving told me he might have some heroin." You have to do some legwork; you have show how the information is accurate, how the residence is involved, how the suspect is known, what actions prompted a reasonable person to believe the suspect is involved in the criminal activity, how accurate information provided to you in the past from this informant is, etc. Otherwise, any idiot with a vendetta could get the police to search or arrest people they don't like.

I understand, which is why I make the comment about incremental mistakes...multiple small mistakes could lead to a bad warrant execution... they may be uncommon, but watching the video is disturbing if you put yourself (but not as a criminal) in his shoes...
Between that, and some LEO's comments here that they feel it was a good shoot, and I want to beef up security- not because I have anything to hide, but because I'd rather make sure I KNOW it's the police, no-knock warrant or not. With all the chaos during such an event, and with the dogs that I have, chances are I'd be holding a weapon when the door broke down- not sure I could drop it quick enough to ID the invaders as police before they shoot me.


My kind of thinking is how law enforcement operates. You identify a suspect through the evidence and you present a case to the DA. Every case I present to the DA for prosecution, I KNOW the suspect is guilty of the crime(s). I not only meet my required threshold of 'probable cause', but I meet the DA's threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

I'm trying to educate, not bash.

You're identifying your level of conviction/resolve at the time of prosecution- AFTER you've already executed the warrant, and acquired the evidence from the search... just sayin'...
I could play 'what if', but I think you'll get where I'm coming from...

[Irving]

Couple things here.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that no-knock raids can only be served during certain day light hours? Don't the police usually kick down doors at like 7:01am? If this is true, then there is a pretty clear cut answer to the question of "What do you do if someone kicks down your door at 2:00am. OneGuy can probably clarify this for us.

2) So it's okay for the trained officer to mistake a golf club for a sword and take a minor criminal's life, but it's not okay for the criminal to raise a golf club at a stranger/s breaking into his house unexpectedly? Let's try to keep things in perspective here. Mistakes were potentially made on both sides, but only the officer is excused? The other guy died and no big deal because he might have "made a bad decision?"

3) Oneguy: I'm sorry I can't find a better example, as I'm sure this is only a partial story, as was pointed out in the thread. However, I submit this link as an answer to the statement that you can't just tell a judge some made up BS and get a warrant. You weren't here the last time I posted it. I think the important stuff starts happening around page 5 or so. I don't post there any more. I'd at least like your opinion about it. I don't think he was ever charged with anything and don't really remember.
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/threads/70826-what-to-do-about-a-bad-neighbor?highlight=swat

[OneGuy67]

Couple things here.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that no-knock raids can only be served during certain day light hours? Don't the police usually kick down doors at like 7:01am? If this is true, then there is a pretty clear cut answer to the question of "What do you do if someone kicks down your door at 2:00am. OneGuy can probably clarify this for us.

2) So it's okay for the trained officer to mistake a golf club for a sword and take a minor criminal's life, but it's not okay for the criminal to raise a golf club at a stranger/s breaking into his house unexpectedly? Let's try to keep things in perspective here. Mistakes were potentially made on both sides, but only the officer is excused? The other guy died and no big deal because he might have "made a bad decision?"

3) Oneguy: I'm sorry I can't find a better example, as I'm sure this is only a partial story, as was pointed out in the thread. However, I submit this link as an answer to the statement that you can't just tell a judge some made up BS and get a warrant. You weren't here the last time I posted it. I think the important stuff starts happening around page 5 or so. I don't post there any more. I'd at least like your opinion about it. I don't think he was ever charged with anything and don't really remember.
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/threads/70826-what-to-do-about-a-bad-neighbor?highlight=swat


First things first, Stu. Are you the 'Stu' on that forum with 26,000 posts? Holy cow! Between this forum and that forum, you are living on these forums!

Some states have limitations on the execution of warrants such as whether they can be executed at night or day. Colorado does not. When I was with the DEA task force, we would execute our warrants around 4 AM as the suspects tended to finally go to bed then. The decision of when to execute the warrant depends on a lot of factors such as crime involved, players involved, criminal histories, weapons, violent tendencies, etc. Nowadays, I don't do as much drug work, so the warrants I execute, I tend to do in the daytime and do it in a way that mimics the tv shows.
Pretty casual.

Not sure what you are trying to ask with the second question...

Now, about your friend Grey from the other forum. What he photographed is the warrant face sheet that needs to be left at the residence if a house is searched. That's the piece of paper which identifies what is being searched for, what is being searched and the reason for the search. There are 'four corners' to a search warrant. What is being searched for, what is being searched, why its being searched and the 'reasonable man' information for the authorizaton of the search. The additional documents of the search warrant is filed with the court as evidenced by the search warrant number of 09SW86, which means it was the 86th search warrant number issued in Douglas County as of that date, April 14, 2009. Unless sealed by order of the judge, the warrant is public record. You could go down and get a copy of it at the Douglas County court house. There should also be a 'return', which is a notice of what the search uncovered or what was seized that has to be filed with the clerk as well. Grey should have received an evidence form indicating what items were seized, if any.

Read the description of the house. Pretty detailed. Required to ensure the officer gets the right house. The search warrant was for cocaine and cocaine derivatives and marijuana and marijuana derivatives, evidence of drug dispensing paraphernalia, evidence of property ownership or control, evidence of storage facilities. Given his little Obama Cannabis avatar, wanna bet he sold some marijuana to someone?

Inside the Affidavit, you would find the information that led the judge to sign the warrant. They wouldn't be able to just take the word of an informant and go forth and get a warrant for marijuana, especially in that time and now, of all the marijuana law upheaval. The warrant needs to be reviewed by the D.A.'s office prior to approaching a judge and the D.A. wouldn't have signed off on a simple marijuana buy. Carol Chambers, the 18th Judicial D.A., requires her office review all search and arrest warrants prior to going to a judge for their review and signature, if applicable.

The officers wouldn't have taken the word of an informant that he bought dope there. There are steps taken to record the transaction and ensure the transaction is done according to court accepted police procedure. He may have sold some drugs to an informant at a different location (a meet) and the officers established he never went anywhere else but his residence before and after the sale, which would indicate he might be keeping his supply at the residence.

If officers went to Grey's work and arrested him, then he had a warrant for his arrest or they found evidence at his residence to arrest him for.

This is what I can say about this event. South Metro is a pretty upstanding cooperative organization that has officers from a number of different agencies like Arapahoe and Douglas Counties, Parker, Englewood, Greenwood Village, Littleton and Castle Rock PD's. If the Douglas SWAT team was involved in the execution of the warrant, then my brother was there as he is on that team. I may ask him about it.

Other than that, it would be pure speculization on my part without having the opportunity of reading the Affidavit and the Attachment "A" of the search warrant.

Hope that answers your questions, Stu. If not, PM me and we'll get together sometime and discuss it over an adult beverage.

[Irving]

I'm responding before I'm reading your response. That person is not my friend. I've pretty much cut all ties with that website and most everyone I met from there. I racked up those posts over a period of about 9 years, when I had a lot more time to do so. I'd say I've got an easy 45,000 posts all over the internet though.

Let me read what you wrote and get back to you. I just wanted to say something because I'm trying to get move on from that website.


Okay, I read your thread. Lots of good info. What I want to know is, do you think it is at all fishy that his neighbor tells him that he's going to get the cops to raid his place, then it actually happens? I don't remember the thread all that well, but it seemed to me that the neighbor claimed to have ties within the police department. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear shady dealings that member was involved in. Thieves are a BIG problem on websites like that (I actually laugh when people complain about OUR for sale forum. Try having a significant percentage of all the ads on here being stolen goods from the local community!), and I once had him do some work on my car, and as I left his house, he commented that he was going to go buy some parts from some local thieves he knew! If I seemed upset about the raid then, it was because I was under the impression that it was done under less than perfect circumstances, not because I feel bad for the guy.

[OneGuy67]

What I want to know is, do you think it is at all fishy that his neighbor tells him that he's going to get the cops to raid his place, then it actually happens? I don't remember the thread all that well, but it seemed to me that the neighbor claimed to have ties within the police department.

I don't know. Definitely coincidental. If I read it correctly, Grey also stated he was friends with one or more of the Parker PD cops. So...I don't know. I would have to read the reports. I would definitely be interested in the recordings.