Best Personal Defense Ammo for .380 ACP

[tonantius]

Hi, all!

What are your opinions on the best round for personal defense in .380 ACP?

Thanks

[ghettodub]

I used Winchester Ranger hollows in mine, and had good luck with it

[275RLTW]

Hi, all!

What are your opinions on the best round for personal defense in .380 ACP?

Thanks

...the one that feeds reliably in your gun and groups well for you. Not to sound like a smart ass but without knowing where the bullet will impact, at what angle, what the threat will be wearing, etc...there is no exact way to determine the best will be. Any of the modern hollowpoints sold today should suffice. I would avoid "gun show specials," new experimental rounds, and reloads. Stick with the common Remington, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc and you'll be fine. Remember, shot placement is more important and any bullet is better than nothing.

As a more direct answer, I've used 95gr Remington Golden Sabers on small whitetailled deer and had 1 shot kills to the head. Only .380 terminal ballistics I have.

[DeusExMachina]

Hunting with a .380 is impressive!

[hurley842002]

I have ZERO experience with anything in .380, however I have done a bit of research with the intent to someday own a nice little pocket pistol in .380. Much of the stuff I've read from different sources, says a good cast round is a good choice, as it ensures adequate penetration, possibly like the 100gr Buffalo Bore linked below:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

That would surely get decent penetration, but again, I have zero experience with the .380 (haven't even shot one), and my suggestion is only from the small amount of research I have done. Like others have said, reliability in your firearm, and shot placement, trump any wonder bullet. Good luck with your decision.

[spyder]

We use the Buffalo Bore +P JHP. The numbers produced are pretty impressive for a 380 round. The only thing you need to look at is if your gun can handle the extra load. If it can't, I would reccomend Extreme Shock's Fang Face bullet, those are what I have for my 40's and 45's. These are you two best rounds hands down for the 380.
Here is a link to the Fang Face in 380: http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=72&idp=14&his=0|14&cart_id=2269592.7520
http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h403/asrspyder/SANY0214.jpg
NM_USFY45xs&feature=related

[tonantius]

I don't think that my handguns are rated for +P. The Extreme ammo looks interesting.

Thanks for the info.

[Jherexx]

Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points (GDHP)

[mrfish83]

If over penetration is a concern (I know... you said 380), the extreme shock air freedom rounds (AFRs) are great. Although I've never tried them in a 380, only 9mm and 45. In both the 9 and 45, most of the bullet mass will not go through a sheet of drywall if you miss your target. Anything harder than a sheet of drywall (i.e. brick, concrete, steel, thick glass, etc) would cause the bullet to completely fragment. The beauty of the round is what does happen when you hit a water filled type target. All of the energy is dumped into approximately 4-6" of penetration. I did my own testing with milk jugs backed by drywall, and compared several types of bullets. For carrying in populated areas, I go with the AFRs (9mm). That being said, I'll switch to gold dots (HPs) when up in the mountains, or hiking.

[Byte Stryke]

Here is a link to the Fang Face in 380: http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=72&idp=14&his=0|14&cart_id=2269592.7520 (http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=72&idp=14&his=0%7C14&cart_id=2269592.7520)

OH

EMM

GEEEE!


They look like "Cop-Killer" Boolits!!!

Tink of teh chiwdwens!

[/sarcasm]


Seriously though, an interesting looking round.
wish I had the cash to test them out.

[DeusExMachina]

Um...everything I've heard about Extreme Shock points to the Extreme Bullshit.

I mean...look at their homepage. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

They're basically the laughing stock of every SHOT show they're at. They even lie about what agencies use their ammo.

They don't penetrate anywhere close to what they claim.

Edit: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

[hurley842002]

Um...everything I've heard about Extreme Shock points to the Extreme Bullshit.

I mean...look at their homepage. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

They're basically the laughing stock of every SHOT show they're at. They even lie about what agencies use their ammo.

They don't penetrate anywhere close to what they claim.

Edit: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm


^^^ this, However I have no personal experience shooting a bad guy with extreme shock, YMMV.

[spyder]

Um...everything I've heard about Extreme Shock points to the Extreme Bullshit.

I mean...look at their homepage. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

They're basically the laughing stock of every SHOT show they're at. They even lie about what agencies use their ammo.

They don't penetrate anywhere close to what they claim.

Edit: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm
Well I know that I did my own home work. I don't believe everything that I read no matter where it comes from. I was interested in the round so I bought a couple boxes of 45 and 9mm and put it up agains my normal Speer Gold Dot JHP's, Winchester Rangers, and Federal HST's, all JHP's. All the JHP's did pretty much the exact same thing as you could expect. Didn't test them on drywall because they would go through. None of the companies claim that their rounds would stop, and no one expects them to. They did however go through the jugs of water in the same manner with no "wow" effect what so ever. If you have shot a jug of water, you know what I mean. Now as far as the extreme shock's. My rounds never stopped at the first sheet of drywall, 5/16". They did however stop at the second 95% of the time. I didn't have a third piece to see if those others kept going. As far as what they did to everything I shot with them... Kaboom is all I have to say. I wish I had pictures. I used old milk jugs, watermelon's, and 25 pound bags of potters clay. Seeing everything go splat with the extreme shock was neat, but my wifes pottery clay bricks were the best show. They were 8" x 8" x 12" and the hole inside them left by the fang's were, I would say if the back and sides didn't blow out every time, they would have been the size of a huge cantaloupe or one of those small round watermelons (clay expands rather nicely and holds it form for the most part). I know if one of those rounds hits you in the ribcage, stomache, or anywhere else for that matter, the insides behind the entry wound would be worthless gobs of matter after that. The pressure alone to expand that greatly to any of the tissue around the expansion point would create so much trauma, I don't think someone would walk away. I don't know what the person who wrote that page was thinking really. The pressure dumps 4 to 6 inches inside the target. How deep is your heart and lungs? What about your other internal organs? 4 to 6 inches is plenty deep and that is only from the direct expansion. Everything inside you would feel the pressure, when something expands, everything around it has to give also through displacement. That means everything would feel the trauma. You go up against someone with body armor on though, you might want a different round...

I had to edit this because I forgot to say that I didn't try this with the 380, I didn't own one when I tested the rounds however from what I saw out of the 9 and 45's, I don't have any reason to think that the 380's would be anything less than awesome.

[mrfish83]

My advice --- Get out and test a few different brands, and understand the limitations of each.

I've tested FMJs, cheap HPs, Gold Dots, and the Extreme Shock AFRs (9mm and 45). They all performed differently, but this allowed me to make a decision based on my carry requirements.

A note about Extreme Shock: They have a horrible website and overall image in the gun world, but their products are good for certain purposes. The AFR fit what I wanted in carry round for populated areas. If someone has body armor on... I'm not sticking around, regardless what round I'm carrying.

No one round can do everything. Test what you are interested in.

[Byte Stryke]

Um...everything I've heard about Extreme Shock points to the Extreme Bullshit.

I mean...look at their homepage. http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

They're basically the laughing stock of every SHOT show they're at. They even lie about what agencies use their ammo.

They don't penetrate anywhere close to what they claim.

Edit: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

Saved me a bunch of money

:D

[weirjf]

Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points (GDHP)

This, they rated 2nd for penetration under FMJ but had decent expansion. I can't find the article but the pictures stuck my my head.

[ldmaster]

For serious self-defense. But if that's all you have, then that's what you carry! Always bring a gun to a gunfight.

I use Ranger ammo exclusively. I have for a number of years now.

Always always send a few mags downrange with the ammo you intend to carry. You just dont know your point of impact unless you do, which is why I hate the federal stuff in 20rd boxes for triple the price. Nobody buys it to practice with because it's so damn expensive.

A typical 380 ball round is going between 900 and 1000fps, if you're carrying something that goes faster than that then you wont handle the recoil properly under stress.

The only other problem I have with the ballistics for a 380 is that the test barrel is NOT 2 inches like your typical .380, it's 5 inches. So the idea that a 380 is going to come out of a typical 380 with a short barrel as if it had a 5 inch barrel isn't reasonable.

There is no magic ammo. You need something that goes bang every time you pull the trigger and hits the thing you're aiming at.

I have never personally been attacked by a wad of paper, or a milk jug - but will gladly peruse those sites where someone who HAS been attacked by such object runs their tests.

Humans are non-homogenous. We put on clothing, wear belts, turn sideways, intersperse our meat with bone, layer fat over muscle and do all kinds of things to mess up nice and neat milk jug tested ammo.

In fact, with the newly minted statistic that 1 in 5 americans is obese, the odds are that a bad guy trying to hurt you, is going to present you with a penetration problem.

I want a bullet that holds together to penetrate to vital organs and blood vessels. Prefragmented bullets don't pass muster for two reason, they're too expensive to practice with and they would fail against the typical porcine-american they'd be used against. Same goes for terrible-claw brand mankiller extremes (pick one).

If I can't buy it in 50rd boxes, I don't carry it. If it has jacket separation problems, I don't carry it. If it's a "magic" bullet, I laugh because I know they paid a LOT for it, and they dont shoot it because of the cost.

That being said, I love my little AMT 380!

[275RLTW]

For serious self-defense.

I disagree. Not too long ago, a vendor at a gun show here in Loveland shot himself through the leg with a .380 It passed completely through his upper thigh, richoceted off the floor and through a hotel room divider. I know this because I was the one who patched him up before TVEMS arrived. Having gone through the dense tissue of a 6' 200lb plus man and then a partition wall indicates that it would have more than sufficient energy to penetrate meat/bone and then air filled cavities of the upper chest. Expansion is more related to the bullet design so I will leave that factor out. I know the internet commandos here will pipe up saying "this website says this or read this 1700's study" or some other non-related BS. I am reporting my personal experiences, 1st hand, and not skewing them in any way. We all agree, for the most part, that bigger is better and .380 is not the best choice; however, if that that is the caliber/firearm you are comfortable with, then it is the best choice for you. You are 100% correct in that competence and confidence with the firearm are paramount to caliber.


Stay safe...

[YammyMonkey]

First off, that extreme-whatever stuff is crap. You've been warned multiple times.

The main problem with the 380 is that the round is relatively light & slow. Because of the slow speed, hollow points won't consistently expand. If they do expand, they won't penetrate very well because the light bullet will bleed off velocity a lot faster than a heavier round.

The penetration issue really comes into play when we consider that the bullet could have to pass through a larger (muscle or fat) attacker, bone, heavier clothing, or something like an arm or two between you & the attacker's upper center chest.

If I had a 380 I would simply load it with ball & get on with my life. The 380 is a very marginal round. So much so that you can have either mediocre penetration & no expansion or inconsistent expansion & very poor penetration. There is no truly good answer, only what you think will be less bad.

[DeusExMachina]

First off, that extreme-whatever stuff is crap. You've been warned multiple times.

The main problem with the 380 is that the round is relatively light & slow. Because of the slow speed, hollow points won't consistently expand. If they do expand, they won't penetrate very well because the light bullet will bleed off velocity a lot faster than a heavier round.

The penetration issue really comes into play when we consider that the bullet could have to pass through a larger (muscle or fat) attacker, bone, heavier clothing, or something like an arm or two between you & the attacker's upper center chest.

If I had a 380 I would simply load it with ball & get on with my life. The 380 is a very marginal round. So much so that you can have either mediocre penetration & no expansion or inconsistent expansion & very poor penetration. There is no truly good answer, only what you think will be less bad.

This is my concern. Most, if not all, JHP 380 does not meet FBI penetration requirements.

I don't think we'd all be so fortunate as our attacker is our own leg, shooting at that range.

Edit: Found this fun poster for Ranger ammo. http://bellsouthpwp2.net/s/c/scgunguy/2006_Poster_Back.pdf

That just confirmed I'll definitely be CCWing a PM9 with RA9T.

[spyder]

First off, that extreme-whatever stuff is crap. You've been warned multiple times. I've also given personal experience vs reading on the internet. Big difference.

The main problem with the 380 is that the round is relatively light & slow. Because of the slow speed, hollow points won't consistently expand. If they do expand, they won't penetrate very well because the light bullet will bleed off velocity a lot faster than a heavier round. 95 grain bullet in the 380 vs 115 grain bullet in a 9mm. 1175 fps out of a 380 vs 1180 fps out of the norm 9mm. Those are actual numbers, they differ very little.

The penetration issue really comes into play when we consider that the bullet could have to pass through a larger (muscle or fat) attacker, bone, heavier clothing, or something like an arm or two between you & the attacker's upper center chest. I've put 380 rounds through 3mm thick cast iron. I don't think there is much in the human body that would stop it from doing its job.

If I had a 380 I would simply load it with ball & get on with my life. The 380 is a very marginal round. So much so that you can have either mediocre penetration & no expansion or inconsistent expansion & very poor penetration. I assume this comes from your great sources off of the internets eh? Don't get me wrong, I am a 45 guy all the way around, but I bought my wife a 380 for her to carry because I have seen what they can do with my own eyes in person. I don't believe everything I read, especially on the internets. There is no truly good answer, only what you think will be less bad. Or, he could listen to people who might actually have first hand experience. Either or I guess.


This is my concern. Most, if not all, JHP 380 does not meet FBI penetration requirements. I don't know the answer to if Buffalo Bore's ammo passes the FBI penetration requirements. I don't own any ballistic gel either to test with. What I do know is that the 10 inches that the normal non +P ammo goes into ballistics gel is enough to bring down an attacker if you can place your rounds correctly. Practice practice practice.

I don't think we'd all be so fortunate as our attacker is our own leg, shooting at that range.

Edit: Found this fun poster for Ranger ammo. http://bellsouthpwp2.net/s/c/scgunguy/2006_Poster_Back.pdf

That just confirmed I'll definitely be CCWing a PM9 with RA9T.

[DeusExMachina]

I'm sure Buffalo Bore's hardcast +P would do the trick for penetration.

[Busta Prima]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the CorBon DPX (sorry if I missed it, I skimmed my way to here).

I've been researching the best .380 ammo and from what I've gathered, the DPX is probably it.

[steincj]

I'm sure Buffalo Bore's hardcast +P would do the trick for penetration.

I carry this. Never have to worry about whether my HP will expand or whether the HP will hang on the feed ramp.

If the 380 I'm pocketing will be chambered, I chamber a Ranger and follow it with Hardcast.

[YammyMonkey]

Since Spyder is fond of the Buffalo Bore ammo let's look at their info:

115gr +P 9mm from a 4" Glock (shortest bbl they listed & a reasonable example of the 9mm species) runs 1389 fps

95gr +P .380 from a large .380, the Browning BDA runs 1145 fps. Out of a more reasonably sized .380 (the BDA has a 3.75" barrel & is large enough to defeat the purpose of going to a .380 in the first place) they claim 1019 fps.

The 115 gr 9mm is 21% heavier than the 95gr .380. For some perspective, that would be the difference between a 200lb man & a 242 lb man. I would call that significant. (95x1.21=114.95)

The 9mm is also 21% faster than the .380 out of the large Browning. Compared to a more reasonably sized Kel-Tec/Ruger LCP (the gun that started a lot of the new interest in the .380) you get a 36% difference That would be the difference between 65 mph & 78 or 88 mph on the highway. I think our LEO friends would call those significant as well.

Frankly, shooting clay blocks, milk jugs, etc. is pretty meaningless. It doesn't matter if you personally, or someone on the "internets" did it. Those are relatively inelastic media whereas the human body is full of elastic tissues. If you expect a the insides of a human to look like the clay block after being shot you'll be in for a surprise. Calibrated ballistic gelatin is used as the industry standard testing medium for a reason. And no, it's not because 12" in gelatin = 12" in human tissue. The FBI also uses 12" in gelatin as their minimum for a reason. See my previous post for examples.

There are numerous examples of all types of ammo that can do a lot more damage than the .380 failing to stop or even slow down human beings. The three ways to stop someone are by shutting down their CNS, causing them to leak out too much blood, or by convincing them to quit. A shallow wound will likely only affect the third response. You need to get deep enough, accurately enough, to make the first two work. Standard ball is the best bet for that for the .380 without trying to shoot the abusive +P ammo out of a small gun.

As a side note, "doesn't own" is not the same as "has no experience with." ;)

[spyder]

Since Spyder is fond of the Buffalo Bore ammo let's look at their info: Just letting you know, you didn't look at their info at all... That's all.

115gr +P 9mm from a 4" Glock (shortest bbl they listed & a reasonable example of the 9mm species) runs 1389 fps I listed numbers earlier from what is the most abundant 9mm ammo at cabela's here.

95gr +P .380 from a large .380, the Browning BDA runs 1145 fps. Out of a more reasonably sized .380 (the BDA has a 3.75" barrel & is large enough to defeat the purpose of going to a .380 in the first place, my wifes Walther PK380 is 3.66", and still considerably smaller than most 9mm's, more comfortable also, which if you are a serious shooter, you will have to agree is very important) they claim 1019 fps. That's great and all, but BB claims from testing 1175 fps, just a little more.

The 115 gr 9mm is 21% heavier than the 95gr .380. Anyway, not to be a stickler, but your math is wrong. It is an 18% difference. For some perspective, that would be the difference between a 200lb man & a 242 or 236 lb man. I would call that significant. (95x1.21=114.95) You divided the wrong way there. Yes you found out that the 115 is 121% bigger than 95, you are correct. That however doesn't mean it is 21% bigger. 100% is the value in which we are trying for in which 95 is 82% of 115. You swapped your numbers around and divided them wrong to get the value in which you were looking for.

The 9mm is also 21% faster than the .380 out of the large Browning. Again, I used the "normal" 9mm in which is most abundant at the local Cabela's here. Even so, you need to correct your numbers to that of which BB has listed since you didn't do that which if you did, would only be a 16% difference with the faster rounds that you are comparing them to. Compared to a more reasonably sized Kel-Tec/Ruger LCP (the gun that started a lot of the new interest in the .380) you get a 36% difference That would be the difference between 65 mph & 78 or 88 mph on the highway. I think our LEO friends would call those significant as well.

Frankly, shooting clay blocks, milk jugs, etc. is pretty meaningless. It doesn't matter if you personally, or someone on the "internets" did it. Those are relatively inelastic media whereas the human body is full of elastic tissues. If you expect a the insides of a human to look like the clay block after being shot you'll be in for a surprise. You are correct, I would be in for a suprise, especially since potters clay is more dense than human tissue. The watter was mainly for fun but still shows the difference in rounds. Might not be "scientific" as much as fun, but still shows a difference. Calibrated ballistic gelatin is used as the industry standard testing medium for a reason. And no, it's not because 12" in gelatin = 12" in human tissue. The FBI also uses 12" in gelatin as their minimum for a reason. See my previous post for examples.

There are numerous examples of all types of ammo that can do a lot more damage than the .380 failing to stop or even slow down human beings. I don't know if you knew this or not, but people have been shot by 9mm, 45's, and shotguns and still kept on coming at police officers. The three ways to stop someone are by shutting down their CNS, causing them to leak out too much blood, or by convincing them to quit. A shallow wound will likely only affect the third response. Ya, so no matter what it is that you shoot, you better know how to shoot it properly. You need to get deep enough, accurately enough, to make the first two work. Standard ball is the best bet for that for the .380 without trying to shoot the abusive +P ammo out of a small gun. Has anyone that keeps dogging the +P ammo for a 380 ever put some down range? I mean that as a serious question. There is almost, no, lets see, my wife explained it as, absolutely no "real" difference in the feel. I like the way my 120 lb wife says that and then all of the guys on here say it is hard to handle or abusive in your words. Your comments about it make me laugh because there was no difference in the way it felt to me. If the gun you shoot feels like it can't handle it, I guess all I could say is, buy a better gun.

As a side note, "doesn't own" is not the same as "has no experience with." ;)
Along with the rest of this post, again, everyone knows there have been people accidently killed with 22lr's. That said, what makes people think that a 380 couldn't kill you? I would guarantee if you came running at my wife, she would drop your ass at 15, 10, or 5 yards out with her 380. Placement is the key to shooting anyone with any round, that is all there is to it. A 380 will get the job done without a problem in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot a gun. No, it isn't like my 45's where you have a little more leeway as to shot placement, but it will still do the job in a competent shooters hands quite well. I guess I should say, if you can't shoot that great, just buy a desert eagle and shoot away till they stop moving, maybe you will get lucky and hit them. Here are a couple of links to just a few stories of people that have died at the expense of a 380. It seems to be a popular belief that they can't kill people. Even in an untrained hand, they do though.
http://mikek628.blogspot.com/2008/07/lakeland-man-killed-in-robbery.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/5212576/detail.html
http://wheelgun.blogspot.com/2005/09/registered-sex-offender-killed-by.html

[DeusExMachina]

I'm not a crack shot by any means, and I know I would be far from it under stress on a moving target.

Yes, .22LR certainly kills. .380 definitely kills. However, I want to maximize my chances if I don't get that perfect shot or I hit bone, etc.

If you think you can put a round in someone's eye while they are attacking you, why don't you carry a .22?

[275RLTW]

YCPqvW8ycEQ

OK, this is turning into a "my calliber is bigger than yours and passed this special expansion test" fight. We all agree, shot placement is paramount. Yes, bigger is better but placement trumps all. I would rather someone miss me with a .50 than hit me with a .22

To the OP: as stated several times, find what caliber/bullet fits YOU and feeds reliably in YOUR gun. Then get proficient with it. If there was a single "magic" caliber or bullet, there wouldn't be so many to choose from.

[spyder]

I'm not a crack shot by any means, and I know I would be far from it under stress on a moving target.

Yes, .22LR certainly kills. .380 definitely kills. However, I want to maximize my chances if I don't get that perfect shot or I hit bone, etc. Of course.

If you think you can put a round in someone's eye while they are attacking you, why don't you carry a .22? I wish I had the skills to accurately put one through someones eyes if they were coming at me with a weapon. However, to the chest and maybe even the head accurately, yes. Is that good enough for a 22? Maybe, but I'm not comfortable enough to carry just a 22 and I definately wouldn't let my wife carry one for a daily carry.


YCPqvW8ycEQ
I wish I could kill someone with a T-cup, Riddick is a baaaad maaan.
OK, this is turning into a "my calliber is bigger than yours and passed this special expansion test" fight. We all agree, shot placement is paramount. Yes, bigger is better but placement trumps all. I would rather someone miss me with a .50 than hit me with a .22. I agree completely.

To the OP: as stated several times, find what caliber/bullet fits YOU and feeds reliably in YOUR gun. Then get proficient with it. If there was a single "magic" caliber or bullet, there wouldn't be so many to choose from.
All I am trying to get across here for someone asking about ammo, is that the arguement of a 380 isn't good enough, is wrong. Is there a better round for self defense? Of course there is, no one here is arguing that point. Is a 9mm better than a 380? Yes. Can you buy hotter 9mm rounds that make a 380 look even worse in comparison? Yes. Was I trying to argue that the 380 was a better round? No, that would just be dumb. I was just trying to convey that the 380 can, and will get the job done if needed and provided some numbers in comparison to a 9mm to show that it isn't some little "bounce off a leather jacket" or "surface scratch" bullshit. That is all.

[DeusExMachina]

For the record, I was never saying 380 is insufficient. I just have doubts that 380 JHPs are sufficient. And looking at RA380T's performance vs. RA9T as tested by Winchester, I again talked myself out of buying a 380.

[SA Friday]

No handgun round is sufficient. They, by their naure are underpowered, all of them short of the large mag revolver rounds.

Test ammo to find out what feed reliably and shoots accurately. Then practice. It's all that's going to count in the end.

Bang bang bang bang bang (scream like a teen aged girl), repeat and run away. There you go. Self defense 101.

[jmg8550]

How about the Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I have some in .45 and 9mm. Guaranteed expansion, every time.

http://www.hornady.com/store/380-Auto-90-gr-Critical-Defense/

[DeusExMachina]

How about the Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I have some in .45 and 9mm. Guaranteed expansion, every time.

http://www.hornady.com/store/380-Auto-90-gr-Critical-Defense/

Its a cool round. I have a few boxes of it in 9mm. When I had a P238, I had some for it too. But the concern is expansion is going to prevent it from penetrating deep enough.

[jmg8550]

Did you look at the velocity and ft lbs of energy versus let's just say Winchester Super-X in 380? Hornady is far superior. Pretty impressive for a little round. The purpose of a hollow point is to impart as much energy into the target (ie. a living animal or human). A hollow point that goes completely through the or fails to expand is essentially a FMJ round. It imparts very little energy into the target. I personally would want a hollow point to cause as much damage as possible through expansion, and hopefuly stopping inside the intended target. Shock to the body is what stops a would be attacker, not little holes caused by FMJ or lead ball ammo.

[ldmaster]

Whether or not you practice, and can afford to practice, with your carry ammo - regardless of what you choose.

It's a backup gun to a backup gun, which is only used to get to my real gun!

Having carried a lot of backup guns, in general I'd recommend that you get a nickle cased round to help avoid corrosion of the round. A little bit of sweat gets on your brass round and you leave it loaded for a month or more and the day you clean the mag you find all this icky green crud on the round and you question whether it would have fed properly.

I still use the older S&W Nyclad stuff in one of my backups, nickle plated case, nylon encased round - no corrosion to worry about.

It is ideal to clean out your gun weekly, recommended even, but it doesn't always happen. Oxygen and moisture will corrode brass quickly, add a little bit of acidic sweat and it will do it faster. Considering that a lot of people are carrying these little guns in their pocket, or IWB carry, there's just a lot of crud that can weasel it's way into the gun.

[Busta Prima]

I've got a new .380 and I'm carrying it a lot more because it's so easy, and I might otherwise be unarmed so it's better than nothing.

I've been doing a lot of research on the subject of this thread and I really feel you can't use the same ballistic arguments used for larger calibers as you would for the smaller ones. Sure . . . an argument can be made that a 22 will kill but it's usually long after you "need" it, should you ever "need" it. I'm not interested in killing, I'm interested in STOPPING. The smaller the caliber, the MORE you MUST pay attention to bullet design (and of course placement) if you want to STOP the attacker. The smaller the caliber, the harder that's going to be, plain and simple. Independent studies show .45 ball is just as effective as the .45 hollow points. Go down to .40 and ANY hollow point will do great. All the designs and bullet weights produce similar, good results. Go down to 9 and you start having problems and have to pay attention to bullet weight and design. The cops have many documented firefights where they couldn't penetrate auto glass with 9mm and couldn't stop attackers with multiple, good hits. For 9mm, my research led me to Ranger 124 grain T series as being the best. When I got down to .380, it seemed the consensus was the CorBon DPX 80 grain was said to be the best. There was one that came in second but I can't remember now (it wasn't Ranger). There are also lots of arguments about thick clothing so the tests I paid attention to were the ones that tested with layers of material over the gelatin, as well as bare gelatin. I'm sorry I don't have links but there is little data out there to begin with so it shouldn't be too hard to find.

[Coffee]

[YammyMonkey]

I know better than to dive into this, but I'm going to try to clarify a few things for th OP, if he's still watching.

I'm pounding this out on my phone so I may miss a letter, or mistype something. I'm tired & in no mood for proofreading so I apologize in advance.

If someone told me that A is X% larger than B, I would figure that the X% is based on the smaller B number. I someone said that B is Y% slower than A I would figure that the Y% is based on the larger A number. Hence the reason I "showed my work." Even if you reverse the math The numbers are still significant.

The load info all came from Buffalo Bore's website. They listed a few different gun types for the .380 so I included info from the largest (Browning BDA) & the smallest guns listed. I chose the +P version of each load to compare to try to make it as apples to apples as possible. I certainly could have gone the other way & compared a softball .380 to a +P+ 9mm, but that's not very intellectually honest.

The initial comparison between the .380 & 9mm was flawed as I saw it. I was not trying to dredge up some caliber debate, but rather provide a more reasonable perspective as I saw it.

There is a lack of understanding in terms of what happens to the tissues of the human body when they're exposed to trauma. It will suffice to say that clay, water jugs, and even ballistic gelatin are not perfect analogs, but some are much worse than others & can lead people to faulty conclusions.

Finally, I hope the OP & others have gotten some useful info from this thread even if they had to, as usual on the internet, sort through some bad info. Don't take anything that may have life saving, or ending, consequences at face value. Do your own research & consider the information source.

Take care all.

[spyder]

The load info all came from Buffalo Bore's website. They listed a few different gun types for the .380 so I included info from the largest (Browning BDA) & the smallest guns listed. I chose the +P version of each load to compare to try to make it as apples to apples as possible. I didn't compare +P to +P because that was not what I was arguing at all. Like I said, a 9mm is obviously going to win in a comparison, I was just saying how close a +P 380 compared to a normal (not +P) 9mm round was. My comparison was not an apples to apples comparison, that was not my arguement or rather what I was trying to convey. I certainly could have gone the other way & compared a softball .380 to a +P+ 9mm, but that's not very intellectually honest.

The initial comparison between the .380 & 9mm was flawed as I saw it. It was exactly what I was trying to prove. Simply put, a +P 380 is damn close to a normal 9mm. I made the arguement for those that say a 9mm will get the job done, but a 380 will not. I was just trying to show how close the 380 was to the 9mm with the right load, not apples to apples. I was not trying to dredge up some caliber debate, but rather provide a more reasonable perspective as I saw it.

There is a lack of understanding in terms of what happens to the tissues of the human body when they're exposed to trauma. I will have to agree on this one. It will suffice to say that clay, water jugs, and even ballistic gelatin are not perfect analogs, but some are much worse than others & can lead people to faulty conclusions. Exactly, take potters clay still in its shipping bag for instance. It is a little more dense than human tissue, not bone, but soft tissue, yes.

[tonantius]

I am still watching this thread. I thank all of you for your responses.

I have the Remington Golden Saber round which is 102 gr. I need to relook at the ballistics for this round. I orignally bought it because it was the heaviest round available in .380 ACP. But I am rethinking this. I know now that a hollow point round must have a minimum velocity to ensure proper expansion, otherwise it is a virtual FMJ round. So going heavier is not necessarily better. I did not buy a +P round because I was not sure that my three pistols could safely and reliably fire the +P round. I know that the Hornady defense round has the plastic filler that helps with expansion. I defintely want to research that more. I will also look at the other personal defense rounds out there that have been mentioned in this thread.