9 Mm Vs 45 Acp

[Colorado Luckydog]

What would you prefer to carry. A full size 9MM with 18 rounds or a full size 45ACP with 8 rounds.

Please include the reasons for your choice.[Beer]

[Daniel_187]

One of the reasons I shoot 9mm is When I was younger durring the Cliton ban, I would pick up a cheaper than dirt catolog and look at all the Pistol mags and they had ruger p-89 30 rd mags for $14 bucks. I was sold after that. And being a cheap basterd 9mm (at the time) was around 5-6 bucks a box .45 was around $10 per box. Am happy with my 9's but have not had to use it in self-defence, so Am not 100% how it will preform.

[275RLTW]

...the one I shoot best.

I often carry both (not at the same time) depending on my mood for the day, clothing selection, daily activities, etc... Either is sufficient for protection. It's more of a personal choice rather than anything scientific. Of course you'll get the expected responses of "the .45 has more KE, the 9 has a higher capacity magazine," and "just get a hi-cap .45." Just wear what you are comfortable with.

[Byte Stryke]

Considering that I current have a limit on options. I carry a .45 with 13
XDc with an extended Magazine.

this is what I carry, your results may vary.

[agent-smith]

Wow, I've never heard or read of this question being asked before.

This should wrap-up with a decisive answer pretty quickly.

[Irving]

Wow, I've never heard or read of this question being asked before.

This should wrap-up with a decisive answer pretty quickly.

Yeah, I really can't see this going over more than about 3/4 of a page.

[Colorado Luckydog]

Wow, I've never heard or read of this question being asked before.

This should wrap-up with a decisive answer pretty quickly.

I'm not looking for a decisive answer. I'm looking for opinions. Nothing like a smartass new guy!

[Marlin]

10mm.



[Tooth]

[SA Friday]

10mm.



[Tooth]
Saw that comin. Even had the list of posters of narrowed down to about a half dozen or so. Ya, you were high on the list.[Coffee]

[cstone]

Almost 10mm. How about .40S&W? The true middle of the road choice. High capacity, good ballistics, and lots of choices. If you have the money you can always swap barrels and shoot .357 SIG out of the same gun and magazines.

[Marlin]

Saw that comin. Even had the list of posters of narrowed down to about a half dozen or so. Ya, you were high on the list.[Coffee]
[Ban3]

[Marlin]

Almost 10mm. How about .40S&W? The true middle of the road choice. High capacity, good ballistics, and lots of choices. If you have the money you can always swap barrels and shoot .357 SIG out of the same gun and magazines.


Pretty much can do the same thing with the G20. If I lose all my good looks and become rich, I may get the .40 and the .357 barrels for mine.

[Hoopty]

10mm.



[Tooth]

THIS. Might as well have both, high capacity and bigger bullets with lots of power...

As for 9mm vs .45, I don't see a problem with either for protection from humans. I shoot mainly 9mm at the range because it cheap, but if I ever had to shoot at a human I would prefer to be shooting them with a .45. That said, I wouldn't feel underpowered using a 9, as long as you're using good quality HP's...

If I was carrying one for the woods, then I would definitely want to go with something bigger/heavier than the 9mm. I would be using a .40 at a minimum, preferably a .45 or better yet, my G-20 (10mm).

[Marlin]

I could also add, with a 6" barrel for the G20, You are legal to hunt. [Tooth]

[Colorado Osprey]

What would you prefer to carry. A full size 9MM with 18 rounds or a full size 45ACP with 8 rounds.

Please include the reasons for your choice.[Beer]

You really need to read this article:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

That said, I went through what you are going through, post 1986 FBI Miami shoot out.
I was a LEO and we were allowed to carry just about any reliable firearm that we could qualify with as long as it was a .380ACP minimum.

I carried a 6 shot S&W 357 Mag at the time and was switching over to an auto. I had recently been shot in the hip with a 9mm and was seriously against the 9mm because I was so poorly wounded by one. (read didn't even slow me down and only had to take a couple of days off)

My back up at the time was a Springfield Armory Champion in 45ACP.
(Just listing my experience and use of most common calibers)

I ended up going to a Glock G20 in 10mm (15+1 round capacity)
357 mag equivalent in a 15 round capacity

Since then I have sold my 45ACP, 1911's. I still have the 10mm. But I have also picked back up the 9mm. I don't feel under gunned with today's premium 9mm bullet technology.

I know a lot of people like the 45ACP, but I don't. Heavy, low capacity(most). Personally I think it should have retired before the year 2000. There are some relics who just like the old proven, but today there are lots of better choices. Have you looked into the 9x23 Dillon? (10mm necked down to 9mm) It ZINGS!

[SA Friday]

Necked down pistol cases are the devil [Muaha].

To answer the original question, I would have to say which ever I shoot the best. If I shoot them equally well, I prefer big bullets over small bullets. I don't fear the reload with a less capacity mag. The reload is all in the practice.

Talk to a thorasic cavity surgen that lives here in the front range. He's also an avid shooter. He's worked on hundreds of shooting victims. Most of them were shot with small bullets. He doesn't get to work on many shot with the big bullets, they die. The few that make the table, he's said, have massive wounds in comparison.

Thompson and Lagarde bullet test 1904

[Byte Stryke]

[Drill Instructor Voice]

[DrillS]
Listen up sh*theads!


Your Weapon is only as effective as you are.
You must train everyday to be true to your weapon.
Your weapon will NEVER Save your life, YOU will save your life with your weapon.
The capacity of your weapon only needs to equal your number of available targets.
If you fire a round at a target and you miss, you Have let down the man on your left and your right and have become a liability on the battlefield.
The most effective tool you can place on your weapon is training. DISMISSED!
[/Drill Instructor Voice]


:D

[Gcompact30]

13-1 and or 15-1 total 16 rds. GLOCK 21 45ACP

What would you prefer to carry. A full size 9MM with 18 rounds or a full size 45ACP with 8 rounds.

Please include the reasons for your choice.[Beer]

[The Rat]

[Drill Instructor Voice]

[DrillS]
Listen up sh*theads!


Your Weapon is only as effective as you are.
You must train everyday to be true to your weapon.
Your weapon will NEVER Save your life, YOU will save your life with your weapon.
The capacity of your weapon only needs to equal your number of available targets.
If you fire a round at a target and you miss, you Have let down the man on your left and your right and have become a liability on the battlefield.
The most effective tool you can place on your weapon is training. DISMISSED!
[/Drill Instructor Voice]


:D

Agree.

A guy in a pistol/carbine course I went to got shot seven times with a .45ACP and managed to keep the fight going and kill the guy who shot him. I'll take shot placement and training emphasis over caliber any day.

As such, I shoot 9mm. Not only is it cheaper to train with, it's what I've gotten to train for free with at a few various jobs.

[Gcompact30]

Well I guess your right about that [UZI][UZI][UZI][UZI]But two to the body and one to the head, game over brother.


Agree.

A guy in a pistol/carbine course I went to got shot seven times with a .45ACP and managed to keep the fight going and kill the guy who shot him. I'll take shot placement and training emphasis over caliber any day.

As such, I shoot 9mm. Not only is it cheaper to train with, it's what I've gotten to train for free with at a few various jobs.

[cstone]

Well I guess your right about that [UZI][UZI][UZI][UZI]But two to the body and one to the head, game over brother.

Why stop at three? Depending on the number of threats, two to the body, two to the head, then two more to the head, then two more... Shoot till the threat is no longer a threat.

Obviously round placement is key. The only way to get good at round placement is practice, practice, practice. No one can tell another what they should shoot because you should shoot what you are good at and what you can afford to practice with and practice with it often.

If I shot .45 better, and could afford to shoot a few thousand rounds of .45, perhaps that is where I would have gone. If is was practical I would probably just carry a 12 gauge shotgun with alternating 00 and slugs, where the shot placement is important and the stopping power is obvious.

Some like Hondas, and some like Peterbuilts. I don't want to be hit by either.

[porfiriozg]

agreed .40s&w the way to go


Almost 10mm. How about .40S&W? The true middle of the road choice. High capacity, good ballistics, and lots of choices. If you have the money you can always swap barrels and shoot .357 SIG out of the same gun and magazines.

[Hoopty]

agreed .40s&w the way to go

But like he said, its MIDDLE of the road- with the 10mm you get the high power AND high capacity, no trade-offs here... [Weight]

[cstone]

But like he said, its MIDDLE of the road- with the 10mm you get the high power AND high capacity, no trade-offs here... [Weight]

No doubt, 10mm and .45 ACP are great rounds (you just know there is a but coming)...

If you are buying factory JHP, almost all 10mm will cost twice as much per round than .40S&W. In fact, .45 ACP in JHP is usually easier to find and cheaper than 10mm. No doubt someone will come along and prove me wrong. Its been known to happpen. [Flower]

That said, shoot what you shoot best. There are plenty of choices and choices are good.

[Hoopty]

You definitely got that right, 10mm ammo is downright expensive. Reloading is your best bet when it comes to that. Sometimes you can get lucky looking online but that's really not too common. [Help]

Like I stated earlier, I shoot mostly 9mm at the range because its cheap. [Tooth] With the Glock 20 you can get a .40 conversion barrel and save a ton by practicing mostly with that...

[Marlin]

If you are buying factory JHP, almost all 10mm will cost twice as much per round than .40S&W.



No,it is the same price, you just get half as much 10 as you do .40.



[LOL]

[TDYRanger]

.40 S&W is totally kissing your sister. Not as fast as 9mm not as much whack as .45 and is pricey to boot. If you got the dough run .45 if you don't run 9mm. For me personally I would rather have the extra time at the range and more ammo on target. Shoot a ton, shoot good, shoot 9mm

[Ranger353]

I have had the opportunity to attend some excellent LE firearm instructor courses taught by retired LE and FBI agents. In all three courses the question has come up for discussion, usually from some young police officer or deputy that has been shooting Glocks his entire 3 year career.

Now, it's important to note that the FBI is really into statistics, this is one of the things that they do really well. They gather facts and metrics from all over the U.S. and publish there findings. They are usually about 2 years behind on the analysis but the results are always interesting. It is also important to note that these published reports and studies always lack a solid "And so what?" summary or assessment of what it all means.

One of the instructors, who was a retired LEO, had helped gather metrics for one of those studies. The way he gathered the "metrics" was to observe the autopsy of victims of death by firearms. He would use steal rods to push through the entry and exit wounds and measure the displacement of body tissue and bone. The Coroner makes the determination on the cause of death and probability of which round or rounds were the fatal shot(s). Then based on that determination this FBI Agent would use the rods, displacement measurements, caliber, weight and types of rounds used to list on the report to send back east to Quantico VA.

He said without any hesitation that the most lethal round was the .40S&W. Most of us .45ACP 1911 guys stirred in our chairs because this is obviously something that needed some explaining. Now before you start flaming me with rebuttals, this was based on the statistics of the number of rounds fired against the number of rounds that were determined to be the shots that caused the death. Understanding that baseline, the statistics were probably off based on the large number of LEOs that use .40S&W handguns to begin with. I really would have liked to see an index based on caliber rather than just on the general cause of death.

Anyway, for what it's worth (not much I know), that's my 2-cents worth.

[Byte Stryke]

I Enjoy the .40S&W
I run them through my KP944 and have allot of fun with them.
Not quite as much kick as the .45ACP but WAY more available.
I can go into Wally world and get a Large range pack of .40 on the cheap when they dont have any .45 at all.

[Troublco]

10mm.

My favorite.


I could also add, with a 6" barrel for the G20, You are legal to hunt. [Tooth]

Why, yes. I have a Storm Lake 6" barrel for my G20. My G20 has replaced my Smith 686 as my GP gun. I bought it for handgun pig hunting originally, even though I didn't much care for glocks. It has become my favorite all-around handgun. It's a bit large for CCW, though. Right now I carry a SIG P225 because it's small enough, ultra reliable, and I have it. I've decided that I'm going to get a G29 for CCW use sometime in the next year, and then that will be my primary CCW.

Otherwise, I'd have a G30, G36, or compact XD45.

[Busta Prima]

I'm not looking for a decisive answer. I'm looking for opinions. Nothing like a smartass new guy!

Yeah but you gotta admit that was funny!

People on all forums I frequent are sensitive to the never ending debate on calibers, ESPECIALLY those two (9mm vs. 45). In fact, the industry answered with a perfect compromise . . . the .40 cal.

But to give you the opinions and answers you seek: Years ago I would have chosen the 9mm. It's hard enough carrying a gun let a lone a spare mag and while statistics prove a .45 octo-mag is enough, I like having the many more rounds a modern 9mm provides! But lately I've been leaning toward the larger calibers. I've read some disturbing things about 9mm's performance in actual shoot outs. This is from police and FBI data . . . things like their sometimes inability to penetrate a car window and multiple center of mass hits not stopping a large and/or aggressive (drugged up) assailant. If I was only able to choose between those two, today it would be the .45. However if I can add my own choice, I'm going with the .40. The cops are not having any of those issues mentioned above and I still get double digit rounds in the same size package.

[Weight]

[ldmaster]

I have a G20 and G29, the G20 was my first glock. I found a case of Norma 170gr and 200gr a decade back, and that's my carry ammo. I handload otherwise.

When I first got the G29 I was ready to be brutalized by the recoil in the smaller gun. I was more than surprised that the felt recoil in the 29 was LESS than the G20.

As it turns out the slide itself is beefier, heavier. The recoil assembly is a double spring setup, lighter primary spring and heavier secondary. But I think the heavy slide is the culprit for the lighter recoil.

I've had and sold a lot of pistols since I got the G20 in 1996, and that gun is the only one I still have. I have a jarvis match barrel in it and a six inch hunting barrel i rarely use. I found 8k of nickle plated brass from somewhere back when the FBI was using the 10mm, and handload that for practice.

You're going to wonder why you didn't buy the G29 first.

[Scanker19]

9mm will allow you to practic more for us poor people. Shot placement is where it is.

"No one likes to Leak"

So with that I'd rather have a pink .380 that says C**ksucker on the slide than nothing at all.

[DFBrews]

9mm will allow you to practic more for us poor people. Shot placement is where it is.

"No one likes to Leak"

So with that I'd rather have a pink .380 that says C**ksucker on the slide than nothing at all.

I could see how that argument works if you do not reload i picked up a single stage press and reload my plinking .45 for less than 9mm white box sure it takes a while but i usually reload while surfing here or watching tv. for 1000 rds of 230 grain fmj My cost is $119 for bullets $27 for primers and lets say $8 dollars for powder. so for 155 dollars plus 7 hrs of my time spread through out the month i have 1000 rounds customized for my gun to shoot. white box in 9mm is 300 at 14.99 a box

[Colorado Luckydog]

I decided to go with the 45acp. I just posted my 9mm in the classifieds. Thanks for the input.[Beer]

[CO-Exprs]

When everything is said and done the guy who hits first is going to win the fight. More people have died by 9mm than any other full power cartridge and by a long margin. What really matters is you and what you can handle. Conventional wisdom says carry the largest calliber you can handle "well". A compact carry pistol in fight stopping 45 does you no good if you can't hit with it decisively and that goes for the fast follow up shot as well. I bought an officers model 45 year ago. When I went to the range I found I couldn't hit anything with it because the recoil had me flinching so bad. I've since learned how to shoot and manage recoil 1000% better and just recently switched from a G19/23 to a Wilson Compact CQB. I was really nervous the first time I took it to the range because of pior experience, but found that 50k rounds down range can really change a fella and his abilities. I now feel completely confident that I made the right decision in switching to my 45. I've seen the balistic gel cavities for 9, 40 and 45. They are all devistating. Bigger is usually better, but only if you can shoot it well. You're performance as a shooter is really the key factor here not how big your rocks are. The reason this debat is so humorous is because it really isn't about caliber, but rather ability.

[Ranger353]

When everything is said and done the guy who hits first is going to win the fight. More people have died by 9mm than any other full power cartridge and by a long margin. What really matters is you and what you can handle. Conventional wisdom says carry the largest calliber you can handle "well". A compact carry pistol in fight stopping 45 does you no good if you can't hit with it decisively and that goes for the fast follow up shot as well. I bought an officers model 45 year ago. When I went to the range I found I couldn't hit anything with it because the recoil had me flinching so bad. I've since learned how to shoot and manage recoil 1000% better and just recently switched from a G19/23 to a Wilson Compact CQB. I was really nervous the first time I took it to the range because of pior experience, but found that 50k rounds down range can really change a fella and his abilities. I now feel completely confident that I made the right decision in switching to my 45. I've seen the balistic gel cavities for 9, 40 and 45. They are all devistating. Bigger is usually better, but only if you can shoot it well. You're performance as a shooter is really the key factor here not how big your rocks are. The reason this debat is so humorous is because it really isn't about caliber, but rather ability.

+1. Spot on. (But bigger is better, in almost everything! [Tooth])

[hip55]

What was that statistic about the amount of rounds fired in a civilian firefight?

3 or 4 rounds? 10-20 feet away from each other?

With that in mind, I'd go with either 40 S&W or 45 ACP as capacity isn't a factor. BUT it's always good to have more than you need....

[Demodave]

sorry to break the trend.

Handguns suck.

They are notoriously poor fight stoppers.

Why then argue about which works the best when in reality none do?

The point is that they are much easier to carry than a rifle or shotgun.

You can study stat's all day, all night, and read x vs y.

Handguns suck, caliber doesn't matter. Central Nervous system shots will stop from the point of impact south. Brain stem shots stop immediately. Doesn't matter on cartridge.

If you want to stop a fight, carry a few claymores and set them up in an appropriate array.

til then, carry your handgun cause it's easy to hide and shoot until the threat stops.

Practice on your techniques!
Practice
Practice
Practice...

[FireMoth]

If you need firepower, your handgun is the WRONG tool for the job.

Just remember that Simo Hayha got shot in the face with what has been reported to be an 'explosive round' allegedly from some sort of light anti armor rifle... and lived. What chance has a pistol got of guaranteeing a 1 shot stop?

So, i highly recommend using the ammo your fire arm is chambered in ;)

[jreifsch80]

if you need firepower carry a judge ;)

[Byte Stryke]

if you need firepower carry a judge ;)

Just be sure to get one that doesn't eat allot of McDonald's/Pizza hut.
Could twist your back or something.



[/kidding]

[FireMoth]

if you need firepower carry a judge ;)

Yeah, nothing like 5 rounds of low velocity shot in a package the size of a sub gun to stop a fight...

[SA Friday]

Yeah, nothing like 5 rounds of low velocity shot in a package the size of a sub gun to stop a fight...

And 45LC factory is almost the same as shooting 45ACP. Especially with the short barrel and cylinder gap. Never understood the concept of that gun myself. Too big for so little.

[Byte Stryke]

And 45LC factory is almost the same as shooting 45ACP. Especially with the short barrel and cylinder gap. Never understood the concept of that gun myself. Too big for so little.


But they named it "The Judge" So it MUST be cool...
[ROFL1]

[SA Friday]

But they named it "The Judge" So it MUST be cool...
[ROFL1]

Well since you brought it up, I never understood the name choice either. Why would you advocate the thought process of self defense as judgement by naming a gun "judge". Nothing good can come from that. I mean its like an attorney's litigative wet-dream. I don't like the fact stuff like this is relevant, but it is what it is. Look at the demise of a basic hollow point bullet because it was called a black talon.

[CapLock]

I've only gotten to shoot up a few cars, but I wouldn't want auto glass to protect me from a 9mm round. Found a "shootin" car out in the desert that couldn't have had 100 dollars worth of ammo in it yet. Was an old 78ish Ford Camper special "IE" thick steel. Even low velocity 38 FMJ rounds would pass through both doors. Granted was a pretty vertical windshield but went through that and the bench seat, and the cab behind the seat and through the bed. Stopped leaving a big dent on the inside of the tail gate.

[earplug]

230 45 acp hard ball against what ever flavor 9mm Nato or ?
Two firearms pointed at each other with the bullets impacting each other.
The first bullet that backs up loses.
After this can we talk about rifling twist on thirty caliber bullets for 165 grain.
Or whats the best way to remove machine marks to prevent LEO tracing of ejected brass.
Assuming you have replaced the barrel.
How about, at what velocity barrel length does M193 become ineffective. At what distance. I need a simple chart. Barrel length and velocity plus distance.

[FireMoth]

You forgot the pictorial on how to make a retention lanyard out of telephone cord for your katana... Noob ;)

[lllRorlll]

i love my 9
first round i shot out of it, was gangster sideways... just cause

[bobbyfairbanks]

Ya I like to throw my bullets with my gun. Some times I even get them to bend in the air.[ROFL1]

[FNFAN]

When I had to abide by an agency decision on what round would be carried I defaulted to the .45

If I can choose my own round I'm happy with any of the +p+ 9mm's in the 115-127gr range. Winchester Ranger 127's and Federal 9PBLE are my preference.

[G__Fred]

It depends on the objective. If you are looking for CCW, the smaller the better. If you are looking for "the fun gun" find a good fit for the hand and ammo prices you can live with. My "fun gun" is a SR9, a little big for my CCW. My CCW is a PF-9 w/2 mags (& hot re-loads). I recommend a lot of practice with the CCW, since if you have to draw, IT WILL NOT BE IN A FUN SITUATION!

[Bill]

There is talk that law enforcement that switched in the 1980 1990's to 9mm and 40S&W for more fire power 15-18 rounds and up. found that there is no
Substitute for takedown power. So now in the last few years they are switching back to the 45ACP

So I would say takedown power 45acp

[Gcompact30]

My glock 21 carrys 13 +1 and 2+2 makes it 15 and 1. So I think I would carry the 45 if I was looking for stopping power. But 9mm will work to if you have shot placement center mass or in the head. Basically shooters preference right :-)....

What would you prefer to carry. A full size 9MM with 18 rounds or a full size 45ACP with 8 rounds.

Please include the reasons for your choice.[Beer]

[Tinelement]

I carry all 3! Glock 23, Kimber pro carry, and H&K p30 in 9mm. All depends on what I'm doing and where I'm going. Pretty comfortable with my 9 anywhere with a correctly placed kill shot! Also will carry a LCP main or back up. Always have a problem with "knock down power", a properly placed shot with a 9 at 50ft is as leathal as any .45!

[Zombie Steve]

Ok... I'll play. I'm a sucker for abuse. [Tooth]


First, it's the singer, not the song. Next, I'll say any of the common service calibers will work if you put them in the right spot. Go with the caliber you think is coolest; you'll practice more.

So why have I always leaned .45 auto?

Started in the 80's with being a caliber tard, plain and simple... "if it doesn't start with a four and end in five", et cetera. Since then I've seen how effective other cartridges can be. But I still circle back to the .45 auto and lower capacity for a few reasons...

They all do the job, but the .45 auto does it at significantly lower pressures. One invaluable thing I've learned from an old sage reloader is rather than hot rodding a .357 mag, get a .44 mag and load mid range. You can pull a horse trailer with a 6 cylinder toyota, but you're overworking the crap out of that toyota. A V8 is much better suited to the job. .45 auto can do the same job without all the bang. Easier on your gun, no need to go into the world of +P, +P+, et cetera.

Also, the .45 auto is subsonic / not as noisy as many rounds.

It's also not as dependent on bullet construction as a 9mm. .45 fmj / ball ammo has 100 uncontroversial years under its belt, and with modern hollow points, it's just that much better. Not so with the 9mm. I'm a little more picky what I carry in mine than I am the .45's.

Just food for thought.

[jreifsch80]

Ah I forgot about this thread, I'm glad you guys got as good of a laugh as I did about the "judge" haha maybe if you use cowboy action black powder loads you could make a smoke screen and run away.

Anyway for a real answer I wouldn't care, I'd carry either 9mm or .45acp and just have appropriate bullet selection. Heck if I had a 9x17mm and was most comfortable with it I'd chose it also I would be comfortable with a smith body guard .357 yeah may be only 5 rounds but my personal thoughts are that if 5 rounds aren't enough then I've got a lot more problems than just caliber selection haha

[spyder]

What would you prefer to carry. A full size 9MM with 18 rounds or a full size 45ACP with 8 rounds.

Please include the reasons for your choice.[Beer]
You know they make double stacked 45's right? [Coffee] They even have double stacked 1911's.

[JlazyH]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e232/jlazyh/stis-2.jpg

[SRG720]

I ditched all my 9mm's after shooting a .45 for the first time. IDK what it is but there's just something very special about it. Don't get me wrong, the 9mm is a decent round and it works for alot of people.. just not for me.

[Lex_Luthor]

I've shot .45 and 9mm, haven't shot .40 yet though. I actually prefer the way my XD9 handles over my buddy's S&W .45 that I shot. I suppose my pocket has something to say about cost of ammo too, but that's my own choice and personal financial situation. It works for me, and I'm glad I made the choice I did. :)

[TFOGGER]

I've been known to carry either. I have 2 basically identical pistols, 1 in 9mm, the other in .45. I shoot the .45 better most of the time. I think it has to do with the report and the perceived "speed" of the recoil. I'm generally faster on follow up shots with the .45.

[rockymtnrifleman]

IDK,

I really like the 9mm, and 45. I recently got rid of the 40/357 sig.

9mm, you get alot of bullets, and with todays hp ammo out it really performs pretty damn good. cheap to shoot= alot of range time.

45 well its a tank, I really only care for it in the 1911 platform. fun but cost more, and its a pretty big bullet,

40 good round if you can shoot it well, affords a few more rounds than a 45, good middle ground.

Personally I like alot of little bullets/ 9mm. I've read alot of stats on offercer involved shootings that the accuracy of the trained professionaly (officer) under fire is somewhere around 33% so thats roughly 3/10 rounds hit the intended target. I often find myself carrying a Glock 19, hopefully i never have to use it, and hopefully I land ATLEAST 5/15 on target.



YMMV

[Atrain1]

If you need firepower, your handgun is the WRONG tool for the job.

Just remember that Simo Hayha got shot in the face with what has been reported to be an 'explosive round' allegedly from some sort of light anti armor rifle... and lived. What chance has a pistol got of guaranteeing a 1 shot stop?

So, i highly recommend using the ammo your fire arm is chambered in ;) I will gauranty you that if you shoot him with my Ruger Super RedHawk 44 magnum with a 340 grain bullet he will not live, do to the fact that he will no longer have a head. As far as 9mm vs 45 I am with everone with the g20 I have the 200 grain Double tap rounds and it is nasty, 15+1 it will do some damage. 45 is also a nice choice if you get a guy that is all hoped up on something like pcp you will drop him with the 45, the 9mm is going to go through most likely. As far as shot placement most people have not had close combat training so shot placement when your heart is racing is going to be a problem, again with a 45 it is going to take them down as long as you can put one in the guy.

[mcantar18c]

As far as shot placement most people have not had close combat training so shot placement when your heart is racing is going to be a problem, again with a 45 it is going to take them down as long as you can put one in the guy.

[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
That is the biggest pile of BS I've seen on this board. Classic "this is a manly round, it'll take them down as long as you can get one hit on em" mentality.
There are PLENTY of instances where multiple hits with a .45ACP doesn't drop an attacker. Do a google search, you'll come up with plenty of news reports and statistics.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... ALL handgun calibers suck, and they all suck pretty much equally. The difference in effect on target between a single 9mm round and a .45ACP (and a .357SIG, and a .40S&W) is negligible. There is no such thing as "stopping power"... the only true one hit drops are CNS shots, and if you're thinking that you'll pull off a CNS kill with one shot in a gunfight outside of pure luck... well if you're ever in a gunfight, I'll just chalk it up to Darwin at work.
I'll take a few dozen 9mm rounds over 8 .45 rounds anyday... and I can guarantee I can put more rounds on target in less time with my 9mm than you can with your .45.
More rounds on target is the best stopping power there is, and two .356" holes is always bigger than one .452" hole.

[rockymtnrifleman]

[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
That is the biggest pile of BS I've seen on this board. Classic "this is a manly round, it'll take them down as long as you can get one hit on em" mentality.
There are PLENTY of instances where multiple hits with a .45ACP doesn't drop an attacker. Do a google search, you'll come up with plenty of news reports and statistics.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... ALL handgun calibers suck, and they all suck pretty much equally. The difference in effect on target between a single 9mm round and a .45ACP (and a .357SIG, and a .40S&W) is negligible. There is no such thing as "stopping power"... the only true one hit drops are CNS shots, and if you're thinking that you'll pull off a CNS kill with one shot in a gunfight outside of pure luck... well if you're ever in a gunfight, I'll just chalk it up to Darwin at work.
I'll take a few dozen 9mm rounds over 8 .45 rounds anyday... and I can guarantee I can put more rounds on target in less time with my 9mm than you can with your .45.
More rounds on target is the best stopping power there is, and two .356" holes is always bigger than one .452" hole.


WELL SAID!...... more round on target... More holes more blood loss...

One shot drops... CNS... GOOD LUCK! Fire under stress, while being engaged, behind cover, ect.... its a whole different ball game....

[Bailey Guns]

[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]
That is the biggest pile of BS I've seen on this board. Classic "this is a manly round, it'll take them down as long as you can get one hit on em" mentality.
There are PLENTY of instances where multiple hits with a .45ACP doesn't drop an attacker. Do a google search, you'll come up with plenty of news reports and statistics.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.... ALL handgun calibers suck, and they all suck pretty much equally. The difference in effect on target between a single 9mm round and a .45ACP (and a .357SIG, and a .40S&W) is negligible. There is no such thing as "stopping power"... the only true one hit drops are CNS shots, and if you're thinking that you'll pull off a CNS kill with one shot in a gunfight outside of pure luck... well if you're ever in a gunfight, I'll just chalk it up to Darwin at work.
I'll take a few dozen 9mm rounds over 8 .45 rounds anyday... and I can guarantee I can put more rounds on target in less time with my 9mm than you can with your .45.
More rounds on target is the best stopping power there is, and two .356" holes is always bigger than one .452" hole.

This. If you want "stopping power", you don't want a handgun (at least in the "normal" defensive calibers).

As soon as somebody makes an IWB holster for my AR I'm all over that.

Hell...I sometimes carry a little Beretta .22LR or a .25ACP. Is it optimal? No. Unless I really need it. If that's what I happen to have at the time it's the best handgun/caliber combination out there.

I just don't get too wrapped up in worrying about is "Caliber X better than caliber Y?".

[Hoser]

I will gauranty you that if you shoot him with my Ruger Super RedHawk 44 magnum with a 340 grain bullet he will not live, do to the fact that he will no longer have a head.
Funny stuff right there. Hit them in the torso and their head explodes.



with a 45 it is going to take them down as long as you can put one in the guy.
Modern bullet technology has come a long way. As long as you arent shooting FMJ, its a wash.

[Mick-Boy]

There are lots and lots of dead people that say both rounds kill. Carry what you can shoot the best. Just as long as you carry. I'd rather have a .22 in hand than a .50 AE in the safe.

As the great Mr. Heinlein said (in one of my favorite books) - "There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men."

Be a dangerous man.

[Great-Kazoo]

One who practices with a 22
is far superior to one who doesn't
with a .45

YMMV

[mcantar18c]

As the great Mr. Heinlein said (in one of my favorite books) - "There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men."

Be a dangerous man.

That may be one of my new favorite quotes.
Be a dangerous man. I've been called dangerous and took it as a compliment [Tooth] by someone that got a peek at my EDC.
This applies to everything in your life.
You want guys to see you at the range and say "man, that guy's f*ckin dangerous" (and not talking about basic gun safety).
You want to be just as dangerous with an extension cord as you are with a dinner plate, a cup of coffee, a blade, or a gun.
This applies to ALL aspects of life. Business (business is war, after all), romance, raising your offspring, cooking meals. Anything and everything you do you should do well and should strive to be the best at it, be a danger to others who have the same goal.

/tangent

[TFOGGER]

That may be one of my new favorite quotes.
Be a dangerous man. I've been called dangerous and took it as a compliment [Tooth] by someone that got a peek at my EDC.
This applies to everything in your life.
You want guys to see you at the range and say "man, that guy's f*ckin dangerous" (and not talking about basic gun safety).
You want to be just as dangerous with an extension cord as you are with a dinner plate, a cup of coffee, a blade, or a gun.
This applies to ALL aspects of life. Business (business is war, after all), romance, raising your offspring, cooking meals. Anything and everything you do you should do well and should strive to be the best at it, be a danger to others who have the same goal.

/tangent

You sound like a scholar of Sun Tzu [Beer]

[njsco]

I work in an operating room in a Hospital in Aurora and over the last few years have seen an increasing number of people with gunshots come into the OR/ER.

Though it is not possible to tell, from the wounds, what caliber the person was shot with, the ones who don't survive all have the same thing in common, multiple hits to the head or chest/abdomen.

The lesson for me is that if you want to kill someone, shoot them repeatedly with good center of body shots and/or head shots.

I personally shoot handguns for sport and use 9mm and .22 cal. I feel comfortable occasionally carrying a 9mm with defensive loads for protection. If I am ever in a situation where I need to defend my life with a 9mm I won't hesitate to shoot multiple times and I'll know it was justified. I do wonder though what lawyers have to say about firing more than once against a single target in a defense situation.

I think that for consistent defensive carry or law enforcement purposes, .45 cal or .40 cal might be a better choice than 9mm.

[mcantar18c]

You sound like a scholar of Sun Tzu [Beer]
I wonder if I can change my forum handle [Coffee]


I do wonder though what lawyers have to say about firing more than once against a single target in a defense situation.

They were a threat. You stopped the threat. End of story.
To elaborate on that... they were a threat to you life or the life of another, and you acted only to stop the threat. You had no direct intention of killing or maiming, simply stopping the threat. Until he was on the ground and not moving, he was still a threat. You kept firing until you thought the threat was eliminated, no more and no less.
Also, see my sig...

I think that for consistent defensive carry or law enforcement purposes, .45 cal or .40 cal might be a better choice than 9mm.

That makes absolutely no sense.

[njsco]

Thanks mcantar18c for your reply.

When I said, "I think that for consistent defensive carry or law enforcement purposes, .45 cal or .40 cal might be a better choice than 9mm" I meant that my belief is that those rounds are probably more effective at incapacitating someone with fewer rounds fired than using a 9mm. For people who put themselves in situations where using a handgun, outside of the home, is possible i.e consistent defensive carry/law enforcement then actions will be very closely scrutinized. Stopping the target, not killing them is the objective. This is my belief, and like many, might not be correct.

I guess I am also a bit paranoid, this comes form working in the medical field where lawsuits and threats of them are routine.

And as I said before though, if someone threatens me and I feel my life is in jeopardy, I will fight to kill. For home defense I use a 12 gauge shotgun and have 9mm pistols available.

[Atrain1]

I work in an operating room in a Hospital in Aurora and over the last few years have seen an increasing number of people with gunshots come into the OR/ER.

Though it is not possible to tell, from the wounds, what caliber the person was shot with, the ones who don't survive all have the same thing in common, multiple hits to the head or chest/abdomen.

The lesson for me is that if you want to kill someone, shoot them repeatedly with good center of body shots and/or head shots.

I personally shoot handguns for sport and use 9mm and .22 cal. I feel comfortable occasionally carrying a 9mm with defensive loads for protection. If I am ever in a situation where I need to defend my life with a 9mm I won't hesitate to shoot multiple times and I'll know it was justified. I do wonder though what lawyers have to say about firing more than once against a single target in a defense situation.

I think that for consistent defensive carry or law enforcement purposes, .45 cal or .40 cal might be a better choice than 9mm. When I was going through my tactical training I practiced 2 in the chest and one to the head. Now the problem for most people is once you are being shot at, your heart is racing and shot placement is going to be a big problem. So I say that for 2 reasons 1 I dont think any jury is going to put you behind bars for unloading a gun into a guy, that is threatining your life especialy if he has a gun, 2 a bigger caliber like a 45 will help if you are having problems with shot placement when your heart is racing, do to it being such a big slow moving bullet it will put the target down pretty much anywere you hit it. Now I think if you were to unload more than 1 mag into a guy, or shoot some one when they are running away is when you will have a problem.

[Bailey Guns]

When I was going through my tactical training I practiced 2 in the chest and one to the head. Now the problem for most people is once you are being shot at, your heart is racing and shot placement is going to be a big problem. So I say that for 2 reasons 1 I dont think any jury is going to put you behind bars for unloading a gun into a guy, that is threatining your life especialy if he has a gun, 2 a bigger caliber like a 45 will help if you are having problems with shot placement when your heart is racing, do to it being such a big slow moving bullet it will put the target down pretty much anywere you hit it. Now I think if you were to unload more than 1 mag into a guy, or shoot some one when they are running away is when you will have a problem.

Dude...where do you come up with this stuff? I have to say I'm always entertained by your posts.

[ROFL2]

[blacklabel]

So I say that for 2 reasons 1 I dont think any jury is going to put you behind bars for unloading a gun into a guy...

You might want to include a disclaimer that you're not a lawyer when you give terrible advice.

[Atrain1]

Dude...where do you come up with this stuff? I have to say I'm always entertained by your posts.

[ROFL2] Have you ever been shot at?

[Irving]

Why do people even practice two to the chest and one to the head? Are you planning on getting into a gun fight with a person tied to a post?

[Atrain1]

Why do people even practice two to the chest and one to the head? Are you planning on getting into a gun fight with a person tied to a post?I would imagine it is to make sure there dead, but the problem is no one is going to get that shot placement in a gun fight.

[Irving]

Why don't people practice two to the body and one to the head for hunting?

[Atrain1]

You might want to include a disclaimer that you're not a lawyer when you give terrible advice.That is why I said I would not think that is my opinion, based on alot of things I have seen, am I the only one that has seen some one squeeze off 8 rounds into some one from being scared and get off with SD. And I guess I am the only one that has seen cops and alot of other good people dead because they had a 9mm. So I guess no one here has heard of PCP and what it does

[mcantar18c]

Thanks mcantar18c for your reply.

When I said, "I think that for consistent defensive carry or law enforcement purposes, .45 cal or .40 cal might be a better choice than 9mm" I meant that my belief is that those rounds are probably more effective at incapacitating someone with fewer rounds fired than using a 9mm.

Go look up Velocity/Energy numbers between common 9mm and common .40S&W loads... there really isn't that big of a difference, in fact most numbers are within 100 points of each other. Now take a look at this image (http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg). Can you honestly tell me that you see any significant difference? As I said before, ALL handgun calibers suck, and they ALL suck pretty much equally. The most effective "man stoppers" are shot placement and rounds on target.
Also, why the worry about how well you can drop them with fewer rounds? Instead of looking at it as "how many rounds will it take to drop this asshat?" think of it as "lets see how many rounds can I put in this asshat before he hits the ground." I can't put it any more simply than this: SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND.

For people who put themselves in situations where using a handgun, outside of the home, is possible i.e consistent defensive carry/law enforcement then actions will be very closely scrutinized. Stopping the target, not killing them is the objective. This is my belief, and like many, might not be correct.

If you wake up in the morning, you've put yourself in a position where having to kill or be killed (with a gun or otherwise) is possible. If you do have to defend yourself, it doesn't matter where it happens... in your home, on the streets, or in the parking lot of a police station... everything you do will be closely scrutinized. Again, see my sig line on this. While the legal "after the fight" crap should not be ignored, it should not be something that worries you so much that it has effects your course of action in a situation. In a fight, when its kill or be killed, you do WHATEVER it takes to survive. The only unfair fight is the one you don't win. Train well, train often, and train to not only win, but to win as quickly and decisively as possible. Take down your enemy as quickly, violently, and efficiently as you can... whether this means turning him into a cheese grater with your CCW piece or opening up his arteries and airways with a shattered dinner plate, you fight to WIN. If you hesitate on doing what needs to be done because your brain is stuck on "oh shit am I gonna get sued for this?" you won't have to worry about it because you won't live to see it. Worry about the fight when you're fighting it, and worry about the "after the fight" after the fight.

I guess I am also a bit paranoid, this comes form working in the medical field where lawsuits and threats of them are routine.

Understandable

And as I said before though, if someone threatens me and I feel my life is in jeopardy, I will fight to kill. For home defense I use a 12 gauge shotgun and have 9mm pistols available.
Just a little tangent I want to go on here... a 12ga is great for home defense, no question there. But does it fit your specific needs? For me, a 12ga with birdshot works just fine (although I use a handgun)... but my buddy's primary home defense is a Glock, as a long arm doesn't work for him. Why? He has a 3yo daughter, and may need to carry her into another room to keep her safe... and he can't operate 12ga with one hand (slow to aim and no way to work the pump). I had never even considered this until he and I had talked about it. Point is, make sure you're accounting for everything you possibly can when selecting your HD gun... because there's always something you don't think of.



When I was going through my tactical training I practiced 2 in the chest and one to the head. Now the problem for most people is once you are being shot at, your heart is racing and shot placement is going to be a big problem. So I say that for 2 reasons 1 I dont think any jury is going to put you behind bars for unloading a gun into a guy, that is threatining your life especialy if he has a gun, 2 a bigger caliber like a 45 will help if you are having problems with shot placement when your heart is racing, do to it being such a big slow moving bullet it will put the target down pretty much anywere you hit it. Now I think if you were to unload more than 1 mag into a guy, or shoot some one when they are running away is when you will have a problem.

Wow, I'm impressed. You're a very tactical guy with all that tactical training and whatnot, running Rhodesian Drills for fun because you know you're just so good that your shot placement will be completely unaffected in an actual situation.[Shake]
I don't think anything needs to be said on this, it seems others are on the same page already.

[blacklabel]

am I the only one that has seen some one squeeze off 8 rounds into some one from being scared and get off with SD

And I've seen cases where a primary argument of the prosecution was excessive use of force because shots were fired after the perceived threat was "stopped".


And I guess I am the only one that has seen cops and alot of other good people dead because they had a 9mm.

Same can be said of .45.


So I guess no one here has heard of PCP and what it does

It was developed as an anesthetic so that'll give you an idea of it's affects. Seems to me that a hit to the CNS would be the best bet in a situation like that. Again, shot placement is king with bullet size being secondary. That said, if I'm in that situation, I'm not going to be able to consciously think to shoot to hit the CNS. I'll be shooting COM until the threat stops.

I'm a strong believer in the best round being the one that you can get positive hits with and have with you when needed.

[mcantar18c]

Why do people even practice two to the chest and one to the head? Are you planning on getting into a gun fight with a person tied to a post?
In a proactive fight, a RD can be pulled off and can be effective. But we're talking reactive fights here... I can't think of any situation where a civilian can engage in a proactive fight without becoming the criminal.


So I guess no one here has heard of PCP and what it does
PCP = more holes in body. End of discussion.

[Atrain1]

Wow, I'm impressed. You're a very tactical guy with all that tactical training and whatnot, running Rhodesian Drills for fun because you know you're just so good that your shot placement will be completely unaffected in an actual situation.[Shake]
I don't think anything needs to be said on this, it seems others are on the same page already. When I said most people I guess what I ment to say was most people, I would imagine I am among most people, so again I forgot I am in co and you have to talk to people like they are kids. Sorry I didnt say that people like Navy Seals and Army SF people like that will put there bullet were ever they want, Now most people ME included with the little training I have, and as good as a shot that I think I am, and every one else that has seen me, all my friends I shoot with. You and most people you know will not get the shot placement they think they are going to get in a tactical situation. I have been shot at so I know what it feels like.

[Mick-Boy]

When I said most people I guess what I ment to say was most people, I would imagine I am among most people, so again I forgot I am in co and you have to talk to people like they are kids. Sorry I didnt say that people like Navy Seals and Army SF people like that will put there bullet were ever they want, Now most people ME included with the little training I have, and as good as a shot that I think I am, and every one else that has seen me, all my friends I shoot with. You and most people you know will not get the shot placement they think they are going to get in a tactical situation. I have been shot at so I know what it feels like.

[ROFL1]

Dude....

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. Just to be helpful though I'll suggest you look up the MOS designator that the person you're arguing with has at the end of his screenname. (It makes your comment that much funnier.)

MCantar - I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Atrain1]

And I've seen cases where a primary argument of the prosecution was excessive use of force because shots were fired after the perceived threat was "stopped".



Same can be said of .45.



It was developed as an anesthetic so that'll give you an idea of it's affects. Seems to me that a hit to the CNS would be the best bet in a situation like that. Again, shot placement is king with bullet size being secondary. That said, if I'm in that situation, I'm not going to be able to consciously think to shoot to hit the CNS. I'll be shooting COM until the threat stops.

I'm a strong believer in the best round being the one that you can get positive hits with and have with you when needed. That is what my point was I dont see why no one understands, that if you got a guy charging at you or whatever the siuation might be, I dont think you will be very good with your shot placement, and that a 45 will tend to drop a human more than a 9mm will. I seen a clip were a cop should still be alive cause he had a 9mm. I did not mean to upset anyone.

[Irving]

How do you know that a .45 would have done any better?

[Atrain1]

How do you know that a .45 would have done any better? I believe taking a hit to the sternum with a 45 instead of the 9mm would have saved his life, than again reacting faster would have saved his life, I am sure you have seen it.

[Irving]

I haven't seen it.

What makes you so sure? A .45 weighs a little bit more, but it is also traveling a little bit slower.

[mcantar18c]

[ROFL1]
[Beer]


I seen a clip were a cop should still be alive cause he had a 9mm. I did not mean to upset anyone.
I seen a clip where a guy unlocked a car with a tennis ball.


I believe taking a hit to the sternum with a 45 instead of the 9mm would have saved his life, than again reacting faster would have saved his life, I am sure you have seen it.

Better training would have saved his life. Does not matter if he has a .22LR or a .500S&W.

[Bailey Guns]

Have you ever been shot at?

As a matter of fact, I have.

I've also seen the results of a lot of people who've been shot at...and hit, with various handgun rounds. No one ever complained to me they were shot with too small a caliber.

I have but one thing to say to you, train. I doubt you know the background of every person posting on this forum. It would be wise of you to remember that when you post stupid shit.

I have no clue what your background is. However, you come off in your posts as someone who gets all their info from 20 year old Guns & Ammo mags.

Now, you may be God's gift to the shooting world. However, based again on the stupid shit you post, I doubt it.

My opinion/advise would be to lose the "I know everything about everything based on my superior tactical training where I singlehandedly developed the 2 to the chest, 1 to the head drill because I can stay so cool under pressure while executing surgically accurate shot placement that no other mere mortal could possibly hope to achieve" attitude.

A lot of guys that post here have "been there and done that". That seems to be something you haven't caught on to yet.

Alternatively, you can continue to spout your bullshit and come across as a total moron. Like I said before...it's pretty entertaining and it's a free country. Just don't be surprised when someone calls you out on it.

[Atrain1]

As a matter of fact, I have.

I've also seen the results of a lot of people who've been shot at...and hit, with various handgun rounds. No one ever complained to me they were shot with too small a caliber.

I have but one thing to say to you, train. I doubt you know the background of every person posting on this forum. It would be wise of you to remember that when you post stupid shit.

I have no clue what your background is. However, you come off in your posts as someone who gets all their info from 20 year old Guns & Ammo mags.

Now, you may be God's gift to the shooting world. However, based again on the stupid shit you post, I doubt it.

My opinion/advise would be to lose the "I know everything about everything based on my superior tactical training where I singlehandedly developed the 2 to the chest, 1 to the head drill because I can stay so cool under pressure while executing surgically accurate shot placement that no other mere mortal could possibly hope to achieve" attitude.

A lot of guys that post here have "been there and done that". That seems to be something you haven't caught on to yet.

Alternatively, you can continue to spout your bullshit and come across as a total moron. Like I said before...it's pretty entertaining and it's a free country. Just don't be surprised when someone calls you out on it.It seems like you guys are looking for something to argue about, do you actualy reed the whole thing or just parts, I said that is what I was taught, And I also said that most people me included will not be able to get that kind of shot placement. And as far as the bigger caliber I will always think bigger is better, look at the background of the 45, I carry a 380 with 6 rounds so I am not saying that small calibers wont kill, that would be just stupid, so if I came off wrong it is because I could not get my point across on this post hopefuly this is clear enough

[sneakerd]

I think I remember this argument being an article in the 1st gun magazine I ever bought, back in I think May of '74. It had a Walther PPK on the cover. Guns & Ammo I think it was. In any event, in pistols I shoot almost exclusively 9mm & 45, I probably put about 1,000 rounds downrange per month. I prefer the 9mm because it is cheaper to shoot, more rounds downrange = more control of the handgun thus more hits likely whatever the situation. I love the 45, the USP is my bedside gun. The Smith M&P Pro Series in 9 being the "bug-out" pistol. I say defend yourself with the gun you are most able to practice with and so are best at shooting. Whether it's a Barrett, an 870, Smith 500 or a Beretta 22. Put the lead in the breadbasket and you'll probably be ok.

[Atrain1]

All I know and I am sure every one will agree, it would suck to get shot by anything, and I hope I am never in a situation were I am on the recieving end, or have to be the one shooting because taking the life of another human will mess with anyone, even if it is in self defence IMO.

[mcantar18c]

All I know and I am sure every one will agree, it would suck to get shot buy anything, and I hope I am never in a situation were I am on the recieving end, or have to be the one shooting because taking the life of another human will mess with anyone, even if it is in self defence IMO.

At least if its a 9mm you won't have to worry about it too much cause it won't actually do anything serious. Just pray it ain't a .45 though, if you so much as get hit in the arm with a .45 you're screwed.

[sneakerd]

Unless you're hit with 147-gr Hydra-Shoks!!!

[Atrain1]

At least if its a 9mm you won't have to worry about it too much cause it won't actually do anything serious. Just pray it ain't a .45 though, if you so much as get hit in the arm with a .45 you're screwed. My brother got shot 2 times once in the foot and the other through the side of his stomach. Now he was told if it would have been something other than a 9mm, like a 45 that the window would not have deflected the one that was in his head rest and the 6 that were in the door would have probably got through, now onto the 2 that hit him and the one that they left in, yes if it would have been a 45 he would not have had a foot most likley, and the one that went into his stomach would have more of a devistating affect.

[SA Friday]

At least if its a 9mm you won't have to worry about it too much cause it won't actually do anything serious. Just pray it ain't a .45 though, if you so much as get hit in the arm with a .45 you're screwed.

I've been to three autopsies involving shooting victims. They all had two things in common, they were all dead and they were all shot by 9x19 caliber pistols. Two were even shot by ball ammo. Te highest shot count of the three victims was six shots.

I also worked an attempted homicide where the victim was shot by a full mag of 45 ACP, PMC Surefire ammo. All but one round was a thoracic cavity hit. All rounds mushroomed that hit him but one. That one round passed through is right lung. The victim died a year and a half later due to complications from the shooting.

So, I still think it's logical to hedge your bets, but I've seen both calibers do the job. Most damage I've ever seen to a human is a tie; a 12 gauge at point blank, and a 44 mag at point blank. In the terms of war, well, that's another matter.

[Atrain1]

I've been to three autopsies involving shooting victims. They all had two things in common, they were all dead and they were all shot by 9x19 caliber pistols. Two were even shot by ball ammo. Te highest shot count of the three victims was six shots.

I also worked an attempted homicide where the victim was shot by a full mag of 45 ACP, PMC Surefire ammo. All but one round was a thoracic cavity hit. All rounds mushroomed that hit him but one. That one round passed through is right lung. The victim died a year and a half later due to complications from the shooting.

So, I still think it's logical to hedge your bets, but I've seen both calibers do the job. Most damage I've ever seen to a human is a tie; a 12 gauge at point blank, and a 44 mag at point blank. In the terms of war, well, that's another matter. There have also been stories of people trying to commit suicide with a 12 gauge and lived through it, so I guess it just comes down to how lucky you are. I forgot about a guy I knew thought having the biggest gun is what mattered the most, and he had a colt python with a 10 inch barrel, when he was at a bar and tried pulling it the other guy got out his 25 alot faster and the guy with the python was dead from 1 shot to the chest.

[mcantar18c]

My brother got shot 2 times once in the foot and the other through the side of his stomach. Now he was told if it would have been something other than a 9mm, like a 45 that the window would not have deflected the one that was in his head rest and the 6 that were in the door would have probably got through,

1. Told by who? A cop that gets a little bit of training through his dept. and by no means an expert on ballistics? Or a surgeon that knows jack shit about guns other than people use them to keep him in business?
2. Have you ever shot a car before? Seen the effects for yourself? The common average sized handgun rounds (excludes smaller than 9mm, larger than .45, and magnums) do very similar things with similar bullets... in this situation, its the bullet type that makes a difference.
3. Its not the smaller caliber that saved his head. Its the lack of training and skill of the guy behind the gun.

now onto the 2 that hit him and the one that they left in, yes if it would have been a 45 he would not have had a foot most likley, and the one that went into his stomach would have more of a devistating affect.

Again, who the hell told you this? Its the placement of a shot that would effect this, not the caliber (again, excluding magnums and such). If the bullet passes in between tendons and such in his foot, then it passes in between them. Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP round does not have some magical mind of its own that seeks out the most damaging places to hit.
Again, this is more dependent on bullet type too. An expanding/frangible bullet will do more damage/has a better chance of inflicting serious damage than a ball round.



There have also been stories of people trying to commit suicide with a 12 gauge and lived through it, so I guess it just comes down to how lucky you are. I forgot about a guy I knew thought having the biggest gun is what mattered the most, and he had a colt python with a 10 inch barrel, when he was at a bar and tried pulling it the other guy got out his 25 alot faster and the guy with the python was dead from 1 shot to the chest.

Sounds like he rubbed off on you quite a bit.

[Mick-Boy]

Anecdotes are a very stupid way to choose a defensive handgun.

Nothing man-protable can gaurantee a one shot stop.

Carry (for god sakes carry, a badass pistol isn't going to do a damn thing for you if it's sitting in your safe) what ever you shoot the best.

Load you pistol with modern defensive loads.

Train, train and train some more.

Maintain your situational awareness.

Don't do stupid things, hang out in stupid places or spend time around stupid people.

Then if the day ever comes when you need to use the pistol maybe, maybe it'll be enough.

[sneakerd]

Sounds like Mick-boy has been hanging out with Andy Stanford.

[mcantar18c]

Anecdotes are a very stupid way to choose a defensive handgun.

Nothing man-protable can gaurantee a one shot stop.

Carry (for god sakes carry, a badass pistol isn't going to do a damn thing for you if it's sitting in your safe) what ever you shoot the best.

Load you pistol with modern defensive loads.

Train, train and train some more.

Maintain your situational awareness.

Don't do stupid things, hang out in stupid places or spend time around stupid people.

Then if the day ever comes when you need to use the pistol maybe, maybe it'll be enough.

AMEN.
2 things....
1. I see you've become familiar with the 3S rule
2. Half disagree on the man-portable firepower one shot stop thing. Big-bore high power rifles and certain 12ga loads come to mind... I don't see anybody getting up from a [B]center mass hit from a .50BMG or a 12ga magnum load. But as handguns go, absolutely true.

[Atrain1]

Anecdotes are a very stupid way to choose a defensive handgun.

Nothing man-protable can gaurantee a one shot stop.

Carry (for god sakes carry, a badass pistol isn't going to do a damn thing for you if it's sitting in your safe) what ever you shoot the best.

Load you pistol with modern defensive loads.

Train, train and train some more.

Maintain your situational awareness.

Don't do stupid things, hang out in stupid places or spend time around stupid people.

Then if the day ever comes when you need to use the pistol maybe, maybe it'll be enough. put very well

[Mick-Boy]

My dad taught me the three S's when I was a youngster.

I'd agree with you on the .50 BMG. A 12GA.... I don't know. After spending some time talking to LEOs who've had a lot of experience behind a 12GA I'm just going to maintain my "shoot them to the ground" plan. No matter what weapon is in my hands.
[Beer]

[Atrain1]

Sounds like he rubbed off on you quite a bit. I never said that smaller rounds wont do the job, I will still stick with my 45 and my 10mm oh and we cant forget the 44 magnum but that is my own opinion and the 9mm is his. This has been an argument I would amagine every since the 2 rounds have been around. I choose bigger rounds and will believe they will do more damage, and as far as my brother it was the balistics guy that said that the window deflected the smaller round, and the the doctor the said he was lucky it was not a bigger bullet for 2 reasons first was it would have caused more damage, and I will ask him what the second reason was, if my memory is correct I believe if it was bigger they would have had to gone in to get it.

[mcantar18c]

My dad taught me the three S's when I was a youngster.

I'd agree with you on the .50 BMG. A 12GA.... I don't know. After spending some time talking to LEOs who've had a lot of experience behind a 12GA I'm just going to maintain my "shoot them to the ground" plan. No matter what weapon is in my hands.
[Beer]
AMEN again [Beer]
I'll admit, I don't have much experience with the 12ga stuff. I doubt something like birdshot would be reliable, but I've seen what 3" magnum loads do to various animals and it ain't pretty.

Ammo is cheap, life is not... anything worth shooting is worth shooting again.

[Atrain1]

Does anyone know anything about these rounds I like shooting them when I take out my gsg, and they seem pretty powerful for a 22LR, also any one with any GSG info would be great I love my gun but I have a few questions why we are on the smaller caliber thing I figured I would ask.

[Mick-Boy]

You'd probably get a better answer in the .22 rimfire section of the forum. But since we've already drifted well off topic maybe someone will come along and you out.

Mcantar - my 12ga targets have only been hinges or locks so far. Although shooting someone with a breaching round is on my bucket list (also killing someone with a tomahawk but that's for a whole different thread).

[Atrain1]

It is more about the gun, i will check into that, the bushing has a gap in the top and ridin on the bottom of the barrel. it fires fine and is as accurate as can be, just wanted to know if any one else has a gsg they can check.

[mcantar18c]

Here ya go Atrain. Now tell me, if a .30-06 to the bread basket didn't do the job in one hit, what makes you think a .45ACP will? I don't mean to continue pointless arguments but I just came across this video and had to share it.
Its all about how many rounds you get on target and where those rounds hit.

dKwBnQhzMyQ

[Atrain1]

Here ya go Atrain. Now tell me, if a .30-06 to the bread basket didn't do the job in one hit, what makes you think a .45ACP will? I don't mean to continue pointless arguments but I just came across this video and had to share it.
Its all about how many rounds you get on target and where those rounds hit.

dKwBnQhzMyQThat is as far as you can get from what I was talking about, I would bet my bottom dollar when he got shot it took him down, but that is a very fast moving rifle round, sick video by the way thanks. My point was a 45 is a big slow moving bullet that has the knock down power that I am looking for, and IMO will do more damage than a 9mm because I would think that a 45 would have more kinetic energy that is just what makes more sence to me. And I know if you get shot in the arm it will not kill you, my mistake I should have put center mass, and even that might not kill, but I bet it would sure knock them down, giving you the time to either pump more rounds or take off. I shot a cell phone with a 9mm and the bullet got stopped by the thin sheet metal inside the phone, I also shot that same phone with a 45 and another like it and could not find the phone to see what happened.
Why the .45ACP is good:

~Big hole makes for deader bad guys.

Why the .45ACP sucks:

~Expensive
~Not a good package for CCW. Low-cap in a CCW package usually. This means your CCW and Main sidearm might be two different calibers. Very inefficient.

Why the 9mm is good:

~It's more prolific then Barny the purple dinosaur.
~NATO uses it
~Cheap to shoot
~High Velocity compared to .45ACP, speed kills
~Fits great in a ccw, a lot of rounds in a fairly compact size.

Why the 9mm is bad:

~Smaller hole
~Not enough energy


Alternative, .40S&W:

~ Almost the same size as a 9mm
~ use it for CCW or main sidearm round, same round double duty
~ More energy delivered then a 9mm
~ More velocity then a .45ACP
~ Almost as cheap to shoot as 9mm
~ More mass then the 9mm

It's the perfect solution to the .45 vs 9mm debate.

[Bailey Guns]

Atrain...let me give you a little hint. And keep in mind the context...we're talking about commonly carried, defensive handgun calibers.

Incapacitation has nothing to do with:

"Knockdown power"
"Stopping power"
"Energy transfer"
"Hydrostatic shock"Plain and simple, it has to do with blood loss. Most people stop or fall down when they've been shot due to psychological reasons (ie: that's what supposed to happen when a person gets shot...they've been "trained" to react that way) more than physiological reasons.

None of the commonly carried defensive calibers has enough mass or energy to "knock down" an average sized person. They just don't. Know matter what gun magazines you've read or what you've heard.

Let me put it to you this way:

In June 1994, Nicole Brown-Simpson, former wife of star pro-football player O.J. Simpson, was murdered on the secluded front walkway of her condominium when someone cut her throat with a knife. How long do you think she remained conscious and able to perform willful activity? How much kinetic energy do you think was "transferred" from the knife blade to the soft tissues of her throat?

Now...go read the rest of the article HERE (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm). And search around the FirearmsTactical.com (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm) website. It's full of great information about ballistics and wounding even though it's a bit dated.

The only real advantage a larger caliber will have is a larger frontal area that might be more likely to rupture something important and cause more bleeding. But any bullet has to penetrate far enough to get to the vital stuff.

Really, dude...you need to stop with the old cliches and gun-rag mythology.

[TFOGGER]

Fact: More people are killed by .22s than all other calibers combined. Bailey is absolutely right, shock or impact has little or nothing to do with lethal effect. A brief review of Newton's First Law of Motion will confirm this: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, a bullet that will take a full grown man and throw him across the room Hollywood style will also generate recoil that will knock the shooter on his ass. The only way a gunshot will immediately incapacitate someone is through massive blood loss, or by severing the spinal cord, or through conditioned response (shock).

[Atrain1]

Atrain...let me give you a little hint. And keep in mind the context...we're talking about commonly carried, defensive handgun calibers.

Incapacitation has nothing to do with:

"Knockdown power"
"Stopping power"
"Energy transfer"
"Hydrostatic shock"Plain and simple, it has to do with blood loss. Most people stop or fall down when they've been shot due to psychological reasons (ie: that's what supposed to happen when a person gets shot...they've been "trained" to react that way) more than physiological reasons.

None of the commonly carried defensive calibers has enough mass or energy to "knock down" an average sized person. They just don't. Know matter what gun magazines you've read or what you've heard.


Let me put it to you this way:
In June 1994, Nicole Brown-Simpson, former wife of star pro-football player O.J. Simpson, was murdered on the secluded front walkway of her condominium when someone cut her throat with a knife. How long do you think she remained conscious and able to perform willful activity? How much kinetic energy do you think was "transferred" from the knife blade to the soft tissues of her throat?



Now...go read the rest of the article HERE (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm). And search around the FirearmsTactical.com (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm) website. It's full of great information about ballistics and wounding even though it's a bit dated.

The only real advantage a larger caliber will have is a larger frontal area that might be more likely to rupture something important and cause more bleeding. But any bullet has to penetrate far enough to get to the vital stuff.

Really, dude...you need to stop with the old cliches and gun-rag mythology. Trust me I dont read gun magazines, I can only name one, so let me ask you this if you had to make a chioce to get shot with a 9 or a 45 what would it be?

[sneakerd]

Arguing for arguments sake.[Bed]

[jscwerve]

Study on stopping power. A very interesting read.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Bottom line, rule number one in a gunfight........HAVE A GUN.

[Atrain1]

Study on stopping power. A very interesting read.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Bottom line, rule number one in a gunfight........HAVE A GUN. That was very ineresting, it makes me feel better about my 380, I guess you cant argue with it when it is in black and white unless you do your own study.

[mcantar18c]

I posted that link in some thread a while back... glad Atrain got a look at it, its a good read.

[WBAR]

I personally feel comfortable carrying a Kahr CW40. Whatever you choose to defend yourself/family with, make sure that you practice enough to know you can rely on it with confidence and know where it will hit at different distances.

[mcantar18c]

I shot a cell phone with a 9mm and the bullet got stopped by the thin sheet metal inside the phone, I also shot that same phone with a 45 and another like it and could not find the phone to see what happened.

I use Copenhagen lids as targets sometimes. 9mm and other faster moving rounds generally penetrate. .45ACP and .50AE usually put a big dent in it and make it fly off somewhere.

Why the .45ACP is good:

~More holes makes for deader bad guys.
(fixed)
Why the .45ACP sucks:

~Expensive
~Not a good package for CCW. Low-cap in a CCW package usually. This means your CCW and Main sidearm might be two different calibers. Very inefficient.

Why the 9mm is good:

~It's more prolific then Barny the purple dinosaur.
~NATO uses it
~Cheap to shoot
~High Velocity compared to .45ACP, speed kills
~Fits great in a ccw, a lot of rounds in a fairly compact size.

Why the 9mm is bad:

~Smaller hole
You seem to think "smaller" means "too small."
~Not enough energy for large furry animals with sharp teeth.
Plenty of energy for two-legged targets.


Trust me I dont read gun magazines, I can only name one, so let me ask you this if you had to make a chioce to get shot with a 9 or a 45 what would it be?
A .45... more recoil means the shooter is less likely to get another round off before I get rounds on him.

[Atrain1]

A .45... more recoil means the shooter is less likely to get another round off before I get rounds on him. I cant argue that either, that is why I want a 38 super from what I understand it has more kinetic energy than a 45, but the recoil of a 9mm that to me would be the perfect compromise but again that is my opinion. Does anyone have any input on this?

[MONTROSE1911]

The 9 is fine!

Long live the SIG 228!

[jerrymrc]

I cant argue that either, that is why I want a 38 super from what I understand it has more kinetic energy than a 45, but the recoil of a 9mm that to me would be the perfect compromise but again that is my opinion. Does anyone have any input on this?

I like the 38 super. In a 1911 type gun you get a couple more shots and the follow up is faster than the 45. I have a couple of 10 rounders for a Govt/Commander size one. Just my two thoughts on that.

I also believe that it is a very personal choice what one carries. I do know that if it a 9mm it is not getting ball ammo. A very good friend of mine had an up close and personal encounter in the sand box with his M9 and a bomb wearing Hadji.

[Atrain1]

I like the 38 super. In a 1911 type gun you get a couple more shots and the follow up is faster than the 45. I have a couple of 10 rounders for a Govt/Commander size one. Just my two thoughts on that.

I also believe that it is a very personal choice what one carries. I do know that if it a 9mm it is not getting ball ammo. A very good friend of mine had an up close and personal encounter in the sand box with his M9 and a bomb wearing Hadji. What do you mean about the 9mm.

[SA Friday]

A .45... more recoil means the shooter is less likely to get another round off before I get rounds on him.

[ROFL1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48&feature=youtube_gdata_player

All the shooting in this was done with factory 45 ACP. He even talks about how a proper grip causes the gun to return to sight picture faster and shows it at about 2:30 of the vid.

[DFBrews]

What do you mean about the 9mm.

I am going to guess correct me if i am wrong Jerry
That because the military is not supposed to use expanding bullets his friend had to dump a shit ton of rounds into the guy to stop the threat. so if he carries a 9mm it will only run hollow points.

[mcantar18c]

[ROFL1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48&feature=youtube_gdata_player

All the shooting in this was done with factory 45 ACP. He even talks about how a proper grip causes the gun to return to sight picture faster and shows it at about 2:30 of the vid.

Yes, proper grip, form, etc. is a larger factor than the size of the cartridge being shot.
But all things being equal (as in, a guy will have the same form shooting a 9mm as he will with a .45), smaller cartridge = faster followup... whether he's in a Weaver stance or shooting gangsta style.
And generally, the people you encounter in a situation will not be IPSC shooters.

[SA Friday]

So your theory is a 9mm can have a followup shot one or two tenths of a second faster, with dozens of other factors being the same, than a 45, then it's better and will give you and edge. And you don't see the flaws in this?

The recoil levels of these two calibers are simply not so extreme that the recoil itself is the predominant factor in follow up shot speed. I don't care if you're a 4'10" Filipino girl that's 85 lbs wet or a pro bodybuilder. The predominant factors in follow up shots and how fast and accurate they are will always be how well ones shooting form is, the mechanics of the firearm, and how much they practice.

The factors involved will never be the same. The benefit you are stating is there is simply irrelevant and in many cases incorrect. I guarantee you my STIs in 40 cal cycle faster than the average factory 9mm. For that matter, the ergonomics of a Sig P226 vs a 1911 will make most shooters have faster follow up shots with the 1911.

Just pick one, and practice. It's the practice, not the picking one that's important.

[DFBrews]

So your theory is a 9mm can have a followup shot one or two tenths of a second faster, with dozens of other factors being the same, than a 45, then it's better and will give you and edge. And you don't see the flaws in this?

The recoil levels of these two calibers are simply not so extreme that the recoil itself is the predominant factor in follow up shot speed. I don't care if you're a 4'10" Filipino girl that's 85 lbs wet or a pro bodybuilder. The predominant factors in follow up shots and how fast and accurate they are will always be how well ones shooting form is, the mechanics of the firearm, and how much they practice.

The factors involved will never be the same. The benefit you are stating is there is simply irrelevant and in many cases incorrect. I guarantee you my STIs in 40 cal cycle faster than the average factory 9mm. For that matter, the ergonomics of a Sig P226 vs a 1911 will make most shooters have faster follow up shots with the 1911.

Just pick one, and practice. It's the practice, not the picking one that's important.


And to not run that god forsaken "NY trigger" if you have a glock.

[jerrymrc]

I am going to guess correct me if i am wrong Jerry
That because the military is not supposed to use expanding bullets his friend had to dump a shit ton of rounds into the guy to stop the threat. so if he carries a 9mm it will only run hollow points.

You are very correct. The back door of the Bradly opened and a man started running to them. It was supposedly a safe area so nobody was coming out to fight.

At the 20 yard mark he drew and started firing. 15 rounds later the man dropped at his feet. Later they found that 14 had hit him and one of them had taken out the bomb. He has a BS with/V for it. It was his second tour.

[Atrain1]

You are very correct. The back door of the Bradly opened and a man started running to them. It was supposedly a safe area so nobody was coming out to fight.

At the 20 yard mark he drew and started firing. 15 rounds later the man dropped at his feet. Later they found that 14 had hit him and one of them had taken out the bomb. He has a BS with/V for it. It was his second tour. I just found it is there is no point to argue, and just agree that a 32 acp will have the same amount of power as a 45 acp hey its in black and white on the internet right LOL anyway you wont get anywere on here with this argument. I found one advantage for the 9mm over the 45 for sure it is cheaper to shoot.

[DFBrews]

I just found it is there is no point to argue, and just agree that a 32 acp will have the same amount of power as a 45 acp hey its in black and white on the internet right LOL anyway you wont get anywere on here with this argument. I found one advantage for the 9mm over the 45 for sure it is cheaper to shoot.

That was not even a caliber specific quote from him the Soldier just happened to have a 9mm I would imagine the thoughts are the same if he would have had a .45 ... Ball ammo sucks for self defense plain and simple

[Atrain1]

I personally feel more comfortable with a 45 230 gr FMJ round then with a 9mm 115 gr FMJ. And as far as follow up shots there is more to it then just the size of the round, put a 45 ACP with a lower bore axis up against a 9x19 high bore axis and see who will get a faster follow up shot, but with the lower bore axis also comes more felt recoil.

[Graves]

And as far as follow up shots there is more to it then just the size of the round, put a 45 ACP with a lower bore axis up against a 9x19 high bore axis and see who will get a faster follow up shot, but with the lower bore axis also comes more felt recoil.

I'll put my money on the shooter who has more practice with his piece any day of the week. BTW, the higher the bbl is above your hand, the more it'll kick but since bore axis usually varies by a few mm's from handgun to handgun it has virtually no effect on how well it performs overall. To think everybody can shoot an M&P 45 will shoot better than an XD9 is absurd.

[Atrain1]

I'll put my money on the shooter who has more practice with his piece any day of the week. BTW, the higher the bbl is above your hand, the more it'll kick but since bore axis usually varies by a few mm's from handgun to handgun it has virtually no effect on how well it performs overall. To think everybody can shoot an M&P 45 will shoot better than an XD9 is absurd. That was my with the my point you would get more muzzle flip with the 9mm with a higher bore axis, you also have a very good point about having prctice with your firearm. When I take out my mil spec 1911 and say my S&W 1911 I can tell a difference between the 2 as far as muzzle rise when I fire them.

[Atrain1]

Yeah, I really can't see this going over more than about 3/4 of a page. That has got to be the longest 3/4 of a page I have ever seen.

[jerrymrc]

I just found it is there is no point to argue, and just agree that a 32 acp will have the same amount of power as a 45 acp hey its in black and white on the internet right LOL anyway you wont get anywere on here with this argument. I found one advantage for the 9mm over the 45 for sure it is cheaper to shoot.

There is no augment at all. I am NOT trying to get anywhere with it. The only point I made at all was that in the same gun (1911 Govt) that the 38 super was quicker than my 45 on follow up shots.

I actually tried this twice since I helped design and set up the course and it was about 2 seconds each time. As I said in my first post it is a personal decision and as a mod will not comment one way or another.

So tell me again where the argument is?

[sneakerd]

Is this thread still going?[Pop][Pepsi]

[Atrain1]

There is no augment at all. I am NOT trying to get anywhere with it. The only point I made at all was that in the same gun (1911 Govt) that the 38 super was quicker than my 45 on follow up shots.

I actually tried this twice since I helped design and set up the course and it was about 2 seconds each time. As I said in my first post it is a personal decision and as a mod will not comment one way or another.

So tell me again where the argument is? I was just giving you a heads up I thought you were going to argue the 9mm vs 45, as far as the 38 super I have wanted one for a long time, I am trying to find a barrel for my tokarev

[ShooterJM]

Some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Whatever you use, shoot 3 times.

[SA Friday]

Some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Whatever you use, shoot 3 times.
This is awesome! [ROFL1]. It pretty much supports everything the experts have said over the years:
Handguns are simply a means to fight your way to a rifle.
Smaller than 9mm is a last act of defiance, but a damn good one.
Shoot them till they quit or die.
Shoot what you can shoot accurately and stop worrying about all the rest of the garbage.

That's good stuff. There are mathematical ways to show the 9mm and mouse gun data had been effected by outside influences. I'm very happy to see he addressed this. I saw it when initially reviewing the data. I would have liked to see a secondary chart with the 9mm numbers reflecting only non-ball ammo. I suspect it would have reflected a more true graph.

[mcantar18c]

Some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Whatever you use, shoot till slide lock or till they hit the ground, reload, and repeat as necessary.
Fixed.


This is awesome!
And a 2x repost! Once in this thread, I believe.



Damnit, I was doing so well ignoring this stupid thread [Bang]

[ShooterJM]

Fixed.


And a 2x repost! Once in this thread, I believe.



Damnit, I was doing so well ignoring this stupid thread [Bang]


[ROFL1]Well that'll teach me to read only the first 10 pages of a thread. [Beer]

[stevelkinevil]

Some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866



Whatever you use, shoot 3 times.

Great read, thanks for the link.

[Atrain1]

I just carry my 25 acp because it has the same stopping power as the 45 acp and it is not as heavy, wow if only I would have known all these years that there is absolutely no difference in knock down power between different calibers I would have the same caliber in all my guns,

[Mick-Boy]

I just carry my 25 acp because it has the same stopping power as the 45 acp and it is not as heavy, wow if only I would have known all these years that there is absolutely no difference in knock down power between different calibers I would have the same caliber in all my guns,

It's not that there is no difference. It's that "knockdown power" or "stopping power" is a fantasy. Physics says unless your pistol is knocking you on your ass every time you fire it, it won't knock the person at the other end on their ass either (See Newton's third law).

The only two ways you reliably end a gun fight are scoring a CNS hit (shutting the bad guy's brain housing group down) or causing enough blood loss that they expire.

CNS hits are a beautiful thing when you make them. It's like someone clipped the strings on a puppet. They are also hard as hell because the head moves around a lot.

So we're left with trying to exchange enough blood for air in the bad guy's body to cause them to expire. The most efficient way to do this is to poke a lot of holes in the bad guy near the pump and the major pipes that exchange and carry their blood (read as; Center chest).

You don't need a hand cannon to do this. You need rapid, accurate shots into the targets ten ring.

You can do that with a 454 Casull? Rock on brother. You love the 1911 in .45? Well do it to it. You shoot a Glock 19 best? Awesome. You really like the Bersa .380? Make sure that bitch runs and then run the hell out of it.

At the risk of repeating myself: Carry what you can shoot well, just so long as you carry.

Arguing 9mm vs. 45 (vs. 40 vs. 10mm vs. .357 sig etc..) is a waste of bandwidth.

[Mick-Boy]

Whatever you use, shoot 3 times.

Shoot them until they're no longer a threat. Bad guys get a vote in gunfights too. Training to shoot any one drill (draw, hammered pair, reholster. Draw, failure drill, reholster. Etc.) is training for failure.

Just because you shoot doesn't mean you hit.

Just because you hit doesn't mean it worked.

Just because it worked doesn't mean it worked right now.

[Bailey Guns]

Whatever you use, shoot 3 times.

What if you miss 3 times? What if you nail the guy in the head and it's an instant "lights out" for him on the first shot? Are you still gonna put two into the guy?

Wouldn't you be better off shooting until there is no longer a threat? Defeating a bad guy could be as simple as drawing your gun or it could be as complicated as having to reload a couple of times.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Mick-Boy. Why set yourself up for failure by training for failure. Saying "shoot 3 times no matter what" is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Course, nobody really asked me...

That's why so many fads in law enforcement training such as:

Draw, fire two rounds, holster
Draw, fire two rounds to the chest, fire one round to the head, holstercome and go. Training methods evolve and shooters should, too. Train to eliminate the threat(s). Don't just train to do something that may, and probably will, fail you.

[Atrain1]

What if you miss 3 times? What if you nail the guy in the head and it's an instant "lights out" for him on the first shot? Are you still gonna put two into the guy?

Wouldn't you be better off shooting until there is no longer a threat? Defeating a bad guy could be as simple as drawing your gun or it could be as complicated as having to reload a couple of times.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Mick-Boy. Why set yourself up for failure by training for failure. Saying "shoot 3 times no matter what" is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Course, nobody really asked me...

That's why so many fads in law enforcement training such as:
Draw, fire two rounds, holster
Draw, fire two rounds to the chest, fire one round to the head, holstercome and go. Training methods evolve and shooters should, too. Train to eliminate the threat(s). Don't just train to do something that may, and probably will, fail you. There is alot more to Police training than that, and one of the reasons they draw fire twice and holster there weapon is for muscle memory, that is just one reason there is alot of reasons they are trained that way. I was trained that way firing one shot and holstering my weapon, another reason that they do that is practicing drawing his or her weapon that is usually done by drawing and holstering the weapon without firing a shot (very boring) then you move on to shooting from there.

[Irving]

Bailey & Mick-Boy, clearly ShooterJM was being funny.

Atrain, LOL. Please tell Bailey more about being a cop.

[Graves]

Heh, beat me to it. Not like Bailey was LE or anything.

[Atrain1]

Bailey & Mick-Boy, clearly ShooterJM was being funny.

Atrain, LOL. Please tell Bailey more about being a cop. I was not trying to tell anyone how to be a cop personally I think the training is crap I was just explaining why they do that from what I can remember I was almost a cop once 7 or 8 years ago in California and I went through the training and then decided to go with skip tracing instead. to me it was a safer choice. And most shootings I have seen the shooter usually pulls the trigger until nothing comes out of the barrel and not even realize it, I have seen cops do It, I know a cop that unloaded his 92FS into a guy after he ran him over on his motorcycle fear and adrenaline can produce some amazing and sometimes ugly results.

[Bailey Guns]

There is alot more to Police training than that, and one of the reasons they draw fire twice and holster there weapon is for muscle memory, that is just one reason there is alot of reasons they are trained that way. I was trained that way firing one shot and holstering my weapon, another reason that they do that is practicing drawing his or her weapon that is usually done by drawing and holstering the weapon without firing a shot (very boring) then you move on to shooting from there.

Yeah...sure. If you're training in the 80s, maybe.

[Atrain1]

Were did my post go that took me a while to write

[Hoser]

Keep things civil guys...

[Atrain1]

Keep things civil guys... Is it getting out of hand? and did my post get deleted some how?

[sneakerd]

[Pop][Pepsi][Luck]

[Atrain1]

[Pop][Pepsi][Luck] I guess I missed something

[spyder]

Does nynco have a second account?

[Atrain1]

I hope I did not offend any police officers as I have great respect for what you do with my comment about not being able to shoot, I think it is crap that officers do not get the range time they should cause cost of bullets, and I by no means ment what I said as a threat when I said I am not one of those guys to get into a shoot out with, I was just saying there are guys out there that can shoot and I think LEO should have more range time. I seen a video that really disturbed me about a officer getting killed that could have been prevented by more training more range time and maybe if the officer had a larger caliber gun when he shot the scumbag center mass he would still be alive, I would not recommend watching the video as it is very disturbing.

[Atrain1]

Compare the 2 factory load rounds and see what you get, lets get back on topic here.

[DFBrews]

Compare the 2 factory load rounds and see what you get, lets get back on topic here.

you get 2 poor choices for self defense

[sneakerd]

This topic has been argued and debated for the entire time of my adult life in every gun rag I have ever read. Aren't 17-some pages enough to convince you that the "answer" is NOT (and will not ever be found) here? It's up to the individual to decide what he will and will not trust his life to. When he will or will not carry, how they will or will not train.

By the way, I learned a long time ago that when a cop opens his mouth and begins to talk- I shut mine and begin to listen. They carry guns on the job 7 days a week based on the requirements of their employer. I'm not argung with anyone who is armed with multiple weapons every day- and in general has authority over me. "You don't pull on Superman's cape and you don't spit into the wind."

[Graves]

I still think 10mm>*

[LOL]

[sneakerd]

[Poke][Train]

[Atrain1]

This topic has been argued and debated for the entire time of my adult life in every gun rag I have ever read. Aren't 17-some pages enough to convince you that the "answer" is NOT (and will not ever be found) here? It's up to the individual to decide what he will and will not trust his life to. When he will or will not carry, how they will or will not train.

By the way, I learned a long time ago that when a cop opens his mouth and begins to talk- I shut mine and begin to listen. They carry guns on the job 7 days a week based on the requirements of their employer. I'm not argung with anyone who is armed with multiple weapons every day- and in general has authority over me. "You don't pull on Superman's cape and you don't spit into the wind." What are you talking about with the cop thing

[sneakerd]

Jesus Christ Atrain. Sometimes you just have to let it go.

[Atrain1]

Jesus Christ Atrain. Sometines you just have to let it go. I just dont understand I think people take things I say the wrong way and way to seriously I am not on here to piss anyone off except maybe a few Kimber guys, I have always had a strong respect for the Police and just wanted to know what you were talking about.

[Graves]

Still waitin' on that "proof" you have on Kimber assembling S&W's and branding them with the Kimber name...

BTW, I have a couple kimbers but there are several other builders I prefer, so I'm not exactly a 'kimber guy'. Just want to know where you get your facts from...

[Atrain1]

Still waitin' on that "proof" you have on Kimber assembling S&W's and branding them with the Kimber name...

BTW, I have a couple kimbers but there are several other builders I prefer, so I'm not exactly a 'kimber guy'. Just want to know where you get your facts from... Look it up maybe I know someone who works for S&W maybe I worked for S&W at one time

[Graves]

Look it up maybe I know someone who works for S&W maybe I worked for S&W at one time

Maybe you did maybe you didn't...cut the shit man, proof or shut your dorrito chute.

[sneakerd]

Ahh Atrain. Once trained to be a cop, decided to be a skiptracer, implies "maybe" he once worked for S&W, now works in the oil fields- he is one well-rounded bad-ass sharpshooter.[Awesom] If only I could be that good!

[Atrain1]

Maybe you did maybe you didn't...cut the shit man, proof or shut your dorrito chute. Prove that they did not,I put up a quote from S&W that said it is not well known and that they make receivers and slides for other companies and guess what Kimber is one of the big companies that they made parts for. put in the time and find out for yourself, you are just like every Kimber guy I have come across you guys are like Raider fans get all bent out of shape when some one talks about your over price over rated 1911. Were do you think MIM parts came from, if you do a little research you will find out that kimber got rid of there tooling at one point went bankrupt, that is probably why they had to have some stuff made by another company it would not be the first time it has happened, lets say Jerico did make the parts from S&W raw material they still were not making there own parts. Kimber started out making 22 Rifles and went bankrupt cause they could not cover the cost of the 30-06 Rifle they built.

[sneakerd]

You can't disprove a negative Train. You're the one making the statements- provide something to back up your claim. It shouldn't be that hard if you're all that you claim to be.

[Atrain1]

Look at cooper fire arms They left the sinking ship and they are doing great. they make there own parts, I forgot to add My S&W with the external extractor works great and will fire any round you put through it unlike some new kimbers that are being built by kimber. I think they should have stuck to 22 Rifles maybe they would have never went out of business in the first place

[Graves]

I did put in the time only to find no proof of any of your claims. It's no secret that S&W has a kick ass forgery, this is why many other companies like Wilson, CMC, Kimber, etc. source raw materials from them. If you're gonna claim that these companies are merely assembling S&W's and stamping their names on them, I'd like to see proof. Compare me to a whiny raiders fan or call me a Kimber fanboi all you like, but from where I'm sittin', you're full of shit.

ETA - Did you ever work for S&W?

[Atrain1]

I did put in the time only to find no proof of any of your claims. It's no secret that S&W has a kick ass forgery, this is why many other companies like Wilson, CMC, Kimber, etc. source raw materials from them. If you're gonna claim that these companies are merely assembling S&W's and stamping their names on them, I'd like to see proof. Compare me to a whiny raiders fan or call me a Kimber fanboi all you like, but from where I'm sittin', you're full of shit.

ETA - Did you ever work for S&W? That is because no one wants to believe S&W makes parts for kimber Harley davidson guys would probably cry about it to, which is what I dont understand S&W is a great company they made the Schofield Revolver for crying out loud

[spyder]

I have looked into this topic before actually, and I can't remember what companies site I found it on (will try to find it later). This is how it goes. Smith & Wesson provides a company by the name of Jerico (I think that's the name) with the basic metal, no actual slides or frames (Kimber is the owner of Jerico). Jerico or whoever then takes the raw metal blanks (basic raw chunks of metal that barely have any resemblance to gun parts) and turns them into the slide and the frame based on what and how Kimber wants them. Then Kimber does whatever in the hell else they want to after they get the basics slide and frames delivered to them. So, ya S&W provides Kimber with their metal, that is as far as it goes. A company owned by Kimber makes the metal into the slide and frame. So, no, S&W does not make Kimber's slides and frames, they merely provide the metal for Kimber to do so.

S&W makes a lot of the basic metal components for a lot of different companies many of which are not even in the firearm business.

[Bailey Guns]

...but from where I'm sittin', you're full of shit.


Oh...you must be sittin' in the same section as I am.

[Atrain1]

Oh...you must be sittin' in the same section as I am. Again almost funny, you know what I find interesting why are there so many kimbers for sale, every time I get online I see 1 to 3 for sale saying I decided to go a different way. I think that is code for I spent way to much on a 1911 and want to find some one as dumb as I am to buy my over priced 1911 that is no different than a good RIA. It should be obvious that I know just a little bit about the company and how it came to be, I do hours of research before I purchase a firearm that is why I would take a pt1911 over a kimber and unlike most people who run there mouth about a firearm that is expensive it is because they cant afford it, believe me that is not the case I could buy a WC but I dont see the purpose of purchasing a gun for 2200 that does nothing different than a gun for 1000 Like I said before all my 1911 pistols are my choice. I have made the mistake of paying to much for a gun I purchased a Ruger P345 for almost 600 bucks that I did not do research on and it was before I really got into guns I found the same gun at a different shop for a little over 400, so I sold it and got my money back.

[sneakerd]

Atrain- since you know sooooo much about 1911s, why bother to ask anyone's opinion about what caliber to choose? It seems to me that you are all about the argument and all about showing everyone else how much you know. You're a braggart. I'm pretty sure that in a nutshell is why we (some of us) question you and front you as we do.

[SA Friday]

Again almost funny, you know what I find interesting why are there so many kimbers for sale, every time I get online I see 1 to 3 for sale saying I decided to go a different way. I think that is code for I spent way to much on a 1911 and want to find some one as dumb as I am to buy my over priced 1911 that is no different than a good RIA. It should be obvious that I know just a little bit about the company and how it came to be, I do hours of research before I purchase a firearm that is why I would take a pt1911 over a kimber and unlike most people who run there mouth about a firearm that is expensive it is because they cant afford it, believe me that is not the case I could buy a WC but I dont see the purpose of purchasing a gun for 2200 that does nothing different than a gun for 1000 Like I said before all my 1911 pistols are my choice. I have made the mistake of paying to much for a gun I purchased a Ruger P345 for almost 600 bucks that I did not do research on and it was before I really got into guns I found the same gun at a different shop for a little over 400, so I sold it and got my money back.
Wow, and here I thought most people were selling off Kimbers due to poor construction and horrible warranty service...

Please, dude, just stop... Read more, type less.

[sneakerd]

A little more punctuation too please.

[Atrain1]

Wow, and here I thought most people were selling off Kimbers due to poor construction and horrible warranty service...

Please, dude, just stop... Read more, type less. Hey you said it I have never once said they were of poor quality, But they do use plastic MSH and alot of MIM parts, Like I said they usually say they decided to go a different way, one is on armslist right now that states it is unfired and he decided to go a different way. Yes I dont like them mainly do to being over rated and way over priced, and the fact that they are no better than my Desert Eagle, the action on my DE is way better than any kimber I have come across

[Bailey Guns]

Again almost funny, you know what I find interesting why are there so many kimbers for sale, every time I get online I see 1 to 3 for sale saying I decided to go a different way. I think that is code for I spent way to much on a 1911 and want to find some one as dumb as I am to buy my over priced 1911 that is no different than a good RIA. It should be obvious that I know just a little bit about the company and how it came to be, I do hours of research before I purchase a firearm that is why I would take a pt1911 over a kimber and unlike most people who run there mouth about a firearm that is expensive it is because they cant afford it, believe me that is not the case I could buy a WC but I dont see the purpose of purchasing a gun for 2200 that does nothing different than a gun for 1000 Like I said before all my 1911 pistols are my choice. I have made the mistake of paying to much for a gun I purchased a Ruger P345 for almost 600 bucks that I did not do research on and it was before I really got into guns I found the same gun at a different shop for a little over 400, so I sold it and got my money back.

No...not buyin' it. I think Graves nailed it. You're just full of shit.

[BPTactical]

Hey now, I happen to like Kimber 1911's.











I have made a nice amount of money unf*#king them.
I especially like the NIB ones that won't even digest one mag of 230 Gr hardball.
I barely get my hands dirty fixing NIB firearms.








You may resume now-
GAME ON!

Forget the popcorn-I'm hungry!
[PizzaHut]

[stevelkinevil]

Hey now, I happen to like Kimber 1911's.











I have made a nice amount of money unf*#king them.
I especially like the NIB ones that won't even digest one mag of 230 Gr hardball.
I barely get my hands dirty fixing NIB firearms.








You may resume now-
GAME ON!

Forget the popcorn-I'm hungry!
[PizzaHut]

I hear ya BP, I ordered one way back when they first came out, I just had to be the first to get one. Beautiful fit and finish, good price (back then, now not so much) but It just wouldn't run, ended up selling it 3 months later and buying another SA.

[Atrain1]

Hey now, I happen to like Kimber 1911's.











I have made a nice amount of money unf*#king them.
I especially like the NIB ones that won't even digest one mag of 230 Gr hardball.
I barely get my hands dirty fixing NIB firearms.








You may resume now-
GAME ON!

Forget the popcorn-I'm hungry!
[PizzaHut] I bet a Gunsmith working on Kimbers is alot like being a Harley mechanic, it pays good there always broken so you stay in business, and everyone thinks there the best so they keep buying them. Now dont get me wrong I do like HD, but my Suzuki intruder is faster runs better and does not leak oil and is half the size of my Harley.

[jplove71]

Atrain... Please, just stop.

[Atrain1]

Okay I believe I have proved my point.

[sneakerd]

[Ignore][Hang][Train]

[Bailey Guns]

No...not buyin' it. I think Graves nailed it. You're just full of shit.

I know I proved my point.

[sneakerd]

I hope- I proved my point. Graves, did you prove your point?

[Graves]

Yup. http://www.greaserlee.com/smilies/umn.gif

[BPTactical]

I bet a Gunsmith working on Kimbers is alot like being a Harley mechanic, it pays good there always broken so you stay in business, and everyone thinks there the best so they keep buying them. Now dont get me wrong I do like HD, but my Suzuki intruder is faster runs better and does not leak oil and is half the size of my Harley.


Wow- When you play the song you hit all the sour notes.

Jr, a Harley has one thing your Ricer will never have.........













Soul

Besides, a righteous sled looks good just sittin still........
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u69/hockeysew/IMG_0828.jpg

[Graves]

I'm not so much into the chrome...

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/253310/images/01estoque.jpg

/derailingderail

[sneakerd]

Boom chakalaka- we've cured the beast and morphed it into a Harley thread!!![Weight]

[DFBrews]

Boom chakalaka- we've cured the beast and morphed it into a Harley thread!!![Weight]

1200 vs. 883? which is better for cruising?[Swim]

[Scanker19]

Loud noises

[Atrain1]

Wow- When you play the song you hit all the sour notes.

Jr, a Harley has one thing your Ricer will never have.........













Soul

Besides, a righteous sled looks good just sittin still........
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u69/hockeysew/IMG_0828.jpg I did not want to offend you we both own HD and I am sure we both have alot of work into our bikes, I was not trying to put down HD it was ment more towards kimber using the Harley reputation vs metric bikes as a Metaphor. You and I both know it is a completely different feeling riding an old HD VS riding my Intruder, on the same note I also have alot of work into my metric bike also so I have a good respect for it to. I dont want to turn this into a Harley vs Metric bike debate, I get good info from you and would like to keep doing so in the future, By the way that is a beautiful machine what kind of motor are you running?

[DFBrews]

Loud noises

Is this a whisper thread now?

[sneakerd]

Not enough light in the garage or I would post a pic of my horse- mint condition '86 VFR700F Honda Interceptor. Red/white/blue. I'll post a pic tomorrow if we're still going in this direction!

[jplove71]

Loud noises
If it's too loud, you're too old!

[BPTactical]

I did not want to offend you we both own HD and I am sure we both have alot of work into our bikes, I was not trying to put down HD it was ment more towards kimber using the Harley reputation vs metric bikes as a Metaphor. You and I both know it is a completely different feeling riding an old HD VS riding my Intruder, on the same note I also have alot of work into my metric bike also so I have a good respect for it to. I dont want to turn this into a Harley vs Metric bike debate, I get good info from you and would like to keep doing so in the future, By the way that is a beautiful machine what kind of motor are you running?

Ridin a ricer is like screwing your sister.......................it might feel ok but do you really want your friends to see you doing it?

Its not an electric bike so there is no motor.
But I bet you can't figger out what the engine is[Muaha]


[Beer]

[sneakerd]

At least you won't see me on the side of the road trying to get that thumper goin'!

potatoe-potatoe-potatoe-potatoe

[DFBrews]

[harley]

[Graves]

Atrain - a real God amongst men... http://www.greaserlee.com/smilies/bowpuke.gifhttp://www.greaserlee.com/smilies/la-z-wavey.gif

[Atrain1]

I am going to find a new forum were people actually know what they are talking about Really 9mm vs 45 who has not talked about that one, has anyone ever thought that maybe I put outlandish stuff out there to see what people know, this git turned into a Harley forum and when I ask a serious question I get a bunch of duchebag answers, that is why I have never been on any forum they all do the same thing, some one will ask a question about a engine and some jack ass will give some answer like your moms tits you guys are all the same

[Bailey Guns]

Atrain, if you're gonna cry this is gonna get real awkward.

[Atrain1]

Atrain - a real God amongst men... http://www.greaserlee.com/smilies/bowpuke.gifhttp://www.greaserlee.com/smilies/la-z-wavey.gif That is what I am talking about you sir are a DUCHE

[Graves]

I am going to find a new forum were people actually know what they are talking about Really 9mm vs 45 who has not talked about that one, has anyone ever thought that maybe I put outlandish stuff out there to see what people know, this git turned into a Harley forum and when I ask a serious question I get a bunch of duchebag answers, that is why I have never been on any forum they all do the same thing, some one will ask a question about a engine and some jack ass will give some answer like your moms tits you guys are all the same

Awww, you takin' your toys home?

http://inspiration.devinambron.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/open-door.jpeg

There it is buddy. [LOL]

[BPTactical]

Okay I cant do this anymore I like getting info from you but when it comes to building bikes I have probably forgot more than you will ever learn, and my metric cruiser has something your bike doesnt OIL, I will run you for pinks any day, dont even get me started on the newer metric cruisers that are the same size as your Harley, Explain to me one thing why did Porsche have to design the V-ROD engine and all the harley guys did not like it cause it worked, why does revtech build a better ENGINE, why will the Yamaha Warrior spank any Harley out there, IF IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY AMERICAN V-TWINS SUCK WHEN IT COMES TO OTHER COUNTRIES GETTING THE DESIGN AND DOING A BETTER JOB. I built my custom cruiser from the ground up and I just got done looking at her and it is a beautiful fast smooth running machine. I got what I wanted I got my point across that Kimbers suck and since you are ever ones gun God on here it is great that you backed me up on the 45 acp and the kimber stuff, I dont normaly get like this but when it comes to something that I have built and when I try to say sorry and it gets thrown right back into my face I am going to tell it how it is. I know why harley's have so much chrome I used to think it was for looks but its so you guys can find your parts when they fall off at night. I am sorry to see you are just like all these other clowns on here most of the stuff I just put up just to do, but every one gets all butt hert when I put up a post. The only thing American I drive as far as vehicles is my hotrods and it is Chevrolet all the way



Fer Chrissake Choo-Choo- your gonna have an embolism if you stand up....[Hyper]


Simon sez- Stand Up[Muaha]


You gotta thicken the skin a tad if you want to play. Nobody is berating you, just bustin balls a bit.

If you have forgotten more on building a sled then I why did you ask me what the motor was? When I said figure it out I wasnt being a smart ass, I honestly would like to see if you can actually figure out what it is, it's unique.
I wuz gonna give you extra points if you could figger out what the lettering on the tank sez too..........[Ban3][Ban3]

[Bailey Guns]

I am going to find a new forum were people actually know what they are talking about...

Dear Lord...make this happen and I PROMISE I'll go to church every Sunday.

atrain...don't let the forum door hit you on the ass...

[Bailey Guns]

That is what I am talking about you sir are a DUCHE

It's "douche", dumbass.

[sneakerd]

[Beer]

[sneakerd]

The real good part is that Atrain keeps asking questions- looking for opinions or knowledge or whatever- that from his bragging you would assume that he knows. Imho- this guy is a total phony. Nothing personal- just business.

[Graves]

It's "douche", dumbass.

That means a lot coming from you Bailey. [LOL]

[Ah Pook]

I wish I could remember everything I've forgotten. [Dunno][Smart]

How the hell did this move from a caliber debate to a.... a... What the hell is this about? :confused:

[BPTactical]

I wish I could remember everything I've forgotten. [Dunno][Smart]

How the hell did this move from a caliber debate to a.... a... What the hell is this about? :confused:


Guess you could call it "Atrain" wreck there Pooky...........

[Ah Pook]

Guess you could call it "Atrain" wreck there Pooky...........
Dammit, you made me blow bourbon through my nose. Ouch ouch ouch. [Censor]


[Train]

[Irving]

http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/comics/2011-08-03-madaboutsomething.jpg

[jplove71]

http://www.notquitewrong.com/rosscottinc/comics/2011-08-03-madaboutsomething.jpg
Thread winner right there!

[mcantar18c]

Ridin a ricer is like screwing your sister.......................it might feel ok but do you really want your friends to see you doing it?[Muaha]
Reminds me of my uncle's idea of beer: "American beer is like making love in a canoe... they're both f*cking close to water."
While I like both of these analogies, I don't agree with either one.


why will the Yamaha Warrior spank any Harley out there
Damnit Atrain shut the f*ck up! You're not supposed to say shit I agree with!


The only thing American I drive as far as vehicles is my hotrods and it is Chevrolet all the way
Ok, that's better. F*ck Chevy.

I sure do miss my Warrior though (which did kick every Harley's ass we went up against... that's a 1700 v-twin for ya Bert [Beer])

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/33607_434037318963_686058963_5152768_4634682_n.jpg



I am going to find a new forum were people actually know what they are talking about Really 9mm vs 45 who has not talked about that one, has anyone ever thought that maybe I put outlandish stuff out there to see what people know, this git turned into a Harley forum and when I ask a serious question I get a bunch of duchebag answers, that is why I have never been on any forum they all do the same thing, some one will ask a question about a engine and some jack ass will give some answer like your moms tits you guys are all the same
Grow _____
A) A pair
B) Thicker skin
C) Some tits so we at least have a reason to tolerate you



Guess you could call it "Atrain" wreck there Pooky...........
[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]


Thread winner right there!
Amen.


I believe this puts me at Dick Level 2 [Tooth]

[Mick-Boy]

You know Atrain, when I think I'm ok but everyone else is all fucked up I usually re-evaluate my understanding of the situation.

[stevelkinevil]

Ducati, my V-twin of choice! YMMV

[Atrain1]

I should not have said that crap about your bike I got some stuff going on and you struck a nerve talking about my baby, sorry for talking about yours, like I said before I did not me to offend you. I ride a HD to not to often but it gets rung out every once in a while. Thanks for your info you have giving me I am going to try out the AK tomorrow get out some aggression

[Atrain1]

Reminds me of my uncle's idea of beer: "American beer is like making love in a canoe... they're both f*cking close to water."
While I like both of these analogies, I don't agree with either one.


Damnit Atrain shut the f*ck up! You're not supposed to say shit I agree with!


Ok, that's better. F*ck Chevy.

I sure do miss my Warrior though (which did kick every Harley's ass we went up against... that's a 1700 v-twin for ya Bert [Beer])

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/33607_434037318963_686058963_5152768_4634682_n.jpg



Grow _____
A) A pair
B) Thicker skin
C) Some tits so we at least have a reason to tolerate you



[ROFL1][ROFL2][ROFL3]


Amen.


I believe this puts me at Dick Level 2 [Tooth] Now thats what I am talking about, I used to like the meanstreak until that bad boy came out, I build custom metric cruiser or I used to until I got rear ended by a drunk driver.

[Atrain1]

Awww, you takin' your toys home?

http://inspiration.devinambron.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/open-door.jpeg

There it is buddy. [LOL] Honestly I just want to talk to some people that know what they are talking about that is why I enjoyed talking with BP, and I am so tired of educating Kimber owners on there own gun I refuse to do it anymore, for one I will not go through hours of research I have done that is in a cp that I am having problems with, and as soon as I get around to getting an external HD I will be more than happy to post what I have facts.

[Atrain1]

Atrain, if you're gonna cry this is gonna get real awkward. Now you finely said something funny holy crap you do have a since of humor I dont understand it but hey thats okay.

[Graves]

Instead of talking, I'd recommend you listen to the folks who know what they're talkin' about.

-Just sayin [Dunno]

[Bailey Guns]

That is what I am talking about you sir are a DUCHE
It's "douche", dumbass.



That means a lot coming from you Bailey. [LOL]

I knew that wasn't gonna come out right as soon as I hit submit. But I figured so much about this thread was farked anyway that it really didn't make any difference. Then, the more I thought about it, the funnier I thought it was. What can I say? At least I amuse me.

[Beer]

[Bailey Guns]

I'm in that 3-dick to 4-dick range according to that chart. I prolly need a 12-step program.