Carrying on an Indian Reservation

[lebru]

My company won a bid to do IT infrastructure work on the Ute Mountain reservation. Going to be spending 6-8 weeks down there this summer, and wondering what the legitimacy is of me carrying there.


Granted:
They are their own governing entity, and are still under federal protection. A lot of state laws do not apply there as well. I have talked to an anthropologist whose done a lot of work there but he had no idea what to tell me and basically what i've been told is that any crime committed there by non-indians would be considered a federal offense(from several different sources including tribal police). He's even told me about a murder he witnessed, but they couldn't prosecute because the federal government decided it would be too expensive.


So, since it is under federal protection, I would assume that means I can't carry there. Just as any federally owned building or property (Ft. Logan Cemetary, Structures in the National Parks). I know there is a huge grey area dealing with reservation policy...just don't want to get in trouble while i'm down there and they have a huge gang problem.

[Byte Stryke]

My company won a bid to do IT infrastructure work on the Ute Mountain reservation. Going to be spending 6-8 weeks down there this summer, and wondering what the legitimacy is of me carrying there.


Granted:
They are their own governing entity, and are still under federal protection. A lot of state laws do not apply there as well. I have talked to an anthropologist whose done a lot of work there but he had no idea what to tell me and basically what i've been told is that any crime committed there by non-indians would be considered a federal offense(from several different sources including tribal police). He's even told me about a murder he witnessed, but they couldn't prosecute because the federal government decided it would be too expensive.


So, since it is under federal protection, I would assume that means I can't carry there. Just as any federally owned building or property (Ft. Logan Cemetary, Structures in the National Parks). I know there is a huge grey area dealing with reservation policy...just don't want to get in trouble while i'm down there and they have a huge gang problem.


HUGE Difference between federal Protection and Federal Governance and Federal owned.
Speak with the Tribal Police regarding permission, it may have to go to council depending on Tribal law.
Depending on how you approach it, you may get a pass.

[lebru]

HUGE Difference between federal Protection and Federal Governance and Federal owned.
Speak with the Tribal Police regarding permission, it may have to go to council depending on Tribal law.
Depending on how you approach it, you may get a pass.

Thats what I was wondering though, is if those same laws still applied. Because Federal laws are still valid there, but certain state ones aren't. I was kinda hoping to avoid the tribal police because I didn't want them to put me on some sort of list of people to look out for or something....

[Great-Kazoo]

there are only 2 LE agencies allowed on Reservation Land.
1) Tribal Police
2) Federal Agents

No one else has authority or jurisdiction to be on there acting in any LE capacity.
Regarding CCW. If you have a valid Permit and are on Res land i suggest you keep your mouth shut. The only thing you will be doing by "asking" around is draw attention to yourself. That attention will have your vehicle broken in and maybe you getting roughed up by some one wanting your gun. The res is a sovereign nation beholden to its own laws. As one who spends time on the res, those who uphold the laws (not all the time) have only one goal, keep the DUI, DWAI death toll down, small gang squabbles off the radar and minimize any non-native from becoming a statistic.
Do what you feel comfortable doing, just remember a white caller to teh res police will put you in line behind the crowdogs, kids breaking windows in the housing project.
YMMV, my life is my responsibility. Believe me some of the younguns want to push buttons and who's going to come to your aid???

[lebru]

there are only 2 LE agencies allowed on Reservation Land.
1) Tribal Police
2) Federal Agents

No one else has authority or jurisdiction to be on there acting in any LE capacity.
Regarding CCW. If you have a valid Permit and are on Res land i suggest you keep your mouth shut. The only thing you will be doing by "asking" around is draw attention to yourself. That attention will have your vehicle broken in and maybe you getting roughed up by some one wanting your gun. The res is a sovereign nation beholden to its own laws. As one who spends time on the res, those who uphold the laws (not all the time) have only one goal, keep the DUI, DWAI death toll down, small gang squabbles off the radar and minimize any non-native from becoming a statistic.
Do what you feel comfortable doing, just remember a white caller to teh res police will put you in line behind the crowdogs, kids breaking windows in the housing project.
YMMV, my life is my responsibility. Believe me some of the younguns want to push buttons and who's going to come to your aid???

I won't be living on the reservation, staying at a hotel in cortez for the 6 weeks. Will only be spending the days there.

[SA Friday]

Jurisdiction on any reservation is a tricky thing. Not all reservations are Federal and/or tribal. During the Hoover commission of 1949, Public law 280 and H.R. 108 resulted in 109 tribes being "disbanded", and gave the following states jurisdiction over crimes that occur on reservations; AK, CA, NE, WY,MN, and OR. It also gave the rest of the states the choice of taking jurisdiction over a crime on a reservation if they want to claim it.

It changed everything, and re-established a policy of assimilation in e Federal Govts dealings with Indians. So, between the Hoover Commission changes, the subsequent changes in the 70s and all the garbage that preceeded the Hoover Commission, it's a crap shoot as to what laws are in place for the Ute reservation. Talk to the local law enforcement agencies on the reservation to figure it out. They are going to be the only ones who truly have a grasp on what is in place there.

[lebru]

Jurisdiction on any reservation is a tricky thing. Not all reservations are Federal and/or tribal. During the Hoover commission of 1949, Public law 280 and H.R. 108 resulted in 109 tribes being "disbanded", and gave the following states jurisdiction over crimes that occur on reservations; AK, CA, NE, WY,MN, and OR. It also gave the rest of the states the choice of taking jurisdiction over a crime on a reservation if they want to claim it.

It changed everything, and re-established a policy of assimilation in e Federal Govts dealings with Indians. So, between the Hoover Commission changes, the subsequent changes in the 70s and all the garbage that preceeded the Hoover Commission, it's a crap shoot as to what laws are in place for the Ute reservation. Talk to the local law enforcement agencies on the reservation to figure it out. They are going to be the only ones who truly have a grasp on what is in place there.

Ute Mtn is under federal protection. We had a representative come and give us a speech about what to expect while were down there the other week. Also chatted with an Anthropologist who has done a hell of a lot of work down there. I know there is that mentality of "if you carry correctly no one will know anyway" but I am not that type of guy. I also don't want to be on any sort of list of people they need to watch out for while i'm down there.

edit: HCR 108 terminated reservations that were able to sustain themselves. Ute Mtn wasn't one of those....the Pequots were.

[KevDen2005]

Jurisdiction on any reservation is a tricky thing. Not all reservations are Federal and/or tribal. During the Hoover commission of 1949, Public law 280 and H.R. 108 resulted in 109 tribes being "disbanded", and gave the following states jurisdiction over crimes that occur on reservations; AK, CA, NE, WY,MN, and OR. It also gave the rest of the states the choice of taking jurisdiction over a crime on a reservation if they want to claim it.

It changed everything, and re-established a policy of assimilation in e Federal Govts dealings with Indians. So, between the Hoover Commission changes, the subsequent changes in the 70s and all the garbage that preceeded the Hoover Commission, it's a crap shoot as to what laws are in place for the Ute reservation. Talk to the local law enforcement agencies on the reservation to figure it out. They are going to be the only ones who truly have a grasp on what is in place there.


I was about to actually mention this. There is also a list, that can be figured out fairly easily of how crime applies to you on a reservation, not being a resident, and not being a tribal member. A lot things change depending on who you are and why you are there.

I would also not say anything, personally.

[SA Friday]

I was about to actually mention this. There is also a list, that can be figured out fairly easily of how crime applies to you on a reservation, not being a resident, and not being a tribal member. A lot things change depending on who you are and why you are there.

I would also not say anything, personally.
Ya, the list doesn't help either. I've seen it. It's clear as mud, not to mention just how one defines a Native American... It leads to Blood Quantums and more bad policies.

BTW, talked to a very knowledgable person about the LE on the Ute Res. today. It's a mess from a law enforcement and jurisdictional stand point. All bets are off. There are only about four cops for the Res, and the locals occasionally get involved in enforcement, but for the most part the local LE doesn't have the manpower or inclination to "get involved" in Res crimes. Jurisdictionally, by the time you figured it all out, the court costs alone would drive you into destitution. Not worth it IMO unless you get one of the Res cops to sign off on it.

[The Norseman]

Just completed a CCW course here in Durango. We were told that CC on the Southern Ute reservation is not allowed. I would guess maybe same holds true for Ute Mountain Ute rez.

[KevDen2005]

Ya, the list doesn't help either. I've seen it. It's clear as mud, not to mention just how one defines a Native American... It leads to Blood Quantums and more bad policies.

BTW, talked to a very knowledgable person about the LE on the Ute Res. today. It's a mess from a law enforcement and jurisdictional stand point. All bets are off. There are only about four cops for the Res, and the locals occasionally get involved in enforcement, but for the most part the local LE doesn't have the manpower or inclination to "get involved" in Res crimes. Jurisdictionally, by the time you figured it all out, the court costs alone would drive you into destitution. Not worth it IMO unless you get one of the Res cops to sign off on it.


True, not to mention that their court system is set up to handle anything but very low misdemeanor crimes. Pretty much everything is handled outside...the PD is primarily used for immediate response. And the poor locals help when they can for sure but the feds provide them no extra funding when they dump the reservation on their laps and say, "good luck."

[lebru]

Just completed a CCW course here in Durango. We were told that CC on the Southern Ute reservation is not allowed. I would guess maybe same holds true for Ute Mountain Ute rez.

I think they are the same? I am not sure. My ccw class said carrying on reservations is questionable. I figured someone here would know. Granted, I will only be there during normal business hours (8 to 5) and returning to the Hotel at night....I shouldn't have too much of a problem I think. And as long as tribal police don't hassle us (Its a group of college interns down there with us) I think i'll be ok. I haven't gotten a return phone call from tribal police.

[lebru]

True, not to mention that their court system is set up to handle anything but very low misdemeanor crimes. Pretty much everything is handled outside...the PD is primarily used for immediate response. And the poor locals help when they can for sure but the feds provide them no extra funding when they dump the reservation on their laps and say, "good luck."

The reason why their court system is like that is because they are still under federal protection, and anything higher than a very low misdemeanor is considered a federal felony. and since the federal court is up here in denver, they would have to pay to transport all the witnesses, jurors (since they have to be from the reservation), and anything or anybody remotely related to the case, up to denver. and then put them up at hotels and pay for their food, and anything else, as long as the trial is going on. and since federal trials take forever it becomes very costly, and the federal government isn't going to spend that much money to prosecute people on an indian reservation


the anthropologist we consulted said he witnessed a murder take place, back in the 90s, and the gvt had to pay for 50 different people to stay at a hotel for 9 weeks while the trial went on. add food cost, juror pay, and a few other costs, that becomes a very costly endeavor. and since the person on trial is almost always a fellow indian the jury (also indians) never convict. This particular case the guy stabbed someone 21 times (i think thats what he said), and burried him out back. he was able to plead down to animal cruelty because the case just kept dragging on and on and on.



wow that was a novel. but yeah you get the jist of why their court system is so screwed up. they don't have the power to charge federal offenses, and anything over a misdemeanor down there is a federal offense.

[BigBear]

Best bet is to ask the Tribal Police as stated. Even then, get it in writing. Even though there are "laws" and what nots, every reservation is ran differently and it could be nothing, or it could land you in jail.

[Great-Kazoo]

i said it once and will say it one more time.
1) forget about the tribal police, asking for getting a letter or anything else regarding your gun.
while it is indian land the area you will be, might be considered a national park. fed law allows CCW inside national parks.

gangs or not, being other than from the res you may and will quite possibly be tested by the locals, act humble and avoid eye contact. ALWAYS have an exit strategy, your life may depend on it. stick to well lit areas, don't go in to the local establishments unless in a group and avoid ones that serve alcohol. there is no reason to be out after dark.

I have been involved with reservation locals from SW AZ to the Canadian line. like any area once one of the locals feels slighted, or disrespected you will be the focus of attention. keep it cool and very low profile. Don't forget you are and will be outgunned 10-1 not counting the tribal cops.

[legaleagle]

my suggestion having looked into this is to NOT do it. While you may get something in writing the question of whether the council changes their minds on the issue can arise. For example, dealing with vehicle permits and access permits, it is nearly a daily event to correct something that changed. We are told that the person issuing the permits knew this and should have told us, but didn't. Also, they say it is part of the application and it is not. Sometimes, you get into the age old issue of there are two meanings to how something is written. In short, whether you can or cannot can be very ambiguous and vague with interpretation left up to tribal law courts and elders. It simply is not worth the headache to fight a battle if you are wrong.

[lebru]

i said it once and will say it one more time.
1) forget about the tribal police, asking for getting a letter or anything else regarding your gun.
while it is indian land the area you will be, might be considered a national park. fed law allows CCW inside national parks.

gangs or not, being other than from the res you may and will quite possibly be tested by the locals, act humble and avoid eye contact. ALWAYS have an exit strategy, your life may depend on it. stick to well lit areas, don't go in to the local establishments unless in a group and avoid ones that serve alcohol. there is no reason to be out after dark.

I have been involved with reservation locals from SW AZ to the Canadian line. like any area once one of the locals feels slighted, or disrespected you will be the focus of attention. keep it cool and very low profile. Don't forget you are and will be outgunned 10-1 not counting the tribal cops.

We will be working with about 20+5 college students and our employees laying groundwork for high speed internet all day. How are you supposed to keep a low profile wearing a bright orange safety vest along side the highway and a laptop computer, while setting up networks inside their office buildings?

Besides, its not like the indians are going to be sitting there picking on us and waiting for us to do something wrong in the middle of the day. The anthropologist we consultd said they could give a damn less about outsiders and generally leave them alone.

[FireMoth]

Mental note to self: Stay the fuck off of reservations. What a cluster fuck

[lebru]

Mental note to self: Stay the fuck off of reservations. What a cluster fuck

15% bonus of yearly salary (42k) for working 6 week, plus a flat 2500 upon completion, as well as my salary for those 6 weeks. Its like 12 grand for doing that project down there for the Indians, a lot of that is also because I have to put up with college interns. And that $2500 is to reimburse living costs while down there....so subtract that and its still about $10,000 for this little project.


But yeah, there is a huge logistical bullshit about it. But for that money, who cares. I am also taking my 4 weeks of vacation right after it, spending all the money on hookers and blow in Vegas.

[KevDen2005]

1885 Major Crimes Act-What the US Government Enforces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Crimes_Act

There is also the Indian Country Crimes Act and Public Law 280, sorry I didn't provide a link.

I am aware of the logistical and financial problems of them pursuing certain crims, however not every Indian Reservation operates the same with the same applicable laws.

[lebru]

1885 Major Crimes Act-What the US Government Enforces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Crimes_Act

There is also the Indian Country Crimes Act and Public Law 280, sorry I didn't provide a link.

I am aware of the logistical and financial problems of them pursuing certain crims, however not every Indian Reservation operates the same with the same applicable laws.

That still doesn't answer if I can carry there or not. The state has no jurisdiction there to prosecute crimes and many state laws do not apply there. They are their own governing entity, under the federal government.

After doing more research, Arizona doesn't allow carrying of a firearm on a reservation unless you are on a through highway because of the federal protection, and since the Ute Mtn reservation is under the same protection, the same law applies. I would have to be on a through highway or at an emergency stop only.

[KevDen2005]

That still doesn't answer if I can carry there or not. The state has no jurisdiction there to prosecute crimes and many state laws do not apply there. They are their own governing entity, under the federal government.

After doing more research, Arizona doesn't allow carrying of a firearm on a reservation unless you are on a through highway because of the federal protection, and since the Ute Mtn reservation is under the same protection, the same law applies. I would have to be on a through highway or at an emergency stop only.


Uh, sorry, I realize that it doesn't help with the conceal carry issue, I was just trying to help sort out the jargon. I have taken a couple Indian classes now, what on Federal Indian Law (not suggesting that I am an expert) and the reports I did made me realize that I never want to be caught in one of these areas (not that you have much of a choice it seems). The confusion on what is going on is tremendously ridiculous. I know you have a couple different opinions on here telling you not to do it, but me personally I probably would because in most cases as a non-Indian, not living in Indian Country, state law applies to you (not for every case or incident). Plus I would want the peace of mind. Then keep it concealed, keep it secret, it's no one's business but yours. I am not telling you what to do, I am telling you what I would do. Indian Country, to this day, is one of the most dangerous areas in the nation with sky-rocketing crime rates, high number of murders, etc. It is extremely common for drug cartel to make camp in these places, blend in, and open up shop...there are numerous cases now, connected to cartel in Mexico. I would say do what you think you gotta do.

[lebru]

Uh, sorry, I realize that it doesn't help with the conceal carry issue, I was just trying to help sort out the jargon. I have taken a couple Indian classes now, what on Federal Indian Law (not suggesting that I am an expert) and the reports I did made me realize that I never want to be caught in one of these areas (not that you have much of a choice it seems). The confusion on what is going on is tremendously ridiculous. I know you have a couple different opinions on here telling you not to do it, but me personally I probably would because in most cases as a non-Indian, not living in Indian Country, state law applies to you (not for every case or incident). Plus I would want the peace of mind. Then keep it concealed, keep it secret, it's no one's business but yours. I am not telling you what to do, I am telling you what I would do. Indian Country, to this day, is one of the most dangerous areas in the nation with sky-rocketing crime rates, high number of murders, etc. It is extremely common for drug cartel to make camp in these places, blend in, and open up shop...there are numerous cases now, connected to cartel in Mexico. I would say do what you think you gotta do.

I understand. you wanna hear something funny? you know peyote im sure? well the only place is grows is in mexico. now, it is legal for the native american church to smoke peyote, but its illegal for them to transport it across state line. how do you think they get it from mexico, to north dakota without crossing state lines? ;)

i've taken several courses on native american history, and yeah man its a huge fuck load of bullshit. i'm glad they're keeping their culture, thats important, i mean its what we are doing everyday by shooting our guns; but the whole mess with federal regulation over the tribes is just that....a big fucking mess

[KevDen2005]

I understand. you wanna hear something funny? you know peyote im sure? well the only place is grows is in mexico. now, it is legal for the native american church to smoke peyote, but its illegal for them to transport it across state line. how do you think they get it from mexico, to north dakota without crossing state lines? ;)

i've taken several courses on native american history, and yeah man its a huge fuck load of bullshit. i'm glad they're keeping their culture, thats important, i mean its what we are doing everyday by shooting our guns; but the whole mess with federal regulation over the tribes is just that....a big fucking mess


Agreed, and there are a lot of instances where Native American Tribal Councils are not allowing Peyote to be used even though they are allowed to by law. Obviously a lot of drugged up and drunk Indians is not what Tribal Leaders are wanting to progress

[Irving]

Just make sure you know the quickest route the US Embassy at all times.

[lebru]

Agreed, and there are a lot of instances where Native American Tribal Councils are not allowing Peyote to be used even though they are allowed to by law. Obviously a lot of drugged up and drunk Indians is not what Tribal Leaders are wanting to progress

not so much the indians they are worried about, but people from outside the reservation trying to get in for a quick fix on some drugs.

[KevDen2005]

not so much the indians they are worried about, but people from outside the reservation trying to get in for a quick fix on some drugs.


I am just making a point about minorities...

If you are a law abiding black man, every time you see a thug robbing a gas station you are thinking, "why did he have to be black?"

I think Indians are probably thinking something similar.

Also I already pointed out the problems with drug dealers and cartels on the reservations

[KevDen2005]

Just make sure you know the quickest route the US Embassy at all times.


I want to be with you when you ask where the embassy is...

[lebru]

I want to be with you when you ask where the embassy is...

me too :P

[Great-Kazoo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevDen2005 View Post
Agreed, and there are a lot of instances where Native American Tribal Councils are not allowing Peyote to be used even though they are allowed to by law. Obviously a lot of drugged up and drunk Indians is not what Tribal Leaders are wanting to progress

while peyote is or may be abused. the intent of peyote is for use during certain ceremonies, NOT as a recreational drug like meth or booze. peyote is not something that is just handed out to anyone who happens to "wander" on to the res. it doesn't grow on trees where you can pull off the road and grab a few handful's for shits an giggles. Please get your "Facts" straight before commenting.

getting back on track. the main question was about CCW on the res. Your car, and hotel room, is covered by fed law regarding eminent domain. CCW on your person is covered by the state. it has been beaten to death either CCW or don't. DON'T ADVERTISE TO THE TRIBAL POLICE YOU HAVE A GUN. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS. IF you still don't get it leave your firearm at home.

[Bailey Guns]

I am also taking my 4 weeks of vacation right after it, spending all the money on hookers and blow in Vegas.

Most people would just waste that money.

[KevDen2005]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevDen2005 View Post
Agreed, and there are a lot of instances where Native American Tribal Councils are not allowing Peyote to be used even though they are allowed to by law. Obviously a lot of drugged up and drunk Indians is not what Tribal Leaders are wanting to progress

while peyote is or may be abused. the intent of peyote is for use during certain ceremonies, NOT as a recreational drug like meth or booze. peyote is not something that is just handed out to anyone who happens to "wander" on to the res. it doesn't grow on trees where you can pull off the road and grab a few handful's for shits an giggles. Please get your "Facts" straight before commenting.

getting back on track. the main question was about CCW on the res. Your car, and hotel room, is covered by fed law regarding eminent domain. CCW on your person is covered by the state. it has been beaten to death either CCW or don't. DON'T ADVERTISE TO THE TRIBAL POLICE YOU HAVE A GUN. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND GO ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS. IF you still don't get it leave your firearm at home.

Jim, I do have my fact straight, I never said anything about it growing on trees...there is tons of case law about Tribes and Tribal Churches going after Indians for abusing Peyote for recreational use...as well as the people that were non-Indians that they were sharing the Peyote with.

But I do agree with you on not advertising

[KevDen2005]

Most people would just waste that money.

Good one [ROFL2]

[Great-Kazoo]

Jim, I do have my fact straight, I never said anything about it growing on trees...there is tons of case law about Tribes and Tribal Churches going after Indians for abusing Peyote for recreational use...as well as the people that were non-Indians that they were sharing the Peyote with.

But I do agree with you on not advertising

YES we agree on the advertising. which to me is where the OP started out then it has veered off into other areas. Concealed means Concealed. whether in the supermarket , wally world, even the RES.
OT. there have been times where in a "rare' case of menits i oops forget my carry piece. At this point i turn to the spouse and ask . Say you do have your gun on you yes?? to which i get this typical spousal face and " I can't believe you even asked me a question that stupid".

[KevDen2005]

YES we agree on the advertising. which to me is where the OP started out then it has veered off into other areas. Concealed means Concealed. whether in the supermarket , wally world, even the RES.
OT. there have been times where in a "rare' case of menits i oops forget my carry piece. At this point i turn to the spouse and ask . Say you do have your gun on you yes?? to which i get this typical spousal face and " I can't believe you even asked me a question that stupid".


Just trying to help provide useful info and good conversation about similar issues...

And I know the face you are talking about