View Full Version : Had an incident today...opinions
So I am pretty much an owner of my own plubic buisneness. I had a so called customer come in today but act real shady( i am located in north aurora). He came in texting or something on the phone. He then stood in the same spot and kept at it with his phone and looked around here and there. He would not purchase anything and when spoken to just nod his head. I notice the whole time he would not let his left hand leave his sweater. I then became really suspicious and slowly adjusted my carry weapon to a super fast draw. Remember it had now been about 10 min of him doing absolutely nothing in the store. I then began running a lot of different scenarios through my head, started thinking about how in 2 months I am going to be a father, what about my employees, etc. Then I decided I need to get him out the door and see what his actual intentions are in my store. It has now been about 15-20 minutes. As I walk to the backroom I take a quick glance at him and I can see him stare at me out of the corner of his eyes. I watch him through the camera and watch him every now and then stare towards the backroom. If this was a robbery, I knew being back there and him not knowing what one person was doing would possibly deter him from doing anything. After about 20-30 he finally picks something up and purchases the item. As he leaves I watch him through another camera. Staring directly at his face he then pauses, look back at the backroom once more, nod his head, and leaves.
I found this VERY suspicious as a robbery attempt and would like some opinions to what others may think? Am I just being paranoid? I also would like opinions on if there was a robbery actually take place and god forbid but I had to draw my firearm, when would be the right time? Does he have to fire at me to be consider defending my life? Of course coughing up whatever he wants would be the number 1 thing for me to do but just so many "what ifs" I had to post and hear some opinions. Thanks guys
I also forgot to mention a APD LEO that tends to drop by my business on occasion drop buy and told me to beware that there were a string of robberies around the neighborhood. Also is this something I should report? Thanks again
I think you should report it and offer the video, might help them.
Report it and go with your gut. If someone is giving you bad vibes and just standing around, make them buy something or leave. Better to make one guy angry than be robbed because you didn't take action.
Dunno that you should report it. It was suspicious but he did nothing wrong. IMO you should have confronted him and asked if there was something you could help him with. If someone comes into my lobby and stands around for more then a minute without doing anything that's what I do. It opens dialect, and initiates action.
No harm in reporting suspicious activity.
ldmaster
02-25-2011, 01:03
Your gut said "bad guy" therefore, it was a bad guy.
But consider, also, that today was a cold day - and there are an increasing number of people who take advantage of the free warmth offered by businesses while they wait for other things to happen.
APD wont use your info, trust me on this, it will go nowhere. But make a copy of the tape/video for your future reference. Don't know if you're using digital or VHS tapes, but VHS tapes have a measured shelf life and more than one business owner has gone to review an incident, only to have horrible image quality.
It's always difficult to know what to do. But I find that doing things out of the ordinary seem to offer some rewards. Get out from behind the counter, go do something (anything) that's behind the bad guy. Offer to help him find something, this often gets you a better feel as to why they are there.
Frankly a lot of customers are just RUDE people these days, and think nothing of coming in, using your bathroom and other amenities you provide for your real customers.
The single robber scenario is usually:
Hang out in the back of the store.
Wait til no customers are queued up.
Approach the clerk and ask for something that will necessitate the clerk either turn their back, or otherwise espose themselves. This is a most vulnerable moment, because it almost seems like they're a real customer at this point. Almost all armed robberies at retail stores start with an innocuous purchase, like cigarettes.
But if your gut says danger, then there's danger!
But about now you should be standing behind your counter, and practicing drills to draw from concealment (I assume you carry concealed), getting the gun out at need is diffucult enough - train your body to do what you need to do BEFORE you need to do it. I'd also suggest carrying a second pistol, one you can get to if you are crouching down or prone (like an ankle gun), consider the physical positions you might get into and accomodate them. A panic alarm with a loud siren isn't a bad idea either. Doesn't need to be connected to anything. Set it off, and then tell the bad guy it's the fire alarm and he needs to leave.
This kind of stuff always catches you slightly off-balance, the more you listen to your instincts the better chance you have to stay alive. The adrenaline dump is the most confusing part of things, the sweating and heart palpitations, the feeling that you gotta run or DO something - then the inevitable need to go to the bathroom after it's over. It makes you feel slightly powerless in the immediate aftermath, until you realize that your body was doing everything it needed to do to help you stay alive and it's not a hinderance as long as you know WHY it's happening.
Byte Stryke
02-25-2011, 08:05
+1
Make a DIGITAL Copy to preserve video quality.
ALWAYS trust your instincts, when the SHTF and its you out there alone, its all you have.
IF you feel a person is a predator, shift.
Do not wait for him/Her to initiate. Don't let them become comfortable in your environment.
Remember:
Contact, Contact, Contact.
"Can I help you Find Anything today?"
"We have a special on _______."
"Pretty Cold out today, they are calling for snow this weekend."
"Are you waiting for someone?"
BE POLITE but FOCUSED
If you contact an idle customer every 3-5 Minutes they either Buy something and leave or just leave.
Either way, it's an idle customer that was giving you the heeby-jeebies and you were polite about it.
Just my 2 cents
edit: if you have someone else in the back and your sense is that its "bad getting worse", call the PD and ask for a courtesy visit.
It cant hurt
Thanks guys for the suggestions and comments. I'm going to have to think about things a lot more. "I" am going have to change how I handle things as well. Thanks again so much for all the advise.
Byte Stryke
02-25-2011, 09:39
so now begs the question,
Do you want us to visit your business when we are in the area?
Where are you and whats the name?
What do you sell?
There have been cases of people using iphone cameras to capture pics and videos of stores in order to case them for security and figure out a game plan... Be ever vigilante, trust your gut. If I owned my own business, I would not let people stand around. I would engage them. Trust your gut as mentioned.
SA Friday
02-25-2011, 10:33
Ya. I'm with bear on this. He pulled way too much time and exposure for a robbery IMO. It sounds like pre-operational surveillance. If you have a robbery crew working the area and they are good enough to avoid getting caught for long periods of time, they are doing pre-op planning and surveillance.
More than likely, he didn't like what he saw if that's the case. He saw he was being watched, taped, and probably caught the fact you repositioned your pistol.
I could have been. The thought definitely had crossed my mind. I think I'm just going to have to keep my eyes open and stay alert for the next couple weeks. Man this was just my very first sketchy moment in 3 years and most likely there will more to come. Btw if anyone does want some info to drop by etc, shoot me a pm an will let you know. I think for now I'm going to take some advise and try not to be in the same spot all the time and just keep moving. Thanks again
hurley842002
02-25-2011, 11:33
Just go with your gut, and always be vigilant. I will however leave you with one thought, there are often times when my GF will send me to the store (yes I get sent to the store), and either I haven't listened well, or she hasn't explained well, and I will stand around the store waiting for further instruction via text, just another thought, but you should always go with your gut.
That is exactly why I didn't say anything nor do anything irrational. I simply walked back to my backroom. This is why I chose to post, to get opinions, and I do appreciate them. I went over the video from yesterday and will say something wasn't right although I am not clear of his intentions.
hurley842002
02-25-2011, 12:13
That is exactly why I didn't say anything nor do anything irrational. I simply walked back to my backroom. This is why I chose to post, to get opinions, and I do appreciate them. I went over the video from yesterday and will say something wasn't right although I am not clear of his intentions.
Sounds like removing yourself from the potential threat, and just monitoring was the best decision you could have made.
rockhound
02-25-2011, 12:31
he was casing the joint, contact the officer that came in to talk to you. he may even have a jacket on this guy already.
Ranger353
02-25-2011, 12:39
he was casing the joint, contact the officer that came in to talk to you. he may even have a jacket on this guy already.
+1. I would be surprised if that wasn't the point of this. Simple casing with digital photos of the interior, location of cash register, camera locations and angles, etc...
Be safe.
I found this VERY suspicious as a robbery attempt and would like some opinions to what others may think? Am I just being paranoid? I also would like opinions on if there was a robbery actually take place and god forbid but I had to draw my firearm, when would be the right time? Does he have to fire at me to be consider defending my life? Of course coughing up whatever he wants would be the number 1 thing for me to do but just so many "what ifs" I had to post and hear some opinions. Thanks guys
As soon as you have a clear threat, like a visible weapon or a verbal threat (This be a holdup, yo!), you can defend your self or others under state law, if you have "reason to believe you or another person are in danger of great physical harm or death".
I agree this guy was probably casing the business for a potential robbery. If open carry is an option (without spooking your real customers), this can send a strong message to potential miscreants. I'm fortunate in that my business is in a reasonably safe area, not subject to a lot of random foot traffic, and my potential customers are generally pretty firearms friendly. Still, there have been times when I have chosen open carry, particularly when I am here late in evening during the summer alone.
SideShow Bob
02-25-2011, 13:47
Hopefully you joined the digital age and upgraded your surveillance system from VHS. After rerecording over and over on the same tape the video is worthless.
If not replace your tapes, use one for each day of the week, and replace them with new ones every month. Then upgrade to a digital system as soon as possible.
It sounds like this person was casing your business for a near future robbery, so if you see him again, be on your toes and ready to draw on him.
Haha yes I have all up to date stuff. Everything gets recorded to a hard drive. I plan on making a copy of his photo and leaving his picture behind the counter.
ldmaster
02-25-2011, 15:14
in ANY business, is there any reason to believe that your store might be targeted?
For instance, the perception that you have lots of cash on hand.
That whatever products you sell, might gain them cash from a pawnshop.
That whatever it is you sell is especially valuable.
For this reason, typical cash operations, like mom and pop groceries get targeted more frequently. Remember the check cashing place up near Thornton where the father/son had a shootout?
Marijuana dispensaries too. Huge targets! Even those that are using mostly credit/debit cards, the bad guys figure they can steal your wares and resell them.
So is your fear of robbery reasonable enough when compared to the perfectly valid reasons someone may just be standing there? I carry openly into banks, and never get any trouble. Sometimes a stare or two, but a friendly hi always eases the tension. Robbers come in all shapes and sizes, I'm not saying this is YOU, but profiling someone based on race or age can lead you down a paranoid path, or perhaps cause you to ease your vigilance because the guy who just came in is in his mid forties, cleancut and white.
it's sorta sad, really, because like cops you start looking at EVERYBODY to assess their potential threat...
This whole deal sucks. I always been suspicious of petty theft but that's just a "oh that bastard" after the fact. This is a whole new thing. As for profiling, if I actually did that I would have to close the store because I would be driving myself crazy haha. So what do you guys think about bullet proof glass around the whole counter? My wife told me it might not be a bad investment.
What type of store do you have?...
lead_magnet
02-25-2011, 16:25
Personally I would (probably) have told him in no uncertain terms to get the $#*# out of my store. And if he so much as asks why inform him that he is trespassing and that you're calling the cops. Make the first move and see how he reacts. Always better to be on the offensive if you ask me. You don't have to be a cop to ask someone to take thier hands out of thier pockets either. Let him know in no uncertain terms that you know he is up to no good and call him on it so he knows that behavior won't fly there and that your "on to him" so to speak.
Thats just me though, maybe thats why nobody likes me.
Hahahahah btw it's a liq. store
This whole deal sucks. I always been suspicious of petty theft but that's just a "oh that bastard" after the fact. This is a whole new thing. As for profiling, if I actually did that I would have to close the store because I would be driving myself crazy haha. So what do you guys think about bullet proof glass around the whole counter? My wife told me it might not be a bad investment.
This might increase safety, but it is not likely to improve your image with your clientele. If this is an isolated incident, then the investment will be relatively large for minimal gain. Besides, working in that environment is not likely to improve the quality of the employees you attract, or the morale of current ones. If you're in the area I think you are, I'm probably already a customer, and I know what you mean by "not the best neighborhood"...LOL
Lex_Luthor
02-25-2011, 16:47
25-30 minutes in a liquor store, mostly standing there, shifty eyes, then finally just picked something up to purchase, noted the back room and walked out??? Yeah that raises a lot of red flags. I have NEVER spent that long in a liquor store, even when I was browsing Total Beverage looking for a nice wine for a gift.
Exactly...and if he was browsing that's one thing but how could you stand right in between both of us and do nothing but play with your phone. Atleast I'm starting to get I wasn't just being paranoid.
Busta Prima
02-25-2011, 16:50
I would report it but only because the PD warned you about businesses being hit in your area. That video could help them ID someone. Had you not been told of a problem in the area, then I would say don't report it, but it was good that you were on "yellow alert" the whole time.
Watermagnet
02-25-2011, 17:13
Hahahahah btw it's a liq. store
Aurora has liquor stores???[Beer]
I think you did the right thing by trusting your gut; sounds like he was definitely sizing up your establishment. I would 100% report it, let them decide if they want pics/tape...Maybe next time hand him a bottle of your special and "force" him to take his hands out???
SideShow Bob
02-25-2011, 17:15
Since they know that you have video surveillance, you need to hide your DVR and put a cheap DVD in plain site in your back room with a few coax cables running out of it and powered up with a copy of " I"m Gonna Get You Sucka " stuck in it. So if you do get robbed they are going to look for your recorder and see the DVD and take the disk or both. But you will still have the real recordings. And don't let your employees in on this in case it is an inside job.
Also if you have a glass counter at your register, put a micro camera under the glass aimed up at an angle to record the faces of someone standing at the counter. So if they are wearing a hoodie to hide their faces from your other cameras you can get a clear facial shot.
I haven't caught up on the thread yet, so sorry if someone already said this...You need to get your "Robbery Free Zone" signs up ASAP!
SideShow Bob
02-25-2011, 17:52
http://i31.tinypic.com/1zr03e9.jpg
This will keep you safe and let you sleep soundly at night.
So where do I get a sign?
he was casing the joint, contact the officer that came in to talk to you. he may even have a jacket on this guy already.
+2
If you look at most of the details separately, it could be nothing. But for all of these things to happen at once (time spent in store, hand in pocket, on the phone the whole time, stationary position, shifty/darting eyes, etc), seems too convenient to just be a coincidence. I would agree that you should contact the officer that mentioned the robberies in your area. At least explain what happened and offer to let them see the surveilance footage.
ldmaster
02-25-2011, 23:53
Post a sign: "all customers must display ID proving they are over the age of 21"
Then it's easy to ask to see someone's ID - after you got a name, they don't like coming back if they are criminals.
Your video without personal identification is nearly useless, cops don't have "jackets" anymore, they have databases, and to search a database you need identifying information. Aside from area watches and bolo's MOST robbery details involve the whole DART team from Aurora. It takes a LOT of activity to get DART involved... About five years back there was a string of burglaries taking place on the fairways at Heather Gardens, I'm talking more than fifty in a three month period, the burglars got so brazen they were even entering occupied homes. Took a significant amount of screaming to get Aurora PD on it, they caught the guys in three days with enough saturation.
theGinsue
02-26-2011, 01:14
There have been cases of people using iphone cameras to capture pics and videos of stores in order to case them for security and figure out a game plan... Be ever vigilante, trust your gut. If I owned my own business, I would not let people stand around. I would engage them. Trust your gut as mentioned.
+1. I would be surprised if that wasn't the point of this. Simple casing with digital photos of the interior, location of cash register, camera locations and angles, etc...
Be safe.
Oh yeah, this was definitely a surveillance run. He was also testing you to see what your reactions were to him.
Consider moving things around a bit within your store as well - particualrly near hte front of the store. Of course, keep clear lines of visibility, but even moving a register, display stands, etc. can throw off a potential robbery. They'll notice that the existing setup doesn't match the surveillance pics they have and have practiced their robbery for.
While neighboring businesses may not be getting considered a target, consider passing the information you have on to these businesses as well. It's possible that you'll get them to realize they've been surveilled too.
Get the business card of the officer who regularly comes into your store and keep it handy. In fact, keep it alongside the phone with Aurora's non-emergency PD or "Crime Stoppers" numbers. Your gut starts giving your Spidey Sense a tingle, call and ask for an expedited courtesy visit. If the PD had arrived while this guy was in the store, it could have been just enough to tell him that your store is too much of a hard target.
Byte Stryke
02-26-2011, 07:56
Oh yeah, this was definitely a surveillance run. He was also testing you to see what your reactions were to him.
If the PD had arrived while this guy was in the store, it could have been just enough to tell him that your store is too much of a hard target.
THIS
and I want to reiterate: contact contact contact.
legaleagle
02-26-2011, 09:53
My first thought was casing the place too. As far as when you shoot someone, the simple answer is this (the distinction being made is what a prosecutor will do too) -- it is never ok to shoot someone, that's murder; it is however ok to defend yourself, but there are limits on the level of force you can use.
With self defense, remember that you are in your business and not your residence. THis means that you cannot presume he is there to do you harm or your family; no make my day law here. This has not yet been extended although proposed in the state legislature. Thus, you must be faced with deadly force or serious bodily injury before you may use deadly force to defend yourself. There is no bright line or litmus test to know this, but if you believe your were going to die or be shot (ie the deadly or serioud bodily injury part) then you may raise your level of force to equal the force of the threat. You cannot exceed the level of force you are faced with.
With the defense of others, be careful. If the person you are defending did not have the right to defend themselves with deadly force, you do not either. Think of this as stepping into their shoes. Under the law, you become them and are judged as if you were in their shoes.
Defense of property is another consideration. As a general principle of law, you cannot (ie never) defend your property with deadly force. The absolute truism here is that YOU are not faced with force as discussed above. Recall, the gentleman in westminster (IIRC) that shot at two guys stealing his truck and trailer. As I recall he said that he was not in danger. Therefore, using deadly force to shoot at someone was a problem for him, thus attempted murder, at least. Had he said they tried to run him over and then he used deadly force, the situation could have been different.
Escalation of force. You can only meet deadly force upon you with deadly force. Thus, lower levels of force are ok. However, if you escalate too fast, you could be ceome the aggressor and give someone else the defense. For example, the guy and the truck and trailer. If he raised his gun before being threatened by being run over, one could argue the perp had the right to defend himself.
Conclusion. There is no easy answer. There are some scenarios that are easier to evaluate than others. Hindsight is always 20/20, but that does not work as the situation you are in is not a post hoc analysis; it is unfolding in front of you. So, the best thing to remmeber is that you must first be faced with a reasonably objective threat of deadly force so that you may legally raise your level of responsive force to meet that level for which you are faced with.
I hope this helps your understanding of why it is never ok to shoot someone, rather it is ok to defend yourself. I also hope this helps you think about how to better handle your situation. At a minimum, I would ocntact the police department and get on record this incident. This paper trail could be your best friend. If the SHTF and then you say this guy come in before and cased the place, the police and the prosecutor will question why you didn;t call it in. More troubling, a jury could likely believe you were not previously threatened as you did nothing before. - THis is not good for you - make a record. If the police decide to do nothing, you get to say that you did what you could at the time. THis also allows the jury to consider that the police did nthing for you and you had to act.
Don't forget that when you call 911, or your employees do, the phone is tape recorded. Everything you say is evidence. Be careful about what you say and how you say it as you could be hurting yourself and not helping.
Please remember, this discussion is only that, a discussion. THis does not constitute a legal opinion or advice.
legaleagle
02-26-2011, 09:56
MOD EDIT: Double Post
Byte Stryke
02-26-2011, 12:17
Location: undisclosed location
Please rectify this as per forum rules
KevDen2005
02-26-2011, 14:12
I haven't read everyone's posts but will say definitely report it. APD may be looking for him as a possible suspect in a string of robberies that you were told about.
Look at Colorado Revised Statutes:
18-1-704 and 18-1-705. For the jist of it you have to reasonably believe that your life is in iminent danger...for example you see a gun or you know from video that this guy pulled a gun on another store owner, etc. There are tons of examples but you get the point. As a reminder your business is not a dwelling (your house) so there has to be more than them just being inside the business and you having a hunch.
You as a business owner can have anyone leave your private property at your discretion without any real justification and I wouldn't try to justify it to them if they ask why. Just tell them to leave (if that's what you want) or you will call the police. Just be careful of brandishing your weapon, remember, criminals know the law and will easily call the police on law abiding citizens to just be that person.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for all the info, I already knew about the whole protecting your life and not property thing but if someone was to pull a gun out on you isn't that "protection yourself" at that point. With business I already know how icky it can get, as learned in my carry class but still and always will be confused. That is why I hope not to ever have to use or even brandish my weapon. Oh and btw updated the location.
KevDen2005
02-26-2011, 15:12
If they pull a gun on you then yes, I would go with you have the right to defend yourself...but you gotta be afraid, you can't say, "Oh, I thought it was a water pistol and wasn't scared." That will probably get you into trouble
Good post legalEagle. I believe the trailer incident happened in Wheat Ridge though.
legaleagle
02-26-2011, 21:57
Couldn't remember, but the place was not the issue. FWIW - previsous history of the bad guy does not dictate the situation at hand in your presence. You cannot use another situation occurring previously in history, as a predictin of future history, to justify deadly force. It is the situation at hand that matters. The prior knowledge and history should serve to better prepare yourself to do things to avoid being caught off guard. IF this guy is a known robber, you could be placing yourself into a very bad situation by confronting him. You would be better served to use that information to employ tactics to avoid using deadly force and leaving it as a last resort.
On the flip side, this information can also work agasint you. If you know the guy is bad and send an employee to engage as a customer, you could be setting the whels in motion for the employee to get hurt and then file a civil suit. Not saying htis would happen, but knowledge can work against you too.
I know, I just wanted to post the correct location in case anyone wanted to look it up.
The additional information you just posted is very valuable as well. Having previous knowledge that someone is a felon (and for good reason) is no excuse to escalate a situation. That makes perfect legal sense, and I've never really thought of it in that way before.
legaleagle
02-26-2011, 23:25
Having taught some ccw classes for hte legal portion, as well as NRA classes, I am stunned how uneducated people are about carry a gun and when to use it or not. THis is very eye opening for most people. I also represented police officers in criticals and provide a perspective not many know about for how the cops handle things, as well as IA.
I usually ask everyone in class when it is ok to kill someone. Everybody fails that question.
sorry to get off track. Appreciate the compliments.
Wow... But yeah in either case for me to avoid anything is number one. I rather lose some $$ then even have to draw my weapon. I always thought I knew what I would do, till this happened. Just time to re-think everything. This is a business and I know things don't work the same as a home or even in public, that's why I get so confused with everything. I already know what you guys mean by the water pistol thing. About a year ago I had a guy get smart, act tough, and put his hand in his pants like he was going to pull a gun out. Nothing happened obviously and I knew he wasn't really a threat but if I had assumed and pull out my firearm, I'm pretty sure I would have been in some kind of trouble.
On another note my employee accidentally hit the alarm today, I got the passcode wrong and police showed up. Apologized to the police and since they were already here, I began to tell them about the incident. They just told me to call. So that was actually pointless. I know the officer that came by to warn me works days and I run into him all the time so I'll probably talk to him come tues.
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