Suppressed AR

[marty]

A few questions:
1. Just how quiet is a suppressed AR with a 16 in. barrel using M193 type ammo?
2. Is it quiet enough to shoot w/o ear protection?
3. Any opinions on the best / quietest can to use?

[gcrookston]

A few answers:
1. It's about as quiet as an unsuppressed AR using high quality hearing protection (-35 dB).
2. Yes
3. I shot about half a dozen different cans ranging in price from $600 to $1,400 (plus tax), and I decided on the YHM 7.62 Phantom with QD flash hider because a) I couldn't hear the difference between it and cans costing over twice as much, and b) I can only shoot one gun at a time, so the QD + multi calibre feature really appeals to me -- I shoot it on my AR10 as well.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/gcrookston/DSC00284.jpg

[tmckay2]

cue to yhm haters


A few answers:
1. It's about as quiet as an unsuppressed AR using high quality hearing protection (-35 dB).
2. Yes
3. I shot about half a dozen different cans ranging in price from $600 to $1,400 (plus tax), and I decided on the YHM 7.62 Phantom with QD flash hider because a) I couldn't hear the difference between it and cans costing over twice as much, and b) I can only shoot one gun at a time, so the QD + multi calibre feature really appeals to me -- I shoot it on my AR10 as well.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/gcrookston/DSC00284.jpg

[Zak Smith]

A few notes:

1. A lot of sound comes back through the action. A suppressed AR-15 will seem louder than a bolt rifle with the same bbl length, ammo, and can.

2. Claims aside, I don't think we've metered a .223 suppressor that had a report of 130 dB or less (mil-spec procedure and meter).

[gcrookston]

A few notes:

1. A lot of sound comes back through the action. A suppressed AR-15 will seem louder than a bolt rifle with the same bbl length, ammo, and can.

2. Claims aside, I don't think we've metered a .223 suppressor that had a report of 130 dB or less (mil-spec procedure and meter).


The best reviews I've seen are at www.silencerresearch.com. Using M193, they've gotten a few down to 137db (14.5" M4), using subsonic they report 119 dB (suppressed) or so out of the same rifle. When you consider a hammer strike on an empty chamber of a Ruger 10-22 or Browning Buckmark is over 100dB, that's not too shabby.

[Zak Smith]

I was referring to full power ammunition. 137 dB is not really hearing safe.

[Irving]

Can't you just cough at the same time as you pull the trigger? Like when you used to open a can of Mt Dew, under the desk, in English class in high school.

[tmckay2]

I was referring to full power ammunition. 137 dB is not really hearing safe.

pretty much everyone that uses suppressors consistently shoots them without hearing protection. thats kind of the point. its not that loud. the only reason its still even that loud is because of the crack of the bullet due to speed. if you use subsonic, you basically get a click and a very soft muffled sound. sounds about like a 22. you really can't get any quieter due to simply physics. you either have a super sonic bullet and the crack that comes with it, or a sub sonic round with no crack. take your pick.

the suppressor helps drastically reduce the "boom" of the gases through the muzzle, but the only option to eliminate bullet noise is by shooting sub sonic. its not a video game.

[Zak Smith]

I know a thing or two about silencers and sound meters.

Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If you are unfamiliar with the sound-levels that cause hearing damage, do some research. Here's a quick link that gives an overview http://hearinglosshelp.com/weblog/what-are-safe-sound-levels.php

[Great-Kazoo]

pretty much everyone that uses suppressors consistently shoots them without hearing protection. thats kind of the point. its not that loud. the only reason its still even that loud is because of the crack of the bullet due to speed. if you use subsonic, you basically get a click and a very soft muffled sound. sounds about like a 22. you really can't get any quieter due to simply physics. you either have a super sonic bullet and the crack that comes with it, or a sub sonic round with no crack. take your pick.

the suppressor helps drastically reduce the "boom" of the gases through the muzzle, but the only option to eliminate bullet noise is by shooting sub sonic. its not a video game.

while a suppressor does help reduce the sonic crack, a single shot such as one of those NEF's, bolt or lever actions where all the gas is vented through the muzzle end, will be much quieter than a semi.
semi's loaded with subs or regular velocity ammo still vent gas and sound back (or out) towards the shooter.
my bolts actions loaded with standard ammo using a DB meter are much quieter than the same load through my ar or ak.

[Great-Kazoo]

I know a thing or two about silencers and sound meters.

You DO ???:)

Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If you are unfamiliar with the sound-levels that cause hearing damage, do some research. Here's a quick link that gives an overview http://hearinglosshelp.com/weblog/what-are-safe-sound-levels.php

[Hoser]

pretty much everyone that uses suppressors consistently shoots them without hearing protection.

Not me. You still have the sonic crack to deal with. Subsonic ammo, sure. Supersonic, not at all.

[Hoser]

I know a thing or two about silencers and sound meters.

Awwww come on Zak. Just because you build suppressors for a living does not mean you might know what you are talking about.

[Ranger]

It seems like a lot of folks are using suppressors, I'm wondering how difficult it is to get one. I've never really bothered with either a suppressor or fully automatic because it seems like a massive pain in the butt to get either but would like to have both.

[gcrookston]

It seems like a lot of folks are using suppressors, I'm wondering how difficult it is to get one. I've never really bothered with either a suppressor or fully automatic because it seems like a massive pain in the butt to get either but would like to have both.


I've owned both and currently have a couple of cans. It's a pretty simple, but time consuming process. Complete a form 4, get fingerprinted and photographed, get the LEO to sign off, mail it in with your check and wait. In 1991 it took about 3 weeks to get it back for an HK33. in 2009 it took about 5 months for a can for my .45.

[Zak Smith]

Suppressor sales are booming, and with more and more Class 3 (SOT) dealers around, it's easy to handle the product you're thinking about buying, or even get an in-person shooting demonstration. The Form 4 process is not complicated, just time consuming (like gcrookston said), but the Class 3 dealer will basically help you through it. The most annoying thing I found was getting the passport photo and stopping by the Sheriff's office.

A suppressed AR is cool, no doubt. At the 3Gun match yesterday Ray shot our 7" suppressed M16 (and used full-auto on stage 1), and it sounds really good. However, there are some downsides of a suppressed AR: not as quiet as a bolt gun, increased heat and backpressure, rifle gets dirty a lot faster.

In terms of "bang for buck", I think a .22LR suppressor is the most fun for the money, while a suppressor on a bolt gun works the best and provides the most real benefits to shooting.

As far as the ear protection issue-- if you are serious about retaining your hearing into old age, when shooting full-power centerfire ammunition, you should double up, e.g.: muffs and plugs, or suppressor and plugs. If you are in a situation where you can't wear plugs (such as hunting or as a LEO), then a suppressor will reduce the amount of hearing damage you accumulate over time.

[tmckay2]

I know a thing or two about silencers and sound meters.

Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If you are unfamiliar with the sound-levels that cause hearing damage, do some research. Here's a quick link that gives an overview http://hearinglosshelp.com/weblog/what-are-safe-sound-levels.php


don't get your panties in a wad. no one disputed your all knowingness. of course 137 Db CAN hurt you, but you sound like my mother. fact is people shoot without hearing protection all the time while using suppressors. i never said i recommended it, i said it happens. hell, my grandpa never used hearing protection in WW2 for three years, nor did any of my friends in iraq or afghanistan (although they were supposed to) and all of them are fine. if you sit there and shoot 2000 rounds a year for 20 years without hearing protection even with a suppressor, yeah you are probably going to have hearing issues. shooting with a suppressor and no hearing protection for 50-100 rounds once in a while isn't going to destroy your hearing.

[Zak Smith]

Wow, I'm convinced!

[tmckay2]

Wow, I'm convinced!

glad to hear it, even though i don't know what youre convinced of since i wasn't making a particular point.

[DeadElephant]

My father owned a gun club when I was just a kid. I worked their every weekend. Virtually no one wore hearing protection. I never did.

I'm now old.

I have 90% loss in my left ear and 60% loss in my right.

I can't hear my girls when they talk to me.

It sucks

Wear hearing protectors.

I do now, yes even when shooting suppressed.

[Great-Kazoo]

My father owned a gun club when I was just a kid. I worked their every weekend. Virtually no one wore hearing protection. I never did.

I'm now old.

I have 90% loss in my left ear and 60% loss in my right.

I can't hear my girls when they talk to me.

It sucks

Wear hearing protectors.

I do now, yes even when shooting suppressed.

who said you can bring first hand knowledge of hearing loss in to this conversation :)

you'd be surprised how little noise depending on the person could cause temporary hearing loss.

[BigBear]

Musician and gun owner... I can't remember the last time I went ANYWHERE without a set of plugs in my pocket! HAHA.

Anything can damage your hearing, whether it's a one time event or a continuous noise. The cases of tendinitis (sp? ..ringing sound in ears) have been increasing in number over the years.

Hearing in my left ear was damaged by 30% by a car wreck!!... Be careful with your hearing!!

If I ever get out from under my mountain of debt, I'd love to get a can. That being said, I'm sure I'll still wear at least plugs when firing.

[Ranger]

Suppressor sales are booming, and with more and more Class 3 (SOT) dealers around

Who is a reputable class 3 SOT dealer in town (I'm Southwest Denver) that would be a good shop to deal with for this? I'm not really too concerned with cost, it's just been such a headache to get it done but I'm now motivated to do so!

Thanks!

[Zak Smith]

Alan's shop (Machinegun Tours) is in Denver.

Denver Bullet has also done transfers, but I don't think they are a retail dealer.

There are about to be a few more retail NFA dealers in northern Colorado.

[Busta Prima]

don't get your panties in a wad. no one disputed your all knowingness. of course 137 Db CAN hurt you, but you sound like my mother. fact is people shoot without hearing protection all the time while using suppressors. i never said i recommended it, i said it happens. hell, my grandpa never used hearing protection in WW2 for three years, nor did any of my friends in iraq or afghanistan (although they were supposed to) and all of them are fine. if you sit there and shoot 2000 rounds a year for 20 years without hearing protection even with a suppressor, yeah you are probably going to have hearing issues. shooting with a suppressor and no hearing protection for 50-100 rounds once in a while isn't going to destroy your hearing.

+1

Also, the meters are typically placed to the side but still in FRONT of the muzzle when they do these measurements. You shouldn't get anywhere near that many decibels from the shooter's position. If you need hearing protection when using your suppressor you wasted money on your suppressor!

[Zak Smith]

FYI, mil-spec sound level testing specifies the mic position is 1 meter to either side, even with the muzzle. Also, the dB level is increased by 6 dB every time the distance is cut if half.

On a bolt rifle with essentially a sealed breech, very little sound comes through the action. On an AR-15, the gas pressure is vented directly into the bolt (6-10" from the shooter's ear), and this impulse is not damped by the suppressor.

If we figure a 16" AR-15 has about 24" from the shooter's ear to the muzzle (16" plus approx 8"), that would be about 4 dB louder than it would be 1 meter away from the muzzle. 2*10*log (39/24)

[jimmym40a2]

I was amazed how loud it is when you move the meter to the right of the ear instead of left on an AR.

Here I was metering some cans the other day.

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af311/jimmym40a3/IMG_0417.jpg

[Ranger]

I was amazed how loud it is when you move the meter to the right of the ear instead of left on an AR.

Here I was metering some cans the other day.

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af311/jimmym40a3/IMG_0417.jpg

Sorry, I'm calling B.S. on this one. This is quite obviously your home defense turret system and the microphones are to record the screams of those you bear down upon.

Joking aside, that's quite an investment into research you have going on there!

[Great-Kazoo]

Alan's shop (Machinegun Tours) is in Denver.

Denver Bullet has also done transfers, but I don't think they are a retail dealer.

There are about to be a few more retail NFA dealers in northern Colorado.

I can't imagine where:) once i'm back on 2 legs, i'm going the build your own route.
American Ingenuity started in small shops and garages, that is where it will once again rise from the ashes. As it has been doing slowly but Shirley for a few years now, thanks to the 94 AWB.

[Seamonkey]

Who is a reputable class 3 SOT dealer in town (I'm Southwest Denver) that would be a good shop to deal with for this? I'm not really too concerned with cost, it's just been such a headache to get it done but I'm now motivated to do so!

Thanks!

5280 Armory - http://www.ak-47man.com/home.html

They carry YHM but didn't have the model I wanted in stock but have placed an order. Now we are just waiting on a production run so once they get some in I'll get mine. No transfer fee

If they don't carry that manufacture then it's $75 transfer fee

They are usually pretty busy so you may have to wait to talk to one of them but when you do they have great customer service (IMO)

[huntinggamo]

I was amazed how loud it is when you move the meter to the right of the ear instead of left on an AR.

Here I was metering some cans the other day.

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af311/jimmym40a3/IMG_0417.jpg

i recognize that bench, hey i recognize that range...lol.
so i would like to see some of your results???

[bellavite1]

Hearing loss?
As a married man it sounds quite appealing[Coffee]!

[hatidua]

2. Is it quiet enough to shoot w/o ear protection?

For my ears? -no. But there are manly types out there that can shoot a .50bmg without ear protection so it's a bit of a judgement call. My hearing is something I take care of.

[MattR]

I think its funny people arguing with the suppressor manufacturer, because they know more than Zak, lol. I have a couple cans and the 308 subsonic out of a bolt gun is almost movie quiet (Zak's can) but what really surprised me is that it doesn't matter if the bullet is 1fps supersonic or 2000fps over its too loud without plugs. The AR you can shoot a couple without plugs but the ears start ringing pretty quick. The 22 is really the only one that doesn't seem to ever make my ears ring.

[hatidua]

I think its funny people arguing with the suppressor manufacturer, because they know more than Zak, lol.

I think in many instances it's a case of people having spent the considerable time & money necessary in acquiring a centerfire rifle suppressor and thereafter being unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that in spite of the expense it's still a fairly loud device they are shooting.

Were I to have the ability to turn back the clock, I'd have stopped my NFA stamp collecting after my first two rimfire cans.

[tmckay2]

I think in many instances it's a case of people having spent the considerable time & money necessary in acquiring a centerfire rifle suppressor and thereafter being unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that in spite of the expense it's still a fairly loud device they are shooting.

Were I to have the ability to turn back the clock, I'd have stopped my NFA stamp collecting after my first two rimfire cans.

actually i think its more personal opinion. you can cite actual noise levels, and people won't try to tell you its a lie. but we are talking about an opinion. does it seem loud to you? what seems loud to you might not sound loud to me, or to your neighbor, or to your friend, etc. its all relative. just because someone is a manufacturer doesn't mean their opinion on what is loud and what is not is more justified. what is SAFE and what is not is a different issue. fact is, many people in the military go through years of battle with no hearing protection and are fine years later. im not saying its recommended, but it happens. shooting now and again with a suppressor and no hearing protection isn't going to blow your ear drums out. i wouldn't do it daily, or even weekly, for 50 years, but short term it isn't going to hurt you. and frankly i can't see how people shoot with them without protection and find it painful or uncomfortable. maybe i listened to music louder as a child i don't know, but i don't think its bad at all. the only time ive ever had it actually hurt was when i was spotting for a friend and my ear was right by the muzzle. last time ill do that.

i don't really know why people get their panties in such a bunch over issues like this.

[Zak Smith]

Fact: it doesn't have to "hurt" or "feel loud" to do hearing damage.

It probably doesn't seem loud to you because you already have a moderate level of hearing damage.

And actually, we were talking about safety, not "just, like, your opinion, man" - because I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith
I was referring to full power ammunition. 137 dB is not really hearing safe.
and you said

pretty much everyone that uses suppressors consistently shoots them without hearing protection. thats kind of the point. its not that loud.

You don't have to believe me because I'm a silencer manufacturer. You should believe me because I'm right and even the most cursory research into sound levels and hearing damage done on the internet in 5 minutes or less (more if you read slow) will prove it. Everyone in this thread disagrees with you because you're totally off base. If you were giving your advice in a professional capacity, you could be successfully sued later for contributing to others' hearing loss.

[DeusExMachina]

Zak is my new favorite person. [Tooth]

[kilovictor]

can't wait for my YHM QD titanium Phantom to clear the all-powerful higher! WHOOHOOO!

Zak are you guys ever going to do quick detach suppressors? I checked out your offerings a while back and couldn't find that option?

[tmckay2]

lol, quite the professional i see.

YOU may be talking about safe, i was talking about being able to shoot without hearing protection without pain. it is not loud enough to cause pain. as i said, yes over time it can cause hearing damage. so can loud trucks at lumber yards, construction jobs, and nagging wives. most people will shoot their rifles with suppressors without hearing protection from time to time. i never said they go out daily and purposefully try to blow their ear drums out. but i can't think of one person with a suppressor that i know that hasn't shot it without hearing protection once in a while.

now kindly take your panties, unwad them, and recognize that your precious pride has no reason to be hurt in this discussion. i wasn't even fully disagreeing with you. i just have a different opinion from what i have observed on what level of damage they cause and the level of "pain". i never challenged your assertion that they CAN cause damage.


Fact: it doesn't have to "hurt" or "feel loud" to do hearing damage.

It probably doesn't seem loud to you because you already have a moderate level of hearing damage.

And actually, we were talking about safety, not "just, like, your opinion, man" - because I said

and you said

You don't have to believe me because I'm a silencer manufacturer. You should believe me because I'm right and even the most cursory research into sound levels and hearing damage done on the internet in 5 minutes or less (more if you read slow) will prove it. Everyone in this thread disagrees with you because you're totally off base. If you were giving your advice in a professional capacity, you could be successfully sued later for contributing to others' hearing loss.

[Zak Smith]

kilovector,

Earlier this year we introduced the "BA" (brake attach) versions of the 30P-1 and 338P-1. We haven't found a "quick attach" mount that meets our standards for accuracy and repeatability (we make precision/LR cans primarily after all) -- the BA does -- so we went with that direction for the users that need a muzzle device when the can comes off. No mount is really "QD" once you get it to 800 degrees unless you have some welding gloves handy.