DOW and State Parks combined?

[Mtn.man]

My cuz just brought to my attention that Hick the Dick looper wants to combine both of these thus stealing $$ form the DOW to fund the state parks who already suck up a ton of money that goes to ???

And in the process closing some state parks.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17394230

[trlcavscout]

He is just trying to fix the budget and make Colorado a better and safer place to live right? It must be for the good, he was elected by the majority of the people.

[Mazin]

huh

[ghettodub]

So they want to turn the potentially closed parks in to hunting areas, which isn't bad, is it? Doesn't that reduce the amount that the parks "steal" from the DOW, and could increase revenue for the DOW via more hunting licenses?

Parks unfortunately, along with a lot of other shit, is going to have to close or be trimmed because our budget is f**ked, and the money has to come from somewhere.

Until I see details and the logistics, I don't see how it's a bad thing, and would love to hear why it's a bad thing. Other than certain people just thinking it's bad because a dem is proposing it...

Playing a bit of the devil's advocate here...

[TS12000]

Nothing to do with the parks but I like this guy,


"I don't know that going 2 percent deeper into their (state workers) pockets is the right place to look," Steadman said.

But I bet I know where he would like to see that money come from, everyone else's pockets

[Mtn.man]

The DOW is the only department in our state that does not use tax money to operate. It is fully funded by fees paid by hunting and fishing licenses. The two departments have completely seperate functions, purpose and intent. The parks are focused on preservation, while the DOW is in the business of conservation. These interests do not overlap, and on many issues they are in direct conflict with each other.
All of us who have an interest in Wildlife and in Hunting and Fishing need to get the word out.

[newracer]

Actually you can hunt in most state parks. 33 of the 42 to be exact.

[ronaldrwl]

I don't know the in and outs of how each department works but it sounds dubious. Some how we're going to lose hunting / shooting rights.

[ghettodub]

The DOW is the only department in our state that does not use tax money to operate. It is fully funded by fees paid by hunting and fishing licenses. The two departments have completely seperate functions, purpose and intent. The parks are focused on preservation, while the DOW is in the business of conservation. These interests do not overlap, and on many issues they are in direct conflict with each other.
All of us who have an interest in Wildlife and in Hunting and Fishing need to get the word out.

[Beer]

[Jmetz]

Actually you can hunt in most state parks. 33 of the 42 to be exact.

Its true. I take my boat chick hunting at Cherry Creek and Chatfield all the time.

[ronaldrwl]

Its true. I take my boat chick hunting at Cherry Creek and Chatfield all the time.

Hunting at Cherry Creek and Chatfield? What are you hunting?

[sniper7]

Hunting at Cherry Creek and Chatfield? What are you hunting?

Dude....you COMPLETELY missed it. He said he takes his BOAT out to hunt CHICKS as in women. Not baby chickens. [ROFL3]

[sniper7]

Unless you are going to let me hunt in the town of estes and in every state park you can duck yourself hickenlooper. Leave this shit alone.
wanna save some money? Fire yourself and all staff.

[Mtn.man]

He will take an agency that not in the red, and turn it into a bureacratic POS, non service and put it in the hole.

[OneGuy67]

I've heard rumor about him closing the Department of Revenue and moving their investigators (liquor, gaming, marijuana, etc.) to other departments. Right now, its just rumor.

[Mtn.man]

Definitions per Google.

A preservationist generally refers to one who wishes to preserve a historic structure from demolition or degradation. It generally refers to a particular historical behavior or belief system. Example areas are cultural, religious, architectural and environmental.

Persons who work to preserve ancient or endangered languages are also referred to as language preservationists.

It is sometimes used in the natural environmentalist field. While the natural environment conservationist movements do wish to preserve ecosystems and the natural environment, this movement is best described as conservation or environmentalism rather than preservation. Though in casual discussion these terms could get confused, it would be better to recognize their differences and correctly distinguish between a conservationists and preservationists in the field of environmentalism.

A key difference between the Preservationist and Conservationist environmentalist schools of thought is their view of the use of environmental resources. In summary, the Preservationist view is that the environment has an intrinsic value; that is, the environment has value solely in itself. Therefore the name "preservationist" is explaining the goal to preserve the environment in its past form, making as little change as possible.

Conservationists, however, view the environment with an instrumental value. While conservationists are to be considered "environmentally friendly", they do not have the same "let it be" view as preservationists do. Instead, they look at the environment for what it can do for people.

A key concept is that conservationists generally accept the notion of sustainable yield—that man can harvest some forest or animal products from a natural environment on a regular basis without compromising the long-health of the ecosystem. This theory was presented by forester Gifford Pinchot. Natural Environmental Preservationists usually oppose resource extraction.

[Irving]

I heard a rumor he was going to redistribute employees of the ATF into local drive-thru windows; and I couldn't be happier.

[Mazin]

I heard a rumor that he once caught a 50 bmg bullet in his ear just because his hands were full from saving 10,000 children....Uh wait, that was Chuck Norris.

[ronaldrwl]

Hey Mtn.man that was very informative. And helps to better understand where a conservationists or preservationist is coming from. Especially when you are spraying them with your garden hose.

[hollohas]

From the DOW...



DOW AND PARKS TO COMBINE JULY 1
DENVER -- The Colorado Division of Wildlife and Colorado State Parks would merge into a new agency under one board and one administration on July 1 under legislation that will soon be submitted to the General Assembly, Gov. John Hickenlooper told a joint meeting of the Colorado Wildlife Commission and the State Parks Board today.
Addressing the joint meeting in the Hunter Education building on the Division of Wildlife campus, the Governor said the merger is part of his overall effort to make state government more effective and efficient. He recalled that in the 1960s and early 1970s, Colorado's state parks and wildlife programs were once managed by a single agency.
"This will be a challenge for all of us," Hickenlooper told the Commission and Board. "What will make this successful is peoples' willingness to work together as we strive for effectiveness and ways to be more efficient. We will need to find common paths, to bring questions and concerns to surface and to deal with them ways that provide assurances to employees while helping us avoid making cuts that would be very painful."
The Governor said he envisions a single agency that would support the gamut of wildlife and outdoor recreation opportunities while also managing a suite of properties that offer everything from active recreation near population centers to hunting and fishing in less-developed areas.
"Our parks system provides an entry-level opportunity for our citizens to experience the outdoors," Hickenlooper said. "If we don't have that, we're putting long-term support for wildlife at risk."
Department of Natural Resources Executive Director Mike King said the bill the administration will soon introduce would combine the Wildlife Commission and Parks Board and create the new agency by July 1. Sen. Gail Schwartz, D-Snowmass Village, Sen. Mary Hodge, D-Brighton, Rep. Jerry Sonnenberg, R-Sterling and Rep. Cheri Gerou, R-Evergreen will sponsor legislation to authorize the consolidation.
A second bill that would make the necessary modifications to state statutes is anticipated to be introduced in January 2012. Teams of employees from the two agencies would be asked to help develop the new organizational structure, he said.
"We've seen efforts before where outside consultants came in to tell us what the structure should look like," King said. "We've already got the talent we need to do this in these two agencies. They know what values need to be preserved. We're going to bring them together and ask them to chart the future."
Several other Western states operate combined parks and wildlife agencies, including Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas and Texas. Washington and Oregon are also currently in the process of combining their wildlife and parks programs. King said that 39 state parks offer fishing while 32 offer hunting opportunities and that wildlife revenues can be directed to parks for expenditures that primarily benefit wildlife habitat, wildlife viewing or other wildlife-related pursuits.
Both the Wildlife Commission and the Parks Board said they applauded the Governor's decision to address the situation facing State Parks and pledged to work to build the new agency.
"During the recovery of economy nationwide, no issue is more challenging than the problems facing state local government," said Parks Board member Bill Kane. "We stand ready and willing to do what can to make a successful endeavor."
Earlier in the meeting, Division of Wildlife Director Tom Remington briefed the Wildlife Commissioners on the 2010 harvest statistics. Hunters harvested a total of 48,018 elk, up slightly from 2009. Last year, cow elk represented 54 percent of the harvest. About half of the bulls harvested were taken by hunters who bought over-the-counter licenses, rather than applying through the limited license draw.
"We continue to harvest more elk in Colorado every year than most other states have," Remington said. In 2010, hunters harvested 12,301, topping the 12,000 mark for the first time. Remington said the harvest showed the Division's efforts to work with private landowners to increase hunting opportunity is paying off.
Deer harvest in 2010 was also up slightly. Hunters took a total of 34,768 deer in 2010. About half of the hunters during rifle seasons filled their tag, showing that Colorado continues to offer a tremendous opportunity for hunting quality mule deer, Remington said. He added that the deer population appears to be rebounding well from the harsh winter of 2007 and 2008.
In other action, Wildlife Commissioners reviewed draft language for a new regulation prohibiting the hunting, harassment or take of black bears in their dens and a regulation eliminating the $5 permit for hunting Greater Prairie chicken, though a small game license would still be required. Both regulations could be finalized at the May Commission meeting in Salida.
Commissioners also approved a surface use agreement for natural gas development at the James Mark Jones State Wildlife Area in South Park and denied a citizen rulemaking petition requesting that the Commission revise regulations pertaining to sponsorship requirements for wildlife rehabilitators.
During the afternoon session, Commissioners received a presentation on the hydrology of the Colorado River and the Wildlife Commission's role in reviewing water development plans proposed by Denver Water and the Northern Colorado Water Conservancy District.
Wildlife Commissioners also unanimously reelected Chairman Tim Glenn, Vice Chairman Robert Streeter and Secretary Mark Smith to serve for the next year.
On Friday, the Wildlife Commission meets with the boards of the Colorado Cattlemen's Association and the Colorado Farm Bureau in the Bighorn Room at the Colorado Division of Wildlife's headquarters. The joint meeting, held annually, is scheduled to run from 9 a.m. to 12 p.m.
The Wildlife Commission meets monthly and travels to communities around the state to facilitate public participation in its processes. In 2011, the Commission will meet in Meeker, Salida, Grand Junction, Montrose, Alamosa, Steamboat Springs, Pueblo, Yuma, and Fort Collins. The first three meetings of 2011 have been held in Denver.
The Colorado Wildlife Commission is an 11-member board appointed by the governor. The Wildlife Commission sets Division of Wildlife regulations and policies for hunting, fishing, watchable wildlife, nongame, threatened and endangered species. The Commission also oversees Division of Wildlife land purchases and property regulations.

[Mtn.man]

Yeah I got the info from DOW this afternoon.

[claimbuster]

Guess where some our license and fee money is going to go! [Rant1]

[mx'r]

And just when I thought that the CODOW couldnt get any worse... Seems to be right on track with Libtard thinking. So, what happens to all the Casino money that Parks & Rec get now?

[BigDee]

Hunting license fee's, fishing license fee's, boat and off road vehicle registration fund the State Parks. State Parks is 100% self sufficient and uses absolutely 0 tax payer money.

So why would you combine the two? Easy you follow the California (liberal) model. Combine the two and first start siphoning funds from State Parks to fund other pet projects. Once the State parks start to go dry you raise fee's for licensing, you turn off road vehicles and boats over the the DMV and start charging property tax on those.

Before you know it you're paying $250 a year to register your aluminimum bass boat that is only going to be allowed in state parks that are aproved for sporting purposes.

This state is in an awfully big hurry to become California and noone seems to realize it. The things happening here could read like a damn text book based on the history of California.

[ldmaster]

One of the reasons DOW went independent was to keep autonomy and prove that it's function COULD be supported solely by fees. Parks didn't give a damn because we were flush with cash and they were expanding like crazy, the way they saw it back then was that DOW was a DRAIN on their funding.

Now that DOW has done it's job of careful growth and conservation, the quislings at Parks want to go rape them - they've run out of other places to exercise their incessant need for money.

State parks passes are ridiculously low when compared to hunting fees. Parks has been run like a personal fiefdom of the far left for a long time - DOW and Parks will not mix well.

I think this is a precursor move, if the State can get the finances of DOW (already Enterprise qualified) and Parks comingled, then Parks may benefit from "enterprise" status. Essentially, if a state function gets less than 10 percent (think that's the number) from the State, then it's exempt from the Tabor restrictions and CAN sell revenue bonds and raise money outside of the legislative function of budget. DOW has already gotten it's designation, so TABOR doesn't apply to them. I'm guessing that DOW's surplus and combination with Parks MIGHT put the combined agency into enterprise status... politics man, everything is politics...

But it's absolutely UNTRUE that Parks gets all of it's funding from fees revenue. Here's a 2007 study showing where the money comes from, and the numbers have changed - lower visitor counts in the last two years.

http://cospl.coalliance.org/fez/eserv/co:7306/nr42f4920072internet.pdf

[buffalobo]

DOW being fully funded by fees means it does not draw/drain state budget. Leave it the hell alone. If Chickenpooper wants Parks to be revenue neutral or generate its own revenue then make it so. Don't screw up what DOW has accomplished. This has to be the most stupid thing that moron has suggested yet. He will set it up that the preservationists end up with control and hunters/fisherman will take the hit. The average citizen does not have a clue to the difference between conservation and preservation and will either support or ignore it.

BTW - Who gives a rats ass what other states have done.

[Byte Stryke]

BTW - Who gives a rats ass what other states have done.

I care, for purely educational reasons if nothing else.

"Hey, they did this and it didn't work. let's not repeat their fuckup!"


But, Lickmypooper doesn't learn from his own mistakes, Much less the mistakes of others.
But then I Feel his intentions are NOT to make a self sufficient parks system, but instead tap another revenue base that he can steal from.

[buffalobo]

What the other states have done/are doing was presented in the article to make it appear that Colorado might not be doing it right or behind the times, etc. Not to educate the public on what other states may be doing well.


Several other Western states operate combined parks and wildlife agencies, including Montana, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas and Texas. Washington and Oregon are also currently in the process of combining their wildlife and parks programs.

With the current economic issues we face, I appreciate that DOW funds itself and while I don't know details of surrounding states, I doubt thier DOW agencies are self funded.

[rellik74]

State parks uses about 3millon dollars in state taxes but they are not allowed enough fee increases to make 3 millon.

Most state employees have not gotten a raise in 3 years and now they are taking 2.5% from each employee for PERA and this is equal to a 2.5% pay cut. Last year most state employees took 8 furlough days.

Now before you think we are geting RICH I had a 5 year plan to get up to my pay up to where I was geting payed in the private sector. That was 10 years ago and before I beacame a stste employee I made 55k and now its still 42K so I hope my PERA retirement makes up for this in my golden years.

And what relly pissess me off is they stared a pay for performance program but the Joint budget committe will not FUND the program! I dont know how much longer I can work for the people of colorado

[theGinsue]

But then I Feel his intentions are NOT to make a self sufficient parks system, but instead tap another revenue base that he can steal from.


BINGO.

He's going to take a great working program and reduce it to the same in-the-red situation the State Parks are in then they'll both be struggling and the wildlife and hunters/anglers of CO will certainly lose.

[sniper7]

BINGO.

He's going to take a great working program and reduce it to the same in-the-red situation the State Parks are in then they'll both be struggling and the wildlife and hunters/anglers of CO will certainly lose.


but we will pay more for licenses and habitat stamps etc. glad I bought my lifetime stamp...of course it will be invalidated soon because I will need a lifetime state habitat stamp for parks and recs and CDOW now...

it is a nice indirect attack on outdoorsman, straight to their pocketbooks.

[BPTactical]

DOW is not the only State entity that is self funded/sufficient. CDOT is as well, it is funded by fuel taxes and is not included in the general fund.
As far as state employee wages- we have been "frozen" in salaries for the last 3 years. Promotions that used to gain the employee 15% salary increases have been reduced to 10%Typically we could expect an average of 2% annually in "cost of living" salary increases.
Last year we had to "contribute" an additional 2.5% of our salary towards our PERA plus incur the eight Furlough days already mentioned. This year we are paying an additional 2% to our PERA. So in essence the employees are paying the entire contribution to PERA retirement. This equates to a 4.5% cut in pay for all state employees.
We have not had to incur Furlough days for the FY11 budget but I would not be the least surprised to see them in the FY12 budget.
As far as Dickenpooper FUBAR'ing the state services ala California I would not be surprised at all.
Look at how badly he F'd up Denver.

If I am not mistaken does not state Parks receive lottery dollars as well?

[OneGuy67]

Ahh, but BPTactical and Rellik74, these people here do not want to hear the truth about us state employees and how close we are to losing our homes with all the pay deductions and furloughs. They want to believe we have a great nest egg in PERA and are making more money than the private sector. They want to believe we are lazy and rolling in money.

I'm personally paying over twice what my Social Security payment would have been if I was in private sector, towards my retirement and the state is paying the same as SSI employer payments. Our health insurance sucks balls and has high premiums for crappy benefits.

For those who would jump on the wagon and say they are unemployed or underemployed and would change places with any one of us, yes that is true. I am grateful for the job I have and having steady income coming in, but having said that, I cannot keep working 70-80 hour weeks (we don't get overtime pay) for 2006 wages and 2011 costs.

[theGinsue]

And just when I thought that the CODOW couldnt get any worse... Seems to be right on track with Libtard thinking. So, what happens to all the Casino money that Parks & Rec get now?
Just like with so many other worthwhile programs/projects. I'm sure they're still getting the Casino money, but because they are, the libtards decide to re-appropriate other funds that the Parks were supposed to get over to BS projects/programs. Now, the Parks are worse off than BEFORE the Casino money.

I agree that we have a serious problem with the state funds and entities such as CDOT which can not self generate funds need to be taken care of if they are essential (such as CDOT), but robbing Peter to pay Paul, which is what they are doing in cobining the Parks and DOW is NOT the answer. Neither is harming those state employees who they employ.

The State needs to take a long hard look and determine what programs are essential and fund those, then look at what CAN be cut or reduced. For the State Parks, reduce the personnel footprint. Places like Eleven Mile are the start of good examples. Have pay stations in various locations, close the centers with the offices and that require stationed personnel, and have a small cadre of people who will go around and check the pay stations and check out the status of things around the Park. No need to close the parks but replace the person at the gate with a pay station. Eliminate the contractors patrolling the areas. Place large dumpsters at the entrances/exits and require folks to clean up their own garbage from the sites and fine those who don't.

In my youth I remember being able to go camping at state campgrounds and go fishing in state parks and there weren't paid camp nazi's or manned gates/pay stations. There were unmanned paystations. The Parks are no better now than they were then but now they cost the taxpayers significantly more for upkeep.

And, while we're at it, lets reduce the income for the state officials. NOT your normal run-of-the-mill employees, just those "officials" whose incomes are far above the normal employees. These people are supposed to be in positions of public service just like the guy running the snow plow or patrolling the highways/streets lookig for bad guys. So then, why should these "officials" continue to enjoy nice incomes while the rest of the state employees have to sacrifice?

Let's also take a tougher line on illegal immigrants. They cost us in increased law enforcement, housing, and education to start with. If we refused them all but essential services until we could deport them we could save even more money.

Just how I feel.

[theGinsue]

Hunting license fee's, fishing license fee's & habitat stamps fund the DOW (boat and off road vehicle registration fund the State Parks). DOW is 100% self sufficient and uses absolutely 0 tax payer money.


Fixed it for you.

[rellik74]

Lottery dollars can be used to build things and purchase land. It can not be used for everyday operation cost or wages.

[BigDee]

Fixed it for you.

Thank you for the correction. I had the two mixed up.

[sniper7]

Ahh, but BPTactical and Rellik74, these people here do not want to hear the truth about us state employees and how close we are to losing our homes with all the pay deductions and furloughs. They want to believe we have a great nest egg in PERA and are making more money than the private sector. They want to believe we are lazy and rolling in money.

I'm personally paying over twice what my Social Security payment would have been if I was in private sector, towards my retirement and the state is paying the same as SSI employer payments. Our health insurance sucks balls and has high premiums for crappy benefits.

For those who would jump on the wagon and say they are unemployed or underemployed and would change places with any one of us, yes that is true. I am grateful for the job I have and having steady income coming in, but having said that, I cannot keep working 70-80 hour weeks (we don't get overtime pay) for 2006 wages and 2011 costs.


you are up to par with the private sector. I know this for fact. if you are paying a bit more than you would for social security, you should feel good that you will get a nice retirement. social security is a sinking ship. PERA does a very good job and although they struggled in the downturn, they are coming back strong. My dad and mom both retired as teachers in the last couple years. I can tell you I would much rather be making less money and getting a fully funded retirement plus health care benefits for the rest of my life than the bullshit social security and medicare out there now.

Personally I want social security to be optional. I would instantly opt out.

I talked with my wife about this as well as she is a teacher and involved in PERA. she has better benefits at a lower cost than what I am offered in the private sector, she pays 4% less into PERA account than I put in my 401K and will receive a much better % of her income when retirement comes around.

I know they are talking now about more furlough days or pay cuts, at least for the teachers, but I am sure the effects will be seen across the board of all state/federal employees. The problem is they aren't giving furlough days to the people that really need them...the TSA. they should all take a permanent vacation IMO. federal funded child molesters is a better title. CMA (child molesters administration). I watched them a few weeks back have a definitely gay male TSA agent do a full groping pat down of a roughly 16 year old boy. made me sick.

[OneGuy67]

you are up to par with the private sector. I know this for fact. if you are paying a bit more than you would for social security, you should feel good that you will get a nice retirement. social security is a sinking ship. PERA does a very good job and although they struggled in the downturn, they are coming back strong. My dad and mom both retired as teachers in the last couple years. I can tell you I would much rather be making less money and getting a fully funded retirement plus health care benefits for the rest of my life than the bullshit social security and medicare out there now.

Personally I want social security to be optional. I would instantly opt out.

I talked with my wife about this as well as she is a teacher and involved in PERA. she has better benefits at a lower cost than what I am offered in the private sector, she pays 4% less into PERA account than I put in my 401K and will receive a much better % of her income when retirement comes around.

I know they are talking now about more furlough days or pay cuts, at least for the teachers, but I am sure the effects will be seen across the board of all state/federal employees. The problem is they aren't giving furlough days to the people that really need them...the TSA. they should all take a permanent vacation IMO. federal funded child molesters is a better title. CMA (child molesters administration). I watched them a few weeks back have a definitely gay male TSA agent do a full groping pat down of a roughly 16 year old boy. made me sick.

State employees only make up 15% of the people in PERA, but are the ones being asked to provide more funds to keep that sinking ship upright. There is billions in unfunded liabilities, because the board believes they are going to make 8% on their investments every year. Ain't gonna happen.

Sounds like your wife has a better retirement than the state employees. Given that 85% of PERA is school districts and other limited districts, they need to pony up and not have the state employees shoulder the burden. We state employees do not get health care after retirement. That is on our own dime.

The state pays not only its limited share that I get, but also pays AED and SAED, which are bailouts in effect to PERA. I don't know if your wife's employer pays those as well, but that is an extra couple of hundred dollars a month that is only a benefit to PERA, not me. My account does not see that money.

I pay 12.5% right now into PERA and the guv wants me to pay an additonal 2%, for a total of 14.5%. That is a lot off the top, that I can't opt out of or decide I don't want to pay. Social Security is 6.5% at the maximum rate. Yes, the retirement will be better, but frankly, it damn well better be, given I'm paying so much into it.

TSA is a federal agency and isn't part of PERA. Whether they furlough or not, I don't really care, given I'm worried about how much money I have at the end of each month to pay the bills and stay afloat. That is at the state level.