Military Action Against Libya

[Ranger]

Just what we need, to get involved in ANOTHER middle eastern war:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/19/france-takes-action-libya/

Justified or not, we're getting spread pretty thin in a very dangerous area of the world.

[StagLefty]

That's why I said in the other thread let Britain and France take this one. Why are we considering spreading ourselves so thin ? I know there's a lot of reasons to protect our interests but we can't take on more at this time. We have enough with Iraq and Afghan plus our problems right here.

[TFOGGER]

Funny how nobody was concerned with Qadaffi when he was just a quiet little dictator, but now that there's an uprising in Libya, they're all worried about his actions against what we would call "insurgents". He is a total waste of oxygen, but why is the rest of the world suddenly so concerned with his domestic policies? If only the cruise missiles we chucked in there when Clinton was trying to divert attention from his illicit blowjob had found their targets...

[clublights]

This no fly zone shouldn't eat up to many resources anyways.

F-22's to handle the Air to Air ( they are not being used in Afghanistan anyways and this is EXACTLY what they were built for)

A carrier off the coast to handle electronic warfare ( EA-6's or EA-18G's if those have hit the fleet yet) with F-18's to handle any Air to Ground strikes needed.

Isn't there a Carrier in the Med already ? we used to ALWAYS have one and sometimes 2 carriers in the Med at all times.

[Mick-Boy]

why is the rest of the world suddenly so concerned with his domestic policies?

Libya is a major supplier of oil and natural gas to Europe. They provide(d) something on the order of 20% of the oil imported by Ireland, Austria and Italy.


Isn't there a Carrier in the Med already ? we used to ALWAYS have one and sometimes 2 carriers in the Med at all times.The USS Enterprise is in the Red Sea and still 3-4 days out from the coast of Libya last I read. Right now the USS Kearsarge is off the coast with a compliment of USMC harriers (YUT!). The fact of the matter is that the Med hasn't been the focus for a few years now. Most of our Naval assets have been sitting in the Gulf of Aden/Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf.

[Mtn.man]

With all our military spread around the globe we are leaving the chicken coop wide open.

[clublights]

The USS Enterprise is in the Red Sea and still 3-4 days out from the coast of Libya last I read. Right now the USS Kearsarge is off the coast with a compliment of USMC harriers (YUT!). The fact of the matter is that the Med hasn't been the focus for a few years now. Most of our Naval assets have been sitting in the Gulf of Aden/Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf.

Big E could probably handle it all herself.. but combat prove the F-22's ( and show that 150 million buck price tag was worth it ) and back them up with F-16's outta Aviano .

[Elhuero]

democratic presidents love the tomahawk missile.

they can launch a few and make it look like they're doing something when really they're not.

only reason U.S. missiles flew is big O didn't want to be outdone by sarkozy.

[275RLTW]

Do you think those missles actually flew without someone on the ground there to identify and paint (mark with laser designator) the targets?

[Ranger]

Oh I'm sure there are SF on the ground lasing the target. I'm all for killing the SOB but we have other messes to clean up first. Mom always said I had to eat my lima beans before I had dessert!

[clublights]

Do you think those missles actually flew without someone on the ground there to identify and paint (mark with laser designator) the targets?

yes cuz tomahawks are all GPS/INS

[jerrymrc]

If all we do is throw a few tomahawks that were nearing there "Best by" date then cheaper to throw them at a shithole. It kinda looks like Oprah and Mary Ann declaring this there black friday sale and wanting all the world to watch now that they found a pair at the dollar store. [LOL]

[ChunkyMonkey]

Do you think those missles actually flew without someone on the ground there to identify and paint (mark with laser designator) the targets?

Target input on Tomahawk are GPS coordinates. The block IV or newer even has search and destroy submunition.

Eyes on the ground is being replaced by raptors now a days too. Even JDAM and JSOW are mostly deployed by GPS coordinate in the past decade.

Good stuffs!

[Tweety Bird]

Aw, no worries about spreading too thin. COOTUS is going to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan real soon, isn't he?

(he promised. . .)

[275RLTW]

Target input on Tomahawk are GPS coordinates. The block IV or newer even has search and destroy submunition.

Eyes on the ground is being replaced by raptors now a days too. Even JDAM and JSOW are mostly deployed by GPS coordinate in the past decade.

Good stuffs!

The GPS in them aren't that accureate (still +/- 60 ft). Still need PRF code from SOFLAM to be precise. Also need eyes on to confirm targets and clear of civilians. Drones can't do that yet....

[BigDee]

There's no better way to train than to run a real life mission.

The US has lost a lot of support from the EU over the last decade. Most European nations dislike the US and we are viewed around the world as a bully. Now the EU has a threat against it's oil resources and is calling it an outcry against humanity. We are supporting the EU because we need to rebuild relationships and drop bombs in the name of something greater than. "He wanted to kill my dad."

I get the cause.. but what regime will take over? Is the EU going to go into Libya and host a fair and honest election? Will the Arab league host a real election or will this just be one more mission that will result in a hijacking by the Islamic brotherhood that will build another nation to support radical Islam?

I get they why but I do not get the what. What happens next??

As far as spreading to thin.. This country has so many GTA defense systems that an air threat will be disabled before it enters our shores. A ground invasion can't occur because there are 70 million firearm owners in this country; of that 70 mill roughly 10+% are very well trained. Many people go to sleep every night in this country praying for a SHTF situation to occur and the enemy knows that.

Our next enemy will not invade our nation with troops or bombs. Our enemy will use the technology we have against us by gaining control of the computer systems we have implemented to keep us safe and use those systems against us.

[SNAFU]

Should have gotten back when we tried the first time,,and yes we were there.
Funny how history repeats itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya

[Marlin]

Should have gotten back when we tried the first time,,and yes we were there.
Funny how history repeats itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya



Ahhhhhhh, memories. I was at Ft. Campbell at the time. We just happened to be the Battlion on DRF-1 status. So, at the morning formation, The plans for the day got changed up a bit. We got to wear our going to war clothes for the day. Not sure how far up the chain that one came from. But we did it..

[funkfool]

Some dumbass forgot to address one of the cruise missles to the home of the Lockerbie Bomber - Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi...
His corpse is worth a Tomahawk... why do they forget these critical items when one could just 'accidently' have taken him out...

[hollohas]

Interesting Op Ed.

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/03/25/us-intervention-libya-and-specter-black-hawk-down



U.S. Intervention in Libya and the Specter of “Black Hawk Down” (http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/03/25/us-intervention-libya-and-specter-black-hawk-down)


For every minute that Muammar Qaddafi remains in power...
For every hour that ticks by during America's military operations in Libya...
During every sortie...
An horrific set of images haunts official Washington.
They are the pictures of Somali rebels dragging the corpses of U.S. soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu on October 3, 1993.
Certainly the specter of Vietnam agonizes Washington as the benchmark for military conflicts gone horribly wrong. Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution in August, 1964 in response to attacks on U.S. vessels. But over time, the resolution proved to be the touchstone of mission creep. It constructed a gateway for the U.S. to get bogged down in an unwinnable conflict which cost tens of thousands of lives. That explains why Vietnam torments policymakers today every time U.S. forces are involved overseas.
But it was that harrowing day in downtown Mogadishu nearly 18 years ago that bedevils lawmakers, generals and administration-types even more now than Vietnam.
Which is precisely why everyone is wringing their hands about whether or not the U.S. is at "war" with Libya. It's why House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) fired off a letter to President Obama Wednesday afternoon, not ten minutes after Air Force One returned from a trip to South America and Latin America. The speaker demanded answers as to the "objectives of this mission, what our national security interests are, and how it fits into our overarching policy for the Middle East (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/middle-east.htm#r_src=ramp)?"
It's why some lawmakers, ranging from liberal Democrats to conservative Republicans, have criticized the president for failing to adequately consult with Congress before committing U.S. forces to this operation in Libya.
"I can only conclude that your order to the United States Armed Forces to attack the nation of Libya on March 19, 2011 is in direct violation of the War Powers Resolution and constitutes a usurpation of Constitutional powers clearly and solely vested in the United States Congress and is accordingly unlawful and unconstitutional," wrote Rep. Tom McClintock (R-CA) in a unilateral missive to Mr. Obama.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++
October 3, 1993 will forever be remembered as the day conventional warfare fundamentally changed. It ushered in a new era of asymmetric warfare, a little less than eight years before 9-11. And with the advent of CNN and the ability to telecast news around the world 24/7, that day also forever altered the lens through which war is viewed.

On October 3, 1993, U.S. Delta Force troops and Army Rangers attempted to capture henchmen associated with Somali warlord Mohamed Farrah Aidid. By that point, U.S. troops had been involved in Somalia for nearly a year. Much of the country was starving, with gangs and warlords like Aidid hording the supplies.
In December, 1992, President George H.W. Bush was in the waning days of his term, having lost the previous month to Bill Clinton. But under the auspices of United Nations (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/united-nations.htm#r_src=ramp) Resolution 794, the U.S. joined international forces "to use all necessary means to establish as soon as possible a secure environment for humanitarian relief in Somalia."
U.S. troops entered Somalia on December 8, 1992 to help secure the Mogadishu airport so humanitarian relief flights and could deliver supplies to the ravaged country. In conjunction with the War Powers Resolution, President Bush met with a number of key members of Congress on December 10 to brief them on the Somalia mission. Mr. Bush indicated that American forces would only remain long enough to secure the country for relief efforts. U.S. troops would then turn over peacekeeping operations to the United Nations.
The 1973 War Powers Resolution asks the president to notify Congress within two days of committing troops abroad. Unless Congress declares war, the War Powers Resolution limits the deployment of forces to two months, followed by a 30 day withdrawal period.
But U.S. troops remained in Somalia. Into January when Clinton assumed office. And then into the late spring of 1993 as hostilities intensified and U.N. peacekeepers were slaughtered.
In June and July, 1993, President Clinton detailed to Congress the actions of a "U.S. Quick Reaction Force" that he dispatched in an effort to bolster the U.N.
"Aidid's forces were responsible for the worst attack on U.N. peacekeepers in three decades. We could not let it go unpunished," said Clinton.
Over this timeframe, both the House and Senate approved different resolutions that could better clarify America's role in Somalia. But neither body could come to a unified agreement as to what the U.S. should be doing.
So troops remained. And the mission creeped.
Former Rep. Benjamin Gilman (R-NY), then the top Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, declared that August 4 could be viewed as the day the War Powers Resolution died. Gilman noted that fighting heated up in early June 1993 and two months later, U.S. troops didn't have a clear mandate to stay since Congress had not declared war. Finally in September, both the House and Senate approved a measure that mandated President Clinton report to Congress by October 15 what the mission was in Somalia. Lawmakers also required the president to ask for Congressional approval for the military operation by mid-November.
And then came October 3, an iconic day in the history of U.S. military commitments overseas. It's a day which ultimately revealed the Constitutional breach between the legislative and executive branches over who is responsible for sending troops abroad.
It is said you can't be "a little bit pregnant." But October 3, 1993 revealed that a country could be "a little bit at war."
On that fated day in Mogadishu, Aidid's loyalists pinned down American forces for 16 hours in a brutal firefight. An rocket propelled grenade brought down a U.S. Black Hawk helicopter with the callsign Super 6-1. 18 American service members were killed. Nearly 80 soldiers were hurt. Helicopter Pilot Michael Durant was captured and held hostage for two weeks. And then Aideed's militias dragged the corpses of American service members through the labyrinthine Mogadishu streets. TV cameras captured the images and beamed them live around the globe on CNN.
"How could this happen?" President Clinton is reported to have said once he saw the images, according to Mark Bowden, author of "Black Hawk Down."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
The turning point for the United States in the "Black Hawk Down" incident centers on the ability of non-state actors to unleash non-linear warfare methods in order to bring the world's only Superpower to its knees. The episode ignited a political firestorm in Washington as lawmakers crowed about how the administration never justified the mission. Meantime, Capitol Hill bore just as much of the blame for never fully intervening or halting the funding of U.S. operations in Somalia.
And then there was the media impact. The televised images of a mob cavorting through the dusty streets with the bodies of U.S. service members suddenly made the issue real back home. That spurred lawmakers and the public to ask what the U.S. was doing there.
The late-Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV), then chairman of the Appropriations Committee (which controls the federal purse strings), declared it was time for Congress to end what he termed "cops-and-robbers operations." Former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-TX) exclaimed that the U.S. shouldn't risk troops when the objective is murky.
"Can we justify more funerals of young Americans based on a policy we cannot define?" asked Gramm at the time.
Army Sgt. Randy Shughart was one of the Americans killed that day in Mogadishu. Later that year, Shughart's father Herbert refused to shake President Clinton's hand when the Pentagon posthumously awarded his son the Medal of Honor.
"The blame for my son's death rests with the White House and with you. You are not fit to command," Shughart snarled at the president during the ceremony.
This all contributed to a growing narrative about President Clinton. He won election with less than half of the popular vote. He didn't serve in Vietnam and some viewed him as a draft dodger. Chastened from his experiences with Somalia, many believe the Somalia experience made Clinton timorous when he failed to take action to curb the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.
In the fall of 1993, Congress voted to cut off funding for the Somalia operation. It was the first time Congress had nipped money for U.S. military action abroad since it voted to defund the Vietnam war in 1973.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Nearly 18 years later, missteps surrounding the U.S. mission in Somalia serve as the hallmark of a military operation gone awry and why Congress is sweating bullets right now over Libya.
Earlier this week, one senior aide said that lawmakers were skittish. But everyone would be okay, so long as there were no "Scott O'Grady situations." That's a reference to Scott O'Grady. He was an American pilot who was shot down by the Serbs and survived in the wild for about a week in 1995 while helping NATO enforce a no-fly zone over Bosnia.
That same night, a U.S. fighter crashed in Libya. Both crew members survived.
"That's an example of how things can go south really fast," muttered another senior Congressional aide. "Which is why you want Congressional authorization. That way everyone has skin in the game."
Congress is still engaged in a protracted fight over spending bills for the current fiscal year. If expenditures for the Libya operation exceed $1 billion, it's believed that the White House would have to ask Congress for a supplemental spending bill. In other words, as Democrats and Republicans scrap over current spending cuts, imagine how sordid the battle could become if Congress is asked to approve extra money amid the current debate.
"Before we spend any money abroad, I want to know how much it's going to cost us," said Rep. Bruce Braley (D-IA) in a statement. "It's important that the president give us and all American taxpayers an accurate answer on this issue."
Congress is out of session this week. But the Obama Administration plans to convene a special intelligence briefing for lawmakers when they return next week. Meantime, lawmakers from both parties are demanding why there wasn't adequate consultation.
"I think there's going to be a showdown on this issue next week," said Tom McClintock.
If McClintock is right, it's because lawmakers fear mission creep. They fear an operation in Libya that they don't understand. They fear another Somalia, just like that fateful day in downtown Mogadishu nearly 18 years ago.
It's all because no one is entirely certain what the U.S. is doing in Libya. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is clear that only Congress can "declare war."
But what's vexing is which branch has the final say when the nation is "a little bit at war."
Which is precisely how many on Capitol Hill view the current engagement.

[CrufflerSteve]

The wars we are in are almost enough to make me nostalgic for Bubba Clinton. If Libya didn't have oil we'd probably not be there. I hope we can resist the temptation to get in on the ground. The eastern part of Libya has been known to be hard core Islamist. Some of them ended up in Iraq as suicide bombers out to kill American and we're helping them! There have been all sorts of worries that once Wacky was gone the place would fall apart. Hopefully, this will not last long. After all, Libya was conquered by the Italians.

The War Nerd at the Exiled has been doing a daily blog on this war: http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/ He's infuriating but entertaining.

Steve

[Byte Stryke]

all I Have to say is you better start studying your geography kids.


http://www.state.gov/cms_images/new_map_nea_1.jpg

[Anton]

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/996/2011oilexportsbydestina.gif
http://www.eia.doe.gov/countries/cab.cfm?fips=LY

Its Europe's problem. I don't understand why we're involved at all.