View Full Version : Freedom called .........
Scanker19
03-19-2011, 22:00
It said "that's it, I'm outta here"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_war_protest#mwpphu-container
I knew this would happen when we did this. He says blah, blah, protest. then our citizens get arrested for Peaceful assembly.
When the american protest grows big enough they will use violence against us. Just as he demanded Libya to stop.
What's good for the goose, will shut the gander the fuck up.
Did they get a permit before they started?
If the "t's" are crossed and the "i's" are dotted And, the fee payed..
If not, all bets are off.
Holy shit? The US Army shot and killed those protestors in front of the White House? We attacked them with mortar fire and F111's?
No?
Then why are we comparing arrest of a Daniel "Traitor" Eisenberg to the killing of women and children in Libya? Remind me again how arrest for refusing a lawful order is the same as the military killing women and children?
Scanker19
03-19-2011, 22:30
Holy shit? The US Army shot and killed those protestors in front of the White House? We attacked them with mortar fire and F111's?
No?
Then why are we comparing arrest of a Daniel "Traitor" Eisenberg to the killing of women and children in Libya? Remind me again how arrest for refusing a lawful order is the same as the military killing women and children?
not yet.
I'm sure the mideast protests started semi peacefully. Besides I don't think I was comparing the two, but where does it stop. When do the "lawful Orders" stop or begin. Who would be Mildly upset if a "lawful order" shut down this site.
Although I don't agree with the protest of the arrest of Brad Retard manning. It just seems they don't like what we (americans) have to say.
porfiriozg
03-19-2011, 22:41
Did they get a permit before they started?
If the "t's" are crossed and the "i's" are dotted And, the fee payed..
If not, all bets are off.
that the reason nothing get done in the US anymore you have to do a months worth of paper work before you can start work, even if the job only takes an hour.
I love this country as much as anyone else, and I'm joining the navy soon. but WTF
Ok, I'll say it. We (the USA) don't want Libya to fall. We are only attacking them tonight because (in my opinion) the UN moved faster than we thought they would. Given a choice, Obama would (rightfully) let him kill all his civilians, and I can't fault the logic in letting him do so. It might be the asshole thing to do, but it would be in the best interests of the US to let Mommar stay in control.
Remember folks, 60% (and up to 80% by some reports) of the foreign fighters in Iraq are either SA's or Libyan. We saw what happens when we overthrow a dictator who can keep his people under his thumb. Without knowing how Egypt will turn out, why risk letting Libya go leaderless for a few years?
But, back to the point on the White House protestors. This is no different than the arrests of the protestors in WI over the past few weeks. When the cops tell you to clear out, clear out. If you don't then you get 3 squares and a cot for a while.
I didn't cry when Cindy Nutbag staged an arrest, and I won't cry over these dirty hippies either.
Scanker19
03-19-2011, 23:35
You should care. This a constitutional issue at hand. I could care less what they are protesting, be it war, funerals, or popsicles. Assembly is a right. Not a right you, me or anyone else has to agree with. Getting a permit to assembly is along the lines of a FOID card in IL. Its restricting rights of us, the american people so that the powers that be can decide who is "worthy" of said rights.
Who would be mad if they searched everyone on I-25 for Bombs to prevent terrorism?
We can't have it both ways we either follow the constitution to the T, or not. We can't circumvent it to our convenience, that's how we get GOV ran healthcare or Assault weapons bans, illegal search and seizures, and restricting freedom of speech because a few don't like it. Or worse people don't care.
Rant off.
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 06:18
Holy shit? The US Army shot and killed those protestors in front of the White House? We attacked them with mortar fire and F111's?
No?
Then why are we comparing arrest of a Daniel "Traitor" Eisenberg to the killing of women and children in Libya? Remind me again how arrest for refusing a UNLAWFUL order is the same as the military killing women and children?
Fixed it for you
and in Case you have forgotten due to state media influences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights)
Hint: it's the first one.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Yeah, I didn't see "pay a state sanction tax" or "apply for permit" anywhere in there.
One thing so many subjects, I mean Citizens, are forgetting is that the Bill of rights is 24/7/365. Its not "only when its convenient" or "Whenever the state says it's OK"
INALIENABLE
convenience quote: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inalienable)
in·alien·able
adj
\(ˌ)i-ˈnāl-yə-nə-bəl, -ˈnā-lē-ə-nə-\
Definition of INALIENABLE
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred <inalienable rights>
— in·alien·abil·i·ty \-ˌnāl-yə-nə-ˈbi-lə-tē, -ˌnā-lē-ə-nə-\ noun
— in·alien·ably \-ˈnāl-yə-nə-blē, -ˈnā-lē-ə-nə-\ adverb
.learners-link div.learners-link-content { font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; padding: 0pt 5px 0pt 22px; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a .word { text-decoration: none; }.learners-link div.learners-link-content a:hover .word { color: rgb(83, 88, 169); text-decoration: underline; }#content .definition div.d .learners-link a, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:hover, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:link, #content .definition div.d .learners-link a:visited { color: black; font-family: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-variant: normal; font-size: 13px; text-decoration: none; }http://www.merriam-webster.com/styles/default/images/reference/external.jpg See inalienable defined for English-language learners » (http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/inalienable)
Origin of INALIENABLE
probably from French inaliénable, from in- + aliénable alienableFirst Known Use: circa 1645
So, With all of that I ask you this:
Can any officer of the state/Union lawfully give an order that violates, restricts or removes a an inalienable right granted under the U.S Constitution?
Lawfully violating the amendments of the constitution?
JohnTRourke
03-20-2011, 07:12
You should care. This a constitutional issue at hand. I could care less what they are protesting, be it war, funerals, or popsicles. Assembly is a right. Not a right you, me or anyone else has to agree with. Getting a permit to assembly is along the lines of a FOID card in IL. Its restricting rights of us, the american people so that the powers that be can decide who is "worthy" of said rights.
Who would be mad if they searched everyone on I-25 for Bombs to prevent terrorism?
We can't have it both ways we either follow the constitution to the T, or not. We can't circumvent it to our convenience, that's how we get GOV ran healthcare or Assault weapons bans, illegal search and seizures, and restricting freedom of speech because a few don't like it. Or worse people don't care.
Rant off.
well said
although freedom died a long time ago
we live in a police state, but no one seems to care.
don't think so?
think I'm wrong?
In the 1930's, we all made fun of nazi germany because citizens of germany could be forced to stop for no reason and show their papers to be allowed to travel.
now we have:
"random" DUI stops
TSA groping
etc
No way would anyone of the 1930's have imagined that, yet here we are?
We have so many police (because the peace officers are long gone) that they have nothing better to do but enforce the laws for money/fishing expeditions (or do you think that cops sitting on the side of the road running radar is for your safety?)
and we have this week here in longmont, the SWAT team with full M16 rifles, black ski masks, black boots, black vests (remind you of anything, I'll give you a hint: 1938 Germany) going in to a medical MJ shop to shut it down because of a code violation. Really, do you feel safer?
In the fine words of Jerry Pournelle:
"Freedom is not free, free men are not equal, equal men are not free. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. We would not have permitted King George to do this.?"
just a thought
Maybe one of the reasons the government is so hot to prevent protesting and make it unlawful is because thats all we do (as americans ) . The rest of the world has been waiting for us to act . If all we do is protest and try to get bills passed then its no wonder they keep stripping our rights away .
They do something we dont like and then distract us with a shiny ball just to do something else we dont like , just to show use another shiny ball .
People say vote to change and then you ask them who they voted for . The usual answer is "the lesser of 2 evils " .Correct me if im wrong , isn't a vote for the lesser of two evils still a vote for evil ?? If your neighbor or employer took something , taxed you or changed the rules as often as our government dose , what would you do ? You would quit that job or go fight that person responsible ect . the point im trying to make is unless people are willing to stop voting for scumbags and get out there and physically stand up for what they believe in more and of this will happen .
I think ideas like organized open carry day are great (although if something goes to wrong ,like a shooting, were all screwed!!! ) . they say you have to regester your guns in maryland , i move . they say you cant hardly look at a gun in California , ill never live there . Yes like most folks id rather not get into it with the government , but if there are enough people backed into a corner ill bet we see some nasty change . Its too bad that its coming to that , but with a bad economy and more rules , nothing good can come of it .
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 07:53
well said
although freedom died a long time ago
we live in a police state, but no one seems to care.
don't think so?
think I'm wrong?
In the 1930's, we all made fun of nazi germany because citizens of germany could be forced to stop for no reason and show their papers to be allowed to travel.
now we have:
"random" DUI stops
TSA groping
etc
No way would anyone of the 1930's have imagined that, yet here we are?
We have so many police (because the peace officers are long gone) that they have nothing better to do but enforce the laws for money/fishing expeditions (or do you think that cops sitting on the side of the road running radar is for your safety?)
and we have this week here in longmont, the SWAT team with full M16 rifles, black ski masks, black boots, black vests (remind you of anything, I'll give you a hint: 1938 Germany) going in to a medical MJ shop to shut it down because of a code violation. Really, do you feel safer?
In the fine words of Jerry Pournelle:
"Freedom is not free, free men are not equal, equal men are not free. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. We would not have permitted King George to do this.?"
They really used a SWAT team to shut down a store for a code violation?
Can you imagine them using swat to shut down a liquor store?
[ROFL1]
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
Byte: Go into a crowded movie theatre and yell 'FIRE' real loud two or three times. Attend either the DNC or the RNC, and yell 'He's got a gun!' real loud while the cameras are rolling.
When you get out, we will talk about the limits the SCOTUS has placed on "unlimited" freedom of speech. [LOL]
Here, I'll be all fancy with the quotes as well: http://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?Search=free+speech&type=Site
When a cop tells you to do something, you do it. If he abridged your rights, then you can sue.
i still say nuke them...less bombs are required. we can even call the bomber a "hybrid" or "fuel efficient" aircraft since we will be using less fuel than multiple planes/ships etc. that label will make the liberals happy too. "Green aircraft delivers aid to Libya" will be the headline.
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 12:11
Byte: Go into a crowded movie theatre and yell 'FIRE' real loud two or three times. Attend either the DNC or the RNC, and yell 'He's got a gun!' real loud while the cameras are rolling.
When you get out, we will talk about the limits the SCOTUS has placed on "unlimited" freedom of speech. [LOL]
Here, I'll be all fancy with the quotes as well: http://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?Search=free+speech&type=Site
When a cop tells you to do something, you do it. If he abridged your rights, then you can sue.
Well it doesn't take a civics professor to figure that ones rights never supersede the rights of another, But nice false argument.
Just as one cannot fabricate and spread lies in either written or spoken form.
As much as I Strongly disagree with disagree with Them, Even WBC has the right to their hate filled crap.
Each right has responsibility, Please do try to be better in your presentations in the future. While everyone has the right to free speech, Ignorance and false arguments are not protected.
As for the state officers abridging rights, when your taxes are multiplied by the repetitive lawsuits brought by Citizens that will not be folded asunder by fear of their government, Remember, Just shut up and do what your government tells you to do.
Let me be clear, I do not agree with what the protestors are saying, But I Will defend with my life their right to say it.
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
good day
JohnTRourke
03-20-2011, 12:27
They really used a SWAT team to shut down a store for a code violation?
Can you imagine them using swat to shut down a liquor store?
[ROFL1]
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
yep
a medical MJ store
for a code violation.
check Longmont Times Call website back a few days for the story, even has a picture of the stormtrooper, errr I mean police officer all walking around the office.
Watch new episodes of CODE TROOPERS on msnbc,
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 13:18
Remember folks, 60% (and up to 80% by some reports) of the foreign fighters in Iraq are either SA's or Libyan.
Having spent a year in Iraq dealing with the detained foreign fighters and con-airing their sorry asses back to their home countries, I can say the majority were Iranian, followed by Syrian and Egyptian. There even was a British born muslim there that the Brits took control of. It was funny to hear a British accent coming from that guy, who was in compound with a number of other, different countried people. As for Libyian? Might have been one or two, but definitely a minority amount compared to other countries.
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 13:38
and we have this week here in longmont, the SWAT team with full M16 rifles, black ski masks, black boots, black vests (remind you of anything, I'll give you a hint: 1938 Germany) going in to a medical MJ shop to shut it down because of a code violation. Really, do you feel safer?
This photo? Really? Nazi Germany? Uh huh...
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz210/bluebouyz/longmonttimesphoto.jpg
MARCH 18, 2011
Longmont police talk Thursday with Jonny Barrera, right, manager of Mother Greens medical marijuana dispensary at 615 Ken Pratt Blvd. in Longmont. Police served a search warrant at the business to look for violations of the city’s code and, specifically, violations of the business’ agreement with the city outlining the type of business Mother Greens is allowed to conduct. Richard M. Hackett/Times-Call
your rights < officer safety
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 15:02
This photo? Really? Nazi Germany? Uh huh...
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz210/bluebouyz/longmonttimesphoto.jpg
MARCH 18, 2011
Longmont police talk Thursday with Jonny Barrera, right, manager of Mother Greens medical marijuana dispensary at 615 Ken Pratt Blvd. in Longmont. Police served a search warrant at the business to look for violations of the city’s code and, specifically, violations of the business’ agreement with the city outlining the type of business Mother Greens is allowed to conduct. Richard M. Hackett/Times-Call
I wouldn't say Nazi Germany... but it appears a bit overboard for a code violation.
We are talking about a Legal registered business with a storefront, not a crack house.
Just my 2 cents
I'm all for no limits on peaceable assembly.
but when mexican high school students do a protest walk out and clog the streets for their cause, I should be able to run them over.
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 15:20
I'm all for no limits on peaceable assembly.
but when mexican high school students do a protest walk out and clog the streets for their cause, I should be able to run them over.
Nice example.
while I Don't agree with your solution (Publicly)
Their right to assemble has interfered with your rights.
Had they kept their protest in a safe area, it would not have affected you and you probably would not have been as involved in their protest.
They should have not interfered in the rights of others while exercising their rights.
JohnTRourke
03-20-2011, 16:58
I wouldn't say Nazi Germany... but it appears a bit overboard for a code violation.
We are talking about a Legal registered business with a storefront, not a crack house.
Just my 2 cents
and that picture he posted is clearly WAY after they came barging in to serve them with their code violation. (and allowed the photographer in)
c'mon, the one guy still has his BLACK SKI MASK on.
yeah, at least in Nazi Germany they didn't wear face masks.
They get off on playing the game. Overkill is always the answer but none of them have real balls. They are like a gang, just watch the vids of arrests they make on 1 person. Takes a group.
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 18:16
They get off on playing the game. Overkill is always the answer but none of them have real balls. They are like a gang, just watch the vids of arrests they make on 1 person. Takes a group.
I blame popular television shows.
for every crime they always roll out an entire Crime scene unit, spend hundreds of hours processing evidence for a Mugging. Swat is ALWAYS available for EVERY Warrant. Each Crime gets its own Team to work it exclusively and its solved in an hour.
OH and CSI Field techs ALWAYS Charge into the house first, guns drawn.
Not bashing LEOs here
Bashing TV
Just so we are straight.
:D
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 18:24
I wouldn't say Nazi Germany... but it appears a bit overboard for a code violation.
We are talking about a Legal registered business with a storefront, not a crack house.
Just my 2 cents
They were executing a search warrant. How many people do you think you might need to go through a "legitimate" businesses records? One? C'mon. A little common sense goes a long way, Byte.
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 18:27
I blame popular television shows.
for every crime they always roll out an entire Crime scene unit, spend hundreds of hours processing evidence for a Mugging. Swat is ALWAYS available for EVERY Warrant. Each Crime gets its own Team to work it exclusively and its solved in an hour.
OH and CSI Field techs ALWAYS Charge into the house first, guns drawn.
Not bashing LEOs here
Bashing TV
Just so we are straight.
:D
I also blame the current genre of cop and CSI shows. The public believes that is what is going to happen when the cops come. All big tech CSI. Spyder's post is an example. He took the bat, protected it with plastic. Why? He thought they would fingerprint (which they might) or do DNA (which they will not). He was disappointed in how the officer dealt with it. He was expecting more, but didn't know exactly what. His expectations came from TV. (Sorry, Spyder, but your posting was perfect for this example.)
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 18:29
They were executing a search warrant. How many people do you think you might need to go through a "legitimate" businesses records? One? C'mon. A little common sense goes a long way, Byte.
I was referring more to the ski mask and outer armor.
I'm Sure there were helmets and Pro-Masks, ARs and General "Storm Trooper" Antics off camera by John's Description.
But yeah... he looks silly standing there with the mask on for just discussing things
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 18:33
I was referring more to the ski mask and outer armor.
I'm Sure there were helmets and Pro-Masks, ARs and General "Storm Trooper" Antics off camera by John's Description.
But yeah... he looks silly standing there with the mask on for just discussing things
No argument there. However, I can make a guess why. He probably works the PD's narcotic's unit and either was personally involved in whatever caused them to obtain a search warrant or they have the MJ businesses under their narcotics unit's responsibility. The latter being a stupid move, in my opinion. I can tell you from personal experience of having to wear a mask when executing warrants at target locations that I purchased cocaine at, due to manpower issues. I would have preferred to not be a part of the search warrant executions, but things happen.
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 19:13
No argument there. However, I can make a guess why. He probably works the PD's narcotic's unit and either was personally involved in whatever caused them to obtain a search warrant or they have the MJ businesses under their narcotics unit's responsibility. The latter being a stupid move, in my opinion. I can tell you from personal experience of having to wear a mask when executing warrants at target locations that I purchased cocaine at, due to manpower issues. I would have preferred to not be a part of the search warrant executions, but things happen.
mmk, I see that logic.
Lets go inside and discuss this away from the camera. Jimbo... without the mask on, yeah you handle the media.
I get OPSEC.
but that's silliness
I think I should get SWAT to adopt clown masks that'll really screw with the perps.
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 19:29
I think I should get SWAT to adopt clown masks that'll really screw with the perps.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz210/bluebouyz/scary-clown.jpg
OneGuy67
03-20-2011, 19:30
mmk, I see that logic.
Lets go inside and discuss this away from the camera. Jimbo... without the mask on, yeah you handle the media.
I get OPSEC.
but that's silliness
Jimbo may have been the one he dealt with and doesn't want his face recognized just yet. They may go back in again later and deal with Jimbo again. We wouldn't want Jimbo to know he dealt with an undercover cop and refuse to deal with him some more later, would we?
Byte Stryke
03-20-2011, 19:53
Just saying there are 2 other guys there.
I get your point but to me it smacks of "Tacti-cool Dude syndrome"
Could just be a real ugly MoFo and boss said to keep the fucker on.
Scanker19
03-20-2011, 20:07
Reminds me of the Terps we had in Iraq. They would always wear masks and then tell us that the area was safe.[M2]
Hey, at least they got a warrant.
JohnTRourke
03-21-2011, 06:52
Look, I get the basic thoughts behind all the cops on here defending the procedures used (ski masks, etc).
But you (you the cops,not "you" in particular) and your brothers in blue need to stop and think.
There are a lot more of us good guys than bad guys. You need us a lot more than we need you. You're losing us. I've never changed, the cops have. Respect is earned over a lifetime and all it takes is one act to blow it.
Every image that we see with $hit like this drives us further away. For some people one particular BS incident is that straw on the camel's back. You never know what that straw might be, but you need to stop putting them there and start taking them off.
You can't win over everybody and some people are just bad people. But the cops aren't even trying to win anyone. It's like they are trying to piss everyone off. You're succeeding in pissing us off, but that won't work in the long run.
And really, don't give us this BS about "rules and procedures". If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, point it out AND STOP DOING IT. And if you 'lose your job", well too fucking bad, that's what being a free man is all about: having the opportunity to do the right thing.
Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences.
When I was young cops had respect, you didn't here about them getting shot. They handled things as a person, one of us not I AM BETTER THAN YOU because I have a badge. Kid got in trouble they went to the parents kid didn't get processed, now you have lost the kid if that happens.(as far as respecting law enforcement)
Cops lived in your neighborhood and participated in kids football, cleaning up a certain lot, blah blah.
But they are too good for that sort of thing, they hang with their gang bros at the police only gym or other.
I agree the people have lost respect because of the actions of the so called better than others attitude. And the fact that we will ALL beat on you after we cuff you because you were resisting. GMAFB
OneGuy67
03-21-2011, 11:15
It's obvious to me that I'm not going to change anyone's opinions here. That's fine, I'm not going to waste my time, energy, or brain to try to make you understand or think outside your small box or limited view of the world.
John states, " Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences." Yours too.
Mountain Man laments, "I agree the people have lost respect because of the actions of the so called better than others attitude." The attitude of the general public towards their government in general, and to the public sector employees like the cops in particular, have influenced how the cops deal with the public. Which came first? The cops attitude towards the public or the public's attitude towards the cops? I'm sure you'll say it was the cops; the cops are going to say it was the publics. Who's right? Maybe both.
When you see a video of cops handcuff a person and then 5 or 6 beating the shit outa that person you lose respect fast. Cops have a gang mentality it's us against them. They no longer Protect And Serve, their new job is to arrest and harrass.
It's the governments Job to make sure every citizen has a record so they can no longer leagally be armed.
In my family my great grandpa's on both sides were cops, and my grandpa on my dads side was a cop.
I loved those guys because they were people. They were Citizens. All had served in the military but never did they think they were still in it, and that people were enemy.
Another thing they were Men, tall, in shape rugged men. Not these fat ass donut eating can't even hold their pants and belts up. Sad to see PC ness I'll sue because of discrimination BS take precident over what used to be an elite work force of only the best.
Look, I get the basic thoughts behind all the cops on here defending the procedures used (ski masks, etc).
But you (you the cops,not "you" in particular) and your brothers in blue need to stop and think.
There are a lot more of us good guys than bad guys. You need us a lot more than we need you. You're losing us. I've never changed, the cops have. Respect is earned over a lifetime and all it takes is one act to blow it.
Every image that we see with $hit like this drives us further away. For some people one particular BS incident is that straw on the camel's back. You never know what that straw might be, but you need to stop putting them there and start taking them off.
You can't win over everybody and some people are just bad people. But the cops aren't even trying to win anyone. It's like they are trying to piss everyone off. You're succeeding in pissing us off, but that won't work in the long run.
And really, don't give us this BS about "rules and procedures". If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, point it out AND STOP DOING IT. And if you 'lose your job", well too fucking bad, that's what being a free man is all about: having the opportunity to do the right thing.
Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences.
A+
I used to know the cops that walked the beat in my neighborhood , they were friendly and knew everyone and everyone knew them BY NAME. Now cops dont want to know the neighborhood or the residents , everybody is treated like a criminal . Have not seen a cop "walk the beat " in a long time and now who do you call ??? some random cop who knows nothing about the neighborhood or the people who live in it . I cant say what the problem is , not enough cops or bad management , but it would be nice to see a friendly face or two that i know and knows me and my neighbors by name.
JohnTRourke
03-21-2011, 18:29
It's obvious to me that I'm not going to change anyone's opinions here. That's fine, I'm not going to waste my time, energy, or brain to try to make you understand or think outside your small box or limited view of the world.
John states, " Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences." Yours too.
See
proves my point.
I'm the enemy just because I'm here working hard, paying taxes and getting along with my life. My choices are the same they have always been. Get along, pay taxes, go to work, etc. Never got a ticket I didn't deserve and only a couple of the cops were assholes. I don't drink, don't do drugs, not a felon, pass a background check and pay a shit ton of taxes and really almost never have any interaction with the police. And yet, my respect for the police is pretty much zero right now.
Yet I'm the enemy because of MY choices?
You might be a nice guy, but you're really missing the point. We don't hate you personally, we hate your organization and what it's become. but if you aren't willing to seperate yourself from that organization and realize that some (many) of these things that are happening are just simply wrong (perhaps even evil) then you are tarred with the same brush.
Your actions have consequences and just saying "it's my job" or "don't like the law change it" is crap, and deep down inside you know it. And yes, police have a privileged position in society and we do in fact hold them to a higher standard.
You (and clearly all the rest of the police) are not listening. Listen, don't just respond, listen to the comments here, not just from me, but from many. All gun owners (clean records), tax payers, the typical patriotic American as a whole and we're not happy with what the police now represent and in some cases (the other thread) simply don't trust the police at all.
You need us more than we need you. In fact, look at the other thread, where people say "don't ever invite the man into your life". Here's an honest upright citizen who basically is saying the police can only make your life worse, not better. That's what police now represent to what should be your biggest supporters . This is not a good thing and only the police can change it in a good way. The police only operate with the authority of the society, if you lose that social contract, then you have nothing.
BTW
Why don't cops have anything in common with "civilians", or friends with non-cops? Whose fault is that? Takes two people to be friends.
I didn't have this attitude 15 years ago, it's not me that changed. People who should be your biggest supporters are telling you something that you don't want to hear, but it doesn't make it not true.
Before you start typing, take a deep breath and go back thru this whole thread and really LISTEN to what people are saying. They are saying something that people are simply not going to present to cops because we're just "civilians" and we will be (and are) ignored. You have a real wealth of information here, real data (albeit anecdotal) that you and your "brothers in blue" really need to take consideration of. Maybe you'll decide it's all crap and the blue line is doing nothing wrong. That might even be true (although I doubt it), but perhaps you can take this information and improve both yourself personally and the police as whole. We're telling you the system is broken and it needs to be fixed, don't blame the messenger for that.
Was me I'd take all this to my co workers and command and show them why people feel the way they do towards the officers.
OneGuy67
03-21-2011, 20:10
See
proves my point.
I'm the enemy just because I'm here working hard, paying taxes and getting along with my life. My choices are the same they have always been. Get along, pay taxes, go to work, etc. Never got a ticket I didn't deserve and only a couple of the cops were assholes. I don't drink, don't do drugs, not a felon, pass a background check and pay a shit ton of taxes and really almost never have any interaction with the police. And yet, my respect for the police is pretty much zero right now.
Yet I'm the enemy because of MY choices?
You might be a nice guy, but you're really missing the point. We don't hate you personally, we hate your organization and what it's become. but if you aren't willing to seperate yourself from that organization and realize that some (many) of these things that are happening are just simply wrong (perhaps even evil) then you are tarred with the same brush.
Your actions have consequences and just saying "it's my job" or "don't like the law change it" is crap, and deep down inside you know it. And yes, police have a privileged position in society and we do in fact hold them to a higher standard.
You (and clearly all the rest of the police) are not listening. Listen, don't just respond, listen to the comments here, not just from me, but from many. All gun owners (clean records), tax payers, the typical patriotic American as a whole and we're not happy with what the police now represent and in some cases (the other thread) simply don't trust the police at all.
You need us more than we need you. In fact, look at the other thread, where people say "don't ever invite the man into your life". Here's an honest upright citizen who basically is saying the police can only make your life worse, not better. That's what police now represent to what should be your biggest supporters . This is not a good thing and only the police can change it in a good way. The police only operate with the authority of the society, if you lose that social contract, then you have nothing.
BTW
Why don't cops have anything in common with "civilians", or friends with non-cops? Whose fault is that? Takes two people to be friends.
I didn't have this attitude 15 years ago, it's not me that changed. People who should be your biggest supporters are telling you something that you don't want to hear, but it doesn't make it not true.
Before you start typing, take a deep breath and go back thru this whole thread and really LISTEN to what people are saying. They are saying something that people are simply not going to present to cops because we're just "civilians" and we will be (and are) ignored. You have a real wealth of information here, real data (albeit anecdotal) that you and your "brothers in blue" really need to take consideration of. Maybe you'll decide it's all crap and the blue line is doing nothing wrong. That might even be true (although I doubt it), but perhaps you can take this information and improve both yourself personally and the police as whole. We're telling you the system is broken and it needs to be fixed, don't blame the messenger for that.
I'm not sure what point of yours I've proven, other than to accept the fact that your position has consequences. I don't and won't try to change it.
No one but yourself as accused you of being the enemy. You put that label onto yourself, not me. You want a rational conversation? We can have one. However, you are going to have to realize your position may be what goes for the norm here on this forum, it isn't the norm for most of society.
I can't change your decision to like cops or not. Frankly, I don't care. You have your opinions and I have mine. The middle, apparently, they shall not meet.
Frankly, I'm not missing the point you are trying to make. You want to hate something, to put the onus on something and to blame something. You want to blame "the establishment". The cops are the face of establishment. You want to point fingers and say they are storm troopers, they remind you of Nazi Germany, and remember fondly the days of old, when there was cop walking a beat in downtown Longmont who knew everyone's name and took them home to their parents when they misbehaved. How dare those cops execute a search warrant at that marijuana shop? That poor owner is just trying to make a living. How dare there be more than one cop there? How dare they wear a protective vest to a place where there may be firearms and people who will not be happy to see them?
You want to tar me with the same brush, then go ahead. Your opinion of something being wrong doesn't make it wrong. You don't like the way "the government" runs. I get that. Because in your opinion, something is terribly wrong, but it doesn't make it terribly wrong. It could be just that it isn't the way you want it to be. I don't like a lot of what the federal government is doing and I'm not too fond of the current state government makeup. Doesn't change what I do on a daily basis. I still go out and put in my time doing my job and I do it knowing there are people like you out there who don't respect the job I do and dislike me for doing it.
My actions do have consequences; far more than yours. I can be sued for a variety of different things, from failure to train, failure to supervise, failure to act, failure in execution. I am scrutinized and frankly, should be, by the people I work for, which happen to be the people you elected in our representative republic and ultimately, the citizenry. I am held to a higher standard and all who have a badge should be. That badge should be taken away when they violate the trust and responsibility that comes with it. However, it isn't up to you to say when that occurs. Too many here have had their own dealings with the police and they feel they were not treated correctly, the case not handled like they wanted or the outcome not what they wanted. "The police were rude while I was a perfect angel" isn't going to fly. Their case, their investigation may not have passed the sniff test with their local district or city attorney, who ultimately has to prosecute the case.
I don't say "It's my job" or "don't like the law, change it", although they are truisms. I don't make the laws, I enforce them. THAT IS MY JOB (There, I said it). Some laws I don't agree with; doesn't change my job.
Who exactly are the police supposed to be listening to? Your simplistic answer is: the public. It isn't that simplistic. Wish it were. Life isn't simplistic anymore. Is the public represented in the occasional person who calls and complains that law enforcement isn't doing what that person thinks they should? Should law enforcement be listening to the people who employ them, the city counsels, the county commissioners, the mayors, city and county managers, the state representatives and other elected officials? Simplistic answer is yes. Ours is a representative republic; you elect people to represent you and to run things, to hire law enforcement. In that, you have a voice to raise. You can petition your peeps, or complain directly. You can assemble and petition your government for redress. You can complain to the officer's supervisor and work your way on up the chain. Whether they take you seriously, depends on you.
You want me to listen to the comments posted here. I do. There are many like yourself that don't really seem to truly comprehend this isn't the 60's anymore. You lament about the loss of the neighborhood cop walking a beat who knew your name. That went away when cops got vehicles and radios, in about the 60's. It is sad, I agree, but that is reality. Times have changed. There are more people, more crime, less cops.
You want me to believe that all gun owners have clean records. Can't do that. Too many I run into do not. Too many I deal with believe that a gun equals power equals respect. Not unlike some here? You want me to believe that all gun owners are tax payers, are typical patriotic Americans. What is that exactly? Your idea of that may not be what my idea of that is. My idea of a patriot is someone who puts their ass where their mouth is and signs on the dotted line and serves their country and their fellow man, goes where their country tells them to and physically represents their country's foreign policy. Yours apparently are all unhappy with what the police represent and don't trust the police. I have nothing to say at that. What can I say? Your idea of what America looks like apparently is different than my own.
"Don't ever invite the man into your life" as quoted from a different thread. Yep. That is the general thought here on this forum. Pretty sad, too. There is nothing I can say that will change anyone's opinion here on that. I just hope that those who say it here on an anonymous internet forum will say it in real life when or if, that time comes when you need some assistance. I will applaud your intestinal fortitude and your resolve to stand by your beliefs if you do.
Here's the rub. I've said it earlier and I'll say it again. Who changed? Did society as a whole change, or parts of society who make up a louder and more noisy section of it change, or the police change? We'll be on two different sides of that belief and argument.
Why do I need you more than you need us? 'You' as you have stated is the general public and not you (you), although I don't want to put words in your mouth. Frankly, 'you' are my workload and without you, I wouldn't have to put in 60-80 hours a week, dealing with 'you'. So, if 'you' would stop being deviant, then 'I' wouldn't have to continually deal with 'you'. You understand? [Coffee]
I related my experiences previously of losing my non-cop friends over the years. You want to find fault with it? Fine. I guess I'm at fault. I've explained previously my experiences and here you are, acting like that guy at the party who has a bellyfull of liquid courage and asks the stupid questions. You ever in the military? If so, in combat? Can you explain combat to someone who has never been there or ever hope to understand it? Same with law enforcement (please don't accuse me of correlating the two. I've seen and done both). I can't explain to you the latest homicide I'm working or try to get you to understand the motivation behind the killing, what the crime scene looked like, how it smelled, the shattered remains of the families involved, their desperate desire to understand the reasons why. As an insurance salesman, you have no idea as that is out of your realm of experiences and frankly, for some, they don't want to know or hear about those things. So how do you relate? Common interests? You can only talk about fishing for so long. That is why we do tend to gravitate to others who understand, who have seen similar things and we can talk about them without sounding like we are giving a lecture at the local college on crime scenes. Very similar to combat troops in that regard. I was 11B, by the way...
You told me to take a deep breath before writing this and believe me, I didn't write this out of anger. I am up for respectful conversation and dialgoue, but it has to be respectful. Not because I'm a cop, because I'm a human being, who is putting a lot out there for not only you to read and maybe understand, but for a whole bunch of others to read as well.
The "wealth of information" you allege to, is again, your opinion of things. Why should I listen to your opinion any more than anyone else's? Because you feel some comradre with some of the people here doesn't make the combined opinions a social norm or the opinion of the majority of people. There are people on this forum whose opinions I do respect, even if they clash with my own. We can agree to be civil with each other, express our points and agree that there is some merit to their argument. I'm not sure you fit into that catagory, especially when you tell me to "take this information (opinion) and improve both yourself personally and the police as a whole". Sorry, Brian. I have to know you and respect you before I will take anything you have to say and "improve" myself with it.
Who exactly are the police supposed to be listening to? Your simplistic answer is: the public. It isn't that simplistic. Wish it were. Life isn't simplistic anymore. Is the public represented in the occasional person who calls and complains that law enforcement isn't doing what that person thinks they should? Should law enforcement be listening to the people who employ them, the city counsels, the county commissioners, the mayors, city and county managers, the state representatives and other elected officials? Simplistic answer is yes. Ours is a representative republic; you elect people to represent you and to run things, to hire law enforcement. In that, you have a voice to raise. You can petition your peeps, or complain directly. You can assemble and petition your government for redress. You can complain to the officer's supervisor and work your way on up the chain. Whether they take you seriously, depends on you.
You want me to listen to the comments posted here. I do. There are many like yourself that don't really seem to truly comprehend this isn't the 60's anymore. You lament about the loss of the neighborhood cop walking a beat who knew your name. That went away when cops got vehicles and radios, in about the 60's. It is sad, I agree, but that is reality. Times have changed. There are more people, more crime, less cops.
yes your right its not as simplistic as anyone would like to think and your also right its not the 60's but you are wrong in some citys they still walk a beat , baltimore being one of them , no not all the neborhoods but you do still see cops on foot , also new york city . Sure denver is different but i do remember when i lived here as a kid , i knew the cops and they knew me , granted its been a while since i was a kid . but the point im trying to make is . when ever a cop stops in the neighborhood it seems to be just for crime . Maybe what im asking for is the police as a whole make an effort to get out of the car and just say hello "im officer blank and i drive around your neighborhood , maybe if you tried that with any old person you would find that your respect level would go up and in turn your job would be easier. Nobody is asking you to go door to door and shake hands , just pick a block or two a day , and hang out , read the paper wait for a call , if you see an old lady , help her with her things . No one is even asking you stop doing your job and dont pretend like you cant spare a few minutes of time for a grandma . I know if a cop help out my mother or grandmother with anything for no reason , hell even if i heard that it happened in that past 20 years to anyone's grandma or mother , my respect level would go up .
I honestly dont care if you think my view is simplistic but all the older folks i know are scared to call the police , aren't these and children the people who need cops the most ???
OneGuy67
03-21-2011, 21:31
yes your right its not as simplistic as anyone would like to think and your also right its not the 60's but you are wrong in some citys they still walk a beat , baltimore being one of them , no not all the neborhoods but you do still see cops on foot , also new york city . Sure denver is different but i do remember when i lived here as a kid , i knew the cops and they knew me , granted its been a while since i was a kid . but the point im trying to make is . when ever a cop stops in the neighborhood it seems to be just for crime . Maybe what im asking for is the police as a whole make an effort to get out of the car and just say hello "im officer blank and i drive around your neighborhood , maybe if you tried that with any old person you would find that your respect level would go up and in turn your job would be easier. Nobody is asking you to go door to door and shake hands , just pick a block or two a day , and hang out , read the paper wait for a call , if you see an old lady , help her with her things . No one is even asking you stop doing your job and dont pretend like you cant spare a few minutes of time for a grandma . I know if a cop help out my mother or grandmother with anything for no reason , hell even if i heard that it happened in that past 20 years to anyone's grandma or mother , my respect level would go up .
I honestly dont care if you think my view is simplistic but all the older folks i know are scared to call the police , aren't these and children the people who need cops the most ???
I don't disagree with any of your points. You make some great points! In fact, at the last agency I worked at, it was a requirement to do many of the things you recommend and the police approval rate was 95% in every survey conducted during the 10 years I was there.
That city had a lower rate of crime, which allowed the officers to do what you recommend. We had officers who routinely visited elderly citizens that lived alone in the city.
Yes, New York City does have cops walking a beat. They had a couple on each block, which was the answer Mayor Rudy G. had to try to fix their crime problem. It was successful...and expensive. I was there in NYC in 2008 and that was no longer the norm. I saw a few cops here and there, but not like it was when I visited during the height of Rudy's "solution".
Unfortunately, there is too many calls for service and not enough cops in a lot of cities. My last agency, the city population was over 100,000 during the day and we had 6 cops and a supervisor on. On good days, we had a traffic officer or two. That is the norm for most agencies that size. Some less. I'm not looking for pity for cops, I'm trying to get people to understand. I understand that for some towns and counties, this isn't the norm and they have the time to be more proactive, more social.
Also, I've acknowledged in an earlier post that there is a movement with younger officers to be more "tactical" or "tacticool" and I wonder the need for all the toys and things they feel they need. All the companies that cater to the military and to law enforcement are pushing the same toys and topics to both, and the civilian market is buying them up as well because they are "military". Does the officer in La Salle, Evans, La Junta, Salida, or other small town in Colorado really feel the need for the toys for their safety? Are their towns that dangerous? This is something that I observed in my 20 years in law enforcement.
Also, I've acknowledged in an earlier post that there is a movement with younger officers to be more "tactical" or "tacticool" and I wonder the need for all the toys and things they feel they need. All the companies that cater to the military and to law enforcement are pushing the same toys and topics to both, and the civilian market is buying them up as well because they are "military". Does the officer in La Salle, Evans, La Junta, Salida, or other small town in Colorado really feel the need for the toys for their safety? Are their towns that dangerous? This is something that I observed in my 20 years in law enforcement.
i feel that all the tactical toys are tools of a trade involving safety , but in a town of that size they are the tools of a bully .At the same time i think that it is a right to carry a gun ,but no one should feel the need to . So yes i realize just cause i think it , that dose not make it so . But still ar's and ski masks for a legal store front ( not that i agree with pot shops) ,but come on would they have gone through the same tactical nonsense if it had been a hobby store or a regular pharmacy ? I think not ,its all a show to distract us of other things , what i dont know but im sure its happening . Maybe they will pass some law that links all small business together then they shut down pot shops and by doing that they are able to push out other small unrelated shops , just because they are independent . but now im off topic and some would say off my rocker . so ill just put on my tinfoil hat and be quite for a while [Tooth]
OneGuy67
03-21-2011, 23:01
i feel that all the tactical toys are tools of a trade involving safety , but in a town of that size they are the tools of a bully .At the same time i think that it is a right to carry a gun ,but no one should feel the need to . So yes i realize just cause i think it , that dose not make it so . But still ar's and ski masks for a legal store front ( not that i agree with pot shops) ,but come on would they have gone through the same tactical nonsense if it had been a hobby store or a regular pharmacy ? I think not ,its all a show to distract us of other things , what i dont know but im sure its happening . Maybe they will pass some law that links all small business together then they shut down pot shops and by doing that they are able to push out other small unrelated shops , just because they are independent . but now im off topic and some would say off my rocker . so ill just put on my tinfoil hat and be quite for a while [Tooth]
Nah, Alxone! I like having that rational discussion with you. I don't disagree that their officer presence might have been different if the store was a hobby shop or a regular pharmacy and that it might have had something to do with the nature of the business. I don't know. I can speculate though!
Take care. See you at the next topic!
Byte Stryke
03-22-2011, 07:58
"Don't ever invite the man into your life" as quoted from a different thread. Yep. That is the general thought here on this forum. Pretty sad, too. There is nothing I can say that will change anyone's opinion here on that. I just hope that those who say it here on an anonymous internet forum will say it in real life when or if, that time comes when you need some assistance. I will applaud your intestinal fortitude and your resolve to stand by your beliefs if you do.
Here's the rub. I've said it earlier and I'll say it again. Who changed? Did society as a whole change, or parts of society who make up a louder and more noisy section of it change, or the police change? We'll be on two different sides of that belief and argument.
The quote you listed. it isn't so much a slight on Law enforcement as much as it is sound advice.
"Do NOT Talk to police."
"Do not Answer any questions."
It is more a doctrine of self-preservation.
I Call the police for accidents and other absolutely necessary calls. Other than that if there is a cop around, I'm Keeping distance and mouth shut.
ANY interaction imight get me "run to county" at a Minimum for a "Check" because he doesn't like how I look or "has a hunch". (and yes I know this happens)
Who Changed?
Does it matter? you as a police officer can make a difference everyday in your interactions with the public.
You as a ranking officer in your department can influence those in your ranks to do the same.
While we might not see it personally, the public will.
The longest journey begins with a single step.
I'm sorry, I've been slacking.
See, usually when I post things that can be considered anti cop I add the "I hope all good cops are safe and protected by the almighty" disclaimer.
however recently I haven't been doing that. I'll usually post the "insert anti cop comment here" disclaimer. or just make a small, non rant anti cop post like "police acting stupid, go figure" or "officer safety>your rights"
so in the future I will try to include my disclaimer more often.
that people can realize that I am a being of duality.
not only do I hope all the good, honest, brave, hard working officers make it home safe every shift.
I also hope all the king shit, rule breaking, gun taking, ignorant of the law officers get pricked by a needle, catch aids, get shot by a crackhead and die in a fire.
I hope both of these things simultaneously.
it's all bout duality.
so that when we're talking about a cop that shoots a family dog at a traffic stop, or a cop that disarms and detains a citizen lawfully open carrying then tries to arrest him because he has a concealed carry permit (and because you have the permit you HAVE to carry concealed, open carry becomes illegal), or a cop that claims a suspect tried to run him over when later a convenience store camera shows the officer lied, or a cop that makes a hand gesture to his partner to indicate he should plant drugs on a suspect, and I say "stupid idiot cops"
just remember I'm talking about them and not you
have a nice day
JohnTRourke
03-22-2011, 14:25
So, I thought further on this last night (during that stupid wind that never ends, can I call 911 for that? [Muaha] )
Why do normal everyday people not trust or like the police anymore? (I get why scumbags don't like the police, I think that's obvious and has never changed)
I have some thoughts on that.
1. Certainly the issue of the SWAT/tacticool/black storm trooper tactics are big on this. Esp in the gun owner community. Are there occasions where these tactics are needed? Absolutely, but they are probably about 5% of all the times they are used. Come busting into my house/store/other all dressed up in black screaming yelling and waving guns around and if I survive, I'm not going to be happy and my respect goes way down.
1a. war on drugs. it ain't working, wake up.
2. TSA: joke. total joke. I realize they aren't really police, but they are officers of the government and they are killing everyday police feelings for nothing the everyday police did.
3. Border Patrol/INS: joke. I mean, for fucks sake, look around.
4. The whole illegal situation. (in addition to #3). Illegals get away with most everything that the regular guy doesn't. go to court for a traffic offense and you get hammered for some huge fine (because you can pay) while illegal after illegal walks with minimal crap for much bigger things. (been true for 20+ years, you can't tell me that any cop respects this. but when it's not applied to all, it fails to apply to any)
5. 55mph/speeding/red light-speeding cameras. Yes, speeding could be bad, might even contribute, But the cop sitting on the side of the road running radar on a dead straight section of wide open freeway purely to raise money blows all respect for everyone in blue. I think you can certainly trace back a lot of resentment to this whole tactic which only started with the 55mph speed limit thing in the mid 1970's. If you're driving like an asshole, off you go, nobody has a problem with that. But driving 5mph over on a empty road getting a ticket is just wrong and people resent it. esp when everyday I watch way more stupid shit go on (and total junk POS cars on the road with no working brake lights) so they can write a speeding ticket. And then the hypocrisy when they say "oh it's all about safety". that's the final touch that just loses any respect.
6. Laws that only apply to people who have something to lose. gun laws, code enforcement. (get tickets left and right for code violations, watch the 6 illegal families living together with chickens/pigs/etc with cars on blocks go on right down the street. VDH talks a lot about this, esp true in CA). traffic tickets.
6a. Selectively applied laws. Part of code, traffic, drugs, etc. Either it's against the law or it isn't. but just because some people are special pretty much makes the everyone else resent it.
7. DOT cops. Ok, I get they have a tough job and honestly most of them are pretty decent people trying to get the junk off the road. But if you have a question, and you ask the same question to 3 different DOT guys you'll get 3 different answers. How is that useful? how can I plan for that? And yet again, it still comes down to both the illegal situation and the selectively applied laws.
8. thin blue line. yeah, society wants to hold cops to a higher standard. But when nothing happens (investigated by their own) and it's on video or just plain wrong, that's it, you lose thousands of everyday people. I don't know why this happens. Corruption falls under this too.
9. PC/gender standards/incompetence. All the BS (that I'm sure is not coming from cops themselves, but the .gov somewhere) that just kills respect for the cops. Every single woman cop I've met either has a HUGE attitude (while being about 5'2", 110lbs soaking wet), completely incompetent (stuck at a desk) or both. Sorry, when they lowered the standards to "take everyone" it blows it (probably has something to do with #8 above too). I think it becomes a lot of incompetence too. Too busy filling out forms instead of doing work. Don't know/don't care who's fault it is, but zero respect here. And you can't tell me that 90% of the women cops aren't just numbers and have any respect on the force. Maybe (thinking out loud here) this goes back to the whole tacticool thing. Because a 5'2" 110lb woman dealing with a 6'2" 250lb drunk man is going to go right to force where another guy (even a smaller guy) can usually reason with them. (and if not, handle the situation)
10. When things get really bad, cops are generally nowhere to be found. Reginald Denny, LA Riots, Columbine, Katrina. Maybe these are aberrations, but there are a lot of them, those are only the ones that come to mind right now. Police can't claim they have a dangerous job (yeah, like #25 on the list) and then when things get dangerous it's all about officer safety.
Just thoughts, don't know if any are true or not, but it certainly seems like, hope it leads to more discussion. (hope it leads to changes honestly, but I'll start small)
#11. Cops LIE, and LIE and LIE...
They don't know the law but they will tell you a LIE to geet you to fuck up..
They are trained to lie, but want you to tell the truth, Bullshit double standard again.
You lie in any other type of work your ass is fired.
OneGuy67
03-24-2011, 14:07
So, I thought further on this last night (during that stupid wind that never ends, can I call 911 for that? [Muaha] )
Why do normal everyday people not trust or like the police anymore? (I get why scumbags don't like the police, I think that's obvious and has never changed)
I have some thoughts on that.
1. Certainly the issue of the SWAT/tacticool/black storm trooper tactics are big on this. Esp in the gun owner community. Are there occasions where these tactics are needed? Absolutely, but they are probably about 5% of all the times they are used. Come busting into my house/store/other all dressed up in black screaming yelling and waving guns around and if I survive, I'm not going to be happy and my respect goes way down.
1a. war on drugs. it ain't working, wake up.
2. TSA: joke. total joke. I realize they aren't really police, but they are officers of the government and they are killing everyday police feelings for nothing the everyday police did.
3. Border Patrol/INS: joke. I mean, for fucks sake, look around.
4. The whole illegal situation. (in addition to #3). Illegals get away with most everything that the regular guy doesn't. go to court for a traffic offense and you get hammered for some huge fine (because you can pay) while illegal after illegal walks with minimal crap for much bigger things. (been true for 20+ years, you can't tell me that any cop respects this. but when it's not applied to all, it fails to apply to any)
5. 55mph/speeding/red light-speeding cameras. Yes, speeding could be bad, might even contribute, But the cop sitting on the side of the road running radar on a dead straight section of wide open freeway purely to raise money blows all respect for everyone in blue. I think you can certainly trace back a lot of resentment to this whole tactic which only started with the 55mph speed limit thing in the mid 1970's. If you're driving like an asshole, off you go, nobody has a problem with that. But driving 5mph over on a empty road getting a ticket is just wrong and people resent it. esp when everyday I watch way more stupid shit go on (and total junk POS cars on the road with no working brake lights) so they can write a speeding ticket. And then the hypocrisy when they say "oh it's all about safety". that's the final touch that just loses any respect.
6. Laws that only apply to people who have something to lose. gun laws, code enforcement. (get tickets left and right for code violations, watch the 6 illegal families living together with chickens/pigs/etc with cars on blocks go on right down the street. VDH talks a lot about this, esp true in CA). traffic tickets.
6a. Selectively applied laws. Part of code, traffic, drugs, etc. Either it's against the law or it isn't. but just because some people are special pretty much makes the everyone else resent it.
7. DOT cops. Ok, I get they have a tough job and honestly most of them are pretty decent people trying to get the junk off the road. But if you have a question, and you ask the same question to 3 different DOT guys you'll get 3 different answers. How is that useful? how can I plan for that? And yet again, it still comes down to both the illegal situation and the selectively applied laws.
8. thin blue line. yeah, society wants to hold cops to a higher standard. But when nothing happens (investigated by their own) and it's on video or just plain wrong, that's it, you lose thousands of everyday people. I don't know why this happens. Corruption falls under this too.
9. PC/gender standards/incompetence. All the BS (that I'm sure is not coming from cops themselves, but the .gov somewhere) that just kills respect for the cops. Every single woman cop I've met either has a HUGE attitude (while being about 5'2", 110lbs soaking wet), completely incompetent (stuck at a desk) or both. Sorry, when they lowered the standards to "take everyone" it blows it (probably has something to do with #8 above too). I think it becomes a lot of incompetence too. Too busy filling out forms instead of doing work. Don't know/don't care who's fault it is, but zero respect here. And you can't tell me that 90% of the women cops aren't just numbers and have any respect on the force. Maybe (thinking out loud here) this goes back to the whole tacticool thing. Because a 5'2" 110lb woman dealing with a 6'2" 250lb drunk man is going to go right to force where another guy (even a smaller guy) can usually reason with them. (and if not, handle the situation)
10. When things get really bad, cops are generally nowhere to be found. Reginald Denny, LA Riots, Columbine, Katrina. Maybe these are aberrations, but there are a lot of them, those are only the ones that come to mind right now. Police can't claim they have a dangerous job (yeah, like #25 on the list) and then when things get dangerous it's all about officer safety.
Just thoughts, don't know if any are true or not, but it certainly seems like, hope it leads to more discussion. (hope it leads to changes honestly, but I'll start small)
Sorry for the delay in getting back to this conversation. I had work to do on behalf of the citizens of Colorado. I want to make sure you all get your every penny's worth.
To answer your questions, I'll use your numbering system. I'm not smart enough to block them out and answer them like others can.
1. You speak on the use of tactical teams and the results if they were to bust in your door all dressed in black, yelling and waving guns. You do realize that the chances of that happening are nearly zero (I'm guessing 99.99999999999% not gonna happen, but you never want to say never). If you don't do anything in your life that would necessitate the need for that, you will never receive a visit like that, so why be so fearful of it? That's like me worrying someone's gonna drive through the front of my house. Chances are really good it's never gonna happen, so why worry about it?
1a. Yep. Fighting a losing battle on this due to the demand for the drugs. However, we shouldn't throw in the towell because people won't stop using. We shouldn't allow the fear of being caught and punishment to go away and allow even more to use, abuse, steal or commit fraud and forgery for drug money without impunity.
2. TSA is a joke. They aren't law enforcement and shouldn't be considered law enforcement. They are security guards that work for the FEDERAL governmnent. The average person should not equate them with their local municipal, county or state law enforcement officer. Doing so, really makes you ignorant of the differences in government. Need to take a civics class.
3. Border Patrol/INS (ICE). Perfect example of an agency who is underfunded, undermanned and doesn't have clear marching orders from their superiors. Also, they work for the FEDERAL government. See civics class mention above.
4. The whole illegal situation. How is that the fault of the local cops? The illegals are violating FEDERAL law by being here, not state law. The local cops can only issue tickets for driving without a license, having no insurance and all the other traffic related citations you would get. They can't make ICE do anything. The lowly cops cannot make the court system work better, make the fines stiffer or any other complaint. All they can do is, keep writing the citations that eventually will cause the state to deem that person to be a Habitual Traffic Offender, or suspend or revoke a driving privilege they don't currently have anyway, which then give the cop the power to make an arrest and book the person in jail. They then may have their prints uploaded through Secure Communities and maybe, maybe, ICE will deport. It isn't the fault of the cops.
5. You don't like the cop sitting on the roadway writing speeding tickets. In the various postings of yours, you've mentioned this a few times. Gonna guess you've gotten a few speeding tickets. You may lose respect for the cops for them doing that, but what does it do? It slows traffic down, which may be your issue. People see the patrol vehicle and they do pay attention to their driving, if for only a few minutes. We again, don't make the speed limit decisions. I personally have what you allege is terrible and bad. HOWEVER, I did it in the evening and didn't look at anyone under 20 miles over the limit and then I was fishing for drunk drivers. Found quite a few. Surprise, surprise. If you got a ticket for 5 MPH over the limit, then that officer truly had nothing to do, especially given it is hard to fight that in court when the calibration allows for a few MPH to be off.
6. Laws only apply to someone who has something to lose. That is true, I guess, given we all have our freedom of movement to lose (jail). We also have our employment, our vehicles, our license, our money, our family, our pride, our standing in the community, our reputation, etc., etc., etc. So, I'm not sure where you were going with this point.
6a. Selectively applied laws. All are required to adhere to them. I'm thinking that you mean the discretion that law enforcement has to give none, one or all tickets or enforce the speed zone uniformly or zoning uniformly. Some would argue they like this particular issue, as they've received a verbal warning on a ticket, gotten a pass on a DUI, wasn't arrested for underage drinking and turned over to their parents, etc. I guess we could write and arrest everyone uniformly.
7. DOT cops. What are DOT cops? I'll make the assumption you mean the Colorado State Patrol as being the Department of Transportation cops. Let me know if I am wrong. CSP's mission is traffic enforcement and safety on the highways. For the most part, that is it. They also handle the traffic accidents in unincorporated areas of the state. I'm not sure what question you asked of the 3 "DOT cops" that you got three different answers to, but the Colorado Revised Statutes are online and printed, and they are the laws, in black and white. Not much in the way of interpretation with them.
8. Thin blue line. I guess you are referring to Denver PD and the latest video's of their officers doing dumb things and their Police Protective Association (PPA) defending them. Can't argue that one. Personally, Denver PD needs to be brought into the 2010's with their policing, but until they get out of their court mandated hiring practices, require a stricter hiring standard, loose their institutional practices of not allowing the chief or higher leadership to fire someone, then Denver will always be "out there", and not the norm of law enforcement. When I was a patrol officer, I would give a pass on a speeding ticket to an officer, but I would also do so for the general citizen as well. DUI? Nope. I arrested them. I've arrested cops all my career and I'm not going to stop, if they do something stupid.
9. Women cops. You obviously have an issue with them. I've worked with a number of females over the years and they are just like their male counterparts; some are good and some are bad and should find another line of work. I won't deny that a good majority of female officers I've met in my career have some issue that drove them to law enforcement; daddy issues, power issues, control issues, etc. Some, however, didn't have these things and were similar to their male counterparts in their desire to serve their fellow citizens. Although, I'm not sure if everyone agrees with your assessment that they kill the respect of the cops. It does sound like it may be your personal issue. I would say that the ones I've respected over the years were able to handle most situations themselves without assistance and excelled in some situations were a calming voice is needed instead of testosterone. Also, children tend to want to talk to a female officer over a male officer and female rape victims tend to want to as well. It isn't 'tacticool'; its common sense. The size difference you mention doesn solely pertain to female officers; I used to work with a male officer who was 5'6" and 125 lbs. He used his Taser at least 4-5 times a year in confrontations with much larger males while I, at 6'0" and 205 lbs, use my size and officer presence in confrontations. It sits well with the courts for him to show the size difference and the need to utilize a tool to obtain compliance; I, on the other hand, would have a lawsuit on my hands as the court would ask why the need for the tool, given my size to the offenders's size. That's life.
10. Cops are wherever there is an issue. We just happen to be a minority. You talk about the L.A. riots. How many people live in L.A.; how many in the area affected? There are only 10,000 cops to the population of 3.8 million. Much less cops here. You mention Columbine. There was a School Resource Officer who traded shots with one of the assailants before he ran into the school. At the time, the standard doctrine was to surround (contain) and call in SWAT. Since Columbine, the doctrine had changed and now first responding officers are trained to go in after the suspect. Events cause change. All events are reactive; laws, doctrine changes, military, foreign policy, etc. You want to challenge the job of a cop being dangerous. I've personally haven't thought of it being overly dangerous, but it is one of the only jobs where someone intending to do harm has the upper hand. I make a traffic stop in a patrol vehicle in full uniform, people know what I am. I have no clue as to the person in the other vehicle, what they might have just done, what their state of mind is, what fears they have. I am at a disadvantage. Dangerous? Maybe some days.
And for Mountain Man:
11. In my nearly 20 years of being a cop, I have never been to a class or a school that taught me how to lie. That being said, I'm allowed to lie to suspects and there is a number of case law appeals that allow me that. I do lie to suspect's in interviews and while I'm working undercover drug cases. However, I never lie on the stand, in my reports, to a judge or to my supervisors. See today's Denver Post about the Aurora Dective who lied to the judge and what happened to him. You lie in any of these situations and it is no different than any other type of work, you get fired. The cardinal rule I always taught my trainee's when I trained officers was, to never lie. You wreck a car, tell the truth. You'll get a couple of days off, but you won't be fired. You hit a suspect, tell the truth. Same thing. You'll be disciplined, but probably not fired. You lie, you always get fired.
Hope these answer some of your thoughts and questions. Always willing to further the conversation.
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